J.R replied on one of my posts with this comment. It really got me thinking about some things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC posted a great excerpt from Private Lies recently, wish I could recall the thread... talks about how future R's for infidels are so often doomed unless they do the "hard work" of repairing themselves... and that means getting real, real honest about what's happened. The crazy thing is... IF THEY DO THAT... they'll hit that "wall" / "rock bottom" that shakes them to their core. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That got me to thinking. A lot of times I am slow to comprehend. I think that is a lot to do with the mental stress that we as BS’s are under. So…I wanted to sort of put things in a perspective that I can understand, and hope that maybe someone else can get a picture in “layman’s” terms.

Dr. Harley tells us that no one can provide 100% of their spouse’s EN’s, 100% of the time. So…I guess that the figure is a variable one somewhere in between. Anywhere from 10% of the EN’s , 10% of the time (poor marriage) to around 80 or 90% (don’t we wish).

Which brings me to the points I’m trying to make.

Looking at mine and the WW’s situation, for the sake of argument let’s say that I was doing a 50/70, and the OM was doing a 30/20. The WW is then being “satisfied” a total of 80% of the time – 90% of her EN being met. What a happy dilemma!

Now, after being accustomed to that, I think that is the standard that she will always try to achieve a feeling with. Ain’t gonna happen. Sure, that is the philosophy that we agree on as to “forcing” the OM to meet all the needs, and she soon finds out he can’t. Some have said to me “But…OM got OMW pregnant. That’s the cause of their breakup”. I say bullhockey. OM already had a child, what’s another? The problem is the fact that I was providing the security and commitment. OM NEVER provided that. How could he? He was at home with his BS. He was NEVER offering security and commitment to my WW. But…take me out of the equation, and now he HAS to. Undoubtedly, that was a big EN of my WW, or she would not have stayed in the M for over 2 years. So my deduction is that the pregnancy, per se, never had a thing to do with it. The problem was that my WW saw that it was obvious that OM could NOT completely commit himself to WW. The pregnancy just verified that to my WW. Hence, the failure.

I was one of the ones who tried to “measure” myself up to OM. I think probably that most BS’s do that. I kept asking myself…WHAT does he have that I don’t? I asked myself that many times in my own insecurity. It finally dawned on me. Nothing. OM wasn’t making her happier than me. BOTH of us COMBINED provided her with what she deemed to be “happy”. When the pressure was put on him, he failed just as miserably as I.

So, to maybe help some of those that I have seen on other posts asking if it was truly possible for the WS to be “in love” with the OP, I say to you that is a moot point. The WS cannot truly answer that. That has absolutely NO bearing on the relationship. At least not in my case. My WW, I think, will always try to measure up her next relationships to the fulfillment of having TWO people filling her needs. I started to think about this because after a 14 year marriage with me, she has went from me, to OM AND me over the past 2 years. She just KNEW she was “in love” with OM. He’s been gone just a month, now, and she’s already looking for something to fill that void. So…was she REALLY in love with OM? Must not have been. She still is looking for that “feeling”.

She will eventually learn that she will never find that person. No ONE person is capable of that. I just wonder how long she will look for that “someone”. We, who have tried to make ourselves better people through all of this, realize that. We have learned that, and accepted that. That is one of the things that further reiterate the concept of “Love is a choice”. We learn that our partner will NEVER be perfect, and can NEVER provide us with the same fulfillment that TWO people can. But…we choose to honor our vows, and our partners, and make the absolute best of what we have, and we will do a damn good job at it.

We will be able to do it so well with what we have learned, that we will be happier with the “one” relationship that we decide to nourish, and will make it greater, in our own minds, than those poor lost souls who need TWO to make it work.

Now…who is the wiser and better?

Reminds me of the saying “ I have done so much, with so little, for so long, that I am now convinced that I can do ANYTHING, with absolutely NOTHING, FOREVER”.

And you know what? We WILL be happy with just that! We, in short, have not failed our WS’s. They have just demanded somethings, that will never be. WE know the difference. Don’t we…….

HCII

Hi My Brother Boo!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your analysis makes so much sense to me that I think that "WS" should no longer stand for Wayward Spouse but...."Wayward Soul".

Love Ya

committed (you know my alias <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hi My Brother Boo!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boo? Boo who???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nahhhhh...I did enough of that already.

Enough for TWO lifetimes.

Thanks, Susie. OOPS!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

HCII

HCII,

Yes, yes. Been there, experienced that. Sadly, I struggle with my WW continuing to insist that all that matters in a M or R is "attraction" and that I will NEVER have that for her. Fine, but what happens when reality intervenes? When OM could never ALSO provide a good lifestyle, family commitment, accomodation to her quirks (even demands!), personal health, etc.? Can you say "train wreck"? It's another way of stating the CAKE principle and how Plan B at least takes it away.

M2K2

mark2002 wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, yes. Been there, experienced that. Sadly, I struggle with my WW continuing to insist that all that matters in a M or R is "attraction" and that I will NEVER have that for her. Fine, but what happens when reality intervenes? When OM could never ALSO provide a good lifestyle, family commitment, accomodation to her quirks (even demands!), personal health, etc.? Can you say "train wreck"? It's another way of stating the CAKE principle and how Plan B at least takes it away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya Mark. One of the comments that my WW made to me along with the other ones that cut deep was that she, too, no longer felt attracted to me. That hurt almost as bad as the one where she told me that she felt like she was "cheating on him, more than cheating on me".

Then I realized something. My WW, undoubtedly, is attracted to men with no values and morals. Men who will risk destroying the lives of 4-year old children they are the father of. Men who absolutely have NO respect for other men. The same men that would not want someone cheating with THEIR wives all the while THEY are cheating with yours.

Yes...my WW is attracted to 2-faced liars, cheaters, and indecent men. The fact that she is not attracted to me is a compliment! Simply because I will NEVER be that type of man. So I guess she will never be attracted to me...

But, really, I think she will later in life.

She just don't know it yet.

HCII

Yep, you'll be the one who got away and when she comes to realize it, you will have moved on and it will be too late... It sounds like your WS is just immature... Loved your post. And that quote was the best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I agree that it IS a compliment that you don't fit her "taste" anymore, if you can even call it that!?!? Hmmm.... sounds like you have raised your standards while she has done the exact opposite...

To hcii -

Your message is excellent and I believe hits at the core of the matter. Many hurting people here would be wise to evaluate their own situation in light of your perspective.
I believe the key to joy/happiness in life is doing what is right. And what is right? Obeying God. It never fails.
I look at my XW and the OM she married and can only feel sorry for them. I would not want to be either one of them.

hcii,

I think your W and mine might be long lost sisters! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The first OM she had was married with small kids, and she slept again with him after knowing this! All her b/f's in college used her for sex and then dumped her. Now that she has me (moral, christian, sweet and nice) she can't deal with it. She must like that naughtiness in the R b/c that's who she always is attracted to. Can't change that in her, only she can.

Your post made me think.

NK

HCII,

Yes, lying seems to be the M.O. of these OM's and yet another reason why so many marriages/ R's borne of an affair crash and burn. In my situation, OM had a fiance for several years yet that did not prevent him from having occasional lunchdates with my W (when seeds of A were being sown) and probably others, I'm sure. And then WW apparently lied to him about her state-of-mind, to the point that he actually proposes marriage to her (and reinforces that point in front of me, in my house, by the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), while WW is still eating cake with me in the picture. And get this, he kept his so-called "ex-fiance" in the picture the whole time!

M2K2

Dup post.

<small>[ September 19, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: mark2002 ]</small>

Wow! I've been quoted!

I picked up "Private Lies", and it's a great book, by the way.

Here's a couple of relevant quotes:

"A third problem with marriage is romance, which seduces people into expecting too much. Romance is wonderful and smells like a new car and fades about as fast and has nothing to do with real life. Most people of marriageable age have not learned the difference between love and romance. Some never do."

"In-love is, of course, a form of temporary insanity."

"When the romantic excitement fades and the poetry becomes prosaic, or the inappropriateness becomes impractical, someone feels cheated or misled. Suddenly the magic is gone, and with no magic, the lights go on and all is revealed."

"Those who need the constant stimulation of hot romance appear to be dangerously psychopathic, but they seem to have a certain appeal and have no difficulty finding partners to keep life in a continual cyclical uproar. Marriage cannot provide a constant state of romance, and people who are addicted to romance cannot maintain a marriage. But everyone who marries doesn't know that. And some don't learn it after many marriages."

Okay, I don't want to give it all away - great stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow! I've been quoted! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey J.R.,

I feel that when people such as you and I have paid the price for someone else's confusion, we have earned the right to be quoted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I truly believe that my WW will always try to compare her future R's with what she got with two men. One partner will never be that good, I don't think.

Then, in the future, she will have to come to terms with the fact that she is going to have to be somewhat satisfied that she can't have it all. That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for a perfect R, but we have to be realistic and realize that our mate is not perfect. There will be some things in the R that just not going to be easily achievable.

Now that I am on this subject, I can remember back in a conversation that we had, after I had been working some pretty long hours, about her being hard to satisfy. I had remarked, and she had agreed, that she really had an EN for the money, but that she wished that we didn't have to work for it (Don't we all). In other words, she desired financial security, but didn't want me working like I did. Hey...I couldn't give her both. She wanted financial security, I had to work. If she wanted the ability to "splurge" a little more, then I had to work a little more.

Basically what happened in my marriage was that I did the above, worked so she could enjoy the unnecessary luxuries in life, but wasn't home with her like she wanted me to be. She filled that void elsewhere. Now, she says that it wasn't about the money. Sure, she can say that, 'cause she never had to pinch the first penny. She's always had ANYTHING she wanted.

Bottom line was I couldn't give her both. Even though I think she understood that, she never ACCEPTED that. I couldn't win. Something I am proud of, but probably shouldn't make a big deal of, is the fact in 14 years I never, not once, questioned anything she spent. As long as our financial obligations were met, she was free to do with the rest as she saw fit. That's me. That's the way I'll be in my next R.

I honestly feel deep in my heart that she is going to be hard pressed to find someone that will allow her the freedom that I did. I lived the entire 14 years for her. Everyone, even her closest friends and family have told her that was obvious.

My point being that in the future she is going to have to realize that she will have to compromise certain things in life, and in her R's. When she realizes that, I think she will look back and see that she is EXACTLY where she was with me, only she will be with someone else. She will find that by leaving our M, that she gained nothing. That is the "rock-bottom" that we read about; Realizing that all the sorrow and turmoil that was generated from her A and subsequent Dv was for nothing.

A lot of lives wrecked and she didn't get a darn thing out of it. That's gonna be reality.

I may just have to buy the book. Seems from the quotes that it would be very interesting.

HCII

It is also very likely that a WS is going to be in a R where the next S will cheat on her/him. I say this because the sad statistics are very much stacked against having a S that won't cheat and because of the WS's total ignorance of relational dynamics.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong>........Now…who is the wiser and better?

HCII</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You had a long and very thoughtful post. I appreciated it. After all is said and done, who is the wiser?

May it be the one who can move forward with their lives still in tact.

In your post you showed that the WS is getting her needs met by multiple parties. That is a sign of cake eating/walking...... There was a good article on that last year. Take a look at Redhat's enabling the A thread. You may find more similarities. When I realized the Ws was in effect using me (paying his bills, worrying about him, etc.) with no regard for meeting my needs (I had a big need for him NOT to be with OW - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , then it became clear NOT to meet his needs. When I gave him his responsbilities, he did not like it. Why he didn't like living with himself!!! Well that was no longer my problem, in fact I felt better (plan B).

So as to who is the wiser? I am I will not allow the WS or anyone else to do that again. Nope, I have grown into a better and maybe a bit wiser person. Wanna see the gray hairs!?!?!? LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...........

take care,
L.

hcii - congrats on sorting out these thoughts.

Yes, you ARE a better person than OM. It's tempting to compare ourselves to them, and a natural competitive urge, especially for men, but the comparison should be short and sweet. No contest, assuming the BS wasn't a real abuser or other deviant.

Along these lines, the nicest compliment my XW has paid to me occured early in her affair. She said, "You and <OM> are very different."

I recommend we keep in mind that very often, if not almost always, it seems the WS is not running TO OP as much as he/she is running FROM something else, or a combination of things. Certainly was true in my case and in cases where some life crisis had upset the equilibrium. The OP just happens to be the closest drug of choice to satisfy whatever "fix" is needed by the WS. An escape pod. A "sure thing" and "easy pickins'" that will be acquired, used, and eventually discarded when no longer needed.

Again, along these lines, the greatest insult a BS may be able to give a WS is, "How does it feel being the 'any port in a storm'?"

Wayward Spouse, wayward soul, whatever.

Maybe it's time to review - once again - the word origin of "wayward":

way - the route or path to someplace

ward - loonie bin

J.R.,

Unfortunately all your quotes really hit home for me. Those words from that book describe my WW to the tee. I'm gonna have to pick up a copy of that one.

-NK