JL is right H_P about the way you treated your H during the A as hardly loving by any stretch of the imagination. Horrible would be more like it. Your H had to endure more than two years of hell and a separation before he became aware of your A. So his last memories of the M and you are NOT of the fondest kind. But that's the past and it can not be changed, but what you can do now is to start creating good memories so that ,hopefully with time, these good memories will overtake the bad ones and your H will be willing to trust you with his love again. So start setting a plan in motion where you will take advantage of any opportunity to create good memories of you for him.

Hello Hopeful

I was just checking in to see how you were getting on - is it your family lunch this weekend?

I caught up with your post - you're lucky to have the words of JL - I call him a wise old sage - not sure if he is old, sorry JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Kily also can really empathise with where you are.

One thing that struck me is about your H not trying or fighting for the M. I know JL put forward a suggestion about him not knowing about the A etc. and obviously the way you would have been treating him. I wonder too though, my H although he has read SAA and at first thought it was good, has now done little to come together with me to see if we can implement some of the principals. The BS out here are really trying hard, and my H wants me to drop friends and activities and revolve my life around him. I don't meant that to sound critical of him (he has some fair points), but what in return?

My H doesn't even want to look at what was wrong in the M from my point of view to have the A in the first place. As I always say, I never ever will justify the A by saying H didn't do X or Y, but things were wrong. He only focuses on the SN (which I think are the least of our worries at the moment). I didn't have the A for S - it wasn't about that for me, although S became part and parcel of it. It's hard isn't it?

For now, you will have to do the hard work, and you're prepared to do that, so keep trying. I would talk to your children too. When I first took my SDs out after the A, they both were really supportive - it surprised me. ESD (18 last month), was actually angry with her D for going away to Germany and understood (in her mind) how it happened. Even YSD (14 this month) contributed to the discussion. Yes, you don't want them to do your dirty work as it were, but you may well be surprised but their support and responses.

Must go now, but take care.

Lisa

Hi Lisa.

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between your A and that of H_P. That difference is that your H was not living with you and thus not subjected to any possible abusive behavior on your part. If he had, he may have taken the route that H_P's H took after he found out about the A. Talking as a FBS myself, and from the experiences of other BS's, the behavior of a WS involved in an A can range from being emotionally distant to downright emotionally and physically abusive. So when a BS finally becomes aware of the A, s/he MAY view this as an opportunity to leave the WS and never come back and SOME actually do that (like H_P's H). In your case Lisa, your H's memories of you were based on before he left you to go to Germany two years ago and so his memories of you were possibly very fond ones and may explain why he didn't leave you after D-day. This is the reason why I suggested to H_P to start a plan of action where she would take advantage of any opportunity to create good memories of her in her xH's mind. After some time has gone by, her xH's mind will be full of these good and present memories that the old and bad ones will no longer have any significant hold over his emotional state.

Hello Coffeeman - don't want to take over Hopeful's thread here, but I hear what you're saying. Whilst there are always similarities and things that we can all identify with through these boards and stories, everyone's experience is of course unique to them.

I know my situation was not like H-P's (although my H would probably say I was definitely different when we were together during the A period - distant, distracted, sad, happy, picky up and down etc.) I was just empathising with the feeling of firstly knowing that you and only you are responsible for the position that you find yourself in (the nightmare you create), but equally how you wish for something, some concrete and specific sign from your H - not sure exactly what though!

Anyway, the point being I hope if it was your lunch this weekend Hopeful it went well for you.

Lisa

HP,
If I may interject my thoughts on your situation, (I have experienced betrayal from my WW who had a 4 month affair) I would say your XH was wounded deeply, and the way he dealt with it was by giving up on you and divorcing you. As time goes by he will think if that was the right decision, or if he would have done other things or options, we all ponder at our own past actions, and what the outcome could have been if we did this or that, etc.. But what is done is done. Your XH not opening up and talking could be because you have been bringing up getting back together, when this should be the last subject he would want to talk about (because he divorced you, he wanted to get away from you). Your XH has a huge wound in his soul/spirit which was caused by you, and it seems you have not owned it fully and truthfully. You said everyone knows the truth of why he left you except your kids, well what I think you need to do is sit down with your kids, and tell them the truth as soon as possible (they will find out later anyway, and it will be worse then). Yes it will be painful, but they need to know the truth because right now they may be confused. They are probably thinking why did dad leave us, he had no reason, he just abandoned us, etc.. (I told my older kids about what their mom did, and we all grieved and processed it, and healed and got through it properly) By coming clean with your kids, you will start fresh with them, and become closer by talking honestly and openly, and admitting your mistakes. They could also learn from your mistake, and express and discuss their feelings more openly with you and their dad. This could be the start of the wound healing in your XH. And it may take a while until your XH forgives you, but it is possible. When I came to the point that I forgave my wife, at that instant I just had a thought/felt a little bit of how Jesus felt when He forgave His people (bride) for betraying Him. I have seen how God turned my wrecked situation from the brink of destruction, into growth, faith and a stronger marriage and family. I wish you the same HP, so do put your faith in God, He does want you and your family to succeed!!

Thanks to all who posted, I can't express how much I appreciate the insight and support.

Coffeeman, You're right. I was very distant with my exH during the long distance A, before we separated. I didn't see OP too much, but he was on my mind. I certainly wasn't loving. I really did put ExH through an awful ordeal, but I wasn't physically abusive . Emotionally distant, yes. HE was too--but he's normally one to 'hold back' a lot. He was passive about my behavior, but that is his way.

Lisa, Thanks for your replies and empathy over the passive behavior of my exH. It seemed he didn't much care. He knew I was talking with the OM via the internet--as 'friends'--and he showed little concern. All along, I know I wanted him to claim his love for me, and tell me to quit this harmful behavior (before I 'really' met the guy, and after..when he knew I talked to him via internet) but he didn't say much, ever. He truly showed a lot of apathy. I truly thought he knew about the A, and didn't care. But--I still own up to it entirely.

You're right, Lisa-the lunch was this weekend. It went fine. It was cordial and polite,(we never were big fighters) and I could tell that my ExH grew progressively more relaxed during the two hours. (he didn't have much eye contact with me at first, then he had a bit more) I drove there, the first time the five of us have driven together in a car in years. It was very nice to be together, but of course it wasn't like 'before', nor would I have expected it to be. After we ate, the five of us went to another place for a dessert one of the children wanted. I didn't order any, and the ExH didn't finish his, so he offered me the rest of his. That was about it...we returned here, and ExH went to his place. I don't know how he felt, but we all did laugh a bit, and converse together. He has never been a big talker, but he did talk and share. He even asked me questions about my job. Sometimes I don't hold out much hope, he just looks so wounded. We'll see, it might take years--I expect it will, and even then he still might not get over it. I realize that.

Hurt- Thanks for your input, too. I have owned up to my mistake, in my opinion. My children knew I was dating the OM during the separation, in fact--they met him about a year after I separated. (yecch,I know--what a dummy I was) They knew that I was 'friends' with him via the internet before the separation, and I have told them that there was an emotional attachment with him and that the internet personal R with this man was all wrong, and it hurt the marriage tremendously. I have also told my children that the breakup was all my fault. They don't blame their dad at all. I don't see what is to be gained at this point in telling my children that I met the OM in person, too--several times, before the separation. They do know there was an EA before the split up. Maybe I'm wrong, but I dont think my children need to know I met him in person before separating. They don't blame their dad, and they hear me lament my huge mistake in leaving him---I feel that's enough. They know too that ExH is hurt by the R with the OM during separation, and that he might never want to come back. I've also told my children that I'm sorry I messed everything up , by having the R with the OM. I feel it's enough, but maybe I'm wrong.

Hurt, I appreciate what you've said. With God's help reconciliation is possible, but I know it will take a long time. At times, I don't know if it will ever work. The ExH seems happy living alone, without M. We'll just have to see.

I would like to invite the ExH to a holiday concert that takes place in a few months. It would just be him and me, kids aren't in it, or anything like that--does that sound like a crazy idea? Any input?

Thanks to all of you--
H_P

Just thought I let you know that you are doing a fantastic job of healing the relationship with your xH. Sure it may take a long time, but like I have been harping on all my recent posts to you, those good times (like that weekend lunch) will begin to help your xH start to associate happiness with you. Each occasion builds upon the next one, and so on and so on, until, God willing, he'll start to appreciate the woman you are and begin to ask you out.

Keep the faith H_P. We're all rooting for you.

hopeful,

I'm a BS man.... just adding my bit.

We are still married - thought we were recovering, W talked to OM on the phone yesterday. I can't believe it was just yesterday. I feel like it was several days ago already. Every few weeks she has some contact with him.

I just thought I would provide my context.

My feeling is that if I divorce her, that will be it - for a long time. I think she would have to be perfectly consistent for a LOOOOONG time before I would consider getting back together. If you want to win this, you've got to have zero contact with OM - a perfectly open life, show remorse regularly - perhaps even publicly - and be very patient.

If I were in your H's shoes, I would be enjoying my time alone - doing whatever I want, whenever I want with whomever I want - but mostly alone. One poster suggested that if he wants to be alone he's probably depressed. Not neccesarily. Some people (like my W) can't stand to be alone. Others, like me, are perfectly comfortable (if sometimes a little bored) with it.

It would be very helpful if you knew your H's top emotional needs. If he needs admiration, then you have a chance to pile it on - even remotely. Telling other people (who might run into him) what a wonderful man he is (especially telling the kids) is a good start. Some of the other needs can also be met remotely.

Plan on a marathon.

But, the affair is not the only thing that happened in 20 years. You need to identify your other failures in the marriage and work on them too. Maybe you H was being completely accurate in saying that he felt nervous with you. Read the sections on Love Busters and review the history of your marriage. If you see yourself in any of them, fix it now.

Best of luck to you,

-AD

-AD

<small>[ May 14, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Hi HP,
As a former BS, still working really hard on recovery, perhaps I can give you some insight.

The first thing I'd like to address is your view that your BH was "passive" and should have taken the responsibility to force you to end your online A. Did you ever tell him honestly what you were doing? The experience of the BS is usually that s/he gets nervous and edgy about the WS's EMR, and asks what's happening. The WS usually, very defensive, attacks. "It's just a friendship, you're crazy to think I'd ever get involved with anyone else, how can you hurt me like this by suggesting I'd be unfaithful...." etc, etc. Unless you honestly told your H, "I'm getting involved with this man emotionally, I'm finding our marriage static and unfulfilling, I need you to meet some needs, and I know what I'm doing is wrong and I want you to tell me to stop it," I'd say that your H was not being "passive." He was probably doing his best to quell his doubts and show trust and confidence in you. Would you indeed have stopped your EMR dead in its tracks had your H asked you to do so? Honestly, now?

The second thing is that it takes the BS about as long to come to terms with the A as the A lasted, and recovery for the BS starts ONLY when the A is completely over and a formal No Contact severance letter is written. So you are 4 years ahead of your H in this timeline.

Thirdly, a poster on In Recovery once put it this way: The WS has all the pieces of the jigsaw, as well as the box with the picture on the lid. The BS, blindfold, has to guess at and try to duplicate the puzzle pieces, and does not have a copy of the picture on the lid. That's why Radical Honesty and Openness are so imperative.

If you truly want to help your H to heal, it will take dedicated effort and commitment on your part. It will take complete openness on your part about your life and actions. It will take committed, consistent actions that clearly demonstrate your remorse, repentance and commitment to building a whole new relationship. Oh yes, did I mention commitment?????

Finally, for the BS, the recovery clock is reset to zero every time there is any contact whatsoever with the FOP. And the BS never "gets over it" any more than one "gets over" being hit by a bomb. The BS learns to "get around it" and "live with it" just like a landmine victim who lost a leg.

Best wishes to you, HP. And a lot of strength!

Thanks to all who replied, it's great to have input on all of this. I still can't believe how I have messed up my life. I was always a level-headed, sensible person, before I made horrendously stupid choices.

Coffeeman,
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I truly hope you are correct, that he will begin to associate me with happier thoughts. I just don't want to push myself on him, so I will wait it out for as long as it takes.

AD- Thanks for your reply, too. Thanks for sharing your thoughts as a BS. My BS didn't know about my A until four months after separation. I applaud you for staying with her, and trying to work it out. I don't know how it feels, but I can imagine it's very difficult. As far as OM is concerned, he moved back to his own area right after I ended it with him. I ended it in mid-July. He called me a few times, but I hung up each time and threatened to change my number. He hasn't called since early August, and I don't think he will ever again. I have blocked his email. Quite frankly, that R was no good in any way, and I am sure he was in a way relieved when I ended it. He knew that I was still wanting to save my marriage, and that I still had feelings for my ExH. Also, seeing the OM's face was only a reminder of what a horrible mistake I'd made. This man couldn't hold a candle to my ExH--he wasn't a good man. My gut instinct told me not to trust him, and I should have listened to it all along. I stooped so low, was so swept up by his lines--I can't believe how dumb I was. ExH hasn't ever asked much about the OM, but I told him I'd ended it, when I did.

You're right, in my opinion, to like to be alone doesn't mean you're depressed. He is in that mode, and I am somewhat the same way. I think he is enjoying his freedom--you're right.

I am trying my best--at this distance--to meet some of his needs. I do tell people nice things about him, always have--but these people don't talk to him. The ones who do have told me that they NEVER mention my name. It seems that everyone is afraid to mention me to him, even my own family members who still see and entertain him. (I'm glad they do still see him.) I think one of my family members thinks I am crazy to even think of a reconciliation--they don't understand that people can withstand an A, and that a marriage can survive it. But--this family member hasn't been married too long, and I don't think she understands the bond of a LONG relationship with children. Who knows...

Yes, you're right too about the other damage I did in 20 years. I have apologized to him for many things in the past, and told him I could do better. He does look very thoughtful about what I tell him, but he doesn't look convinced. I have a full time career now. While we were together, I was basically a SAHM, and I know now that I bothered him for too many of my 'needs'. My self-esteem was lower then in many ways, and I think that my demands made him really withdraw.

Just STarting Over,
Thanks for your reply, too. I appreciate your point of view.

I know that my excuse of him being passive sounds like a 'cop out'. I am sorry, I suppose you are right in a way. I did tell my ExH that I'd met someone online who was interesting, and that I wanted to meet him in person sometime, just to say 'hi'. ExH said,"Well, I don't like it--but if you do--I never want to know about it." That is certainly no excuse for me to have done what I did , but I feel in a way that he didn't much care about me. He never seemed to have the 'protective' thing that many men had, so I thought...he didn't care. I was wrong, obviously. And..I was selfish, too. I even told him one time that the OM and I had talked about personal issues, and he just kind of shrugged. It really felt like he didn't much care. That is the truth of how I saw it. For years I'd complained to him about his lack of interest in me. I had even said to him , several times.."What do you want me to do with these needs, you are the only person who can fulfill them." So, I am being completely honest here that I was quite upfront with him. NOnetheless, I should have gone with him to counseling, and gotten help . (We'd gone before, about7 years previous) I know you will disagree, and that's fine--but if he (exh) had shown me strong feelings and opinion about what was happening, I would have stopped before it started. That is the truth of the matter. I know that I had the A, out of desperation and helplessness after dealing with such a passive man. For years I'd told him that I needed to hear him say ,"I want you," or "I need you". He could never say it. I realize now that he showed me he needed and wanted me in his own way, but I guess I stupidly needed to hear the words.

Your puzzle analogy is so true. Thanks for pointing that out. I can't even imagine what he went through. You're right on the timeline, too. I am planning on waiting a long, long time. He's worth the wait, even though I once viewed him as passive and overly quiet. I now view him as strong and thoughtful, with deep feelings that often go unexpressed.

I will never contact the FOP again. The thought of him sickens me. It did for the last months that I was 'with' him. He's truly the worse thing that ever happened to me. What a dumb choice I made.

FInally--Starting--I am not making excuses for my behavior. I am only trying to clarify how things went, although I still take full responsiblitiy. My ExH was being simply who he was, and that should have been enough. I acted immaturely and overly needy when I began the R with the OM, not to mention very hurtful and uncommitted to my marriage. I realize now that I mistook his unexpressiveness to mean that he didn't care.

Thanks again,
H_P

H_P,

You know reading your last post I found myself sort of puzzled and then sitting here with conflicting thoughts about how you describe your H. So if you would indulge me for a few moments I would like to run these conflicting ideas by you. I will explain the reason when I am finished. OK?

Your exH's passive behavior could be attributed to a man that was not very secure in his belief that you really loved him. Hence, he didn't feel he could speak up and demand that you stop what you were doing.

Your exH's passive behavior could be attributed to a man that had given up on the marriage really and was looking for a way out and you gave it to him. I don't believe this one, because he hung in there so long before separating and then filing, but...

Your exH's passive behavior could be attributed to a very quiet man who knew you and himself better than you think. He knew you would pursue this no matter what he did, he knew you were unhappy with him, he knew that he is what he is, and he knew he could live his life without you. He married you because he wanted to not because he NEEDED to marry you.

Now, my bet is that I am not completely wrong here, that your exH has some of these traits if not all of them. My point is that if one or perhaps another set of traits is really accurate then you have a better way to address this issue.

Perhaps after a little discussion a plan can be formulated. It may be that your exH just won't be married to a woman that has done what you did, but I sense that is not really true. My suspicion is that he is comfortable where he is because he has had four years to adjust, and he will need to see a compelling reason to jump back into a relationship. It may be that you two will only be best friends as the years go on and that relationship can deepen enough to satisfy both of you. I don't know, but I think that you sorting out a bit of this about your H will help you.

You are indeed, as Coffeeman has said, doing a very good job. Keep it up, I know it is difficult.

God Bless,

JL

JL- Thanks for your very helpful reply. I know I didn't post too long ago, but I did want to respond again.

I think you are right the most in your third assertion about my ExH. I remember now that he told me once that he always figured that I would do what I wanted to do, anyway. I was unhappy with many things in our lives. I was happy, too, and chose to be blind to the happiness. HOw dumb, the OM and I began our R by OM talking about his marital woes, and I encouraged OM to work it out with her, and I told him how happy I was. I truly felt much contentment, at that time--before the EA started. Before the EA started my ExH knew too that this pre-OM had marital woes, and we both just kind of shook our heads . It all sounds so crazy now.

I mentioned before here the lack of recreational time, and many people here thought that was ridiculous of me. It was true though, ExH never had time together. No holidays together, none of the same days off, no chance to do anything as a couple. Also, he worked odd hours, so not even the same sleeping time.

He never had much expressiveness about anything,and I didn't work then--and relied on him too much for conversation. Yes, he did too say the Popeye thing, "I yam what I yam." You're absolutely right.

He wasn't miserable in the marriage. We always said we'd be together forever. The separation was more my pushing, than his...I was sick of lying about OM. It sounds so silly, but it was like being stuck in a sick sort of web, the A.

He told me last week that he is very concerned about trusting me ever again. I told him I knew it would be hard, but that he could. What does one say to someone that you've betrayed, the way I did him ?

I would opt for best friends, yes, but he doesn't even seem to want to hear from me. Then again, I know me, and I would find 'only friends' with him far too hard. The whole thing is so sad!

I don't know if I've helped at all, you asked me great questions. Thanks for saying I'm doing a fine job here.

I really took my ExH totally for granted. He was so nuts about me, since he was a very young teen. I thought he'd always love me. I truly thought he'd forgive me for this.

JL- Do you have any idea of a good 'plan', at this point--knowing what I've told you now. You're right, too, about wanting me--not needing me. Yes, indeed. He's a very independent person.

Thanks again,
H_P

H_P,

Well I have some not so well formed ideas. Perhaps after discussing them YOU can come up with a plan because after all it will be your plan. So if I understand this right, your H has said to you just recently that he will have a hard time trusting you. That is good, very good.

WHy? Because that means he is thinking about the issue of trust. Trust isn't an issue for a man that has decide that no matter what he isn't coming back. Do you see what I mean?

You had mentioned that you two hadn't had much time to do things together, but now his schedule is more regular right? It seems to me that one way to start a new relationship is to do things you have never done with him before. From the sounds of it doing somethings together is one of those things.

Now just some ideas, not really suggestions. If your H is quiet and self-sustaining, then one of two things might be true. One, he will relish you talking to him about YOUR feelings for him and see that you are indeed trying. Two, he won't understand your need to be back with him at all. You had your chance and you made other decisions, so deal with it. Now neither situation is fatal, just what it is. But, I do think you might want to open up to him in a way that he doesn't have to say a thing. That way he receives information but he doesn't have to put himself on the line. Yup, sort of a plan A.

I suspect he isn't big on conversation just for conversations sake, but for gaining information that is a different matter. I also suspect he is like most of us guys, he does like to be appreciated and you taking him for granted really hurt. If you acknowledge that you did and how sad (no sad isn't right) how you regret it I suspect it will stay with him.

Finally, if he is really rather independent then he may be one of two ways: 1. He likes you to be dependent on him 2. He would like you to be rather independent and thus put less pressure on him. Now being independent doesn't mean you don't need him or want to be around him, but I know I like it that my W can take care of just about anything. He may also.

If he is so, then his comments in the past that he felt you were pressuring him make sense. You may have just been trying to involve him in your life but he felt you were "demanding" that he do something. A big difference between a favor and a strong request.

Does this make sense?

Now when I start a research project I always ask myself several questions.

1. In the best of worlds how do I want this to work out?

2. If I am successful will I know it?

3. How will I know if I am going off track?

4. What constitutes success and how do I define it?

These questions aren't exactly what you need to ask but they may give you a flavor of what your mindset needs to be. If you were to envision being married to your exH, how would he react to you, how would you react to him, how would two lead your lives?

THen start again and factor in his personality, his approach to things, your personality, and your approach to things, and see if your "perfect" marriage would fly. If it wouldn't what would you adjust, how could you compromise, what would really work for the two of you.

Now HP I am asking you this because more people fail because they don't plan to succeed than fail because something couldn't be done. You need to plan to succeed at this, but it takes a full understanding of yourself, and a pretty good one of your H.

Finally, it seems to me that your H might enjoy being with you as long as relationship talks (RT's) aren't part of the picture. Given that you two didn't have much time together, being together and doing somethings might be a good start and more important that talking about it.

I suspect your H has a lot of anger still inside him. I also suspect if you do talk with him, it needs to be in a no nonsense manner, and yet supportive.

These are all just feelings and impressions I get from reading what you post. But, I think you can approach your H, he is going to make you overcome the barriers, he isn't going to remove them for you. You will have to prove that you really want him in your life and he will do little to encourage you. But, he will give hints <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , just as he did with the trust comment. He is telling you something there and while it isn't completely understood it is a good thing. He is opening up abit.

Interesting trust isn't really a big thing yet. I think just getting to the point that you could call him up and ask him to dinner at your place or if he would like to go to a movie would be a huge step forward. Gradually, you can take him where he has never been or hasn't been in a long long time. Actions not words are probably what gets him to reconsider the situation. If words are used they will need to be honest, straight to the point, and firm. Not wishy washy, or hurtful.

Does any of this resonate with your sense of the situation? If not, talk and let's see what can come of it. I am sure others will have opinions as well.

Must go home. Time for dinner.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I appreciate it so very much.

I hadn't thought of the 'trust' question as being a good one. But you're right, indeed. IT was funny, that evening I did talk with him - a week ago-- it seemed he did like me being with him that evening, talking, but then his words said , "No". I guess that stands to reason, he is torn.

His schedule is better now. Last spring he did once mention a movie or dinner--believe it or not--but then when I asked him about it again a few days later he said, "No, I changed my mind." Lots of that has happened. I asked him last week if I could call him, just to visit. He said, "No, wouldn't be good." Perhaps instead I should ask him to 'do' something. I am so afraid he'll say "No." Maybe I should wait awhile...just not sure what to do.

Whenever I call him about the kids or some paperwork , etc, at first he sounds rather cold, and 'rough', then he gets nicer. It's almost like he forgets for a few minutes that he is supposed to be mad with me.

I would like to tell him how I took him for granted, again, and that I was demanding, etc. The problem is it seems that he doesn't even want me to talk in depth about anything at all . He told me that it upsets him. Makes it hard to know what to do. But I could preface it by the words that I am not expecting anything from him at all for an answer. No response is needed. Is that what you mean?

I think that he is independent in the second way you mentioned. He likes people to be independent and not put pressure on him too much. On the other hand, he likes to help out others in many ways. But not if he's pressured to do so.
Does this make sense?

The questions you posed are interesting, and I don't know how I will know if I am off track , or not. It just seems like he doesn't care much anymore, and I can see why--considering what I did. Success to me would be a remarriage with him, with the benefit of some counseling to see how we can improve things.

I will ponder your words about planning at succeeding. It seems hard at times, but I know it will be worth it in the end.

As far as spending time with me, he told me it makes him feel 'awkward'. Maybe in time it will improve. He didn't seem 'awkward' on the weekend.You are right, too, he isn't removing the barriers. I just don't want to upset him by being too pushy with him. Last night I had to call about a 'business' matter, and at first he sounded very terse. His tone did lighten up, and we talked for about three minutes, and there was no conversation at all beyond the necessities. I guess he is scared of me. On the other hand, he has never been a 'phone' person.

I don't know when to try at this 'out to dinner' thing, no idea at all. Any ideas? For now I feel he wants the space, but maybe deep down he doesn't.

Take care, and thanks again for your opinion and for all others who have responded to this. I appreciate it immensely. All of the wisdom and experience here is invaluable.

Hopeful

H_P,

I don't have much time tonight,but everything you say suggests to me that the door is closed but it isn't locked. He has a huge problem. There seems to be feelings for you, but is afraid of you. Further, he doesn't want to be hurt again and to his way of thinking the risks are not worth the reward.

How will this change? By being around you. Call him if you and the kids are going out to dinner and see if he wants to join you. Then take him aside and tell him you plan on calling him more often for this type of occasion, because you have gotten your stuff together and realize what a fool you have been. Then smile, kiss him on the cheek, and then come on "let's eat." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Basically, while not being too pushy you really cannot take no for an answer and if you hear it realize it is NO just this time, there will be others. He needs to realize that his life could be better with you in it, than out of it. We haven't discussed sex, but I am guessing that sex between you two has been minimal for roughly 4 years. That is an issue that may need to be addressed, and I don't necessarily mean by having sex. But, that type of rejection really really gets to men. It is where we live you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Must go, but I think from what you said that with time, patience, and a little persistence you have hope. Somehow, you have to become friends first. You might even tell him your goal is to become a friend to him again, and someone he can trust. It is long term but that is what you heading for.

Tell other people as well. You might be surprised how they will help, if they know you are sincere and your actions support your words.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Hp,

Just wondering how you are doing? I'm assuming no news is always good news.

You're in my thoughts and prayers.

Thanks JL and Kily for your thoughts and responses.

JL- You are right. The door is closed, but not locked. I think you're right, he does have feelings--but there is a lot of fear.

I didn't mention this here, but when I saw him at his place about 10 days ago, I told him something. A supposed 'best friend' of mine (long term friendship) had told me in August , "Forget about ExH, he doesn't want you anymore, he has no interest in you." I told my 'friend'when she said it that I thought that was a rather harsh thing to say, and how did she know? She answered, "I don't know, I don't talk to him, I am repeating what you've said." (What a poor excuse to speak so unkindly, and I had never told her these things, anyway.) I repeated this conversation to my ExH that evening. I could tell just by his facial expression and shaking of his head that he DID have feelings for me. He still can't admit it though.

I will take your suggestion and invite him out again to be with the kids. It is very difficult, to say the least. Last night he came in after bringing home the kids. He will barely even look my way. I had actually been crying, not realizing he would come in here. He rarely does, but he had to give me some paperwork that I didn't know about. I know I looked awful, and I simply said I had allergies. My point is, it seems that I haven't made much progress at all. I never mentioned last weekend's lunch and how nice it was, perhaps I should have done that. I have to remember all of this is going to take a long, long time.

Kily,
Thanks for the support and prayers. Patience is what I need more of, and I usually have more of it than I do in certain moments. I need to call him at his job today---I can actually do a 'kid' errand that he was going to do, change in my schedule--but I dread calling him as his tone tends to be so short with me, so businesslike. Do you know what I mean? I will need to lift myself out of this 'down' mood before I call him. He needs to hear a 'light' tone from me.

It sounds like you're making really good progress. It's very encouraging to know that it's possible to make some progress.

Thanks for your support,
H_P

HP,

I get the same treatment unless XBF "wants" something. It's okay though. I realize that this man has to protect himself from me because there is something there that can hurt him i.e. feelings. The only way that he can guarantee that I will not bring him that kind of pain again is to build a wall between us. That is what your XH is doing when he talks to you on the phone in taht manner. If you didn't matter, he would talk to you like he does anyone else.

I relate to your desire to let a little time pass before talking to him. Yesterday I received an email from XBF that said he was going to be gone Saturday afternoon and on and would be needing me to watch DS.

All I envisioned was him and J going to some function together and then coming home and making love. I had to turn that image away and look inward for healing. I was reacting and judging him. Time helped and I sent him an email back that was supportive and encouraging. Suprisingly, I meant every word when I worte it.

Get past the moment and just love yourself. Remeber the reasons why you want him back. Hold on to the for a few minutes, and then place that call. His reaction shouldn't impact you then.

Good Luck.

Thanks, Kily. I did make that phone call the other day, and it was okay.

Last evening it turned out that the children were all visiting a relative over night in another town. I decided to call my ExH to see if he wanted to go out for a cup of coffee, or a movie.
(JL has suggested I ask ExH to do things, so I thought--what a good opportunity)

I called him and prefaced it by saying maybe I'm going "out on a limb" here, but would he like to go have coffee or do something. I told him I wouldn't talk about anything 'deep', not about 'us'. He paused, and then said, "No, I'm watching the game." I guess I try too hard. I then said, "You're welcome to watch it here." He said "No." As I said, I try too hard, as I then added (very lightly), "Maybe breakfast tomorrow?" (Knowing he so likes belgian waffles at a local place) He said, "No, I'm going to a guy's house to help him with a repair." I just said, "Oh well, maybe another time." He paused and said, "I don't know." I said,"Well, okay. You know I'm not giving up hope." Then, in my usual overly talkative way, I said, "Am I crazy to feel that way?" He said, "No."

I continued to talk about two 'business' matters in a very nonchalant way, although I could feel my voice beginning to 'break' now and then as I felt so sad that this person who used to be so 'crazy' about me now felt so little for me. I so wish that anyone considering an A would come to MB before the fact, and think harder about the consequences and foolishness of what they're doing.

Anyway, the call ended on this 'business' note, rather quickly. He's never been a phone person.
Oh, I did say that if he changed his mind and wanted to do something after the game, then he could call as I would be home.

Well, I got off the phone and of course fell apart. I am still devastated at what I've done to my once stable, happy life. This man so loved me , and I did this horrible thing to him. During the middle of these sobs a dear friend of mine called. WE talked a while, and then she came over to watch a movie here. ExH never called, as I knew he wouldn't. My friend said she thought it was all promising, the fact that ExH didn't tell me to get lost and never call again. (She doesn't know ExH, I met her after the separation.) I guess that's true, but on the other hand, ExH is so polite to people he wouldn't say THAT to anyone.

All thoughts and input is appreciated. I feel I have learned a lot here on MB, but there is so much more to learn. I wish that ExH would just read a little bit about the concepts here, but he refuses to read anything about marriage, affairs, and the like. Maybe some day he'll decide it's worth it, to learn more about what happened. Then again, it seems he is just done with me. After a 28+ year R and an almost 21 year M, I just can't believe it. I remain hopeful that someday he'll forgive me and our family can be reunited.

Thanks for listening,
H_P

H_P you are a woman and because women seldom ask a man out on a date, I want to give you a little bit of advice when inviting someone you like out on a date. Never, ever press the person, in this case you xH, to go out with you because he'll detect your desperation and only be more prone to say no. A better approach would have been if you had told him that you had the urge to eat Belgian waffles tomorrow morning for breakfast and was wondering if he wanted to go with you. If he said no, then you could have asked him if he'd like for you to drop an order of said waffles over by his place. If he still said no, then you could have said, 'ok, maybe another time bye' and just hang up.

H_P in the brutal world of singles dating, the needy and clingy man (or woman) is the least attractive of all. In order to attract someone you like, you have to learn to risk rejection. Rejection does not mean that you are a loser, just that the person you are interested in does not feel like being available to go out with you, and possibly anybody else for that matter at that particular moment in time. There'll be other opportunities to invite him, just take it easy and learn to smile a lot. A smile can speak volumes about a person, than his or her words could ever hope to do.