This has been on my mind quite a bit lately...whether eventually the WS really gets the part about how having an A FURTHER damaged the R while it was going on, whether the deception, lies and forced secrecy and reserve they had to have reduced intimacy even further than it was before the A, whether they ever realize the many, many times the BS tripped over that huge, invisible elephant in the middle of the floor without ever knowing what it was and without ever having been able to figure out WHAT in the world he/she was tripping on...do they? Do they ever really get this part?

Not a pressing issue, just one of those recurring thoughts that clouds my mind from other, more productive endeavors...and one I'm sure many would benefit from heasring answers to. Thanks for the comments!

I think it depends on the person and what stage of recovery/self-examination they are in. I would guess that there are those who never 'get it' and there are those who, at some point, finally have the "Oh, I get it now" epiphany. Then again, can a WS ever really understand what the BS has gone through unless they experience it themself? The WS can certainly feel sympathy for the BS. In the final analysis I'm going to say that some WS finally 'get it' once they realize that the M is no longer what it was, they can never go back and the trust they had is gone. Then maybe they realize what has happened....

I have thought about this too. Also the fact that if my H was putting as much effort into our R as he was with the OW, how much of a difference would it have made in our R. If he had treated me the way I'm sure he was treating her, instead of pulling away, our R would have surely improved. But instead he pulls away which as you said makes you trip over that elephant in order to further justify what they are doing. Will they ever get it? I don't know. Probably not. I don't think you can truly "GET" something till you've lived it. Just like we BS's don't "GET" what they are doing. We understand to a point, probably more than they understand what is happening to them, but I certainly will never "GET" it.

I personally just want to "GET" over it.

Sharon

hi SPACEMAN,
no I dun think WS will ever get it until you have been thru it yourself. Being dumped/rejected I mean, whatever u may call it these days.

But I believe "separation/rejection/...etc" in a marriage is different from that of a normal relationship, because of the vows that copmes with it.

I have not experience that(being dumped,rejected) b4 my marriage fell apart.(Yea, my WW left me) But I do know that being the dumpee hurts just as well, if not as bad as the other party. It was funny why I cried when I called for a separation over the phone with my previous GF, it was scary, I realised now it was a baggage I need to face.

B4 my xW left I have heard about being dumped, about broken heart, about this and that, but only in theory. Little do I know it is so so very hurtful, and yes I do feel heartache. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A very very new experience... awaken if u know what I mean. Sorry for being long winded. Take care BS all over the world. I feel for you... finally.

Yes Space, they do - at least my formerly WS does.

We had this discussion just last week. He said that our marriage had gotten so bad that when OW happened along, he thought it was just serendipity. I replied: "You always swore up and down that there was NO one else in your life that was interfering with our relationship, but she WAS." His response: "With what I knew then about marriage, I really believed that. Now I see how it made things worse and how she was simply salivating in the wings - she wasn't the beautiful wonderful friend and woman I thought she was. Now I know that serendipity doesn't necessarily mean its right or good."

I have a close friend who toyed with having an affair for some months just as my husband and I went into recovery. Now THAT was serendipity. Because he and I often discussed her situation at length - giving us a way to talk about infidelity without it being about us.

My friend and I talked at length about her attraction to her boss, and the deterioriation of her marriage. I explained the MB concepts to her repeatedly - and put alot of emphasis on how her attraction was hurting her marriage. My husband often heard my end of the conversation (on the phone) and then had his own thoughts later in private with me.

We both witnessed first hand as her marriage improved dramatically when she made the choice NOT to go down the affair path, and to love her husband. She changed jobs, start loving her husband, and I'll never forget the day she called me up and said: "BR, you were RIGHT, this works! My husband is MUCH more attractive now and we are getting along so much better!"

So my husband got educated not just through our experience, but also through the friends I have that call me for marriage support. He gets it, and so does my nearly WS friend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Does that help?

ditto Rosie, although I don't have direct experience.

I believe that almost all of the former WSs who post here "get it." (The only ones who don't are those few still harboring some denial.) We are extremely fortunate to have these folks among us. As I've written before, this forum would not sustain itself without them, IMHO.

Does this mean they understand exactly what their BSs went through? Of course not. Similarly, we BSs cannot understand exactly what they went through - enticed and deluded with their reasoning subverted to the degree of denying their core values. How can we?

Thanks everyone. Yes, BR, that helps; and it's exactly what I was talking about, not that they get what I felt/feel, but that they get how the A interfered even further with the M.

I hope an "accidental" education like that will happen in my case!

Space,

I've thought about this often. I read a post on another board where someone talked about the term "cognitive dissonance". I looked it up on the internet and basically it is defined that when a person is doing something that goes against their belief system/core values, they change those beliefs/values to justify their actions, thus denying the truth and the pain associated with it.

For example: A person smokes and knows that smoking can cause cancer. They justify smoking by saying that it helps relieve stress, modifying their beliefs so that stress is the greater of two evils. Obviously cancer is the greater evil, but by modifying their beliefs they can justify why they smoke. How do they deal with the stress caused when they get cancer? There's the rub.

Maybe not the best analogy, but if you substitute the words unhappiness for stress, an affair for smoking and divorce for cancer, you can see my point. If a person is unhappy (in their marriage, with themself or life in general), chooses to have an affair rather than deal with the root causes of their unhappiness which leads to divorce, at some point they will have to deal the end result of it all. The stress (unhappiness) is still there, only intensified by their actions (smoking/having an affair) and now they must face the fallout (cancer/divorce). On the other hand, a person can deal with their stress or unhappiness without smoking or having an affair AND still get cancer or divorced, but at least they will know they did everything they could to prevent it.

sad dad

<small>[ September 21, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

Call me obsessed, call me whatever you like, but I think that one day (wish I knew when!) my wife will have to understand just what it is that happened to us when she chose to have an affair rather than trying to find a way to “fix” whatever it was she considered broken in our M. I’m just as guilty; no question. I didn’t even REALIZE things were wrong until much, much later.

But I HAVE been introspecting and self-analyzing and trying to discover and change those things about me which contributed to the A, the secrecy, and everything else that is wrong with us and with me.

I have a very hard time dealing with the fact that she feels that the affair was amply justified,, that it is MY fault, and that she is simply exercising her right to be happy in any way that she pleases. I presume SOME of this may have started disappearing from her mind by now, but if it has, she hasn’t talked to me about it…so I’m going by where she was the last time I knew.

One of the things that has always intrigued me has been to find out the “type” of affair my wife had. I presume that knowing the “Type” one can more easily take it apart, find the root causes, what the “treatment” might be (from a psychological perspective) and all that. And up to now, I hadn’t found a description that I could say “That’s it!” to.

You know where I’m headed, right? Yes. I found it! It’s in a book called <strong>“Husbands and Wives; Exploding Marital Myths, Deepening Love and Desire” by Dr. Melvyn Kinder and Dr. Connell Cowan</strong> (UCLA Clinical Psychologist, and Univ. of Houston Clinical Psychologist. They have also authored another book; “Smart Women/Foolish Choices”)

Let me preface that description with an excerpt from the chapter “Affairs: Falling into temptation” entitled “Why Affairs?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> “From our work with troubled couples, we are convinced that affairs today reflect attempts on the part of men and women to realize and satisfy, consciously or unconsciously, all those impossible expectations that are missing or thwarted in the marriage. Affairs are perhaps the most self-defeating manifestation of an Other-Directed marriage. They are foolish attempts to find external solutions to what are internal concerns-problems of self-worth and self-respect. It is as if the one who strays decides, ‘If I can’t find what I so desperately want in my marriage, I’ll look elsewhere-but I refuse to give up my wishes and fantasies.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
To us, (the educated spouse be it WS or BS), this seems completely logical, and perhaps even redundant at this stage of the “affairs learning process”. But here’s the question; does the WS realize this AT ALL? I’m not sure. In fact, I know my wife doesn’t yet realize this fully. And that troubles me, because as we well know, before one can make changes in one’s life, one must first acknowledge that there IS a problem. After that, it takes an understanding of the problem so that a solution may be searched for, found, and put into practice. Thus my grave concern. If my wife does not yet even acknowledge this very simple and eloquent description of what an affair is, how far is she from acknowledging that there IS a problem, and how far from WHAT the problem is…finding the solution and implementing it seems to be far off in a galaxy far, far away.

With that heart-warming thought, we go to another excerpt:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> “One train of thought goes something like this: ‘I love you and I want to make our marriage work, But something’s wrong. I’m hurt, I’m angry, and nothing I can see is going to change. If you loved me as much as I thought you did, I wouldn’t be feeling this way. What can I do? I’ve tried talking, explaining, and ‘if you’ll do this, I’ll do that.’ How am I going to get what I need? I don’t think I necessarily want to leave, but…maybe someone else could help make me happy.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Clearly, not only is the affairee feeling fully justified in his/her “right” to find happiness no matter where or with whom, but to make matters worse, he/she blames the spouse for it! So this even further proves the previous point. They just don’t see it as a problem at all, and if they do, is was “caused” by the other spouse! Ouch!!!

Among all of the different “types” of affairs the authors describe, perhaps this one is as close to my situation as one can be. Or as close as I’ve yet found. It’s called <strong>“The Need for a Double Life”</strong> from the same chapter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>“We have all heard of affairs going on for years. The great romance of Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn comes to mind. Rather than calling such an arrangement an “affair”, it is much more accurate to characterize the participants as having a “double life.” Those involvements typically arise from a marriage that has strong ties holding it together. We’re not suggesting that the ties are necessarily positive ones, but they are binding. For some, these ties are religious. For others, there may be a seriously ill husband of wife who cannot be abandoned. And, more commonly, there are those marriages in which the family life is so rich and meaningful that neither husband nor the wife can contemplate leaving the marriage, at least until the children are grown. Even after the children leave, people often remain together “for the children’s sake” or because they are afraid of their friends’ response if they decide to dissolve the marriage.”

“In many ways, this type of affair, if unknown to the spouse, may represent the most deceptive and hypocritical relationship of all. Try to picture yourself with another wife or husband you see two or three time a week. And this goes on for years. How do you do it? How can you share your thoughts about your children, your work, and so on, when you have to do the same thing at home? Well, it’s obvious what happens: sharing of feelings and thoughts with the mate at home becomes superficial or even nonexistent, as though that person were merely a figure with whom you may, for example, share some family concerns but rarely deeper, more personal revelations. Real joy and passions are taking place elsewhere.”

“Men and women who are inclined to have this sort of dual relationship always feel resigned to not finding closeness and intensity within their marriages. Most often, they haven’t really looked all that hard at home or put out all that much effort. They assume the path toward passion and aliveness within the marriage is too overgrown. In fact, they simply choose the easier road.”

“What can we make of this type of arrangement? (between the WS and OP) Is it bad? Will it last? Does it matter? The only certainty is that the ongoing deception has a continuing impact on both marriages (or relationships). Naturally, any wish or commitment to make changes at home has long since passed. They are both satisfied, they believe they have the best of both worlds, and they insist they are not hurting their spouses. As happens in most long-term affairs, companionship rather than sexuality has become the strongest bonding element between WS and OP. In fact, many times in their liaisons, they will just talk rather than have any sexual contact.”

“…It should be noted that while they say they are happy, they both express sadness that things couldn’t have been different with their mates. Keeping such an important part of their lives hidden for so long creates a vague sense of fragmentation that becomes the source of inner doubting. Though both WS and OP seem to be juggling their double lives fairly well, one always wonders what might have been if they had had the courage to work harder on their marriages.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Clearly, these types of relationships are a cancer to the marriage. They cause it to deteriorate further and further until what is left is nothing but a shell, an “image” without any substance inside. The BS has been confused and deceived for so long, and has tripped on unknown, unseen obstacles that cannot be identified for so long, that any feelings of direction is lost completely. Even if the original issues in the marriage had been identified, by now they are so convoluted and mixed with the deceptive signals that have been received for so long, that any hope of identifying the issue is gone.

It almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy; the more deception and confusion in the marriage, all the more reason and justification for the affair. The more the WS becomes “comfortable” with the arrangement, and the more time that passes, all of the erroneous assumptions on which the original “escape” was built, become cemented in place. Every day that passes making them harder and harder to disprove.

By now, all intimacy, emotion and passion are long gone from the marriage. The ties that bind two people together are broken in every way except in external appearance. Any possibility of honesty, connection, solidarity, and mutual support are gone. And try as they might, the BS just does not have the necessary information to make any improvement or change. Everything they try is in vain…like trying to cure cancer with aspirin. And this further convinces the WS that they are right, all the time ignoring their ongoing contribution to the further deterioration of the relationship. They introduce the virus, and somehow believe it has not spread, grown or multiplied.

Sadly, many of these realities will remain forever hidden from the consciousness of the WS, and thus their continued belief that “it” was “caused” by the BS, that it was justified, and that the affair had no impact on the BS or on the relationship will continue, even after the affair ends.

In <strong>“How Affairs Affect Marriage”</strong>, once again, Kinder and Cowan point out some realities that are obvious to the betrayed spouse, but sadly remain in the mythical realm for the wayward spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>“Let us state at the outset that affairs are terribly destructive not only to marriages but to the individuals involved as well.”

“The most basic effect of an affair on one’s marriage is estrangement. Some people think a lack of trust is the ultimate legacy, but that assumes that the affair becomes known. The fact is that most affairs go undetected. Most husbands and wives will never really know for sure whether their love one has been faithful or not.

“Affairs are inherently dishonest; they all involve varying degrees of subterfuge and deception. Maintaining the “secret” requires an enormous amount of energy even if the unfaithful party does not think so. We have spoken with and counseled many men and women who at first insist they are carrying it off well. The report little or no guilt and are convinced the affair does not negatively affect their relationship at home. This is absolute nonsense!”

In order to keep an affair hidden you are forever walking around with a secret that burns inside. Imagine having a liaison, then coming home, making love with your spouse, and at the height of lovemaking saying “I love you.” Pretty hard to do, isn’t it? Yet millions of men and women have experienced that very moment. What must that do to a person’s sense of honor, integrity, character?”

“As for those who insist they feel little or no guilt, they are deceiving themselves. Guilt is not always conscious. Husbands or wives who play around may feel hidden guilt, which manifests itself in irritability, argumentativeness, with one’s spouse, or vague and ill-defined feeling of depression and self-loathing.”

“The expression “Adultery is for adults” conveys the notion that it takes a certain kind of caring and maturity in order to carry off an affair successfully. Many people cannot handle the inner burden of lies and deception, so one day they blurt out the truth. As with any wrongdoing there is always a concomitant need to confess. Some people will simply tell the truth, while others will unconsciously set up a situation that will expose them. The effect on one’s spouse is the same regardless: shock, intense pain, rage, and doubt that this hurt can ever heal and trust be reestablished.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Only time will tell if my W will ever understand or acknowledge any of this...it seems to me that for real recovery to take place they have to; otherwise, are you really recovered? CAN you really recover if these things aren't understood and can be internalized as prevention for the future?

<small>[ September 22, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

good points SC.

I'm not sure if we can ever be recovered or fully recovered unless WS realizes those things. Recovery seems to be a process and since my M is no where near it I'm not focusing on it now, so I'm not sure.

However, I do want to say that your invisible elephant comment has made me think about the months before my d-day. I never really thought about it as an invisible elephant but now that you mention it, it did seem that my W & I would argue almost daily and whatever I tried wouldn't work. I guess you are saying that EA was probably going on and she was already pulling away causing me to trip on things I didn't know were there.

I see the warning signs (20-20 hindsight) now but didn't then. When I asked my WW why she didn't talk to me about it and the problems, she bought up the good point of me "never asking her either."

While that is probably her way of shifting blame, I do wonder why I didn't ask. I guess I figured those rocky times would pass (bringing up the issues would just seem to make things worse.)

As for your WW, I would have to say my WW is very similar in the making one's self happy at all costs philosophy. In my case, I'm not sure it is cognitive dissonance with my WW. She always said that she didn't believe that people should be stuck in an unhappy marriage. While I agree, I believe you only earn the right to leave it after trying many, many different things over a long passage of time. My WW's response to that is "what if she doesn't want to do that?"

BrambleRose- I wish you had called my WW when she was debating whether or not to reveal her feelings to OM and start the A. Everyone else (besides me) seemed to advise her to follow her heart. She later described the experience as "irresistable" and OM being "in every pore of her body"

SC- to answer your topic question, I believe that some WS's do REALLY get it and some do not. I believe that if the road to recovery starts, they most likely will get it (or at least get it enough to where it matters and the M is better than ever.) Those that do not get it are usually in the marriages that end in divorce.

As for the points brought up about "experiencing" it to "get it", while I agree that is true for this and really everything, I don't think that is what you meant/were asking.

I sincerely hope your WW gets it.

soon.

<small>[ September 23, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Okieman ]</small>

This weekend I came to a stark realization that there are some WSs who will never get it. I have always known never to argue with a fool. But it really hit home this time especially when the XW has the emotional/mental level of a five-year-old. Can you have a deep, logical, convincing discussion with a five year old? Not really. What causes a person to stagnate at a five-year-old maturity level? (And I am not being facetious)It could be many things - a traumatic childhood experience (it was in XS' case), poor upbringing, etc, etc. Selfishness and self-gratification are their hallmark, disguised in many forms. And to get that, they will lie, cheat and steal. They are masters of disguise who put up a facade to hide their qwn perceived level of worthlessness. Many people argue that poor behavior induced by a drunken state is attributable to the alcohol. I say when someone is drunk, that is their true character on display. Same with the affair - it reveals the true character. Don't blame it on the "love chemical" induced euphoria.
In my observation, here is partly what characterizes a mature adult - knowing right from wrong, knowing who you are, not relying on someone else for self worth, striving to improve yourself at all stages of life. A lot of people stop life's learning process at about the age of 12. (My perception)
Once you evaluate your own situation and realize the WS or XS will never have the capability to "get it" then you will be free to release them. They are trapped, you are not.

You know Space, she might not think something is broken in your marriage. From the things I've read in your posts... you provide so much to her... she takes it. That to her, might be a functioning marriage. I don't know.

Your situation is a lot harder than mine. My WW is finally out of withdrawal and sometimes, starts to get it. Sometimes. It's enough that we extended our divorce decision with our marriage counsellor by 2 more months to Dec 20th. We'll see how things go... even if she does get, both or our wives, there are still so many decision points:
- how does she feel about herself?
- how does she feel about you?
- how does she feel about the marriage/family?
- 3 same questions for you Space.

If any one of those 6 decision points fail... you've got a lot of work ahead of you and a huge challenge. You have my sympathy Space. Be strong. Hang in there. You get it.

aanast;
Thank you for your comments.

Undoubtedly, over the months (in some cases years) while the A is going on and the BS doesn't yet know it, we "know" (or sense) something is wrong, we try to figure out what it is, we try this and that, we talk, we change, we try to accomodate, but how can we ever hope to resolve anything if what is actually wrong (the A going on) is completely unknown to us? It's like a doctor trying to cure you based on what you tell him you are feeling, but if you DON'T tell him what you're REALLY feeling, he'll end up giving you many wrong drugs/treatments. He can only act based on what you tell him. Add to that the additional distancing that takes place because of the secret having to be maintained by the WS, and we have a double whammy: the A and pretty much everything else in terms of conversation, intimacy, etc. having to be guarded by the WS in order not to risk disclosing anything suspicious...THAT's what I'm talking about.

As for everyone's right not to stay in an unhappy marriage: absolutely! Everyone has the right to leave what they consider an unhappy marriage. And if my W had done that it would have broken my heart, but it would have been more honest than to maintain a 2+ year affair. THAT is a "right" nobody has.

And you're right again; some posters mis-interpreted my question and suggested the WS would have to "experience" it before "getting it", but that's not what I was talking about. My question was do they realize the "additional" damage that is caused within the R and the M BY having the A...

<small>[ September 23, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Dear Spacecase,

I am glad you started this thread - there is some good discussion on here. I am in agreement with BRose - I do think that the WS who come back from the edge and decide to commit themselves wholeheartedly to their marriage realize the self-deception process they have been involved in.

In my case, your search for "type" of affair means something to me, because I believe that my H was involved in a long EA (maybe at one time PA) with a married woman 20 years older than him. He was involved with her emotionally before he met me, and continued his R with her while he was courting me, and she has remained a close friend. I read many of her letters, and the passionate friendship was there in full - I remember the one especially which I found in his pocket a year after we had become lovers that said "yes, darling, I think we can be in love with each other and not lose our integrity". When I look back on it, perhaps I should have dumped him then. But for my own reasons, I didn't - I set out, I suppose, to "save" him from this R. But this was a long term R, and she had neither of them had any intention of ending it. Instead, it moved on to a different level, with her assuming the role of "auntie" - older, wiser confidante to both of us. That all of us are Christians, and she the most evangelical of all confuses the issue enormously. We all seem to be obligated to forgive, love and accept each other. I am still working on this in my own personal counselling, and have not resolved my feelings about this yet, or decided if there is anything left to do.

What I do think happened is that my H did and does love me - wanted to get married and have children, tried to commit to me fully, spoke to her about it, and there is a lot of evidence that he pushed her away emotionally - I know this for a fact - letter evidence as well as "subtle" conversations with her. Through this last year she has repeatedly counselled me about how her own marriage was so bad, but that they experienced a "resurrection" - even in the last 5 years. How often I have wanted to say - "Perhaps that was because your lover married me and finally kicked you emotionally into touch - THAT'S why you were finally able to reconnect with your H."

But I haven't. To do so would cause a massive "family" rift. I ask myself whether that would be constructive and so far I don't think so. What is most important is what my H thinks and feels. And this is the question. Did having this R, and struggling to justify it and resolve it into one of "friendship" actually "corrupt" his way of thinking - so - that when he experienced problems with me arising from the stress of bringing up small children with no help, no family around and him working 7 days a week and all the resentment and weariness and frustration that brought with it, did his past experience allow him to justify finding a "friend"? Does he now think that there is really nothing wrong with being "just friends" in a "special" way, because he had just such a R for years (and her H never complained as far as I know - how much he knew or knows I still don't know)? I think that he did think this.

Now, six months of therapy later, last week we were talking about my father, who left us when I was 12 for another woman. This woman (my SM) really hurt us kids when we were little. My H said, during this conversation, "Yes, but your father CHOSE to be involved with her and to stay involved with someone who hurt his kids. He is not responsible for her behaviour, but it was HIS CHOICE to be involved, and since he was by far the older party and she was very young, he has the greater responsibility." I just about dropped my teeth when he said this. Six months ago, in his e-mails to OW2, he was saying "These things just happen, we don't choose our friends, we meet someone and then we have to try our best to find ways to carry on enjoying love where we find it but at the same time, trying to be responsible." FOG TALK. Presumably, six months on from there, if he can say what he said last week, he must realize that this also applies to himself and his previous relationship.

I can only hope that IC is slowly helping him to face not only the present, but his past as well, and that because of this, we may have a future.

Yes, I do think they can get it, but for some it comes VERRY SLOOWLY!

How are ya lately anyway?

LIR

I think that a WS can finally "get it" to a point. I am a FWS and when my H discovered my A, I immediatley said "we can get past this". I don't think the WS really gets the grieving time needed after the BS finds out.

In my situation my H didn't want to "just get past this" he was angry with me, didn't want to be around me etc. His answer to this was to have a revenge A. He lied to me about OW, moved in with her behind my back, brought our children around her. Although I didn't do some of the same things he did (I didn't move in with OM, or bring our children around him), the things he did were equally hurtful. I think that I would have realized without him having a revenge A the damage I did to our M by having my A. But, I don't think I would have ever understood the amout of pain, the time needed to heal. I never would have understood that feeling, the one where it feels like the love of your life committed suicide and left a note saying "I never loved you". I think after feeling this a WS can get pat that "hurry up and get over it" attitude.

So I think a WS can "get it" to a point but never 100% unless they've been there.

DU

Okieman;
I believe what you are describing is what psychologists talk about when they describe the "3 ego states" within all of us. The "Rational Adult" (our "normal" self), the Child and the Parent. Different traumatic experiences create within us a series of "child" and "parent" personalities which we use to supress the trauma of the experience from our "rational adult". But when these traumas accumulate, or become stong enough, in many cases the "hurt child" personality "takes over" and the "rational adult" is no longer present.

When that happens, an adult will "act", "think", "behave" like that child; a child who only cares about himself and satisfying his needs, no matter what the cost. This is often the case with afairees; they "lose" their rational self to this out-of-control child so they appear, to us as rational adults, to be "acting like a child"; because they are!

They are, as you say, "trapped"; but only if this "condition" is not addressed. It CAN be addressed through psychological treatment, but that will only happen if there is still enough of the "rational adult" in them, or the rational adult appears enough for them to realize there is a problem, and it needs to be dealt with. Much like an alcoholic; before anything can happen, they have to acknowledge they have a problem.

Thanks for your comments LIR and Lyxa;

Indeed, I think this is a "quasi-phylosophical" question more than a practical one, and it points out what I believe could well be a delicate decision for a BS to make.

There are, like with everything else, different levels and definitions of "Recovery". For some it's the WS coming back, or leaving the OP. For others (myself included) it means a more profound thing; a place where both of us understand what happened, our roles in the A, the personal issues within each of us that caused it, and the commitment to addressing those issues fully through therapy, or whatever means are required.

In my view, if we don't fully understand and accept all of this, then Recovery can be just an illusion. If we leave in place the inner issues within each of us that led to the affair, and we don't recognize and address them, them we're very likely to face another similar problem later: another affair, drugs, alcohilism, whatever "escape" our fears and hurts might choose to take the next time around...

So the question the BS must answer is "am I willing to try to make this M work again, hoping that with time these isssues will either be discovered and addressed, or am I not willing to do it UNLESS these issues are discovered and addressed now?"

We each have different answers to that question, but my view is that we should address them now and not just "hope" that they will be addressed later...of course that may mean that my M doesn't survive the A, since that may not happen, but again, that is a question we must each answer for ourselves; whether we can "live" with it or not. Whether we will take that risk or not.

DU;
While I don't agree with the way your H chose to "deal" with your A, I don't want to "just get past this"...I would like for both of us to understand it fully, and "deal" with our own issues, as well as our "couple" issues, in a way that is thorough so that the chance of something like this happening again is greatly reduced.

In other words, no band-aids. Band-aids tend to peel and fall off, leaving the wound open again, and subject to re-infection...the M subject to another A...

Hi Space,
I was thinking about you and wondering how you were doing. Wondering how the job hunt is going, how the kids are, and what they tell you.

(SS looks around for old military stuff. Finds nomex coveralls, puts them on, is ready for flame.)

I have thought a lot about you and JR in plan B. ( well, JR may be beyond that, but you are still in B.)

I think I would tend to drop her a note from time to time just so she knew I wanted to reconcile. I mean, there is a story about the couple that married and after about 10 years she asked him if he still loved her. He said, "I told you I loved you when I married you, and if anything changes, I'll let you know."

Of course, this story is often used to show us how NOT to do it. So my thinking has always been that If we have doubts and wonder what WS is thinking, they must have the same doubts about us, and wonder if we really want them back.

I think were I in plan B, I would drop a note every 3 or 4 weeks just saying something like this. "Well, I am doing pretty good, and progressing but I wish I were doing it with you. You know what I need to make things work, hope you are progressing too. Although I really can't answer your communications for reasons already discussed, I wanted you to know I care and that I still want things to work between us."

So, I wish I had a helmet to go with these coveralls. I feel my eyebrows going already.

What did Steve say about your last talk with her?

Hope today finds you well and happy.

SS

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>