Wow...one thing after another. Friend told me H ran into someone that didn't know about us and the person asked about me. H said that "we're not together anymore". My friend said he stated it quite confidently.

Is this NORMAL? Do they appear confident? Sometimes yes, sometimes no???

How is it that he tells very few people at work?

He walks around with his head up high, my friend says. So should I, she says.

Yeah, right.

Terri,
This doesn't sound like a new change, isn't this what & how he's been telling people (friends & relatives) since early spring?

You've set your course with Plan A. Your H can say anything he wishes. Your H's behavior is within normal for a WS. There was awhile my H was telling people we were getting divorced--long before I served the D papers and he never made a move for divorce. At times, it is a way to shut down questions, most acquaintances won't ask why you aren't together, and your friends probably know.

Don't worry about what he is or isn't doing, plan your own actions, control your own behaviors.

Hi Lor, Yes, you're right. Just hurts when I hear it from close friend that he's so "okay" with it all. Just keep reminding me that it's normal behaviour.

Can't sleep. I'm really not okay right now.

Somehow, I must get through this but I'm out of willpower.

He's gone, Lor...and most likely with the OW.

I did control my tears and my sadness when he dropped off D tonight. Wished him well. No anger. Nothing.

He seemed angry. Took his golf bag but is really going golfing? Promised myself that I wouldn't talk to him at all for the entire time he's going unless it's an emergency. Good idea?

Just let him talk to D whenever he calls? I need to leave him alone in whatever he's doing or wherever he's going, right?

Thanks Lor.

Terri,
You probably get tired of me saying these sort of things.

But I do relate, even if I didn't go through exactly the same thing. In our separations 3 & 4 H left me right before going to California for 2 different 2 week schools. The reconciliation before separation #3 was 3 1/2 months long, we'd even tentatively planned that I'd fly to CA for the middle weekend and we'd tour Napa. Then he told me he didn't want me to come. Then he left me. I've never known if she joined him for either time, I know he did go to Napa both times. I don't think she did now, but I do know they were back in contact at that point and he was calling her while he was gone because he, of course, was separated.

As I recall, when he called, I was friendly, told him how busy the girls & I had been. I didn't make an effort to stay home to receive calls. I took the girls out of town for a weekend for a school function. At least one of the times he asked me to pick him up at the airport, but both times we saw him the evening he came home.

I think you should be as composed as possible if he calls. Sound pleased, have something interesting/humorous to say about what you or daughter have done, don't ask a lot of specific questions about where/what he's doing. No crying.

You can't control anything he's doing, there isn't anything to be gained by making yourself feel sick about it.

Take a vacation from the worry, ok?

Lor, I don't get tired at all...

I'm bad again today. Really bad. I found out he may have started talking to the OW BEFORE our D was as opposed to after...oh my God...I don't know the truth anymore.

Do you think anti-d's help the pain?

Lor, I don't get tired at all...

I'm bad again today. Really bad. I found out he may have started talking to the OW BEFORE our D was as opposed to after...oh my God...I don't know the truth anymore.

Do you think anti-d's help the pain?

Sorry about the double post...system seems to take longer to post sometimes.

One more thing...a few things that H has said...

"Talk to my mother. Tell her that we'll be civil about raising D. That's what she's worried about..."

I left H a message regarding forgiveness. He responded, "I know you care about me. Just understand it was never the kind of love I wanted or that was enough for me."

"The only reason I'm at the house is because of D and because I have nowhere else to go."

Terri,
Regarding timelines, I kind of accept that I won't know everything, don't know all the parameters...I know my H was on a pool team with the FOW 2 autumns before the PA, the EA no doubt has roots there, which makes the whole relationship/A about 4 years long.

My H once told me, "I was an (he used a MB inappropriate word), I cheated on you, I lied, what more do you need to know." In some ways, though I do know much more than that, he was exactly right. Those were the issues I needed to deal with, not the details of the issues...that in my opinion lead to worse & more triggers.

But that doesn't change what my behavior as someone who wants to make her marriage work. Seeing the FOW at a party this last weekend, (hating her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) doesn't change what my behavior toward my H should be.

You know the situation, you have your marching orders--Plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And, though I was in as much pain during the time I was on anti-deps as any other, it did help me think more clearly. I could control my impulsive, anxious behavior better.

Thanks Lor. The "length" thing bothers me but I guess even though we all think our situation is unique, it's really not.

Again, it's what saves me. Hearing someone else say, "been there, done that". Not that it secures my outcome but it definitely makes things easier to bear in the present.

Lor, despite everything, did you always believe he loved you? Even though he told you he didn't? Even though people believed he didn't and told you so?

((((((((( Terrified ))))))))))

I so badly want to tell you something... ANYTHING, that will help make your pain go away. But I can't, and that saddens me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The best that I can come up with is that I went through many of the same emotions as you, during my separation from my H. I want to try and convey to you just how much you can heal once you start taking care of yourself more. It is so important that you do more for you. You know that.

I remember how picky and choosey (sp?) my H was with what he told people during our separation. Most people thought he was having the time of his life. He saved many of his problems for me to listen to, b/c he didn't want anyone else to know just how miserable he really was with the everyday humdrum of life that DIDN'T go away when I kicked him out of the house. Apparently he told 'buddy guy friend' that he missed me so... much... but he also "forgot" to mention to him how he was sleeping around with 3 women at the time!!! Just as our kids can be selective hearers most of the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I think our WS's are extremely selective talkers too. Think about it: the people he tells he's 'happy' to, are ones that both of you know well. How much do you want to bet that there are some folks out there who don't really know you, that have heard about how much he misses you? It's stupid (IMO), but he doesn't want YOU to know he's miserable (although we all know he's doing a lousy job at covering it, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). But if you look at all of his actions in reverse babble and moosebrain worms terms... it actually makes sense that he's making no sense! Make sense to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How about taking the focus off of your H for a bit again. And tell us... what is it that you have planned for you and dd this week? (p.s. make sure it's something very special that neither of you will forget! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Karen

Terri,
Did I always believe he loved me...

Even when he said he didn't or wouldn't say he did, there were glimmers of caring, kindness, the times he came home, spent time with me. Then, all the opposite behaviors, leaving the home, lying, disappearing. Saying he loved me, wasn't in love. Loved me, couldn't live with me, didn't want to be married to me. Or didn't want the divorce, couldn't live with me. Confusing, hurtful, hopeful all at the same time.

When I served the D papers, I think I had come to the conclusion that even if he did love me, he had treated me so badly that the love, if it was really there at all, wasn't enough. Actions, not words.

I do now believe he never stopped loving me, but he wanted to, did everything in his power to make me stop loving him, put up the barriers until I felt I had to protect myself. He regrets that. Me too, but it was the way it was.

I know there is a long thread on is love enough, I haven't kept up with it, but I don't think words of love, even the feeling of love is enough if there is consistant, constant, or longterm hurtful behavior along with it.

Hundreds of hugs for you guys, okay?

I am numb today. Feel like I'm floating in and out of reality so reading makes me more stable.

He's going, with or without the OW, still believing that there is no chance of our recovery for our marriage.

I want to confess the mistakes I made today: I called him and left a voice mail letting him know that I forgive him. Sunday's homily was all about the need to forgive to better ourselves but that forgiveness isn't easy. Just because you say you forgive doesn't mean it happens overnight. It comes with reinforcement over time. So I needed for him to know that.
Well, so much for wanting him to leave on a good note. Right now, he sees all phone calls as controlling. Okay.

Mistake #2. I called him and left a voice mail regarding my need for honesty (had just found out that his encounter with the OW may have started before D's birth). No anger in any of my messages but a mistake just the same.

Mistake #3. He called my mother to arrange to go see D at lunchtime. She blew up at him telling him that we're destroying D and that we better get divorced right away. He immediately calls me. Rants and raves that we're both psychotic. I didn't lose my cool. Agreed. Hung up.

I can't control my mother's actions. Should I leave another message or not?

I don't want him to leave on a sour note. It's dangerous, isn't it? But I guess that's already happened.

I screwed up.

Topie, Thank-you so much for trying to help my pain. I just can't figure how to do more for me. It's been a year. H says the only reason OW isn't here is because of me. That I'd have a psychotic episode. H says the only reason he hasn't filed is because I'm NOT ready. He wants civility and I'm just not there yet.

I wish you were right about H missing me but I don't think so.

I do believe he is selective in what he says and who he speaks to...

Do you think I should go away with D for a few days? My mother and inlaws are going to explode...but some close friends are trying to convince me to take off. What do you think?

Lor, It's hard to continue to love despite the abusive and hurtful behaviour. He's still so ANGRY. Angry that I told his parents about the A (doesn't want them to think that the OW is the reason for our marriage breakdown), angry that I'm the reason he had the A (I didn't love him enough), etc.

But strangely enough, it's his anger that softens me in ways and reminds me of his love down deep somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong>. H says the only reason OW isn't here is because of me. That I'd have a psychotic episode. H says the only reason he hasn't filed is because I'm NOT ready. He wants civility and I'm just not there yet.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blame, blame, blame, blame, and don't forget to blame some more. I think those kinds of words by your H deserve some reverse babble. It's time to start agreeing with him. Maybe it's okay to ask him for his advice on how you should deal with all of that?

Then again... you can SHOW him by your actions too. But that would go against your plan A right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... and the last thing we want to do is get you off target from SH's advice.

Your H aside... what makes you feel good? Make a list (written or mental), and DO THOSE THINGS this week! (within reason of course... lol... I'm having some pretty expensive ideas running in my head that are just out of whack...hehehe). So yes, I think it's a great idea that you and dd go away for a few days. It would help her to get her mind off of not seeing daddy for a week or so, right? And (IMO) even better, is that you won't be around the house to answer his calls. (be sure to keep your ringer OFF on your cellphone too.).

Gotta go... kiddy hell is breaking loose upstairs (something about the twins talking to Eric, and he's upset b/c he's "pooping!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

Karen

Topie, Hope your kiddy hell is now under control.
(makes me giggle a little..)

Why do WSs think that we should be civil? Why do they think we should accept that they are no longer "in love"??

And do they all want so desperately for the OW to be looked at innocently, as if she plays no negative role? That it's the BS's fault completely?

Wow...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong>Why do WSs think that we should be civil? Why do they think we should accept that they are no longer "in love"??

And do they all want so desperately for the OW to be looked at innocently, as if she plays no negative role? That it's the BS's fault completely?

Wow...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an easy one...they want us to be civil so they can be let off the hook for the behaviour that deep down they know is wrong. And if we make them see how the OW is not the angel they want us to think then the fantasy is shattered and we're back to them doing something shameful.

{{{{{{{{{{Terri}}}}}}}}

I know how hard it is knowing your H is off having fun without you. BTDT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Your idea of taking your D and going somewhere fun for yourselves is **awesome**! And let your D tell him *all* about it when she talks to him again.

You are right about his anger being a sign he still cares for you. The opposite of love is not hatred and anger it is indifference. I would be a whole lot more concerned if he didn't give a rat's behind what you are doing. From what you have posted that does not seem to be the case. If he is telling people how much he has moved on, I think that is yet another way for him save face. He certainly wouldn't be telling them how miserable he is or how he truly wants to reconcile but can't figure out how to do it and save his pride at the same time.

Hang in there...you have come such a long way since you first started posting. Remember this is truly a rollercoaster and even now almost four years after this nightmare started for me, I still have bad moments. Don't beat yourself up because you get sad....you are entitled...just don't let that sadness overwhelm you to the point you forget to live.

best wishes and prayers...VL

Hello VL,

Nice to hear from you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know how hard it is knowing your H is off having fun without you. BTDT Your idea of taking your D and going somewhere fun for yourselves is **awesome**! And let your D tell him *all* about it when she talks to him again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think it's wrong to take my D without H's permission? Some of my friends have said he's left without letting anyone know how he can be contacted so the ball is in my court...right?

And the thought of him being away possibly having fun with OW is petrifying...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right about his anger being a sign he still cares for you. The opposite of love is not hatred and anger it is indifference. I would be a whole lot more concerned if he didn't give a rat's behind what you are doing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VL, He's angry but he doesn't care about what I'm doing or where I'm going. He does care that I haven't done the laundy or haven't planted right, haven't ironed everything, talk on the phone too much, etc...but that this qualify?

Thanks again for checking in.

T -- I am having trouble posting.

I'm not a big believer in long term Plan A. I think Plan A is only worth doing if you do it well -- and for a short time, then move on to gain respect back from WS.

Plan A is supposed to be about improving yourself and making changes. So what's your Plan A about?

And its crucial to remove LB's. And in your case I see more than ever. I don't think you are in the right frame of mind to be in Plan A anymore.

And I can't fathom why Steve Harley would encourage it given the amount of emotional abuse your H spews at you.

As for your questions -- your H is envisioning this happy little world where you move on nicely -- while he makes plans to bring OW into the picture - and of course he wants everyone to be "nice" to her - so would you mind not telling his family? Because they may make things unpleasant in their happy little world. Its not HER fault. Its all YOUR fault. So why don't you just be nice about it? Oh....you're upset? Well see? Thats why it could never ever work! Because YOU are soooo unreasonable!!!

Thats where his head is at.

And every LB you do reinforces why he HAS to be out of this relationship.

So my personal opinion is that Plan A is too risky for you when you can't eliminate all LBs.

So I will get my anti-steve-harley attitude off your post!

T -- I am so sorry for your pain....you know I care!

Hello Lexxxy,

Very good to hear from you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not a big believer in long term Plan A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve H. did tell me that I have to focus on minimizing/eliminating LB's. He did mention that my self-control is critical in continuing Plan A.

I called him yesterday morning too many times. Yes. But after that, I haven't tried to contact him AT ALL. Nothing. He was angry Lex. I wasn't in any of my exchanges.

He's gone Lex. It hurts like hell. Isn't some LB'ing only human?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because they may make things unpleasant in their happy little world. Its not HER fault. Its all YOUR fault. So why don't you just be nice about it? Oh....you're upset? Well see? Thats why it could never ever work! Because YOU are soooo unreasonable!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You seem to know his mind so well.

One thing I know Lex, is that I need to Plan A with more strength and confidence about myself.

I sank back into dwelling on him and his actions. Perhaps his departure into ? is a good thing for all of us.

Plan A is supposed to be about improving yourself and making changes. So what's your Plan A about?

And its crucial to remove LB's. And in your case I see more than ever. I don't think you are in the right frame of mind to be in Plan A anymore.

And I can't fathom why Steve Harley would encourage it given the amount of emotional abuse your H spews at you.

As for your questions -- your H is envisioning this happy little world where you move on nicely -- while he makes plans to bring OW into the picture - and of course he wants everyone to be "nice" to her - so would you mind not telling his family? Because they may make things unpleasant in their happy little world. Its not HER fault. Its all YOUR fault. So why don't you just be nice about it? Oh....you're upset? Well see? Thats why it could never ever work! Because YOU are soooo unreasonable!!!

Thats where his head is at.

And every LB you do reinforces why he HAS to be out of this relationship.

So my personal opinion is that Plan A is too risky for you when you can't eliminate all LBs.

So I will get my anti-steve-harley attitude off your post!

T -- I am so sorry for your pain....you know I care!

Terrified,
I hope this finds you well,,, better...

I wanted to encourage you to take advantage of his being out of town....
You can drive yourself crazy in circles or you can look at this as a challenge of rediscovering yourself...

I think you are neglecting the part of plan A that is about YOU>....You are so wrapped up in everything and anything he says or does...and know terrified this is not an attack...but a plea for you to remember you are not responsible for his feelings and actions....and clinging to everything someone who is so deep into denial and taking it as gospel will just make your head spin....

Who's gone terrified?...your husband from way back when hasn't been around for a while...this guy who is gone is angry denial guy who can't do ANYTHING but blame you and spew its over but does nothing else about ANYTHING.....

Enjoy your freedom...take time to enjoy the pressure being off you....this man has yet to face one iota of his responsibility in anything...really experience this time has believing in you....strengthen your resolve to not get sucked into anything he says....that will help avoid his LB...all he knows how say is it's over...it's all your fault...blah blah blah...

Terrified focus on you and want you deserve and desire...you can't change him....only you....

Perhaps just perhaps he really will use this time to think about things...and really reflect on things...and come to a place where he can see two people in a relationship that got off track...and become adult enough to start to deal with issues regardless of his or your "agenda"...and atleast begin to be an adult about this.

There is a lot of irony here...he was unhappy when you were in limited contact...he is unhappy when you re-open access and channels...he is just one unhappy guy...I'd be happy that is being unhappy somewhere else if I were you....

And most importantly we are not giving up on you or even him...you can do this...and he at some time will have to quit running and face his own demons....

But you must tread lightly not to get sucked into his unhappy universe..and strengthen your resolve that you are worthy of respect and love. Take everything he says with a grain of salt...use this time wisely and well and he will be back before you are even ready or perhaps want him to be back....rest from the constant chaos and seek peace and value from you.
ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong>Do you think it's wrong to take my D without H's permission? Some of my friends have said he's left without letting anyone know how he can be contacted so the ball is in my court...right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I am not a parent (unless you count dog children <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) so my first inclination would be to say something like, 'well...this opportunity to take my D to X came up and I didn't have a way to contact you, H, so I used my best judgement and we went and had a blast!' Other parents may disagree with me on that but even if you decide not to go anywhere, do something really fun with your daughter in your town. Just something that you can get your mind off what he is doing and use this time to regroup and relax without him yelling at you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the thought of him being away possibly having fun with OW is petrifying...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Terri}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VL, He's angry but he doesn't care about what I'm doing or where I'm going. He does care that I haven't done the laundy or haven't planted right, haven't ironed everything, talk on the phone too much, etc...but that this qualify? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm...sounds controlling but it also sounds like, to me at least, a way for him to stay involved in your life. This is not a time he is going to be saying what a wonderful person, wife and mother you are because he has to convince himself that you are the problem he is trying to leave behind. Its pretty textbook stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Don't buy into what he is dishing out.

ark has given you some great advice...this is about him...you just have to weather the storm as painful as it is. As much as I would love to turn back the clock and have this whole mess never happen it has made me become a stronger person who doesn't take any doodie from him anymore. I have learned things about myself I never would have imagined I was capable of...forgiveness on this scale being one of them. I see that happening for you T, I really do.

Y'all go do something fun and celebrate your freedom!