Hi all,
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving holiday. Mine was okay.

One thing that happened totally unexpectantly was that our daughter decided to not go with me in the afternoon, but to join her dad at some old family friend's house for the traditional meal. Our sons came with me. I was truly shocked my daughter did this, and very sad about it--but I understood. In desperation I asked exH if he could perhaps change his mind, and join us--at my parents' home--and he said, "No, not this time." I guess that gives some sort of hope, doesn't it?

I so want to be with my exH again. It is so very hard, I know many of you understand the pain I feel. I sent him a card for Thanksgiving, as I mentioned earlier, but he said nothing about it. HE dropped off our sons tonight. He didn't exit his vehicle. I was in the back of the home and unaware he was even in the driveway. When I realized sons were here, and I saw exH pulling out, I broke into tears.

I did tell my mother on Thanksgiving that I hated my life now. This was after DD decided to not be with me on that day. This was how I felt at that moment, but of course I didn't mean it. I am grateful for what I have. It's just so painful to lack what I had. It's all I ever wanted in life, a happy family--and I blew it.

Sharon,
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your words, and yes, I do believe he is truly enjoying the no responsibilities and coming and going as he pleases.

Had breakfast this morning with an elderly relative who still sees my exH. Again he told me that his great-granddaughter is now back with exH, and he forgave her totally for her A and moving in with another man. They were married for only three years, no children, no MLC. It's hard, isn't it, when you see others forgive and move into recoverey. Just a vent....

Kily,
Thanks to you, too for your note. How are you doing? I will do as you have asked, and write down my life with reconciliation, and without. I know it seems odd to say it but exH and I were very close for years. He was there for me, since we were teens. To have him gone is like have part of me gone, completely. He was my best friend, until I got 'addicted' to my internet person, and then got involved in that mess. I know it sounds like an excuse, but this is what happened. ExH had those awful hours, no time together--I was so lonely, and confused. It was the first 'bad' thing I'd ever done in my life. So there you are.

I have as a motivation our children. OUr kids look happy, but deep down this has affected them greatly. One suffers from depression now.

I haven't written it out yet, as you suggested, but I will soon. Without writing it I can say that my pain most likely comes from losing the happy family I always wanted, and did have. Also losing the calm and strength of a man who loved me so deeply, and who shares children with me. I can't have that with anyone else, ever again. He is the only one I want.

The choice I made, the A, was based mostly on my loneliness at his work hours. I so craved his company, his companionship. I know that many here will think that's baloney. That's fine. I know what I know. The internet for me was a convenience, and I NEVER would have talked in person with a man as I did here. It was all so stupid, Kily. It was an addiction, and it led to in person stuff. My whole family is full of addicts, I guess this was my stint.

I like what you said,

"Part of our healing needs to include the acceptance that our beloved mate has made a new life for themselves that doesn't include us. We have to learn to support their wishes, and to let go of our NEEDS for them to be a part of our lives."

I am not quite ready to do that, not for a few years. I have no interest in letting go at this point. I just broke up with OM in July, and this lasted four years from the beginning of the EA with OM. I need to give my ExH time.

You aren't harsh, never apologize. You are right in what you're saying. I 'm just not ready to let go. Now when I'm finally seeing clear, after being in that terrible situation with OM.

I need to attend to some work responsibilities now, before tomorrow morning.

Take care, and thanks for your help.

HP

H_P,

I was thinking of you and glad to see your post. I am so sorry about your DD. It must be horribly painful. I think this is one of the hardest things. I know I dread the day when H takes my kids out with OW. Thinking of it makes me physically ill. I know it is a different thing then your sit. but I believe the pain is the same. Seeing your kids do things and make choices that don't include you.

You wrote:

" Without writing it I can say that my pain most likely comes from losing the happy family I always wanted, and did have. Also losing the calm and strength of a man who loved me so deeply, and who shares children with me. I can't have that with anyone else, ever again. He is the only one I want."

I can so relate to this. This has been the hardest part for me. I always cherished our family and it was the one thing I was most proud of and believed my H felt the same. I agree we can never have that with anyone else. We can have happiness and love, but never our family whole again. I still think there is hope for you however. I think you would be surprised if you could read your H's mind. I bet he thinks about a lot of the things you do. You were together too long for him not to. I believe my H does also, but pushes it away because it doesn't "fit" what he wants at the moment. I believe your H has a different motive for supressing his feelings but I do think he is supressing them and that enventually they will come forward. If you can be there for him maybe there is hope for you.

You wrote:

"I am not quite ready to do that, not for a few years. I have no interest in letting go at this point. I just broke up with OM in July, and this lasted four years from the beginning of the EA with OM. I need to give my ExH time.

I 'm just not ready to let go. Now when I'm finally seeing clear, after being in that terrible situation with OM."

This is a personal decision. I wish I had your resolve. I don't know, I wish I wasn't ready to let go. No one can tell you when it is time, not even your H. IF the time comes you will know and it will be much like the BS's situation in that you will be able to KNOW that you gave it all you could and it will be easier for you to move ahead knowing this. I personally take GREAT comfort in the fact that I have given my H every opportunity and I am so grateful that I have escaped the trap of being resentful, disrespectful and bitter towards him.

Sounds like you are working hard. I admire your strength and conviction. It would be so easy for you to chose an easier path.

Take care and don't work too hard.

Sharon

H_P,

I am sorry that you are so down. I know it hurt when your D made her decision. But, I think you can learn something from it as well. You have made frequent mention that you always thought your exH would come back. But, you have not really seen what he lost. Your D choosing to go to Thanksgiving dinner with him, is an illustration.

He has lost alot. How does he deal with this pain? You know what it was like on Thanksgiving. You do it the only way you can, you withdraw from the source of the pain.

This is leading somewhere really it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You said earlier </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Time and patience, you're right. I agree, JL--I was JUST thinking the same thing as you. He is now trying to let me know how it feels , to be alone. I guess I can see that, too. Quite frankly I think he's happy alone. HE can do as he pleases, no house to take care of, no yard to watch over...no demands. I think in a way it's his own MLC. Does that make sense? He can run out, do what he wants..take little trips...no kids to take along. It's all freedom for him, and I think he likes it. I hope he grows tired of it soon, but who knows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P, he has not grown to like it so much as to deal with it. He won't grow tired of it, it is his life and has been for over two years, whether he likes it or not. I am sure the freedom is some compensation, but I am also sure he would have given it up to have what he lost.

H_P, I know you feel like to you can make this right. I know your life is similar to what it was before the affair, save the presence of exH. Hence, you thought (yes naively <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that he would come back. But, H_P he has NOTHING to come back to. I know you think so, but I would bet he doesn't. That is the rub of this thing. You are going to have to become his friend again, if he will let his walls down enough to allow you too. I think he will in time, but he probably has to see if you will just go to some other guy in a few months or so.

Dear H_P please understand that this is NOT two sides of the same coin. He has his issues to deal with now. He is comfortable enough because being near you reminds him of his losses. So he is reluctant to come out of the shell. It isn't so much that he likes the shell, but the alternative doesn't seem so good.

I like Dr. Phil's question about behavior, "What's in it for him?" He means that to change the current action to a different set, there has to be more gain than pain. Right now your exH doesn't see that, but he can in the future.

Please do your best to have a good holiday. And keep hanging in there. You are a good woman, just remember that.

God Bless,

JL

H_P,
I am a BS (twice) and am struggling with my feelings and relationship with my WS. I took the time to read this entire message thread and I want to tell you that I admire you very much.
You have gained much insight about your choice to have an A and I can tell you truly regret that choice. I love what you said about your H not being at fault for the breakup of your marriage. IMHO too many WS cling to the myth that the A is not totally their fault and that the BS was also at fault.
What you said about the two of you having problems was accurate as was what you said about your H not being the cause of the breakup. Kudos.
BTW I almost had an EA (I had feelings but never acted on them). I mistakenly believed that if I didn't "do anything" that nothing bad could come of it. I was wrong. The best thing I did from that bad choice was take complete responsibility for it. By doing that I empowered myself to fix in me that which was broken so I would not be at risk to repeat the choice to go down that path. That was more than 25 years ago and I have never felt a need to repeat my mistake.
Partly out of that experience I went into psychotherapy and was able to do some wonderfully good things for myself and understand and change some things about how I related to my W. I hope you will consider getting some help to further explore what is broken in you that led you to make the choice to betray your H. I was also an abused child and I know that the abuse affected me in ways I was not aware of until considerable therapy.
God bless you.

Thanks Sharon, JL, and Michael for your responses.

I want to let all of you know that I deeply appreciate your time here, and the thoughts and insight you have shared with me.

One thing to add- opinions needed. I am thinking of inviting exH out for coffee, again, for sometime within the next week.

I am frightened, as I feel he will again say 'no'. The rejection gets me so, so down-but this passivity of mine is doing me no good, either. Is it wrong to ask him out , and add that he could help me choose some gifts for our sons? Is that the wrong way to go about this? I can't stand that I don't know what to do , to try and 'win back' a man who loved me since he was a teenager.

Sharon,
Yes, Thanksgiving was sad for me. When my DD told me she wouldn't be coming over to my parents' home, I burst into tears almost immediately. After I got off the phone, I told my mother how much I hated my life now.

Yes, I've lost my family as I knew it. Sharon, thanks for your empathy. It is so, so hard. It's all that mattered to me, and I messed up.

Thanks for your message of hope, Sharon. I too feel that you have hope. The 'drug' of your husband's A will wear off in time. Mine certainly did. My children HATED the OM. If your H were living nearer, and your H were forced to 'share' OW with your kids and vice versa, the A would really feel some strain. I can see what you are saying, he is off with her---nothing from 'your' life to interfere. Just something to think about.

I can see too how you feel, and that my exH probablyl felt the same. He moved on , gave up. He never tried though, to rekindle or say anything to me. Please don't make that mistake. Let your H know that you still love him, and want him in your life. My exH's apathy , at that time, was an affirmation to me--that he DIDN't care. I know now it's not true, but this is how I perceived it. Hope that makes sense, Sharon. Have a good day today.

JL- Thanks for your response. Yes, I did learn from my DD not attending Thanksgiving. You said,

"You have made frequent mention that you always thought your exH would come back. But, you have not really seen what he lost. Your D choosing to go to Thanksgiving dinner with him, is an illustration."

I'm sure you meant that he hasn't seen what he has lost? Or did you mean me? I know what we've all lost, no doubt. ExH tends to not analyze too much, but maybe I 'm mistaken in what you meant/said.

JL- do you think it meant anything that my exH said, "Not this time". (about attending thanksgiving with us) Should that give me any hope at all? I just feel so sad.

You said later,

"I am sure the freedom is some compensation, but I am also sure he would have given it up to have what he lost."

I wish he would have told me, at some point, to please try with him and get help, to quit this ridiculous internet and then in person A. But he didn't. Is that just the nature of a conflict avoider?

I don't feel my life is like it was before the A, not at all. Before the A I worked a small little part time job, no career. I was very content in my life. Now I feel so full of loneliness, missing the best friend I had for years and years. Yes, I live in the same home. I struggle to get everything done, and I struggle at times to pay bills, too. He and I FINALLY could have some sort of financial stability, together. The worse thing now is that he is such a part of me, and everytime I think of him, I am filled with grief. I think of him all the time. I feel my life has become a horrible sort of torture, emotionally. So I don't see my life as the same, at all. My 'other half' is gone.

You may be right. Perhaps he is waiting to see if I go to some man.

I just realized it is time to go now~~ !!

I will finish this later!!

Michael, I'll respond to your response, too, later on.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

H

H_P,

You asked: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure you meant that he hasn't seen what he has lost? Or did you mean me? I know what we've all lost, no doubt. ExH tends to not analyze too much, but maybe I 'm mistaken in what you meant/said.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant that while you were in the affair, you didn't see what he had lost. Now you have a pretty good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL- do you think it meant anything that my exH said, "Not this time". (about attending thanksgiving with us) Should that give me any hope at all? I just feel so sad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thik it is a good sign. He hasn't shut the door. He hasn't opened it either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said later,

"I am sure the freedom is some compensation, but I am also sure he would have given it up to have what he lost."

I wish he would have told me, at some point, to please try with him and get help, to quit this ridiculous internet and then in person A. But he didn't. Is that just the nature of a conflict avoider?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't know the answer to your last question. I am not sure how responsive you would have been to trying if he asked. He may feel he did ask you and that you didn't hear him. One, of the things that is very common is that during the A people seem to NOT hear what the other is saying.

I do think that if a person has a low self-esteem and their partner starts up with someone else, they may just decide that is what the partner wants and it is not them. I don't know if that is conflict avoidence or it is simply trusting that your partner knows what they want, so why fight it. One does not control their partner. Does this make sence?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel my life is like it was before the A, not at all. Before the A I worked a small little part time job, no career. I was very content in my life. Now I feel so full of loneliness, missing the best friend I had for years and years. Yes, I live in the same home. I struggle to get everything done, and I struggle at times to pay bills, too. He and I FINALLY could have some sort of financial stability, together. The worse thing now is that he is such a part of me, and everytime I think of him, I am filled with grief. I think of him all the time. I feel my life has become a horrible sort of torture, emotionally. So I don't see my life as the same, at all. My 'other half' is gone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I meant during the affair. You didn't see what he went through, and you don't know the loses he feels and felt. Right now you really don't know his thinking. I am sure he doesn't either. He may be like some men, and if their W has sex with another man, it is over. He may think like that but can be persuaded to give it another chance. I really don't know. But, one thing is for sure he hasn't just slammed the door. So I think there really is hope.

Finally, Yes. Ask him out for coffee and to discuss presents. Don't talk relationships with him, just enjoy each other's company. That would be my suggestion.

God Bless,

JL

Hi HP,

Glad to hear that your Holiday was okay.

I didn't mean to inferr that you should give up on wanting to recover what you've lost. I'm still holding on to that dream too. I was just trying to illustrate that the "R" that you've had with XH is gone. Do you REALLY want THAT "R" back? NO! You want something MUCH better!

Your H is no longer the person he was, and YOU are a much better person than you were. By trying to FORCE him to see this, you are not receiving the gift that is being offered to you. Just because he doesn't jump up and say "HEY, let's spend time together! It doesn't mean that you aren't on his mind. His anger is branching from the fact that he doesn't WANT you on his mind. You have now planted things there that prevent him from completely blocking the thoughts and feelings.

Recovery is possible and is very much like a garden. You have to take time and dig up the soil. Then you fertilize. After that you plant the seeds and cover them with topsoil. You have to water the seeds and weed the garden. You have to protect it from the frost and the floods. After a while, the seedlings form as the roots take hold. The plants grow more, and begin to bear fruit. Where are you in this stage of "R"?

My experience this Holiday taught me something about the myself. I was able to "let go" of my FEAR that GF was replacing me in both DS and XBF life. I was so scared that this was going to happen that I was trying to prevent XBF from having her around DS. I was jealous, and lonely, and being a stubborn b!tch. Finally on TG morning, I let go. I called XBF and gave him the "gift" of his freedom. I let him have what he wanted in his life. It was painful for me because I had to give up my dreams and plans, and all I was left with was memories of Holidays past.

The funny thing about the whole thing is that I did what should have been done when I first went into my depression so many years ago. I let go of something that I never had. IN trying SO hard to FORCE him to MARRY me and love me, I made all of us miserable. With the unselfish act of letting go, I finally showed XBF how much I really LOVED him, and myself. Strangely enough, I wasn't alone on TG. He called me several times to tell me how Happy I had made him. I know that even though he had a great time with his GF, I was still in his heart and mind too. This was VERY comforting.

The point in sharing this with you is to say that in letting go, I have started to regain the friendship that started the Love Bond between the two of us. We were both so angry and scared that this had been lost for MANY years. For me, I feel very hopeful that I can have my BEST FRIEND back. Although it may NEVER lead to commitment or SR again, I am blessed because I get to rediscover the person that I've loved for so long but BARELY knew.

Hope I was able to convey the message. This got a bit further out there than I intended.

Thanks again for your responses. Kily, I noticed you changed your thread name. I don't know how to do that...perhaps I should simply start a new one. How does one change the name..?

Today I again thought of my exH very often. I haven't called him yet this evening to ask him 'out' to shop and have coffee. I will do that later on in the week, it is now too late.

Michael,
Thanks for your response. It was very kind of you to read the entire thread, I know how long it has gotten. Thanks too for your nice words of admiration. I was certainly more admirable a human being before I had the A, but thanks for still seeing the value in me as a human being. Perhaps psychotherapy would be a useful thing for me. I will consider that route, as long as I can find someone who'll accept payment on a 'sliding' scale. When exH and I had counseling years ago the counselor didn't see the $ex abuse I suffered once as a child as having any long term effects on my personality. I pretty much feel I know why I had the affair. It was about ego--being greedy..needing too much affirmation from a male. That is what it was about, IMHO. My exH's horrible work hours only made it very convenient for me. OM needed rescuing, too, in a way. I think I liked that, too.

Thanks, Michael, for caring and for giving me support.

JL-
Thanks to you, again, for your fine support. Thanks for the clarification about seeing now who has lost what. I knew all along what a horrible mistake the whole A was, and how much everyone was losing.

Twenty-six months ago when exH moved out, I remember the first time I took the kids there, for the weekend. I felt such a chill over me, that I was allowing my H to live alone, in that apartment. Later on, OM moved locally. At that point, he too was all alone. I felt guilt for all of this. OM's wife was alone, too, in their family home. I was alone. It was all so silly, such a waste. Between OM and I we were married 43 + years!!!

At the end of the R with OM...he and I (OM) were talking, and first I said, "Look at what we've all lost here...who has come out ahead in any way at all?" OM said, "No one has gained anything here. We're all alone now, all four of us. We've all lost so very much." He then added that he would 'wait for me', as he said, "Your exH will not ever want you back". He knew I still harbored hopes of returning with my now exH. He might be right--exH may never want me back, but I certainly won't ever return to OM!!!

You're so right, JL. ExH hasn't shut the door, but he certainly hasn't opened it. Great way of expressing it!

Thanks, JL , for pointing out:

"One, of the things that is very common is that during the A people seem to NOT hear what the other is saying. I do think that if a person has a low self-esteem and their partner starts up with someone else, they may just decide that is what the partner wants and it is not them."

This makes perfect sense. I think this is how he feels/felt. (exh)

I feel he can forgive what happened, if he just decides to do it. It seems to me he is holding on to the anger, the feeling of being unforgiving, for a reason. What is the 'pay off', psychologically speaking, for him to do this? Is it simply to avoid chances of further pain infliction by me? Maybe.

JL- Thanks for saying I was a 'good' woman, on your other post to me. My mom told me that, just this weekend. She said (it's a mom, of course) what a good person I was. It's nice to hear and believe after messing up so severely.

Dear Kily,
Thanks for your thoughtful response, too. I appreciate it very much.

I know it sounds hard to believe, but I would even take the 'R" with exH up until the time the EA on internet started. It was always a pretty good one. I just let myself get caught up in this romantic fantasy thing with the OM--and it was so, so seductive, the whole thing. OM's personality is very domineering, too, and I got taken in. I don't know how else to explain it.

The R with exH wasn't that bad--his hours, they were bad. I know I go on and on about it, but it's true. We didn't have the same days off for YEARS. No trips at all with our kids or without, for years. I felt like a single parent, even then, much of the time. I spent many family holidays alone with the kids--and my family, while he was at work. Now, of course, he has 'normal' working hours. This is the first time he has, in 20+ years. The hours became 'normal' about a year ago.

Kily, you said,

"Just because he doesn't jump up and say "HEY, let's spend time together! It doesn't mean that you aren't on his mind. His anger is branching from the fact that he doesn't WANT you on his mind. You have now planted things there that prevent him from completely blocking the thoughts and feelings."

I hadn't looked at it that way before, Kily. I hope that it's true.

I love your plant analogy, to recovery. Thanks, Kily, I am trying to plant some seeds. I am not having much luck yet with the plants growing. Maybe in time the care I'm giving will bear fruit.

Thanks for the mental picture. Thanks too for sharing your Thanksgiving experience. I see what you mean, about letting go. I will take that to heart, and think about it. I'd love to have my exH's friendship back, too. Maybe in time. We've always been very cordial through all of this. I feel like I was very nice about the Thanksgiving thing, with my DD. I have changed a lot these past few years. I hope that ExH sees it, too.

Thanks again for your help. All of you are great.

Take care and God Bless,
H_P

H_P,

Just letting you know I am thinking about you. I think it would be okay to ask your H to coffee and help with presents. The only way it could hurt is if you are really in the no-pushing mode. I think just an off-hand, throw it out there invite with nothing expected and no reply from you or sign of sadness if he says no would be okay. GOOD LUCK!!!

Sharon

H_P
You are certainly welcome to anything I can help you with on this site here. We are all here to get help and help each other.
I do hope you decide to get some more therapy though. I believe that there is a big difference between knowing the excuse for an affair (needing approval, attention, etc.) and knowing the reason you needed a man to give you approval, attention, etc.. The reason IMHO is probably rooted in your past and I also believe that until you dig it up and deal with it you cannot end its power over you.
I do believe that you are a good person now, maybe a better person even. Reading your posts, I believe you have owned your affair and I see no evidence you are trying to deflect some of the blame off on your BS. I cannot say that about all the WS that post here.
Remember that you WERE a WS but are not now. This is very important. You are now behaving as a faithful spouse so that is what you are now even if you are not married to or with your husband.
I believe that when a man and woman marry that God creates something new part of but in a sense separate from that man and woman. I also believe that you have not destroyed that new part, the part I call US even though you have damaged it. Trust in God to help you repair the damage you have done and remember to always make US more important than either yourself or your husband.
I will keep you in my prayers.

Hi HP.

I'm learning more and more about these posts every day.

To change the Post name, you have to go tot the first post and then click on the icon on the top right that looks like a sheet of paper. This will allow you to edit your post as well as the title.

By the way....YES, You are a very GOOD woman. You are human and you made some pretty bad choices. You are claiming your responsibility for the damage that was caused by those choices. In doing so, you are growing, learning, and healing not only yourself, but the one's that you love dearly.

Yes your children have been DEEPLY affected by all of this, as have mine. Imagine what they are feeling and learning now when they see that MOM is capable of making mistakes and then trying to correct them. That is what being HUMAN is all about.

HP,

It may be too late, but my advice is to ask your H to do an activity (shopping, movies, concert etc.) not have coffee. Having coffee puts alot of pressure on the two of you to "talk".

I would suggest asking him if he would go shopping with you, then while you're shopping suggest grabbing a cup of coffee.

Best of luck.

hi hopeful. like many I'm still reading and hoping that things will improve for you. one way or the other. meaning a closer relationship or coming to some peaceful resolution. Your daughter going with ex hus. that is probably the best thing that could happen. I,once before, suggested you encourage a closer relationship between her and her father. even at your own expense. why? she is the one to open the door between you and your ex hus. she can do it. she is going to be the one person most like you in his life. remember basic psy? association? he comes to feel closer to her and naturally he will,even if he doesn't realize it, feel closer to you. this is the silver lining stuff. you asked what psy. reward he has,or gains, from his distance? self respect! I mentioned that when I said he doesnt likly worry about what others think, but what he thinks about himself. hopeful, in another post you said you were a proud person. sometimes our posture gives us away,even when we are using words of concilation and remorse. thats why I suggested some really far out ideas, or addressed some questions to you for you to measure your willingness to give over and hand ex hus. complete control of your emotional well being. ofen the idea of trust comes into play in these situations. Im certain that he knows he can trust you for the rest of your lives. the trauma he has witnessed tells him that. but, he may need to see that you are now willing to trust him all the way with your very life. One question, I may have missed it in the reading, but how did ex hus. learn of the affair at the 4 month time of seperation? did you confess it , or did he have to learn it some other way? and Im assuming that was when he learned it was a physical affair? another question, hypothetically speaking, if you knew of a really great woman who you thought would bring happiness into his life would you introduce her and him , in order that he might become happy? obviousy this is a probing question. think about it. can you become a new you in the end? the new you might be able to get to know this man you care so about. honestly, it seems the old you may not hold much attraction. there are many here who are helping in the only way we can. words of encouragement, and caring . God bless you hopeful

Thanks, Everyone...
for your responses.

Sharon,
I did ask him to gift shop with me, last evening. I'll tell about that below. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Michael,
Thanks again for your input. I appreciate your kind words more than you know. I do still 'mentally' consider him to be my H, but the feeling isn't mutual.

Kily,
Thanks for the tip on changing the name of the thread. As you can see , I haven't done that. Nice to know though, if I do.

Espoir,
I did ask him out, for shopping. It didn't go so well, but there's always tomorrow. I'll tell about that below my responses to people. Thanks for your advice, I did take it.

Checkers,
Thanks for your response, too. Your suggestion of him being closer to the daughter is excellent, as you mentioned before. The problem is, I think, that he isn't receptive or open with anyone, even our kids. He is friendly, but he never opens up at all to anyone. He used to do so with me, but just me.

You're right, he gains self respect by not returning to me. But at what cost? Our kids are suffering terribly, we all are. Self respect...at not being able to forgive someone? I don't mean to sound harsh, but I see SO MANY forgiving souls here on MB. MAny people here will forgive ..even those spouses who commit adultery multiple times. I feel that deep down my exH will feel, some day, if he doesn't forgive me..feel worse than he does now. I think deep down he knows I am a good person, and good for him. This is simply how I see it, but I could be wrong, of course. Yes, Checkers,I am proud..but not proud in the way I carry myself. I don't think that groveling and crying is what a 'proud' person does. I've taken full responsibility for my actions. I do, however, feel so sad at times that he can't see my good points. I know I do have self-worth and deserving of a man's love again. That is what I mean when I say I am proud.
Thanks, Checkers for your input. I appreciate it much, and I'm sorry if my response seems harsh.

Anyway, yesterday evening I picked up the phone and asked if he'd join me for shoppping, for xmas things for the kids. He said, "Oh well....I don't know....mmm...oh.." He was so struggling, I felt for him. I said, "It's okay, you don't have to if you don't want to>" He said, "Oh...okay.." I said, "Was that a yes, or a no.."? ( in a pleasant, playful tone) He said, "It's a no." I said "Okay XXXXX , bye." He said, "bye".

I then went in my room and cried a river. My children came home then. (they'd been at his place) They joined me, resting by me and comforting me.

My eldest asked me later if I'd had an argument with the dad. I only briefly said that I'd asked him to shop,and he said, "No". I said, "Did he seem upset?" She said, "I don't know, he never says a word..but maybe he did."

Anyway, today I left work and RAN INTO him, for the first time since separation, in public. (we are in a big city area) It was at the bank. I said, "Hey XXX, how are you? " He barely looked over and said, "hi". He kept walking to his vehicle. It's like I have leprosy. I said, "Oh..about the gifts. I didn't mean for you to help pay, you know. I just need your input, especially for the boys." He then looked a little more humane, but he was still about 10 feet away. It's like he is a complete stranger. No, not that. Mere acquaintances act more friendly, and stand near me. When I said it'd be nice to surprise the kids with gifts, instead of stuff on lists..he did smile. Then he said, "I hadn't thought of any gifts at all." He started to walk away, and I said, "Well let me know if you think of some gift ideas." He said...now twenty feet away..
"Yes, I will." It was like he couldn't get away, fast enough. It's so depressing.

At first, as I said he didn't even want to talk to me at all. Like we're complete strangers.

I still love him, but it is very hard to take this behavior, although I guess it's just the way it is. A close friend of mine said to me today,(before the parking lot avoidance) "Maybe by the time he wants you again, you won't want him." I said, "NO, no, I've loved him for years and years. Nothing will stop that." That is how I feel. Am I nuts to want someone who rejects me so vehemently?

My next idea is to send him a holiday plant at work, for his office. I've never done that before. When we were married, he never had an office. Does that sound any good to any of you? I think it would be a kind gesture, to decorate his office in some holiday color. The note would only say, "Thinking of you" .

I know this is long. Thanks for letting me vent.

Quite honestly, when I see the way he was tonight in the parking lot...I think , "Why do I even care? This man is so cold towards me. It's like there's not an iota of feeling for me." On the other hand, JL might say that his reaction proves there is feeling. Well? JL?

Thanks again for your help. You're the best.
H_P

H_P,

Sorry to hear you are having such a hard time. I KNOW it is hard. Many of the feelings of rejection, the feelings of distance from your H. They are so similar to what we BS go through. I don't know what to tell you. You are working so hard and not seeing results. I know how frustrating and sad this makes you feel. How do I know? Been there.

I also know how desperately you want what you had with H again. I have felt that too. I don't know how long it will take for you to feel better, I know you will someday.

I eventually got to the point where I just had to let go. I haven't really given up hope, it is always there. But I have changed the focus of my life. Maybe you are not ready for this yet. And no one is saying you have to be. But please don't beat yourself up because your H is not coming around yet.

I don't really know what to say. I feel for you and hope you can feel better. I think this Holiday thing has us all down.

Take care,

Sharon

HP,

I want so much to just give you a really HUGE hug.

You and I are so much in the same position right now. For me at least, I have some semblence of friendship starting, but it is a VERY confusing growth time for both you and I.

I wouldn't be too down about XH reaction to you. Please remember that in the timeline of things, it is a VERY new situation for him. Imagine how he is feeling to have you showing interest and feelings for him after so many years of neglect and isolation. He's probably thinking that you've simply flipped you wig and only time will convince him other wise.

I'm not so sure if the plant idea is a good one at this point especially at work. I think he might feel put on the spot and it might cause the reverse reaction from what you intended. I would suggest possibly a very small non-noticeable gift snd perhaps a card with a small note that says "Just wanted to let you know that I care....." or something like that. Maybe a gift certificate to some sports shop or whatever his interest is for some nominal amount might suffice.

I tried sending a fruit basket and it basically came home with him and was thrown out. I would hate to see a similar turn of events for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite honestly, when I see the way he was tonight in the parking lot...I think , "Why do I even care? This man is so cold towards me. It's like there's not an iota of feeling for me." On the other hand, JL might say that his reaction proves there is feeling. Well? JL?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm not JL....BUT since I am "young grasshopper" I'm going to try to answer this as he has taught. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

These thoughts that you are having are a self defense to rejection. It is much easier to put up a wall and label an event based on our fears than to be open to the "truth" of what we are really feeling. The problem with this is that most people don't want to be vulnerable and try to control the outcome of a situation. Unfortunately, this is the only way to break through and get to the stuff that is really wrong internally and in the relationship.

Think about your statement: "why should I care?" What are you really saying here?

Since you don't do this, I will punish you by pulling away. THIS IS WHAT STARTED THE ORIGINAL CONFLICT! This is the pattern has to change in order to get to some resolution.

It's a conditional response....

If this man doesn't do what I expect, I will place a judgement (i.e. "This man is so cold towards me. It's like there's not an iota of feeling for me." ) and force a wall up to protect myself. Where is the love for yourself and him in this?

Okay now let's look deeper........

You are looking for him to fulfill a NEED in you. Why? What is it about his paying attention to your needs that hurts you so. I suspect that digging into this might lead you to some NEW insights as to WHY your "A" ocurred in the first place.

Next, turn this around.....

You bumped into you H at the bank. He was obviously uncomfortable and avoided you for his reasons. You tried to engage in him, only to have him withdraw further. This upset you because you WANTED things on your terms. Were you thinking about his feelings?

He was running out of fear. His thoughts will be of a woman that is making demands on him. He is feeling that you are looking for the same things that he couldn't provide for you in the "M" and increased pressure further pushes this notion into his head.

Now let's presume that this was handled in this way.....

You bumped into you H at the bank. He was obviously uncomfortable and avoided you for his reasons. You tried to engage in him, only to have him withdraw further. Instead of pushing here, you backed off and said something VERY non-committal like: Hi! It's really funny to see you here! I'm on my way to ______. It was great to see you (gentle squeeze on the arm here if possible) Take care of yourself, I hope to see you soon....and then YOU drive away.

He is left standing there wondering what that was all about. His fear of your needing him is somewhat abated, and he is left feeling confused.
He will ponder the difference in attitude for a while and then his defense will come back.

Consisitent events like this will eventually show him that you aren't looking for him to "fix" you and he will then be receptive to your presence.

In your car you can scream and cry, but here you've presented yourself in a caring, non-demanding manner. You're allowing him to have his feelings, and showing him that you care at the same time.

How'd I do JL?

This wasn't meant to beat you up, I sincerely want to help you. It's sent with all the LOVE and wishes for a great "R" with your "H".

I still WANT to send you some books, but I strongly urge you to read Greg Baer's "The Truth About R's". It really is very honest and will provoke your thoughts about everything.

Warmest Regards,

H_P,

Listen to Young Grasshopper, she has learned very well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

More to the point I think she has nailed it with concern about your action. Or should we say reaction. Now if you really want to scare the .... out of him, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> next time you see him say "Hi!" give him a kiss and just walk away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now you will have one very very perplexed man standing there.

I do really like Kily's idea of exchanging pleasantries with him, perhaps a touch, a squeeze, or that devastating peck on the cheek, (I do like frontal assualts as you can tell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), and then just walk out and continue your business.

Do this consistently, and gradually he will be sprinting down the street at every sighting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> or he will begin to accept that you do have good intentions although he doesn't want to acknowledge them.

Kily, you really are getting this stuff down. It really is all about each of us acts not so much how they react.

God Bless,

JL

Hi HP,

I'm not sure if you saw this or where your from, but some of the people on this site are planning a get together in NY on Saturday Dec. 28th at Rockefeller center. I am planning on attending and hoped that if you lived nearby that we could meet in person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What fun that would be......

Thanks to all who responded. I will respond more
specifically later on as I am having computer
problems.

Very low this evening, I am still in disbelief
over so many things.

Thanks,BTW,Kily. I don't live in your area, sorry
to say.

take care,
H_P

ps will respond more tomorrow.

HP-

HUGS.