Hey 2L!
Everything OK? 911 and all...

You've gotten excellent ideas here...work them thru, run them thru your mind, play devil's advocate with them. Prepare for the feelings that will come out and try to stop them...you're ready for this...do it!

And since Coffee-man's re-appeared, here's something I found for you:

Wired Java Fanatic

Dear 2long,

A suggestion.

What if you simply asked her, have you been in contact with RM again? And could you share the e-mail with me? After all, if it's a harmless, professional relationship, not an A, that should be no problem, right? If not, does she feel comfortable with you receiving private, secret e-mails from unknown women? Is that the kind of marriage she's comfortable with? Don't demand and don't LB, just say you are seeking to clarify. And to the answer you get, again, don't demand, don't react, just say you need to mull her response over.

Are you still getting advice from Steve?

2long, I also have to mention, that I enjoyed your use of the 2s in your sig line, but now that you use them in as many words in your posts as possible, I find your posts difficult to read. The 2s are a bit jarring. Maybe I am the only one to feel this way. So in best MB fashion, I'll ask, would you consider limiting your use of the 2's in interest of being more easily read?

Here's what went down after things got calm (nothing serious at the house, by the way):

W: What are you thinking?
Me: Actually, I'm a bit concerned.
W: About what?
Me: When I came home yes2rday, you hid your laptop from me.
W: Really? I must have been startled.

My W's a very, very good liar. She wasn't startled. I walked in the front door, which is directly across from the dining room table and a good 20 feet from the door. She was facing me and so her laptop was facing away from me. It took me several seconds 2 walk over 2 the table, talking 2 her about getting change from my pants pocket while I was walking in. Instead of 2rning right and going in2 the bedroom, I walked around the table while continuing 2 talk 2 her. It was then that she folded her computer screen all the way down so I couldn't see what was on it.

I'm not going 2 call her a liar. I am not going 2 blow my remaining snooping cover, in case I need 2 prove something someday. I WILL use Norton unerase on her laptop at some fu2re date just 2 KNOW where we stand.

Our convo 2night ended politely, with her holding my hand and genuinely (I believe) showing me love without saying ILY. That's enough for now.

"Small steps, Sparks. Small steps." -Contact.

All:

I definitely agree with the communication suggestions. Just didn't "open up" like I thought it might. She did a great job of "hiding" her reaction 2 my concern comment, or maybe she was genuinely unaware that I should be concerned. I doubt that, though. I'm betting this will make her think a bit.

Orchid: I promise not 2 quit!!! I was tweaked when I said that. I shouldn't get so tweaked. At least I'm tweaking on the 4um, not 2 her!

espoir: Sorry, but no. I'm not getting advice from Steve. I haven't done my homework that he assigned me 2 months ago. I haven't called him back for a 2nd appointment. I don't have any excuse at the moment, other than "I don't feel like it." I know that's not very satisfying, but I'm not very satisfied with counseling at the moment, and my W is DEFINITELY not interested at the moment. In fact, she's more impressed with what I'm learning from books and this website, though she doesn't know how much of the wisdom and change in my behavior is due 2 this website.

And my 2s? Gawd, where would I be? 2less?

Me: I'm a bit confused now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I thought I understood you to say that continued contact was known by you and W knows that you know. If that's the case...then why even ask about the laptop? Why not take on the subject without all this beating around the bush? (Rhetorical questions)

You need to take a little initiative here. I think Pepper said it best: "This activity hurts me. I'd like you to stop it, and stop hurting me."

I don't think at this point it's an unfair thing for you to ask. I think it's reasonable.

And, as I said before, you W probably won't (think it's reasonable). She'll be angry at you. Maybe accuse you of not trusting her enough. And get somewhat depressed. This is called "withdrawal." You'll need to just roll with it, and not try to "fix it."

Look, if after 10 months or so she still is in contact and all, and if you wonder how to stop her doing it, well, that's in my opinion a couple of months 2 long. You're the master of patience. What behaviour do you induce in her? Well, here's the bad news: She thinks it's actually OK, all she has to say is "gosh 2long, that's a LB if you tell me to NC". So she continues and continues and continues.....

What you gotta do is to tell her at least once every week: Look, I'm not making a drama out of it, but your behaviour is completely, absolutely untolerable. It's not sustainable because, guess what, in the long run I can't live with a person deceiving me daily. She HAS to understand that.

Now, you dont have to point at her hotmail acct or anything. That's too direct and she may feel 'controlled'. Just tell her: look: I know, I feel it. Your distant. I know you too well to tell whether you are lying now or not. Something along these lines works best.

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Spousal unit DID think about my comment during the night. Slept "terribly."

W: Your remark about hiding the laptop got me thinking about something you said over the weekend that hurt my feelings.
Me: Oh? What was that?
W: You said that, while I was away for a month 3 years ago, that you actually enjoyed being by yourself and only having the kids 2 take care of. (I have mentioned this before, and always added that when she's gone, I enjoy coming 2 see her or her coming home for a weekend about every 2 weeks 2 see me).
Me: That was in response 2 your remark that you'd like 2 run away and be alone for 6 months 2 get away from all the stress and US. That hurts my feelings. I DID enjoy being "single" for that period of time, but I definitely missed you while you were gone.
W: Oh. Okay. (she clearly was "counter attacking" with a fog-logic argument suggesting I was being hurtful 2 her with that remark, 2 keep off the subject of her contact with RM (she has NEVER mentioned him, at least by name, since I moved back, even when I ask a 2uestion that would be easiest answered by referring 2 him. Make sense?)

Me: I really do love you, you know.
W: You can love somebody and not have 2 live with them. (she hasn't been able 2 say ILY back 2 me since about March).

I changed the subject at that point. I'm not going 2 argue about nonsensical statements like that. Most of the rest of our convo was about the house and dealing with all the people involved.

Look, she really IS stressed out over the house issues, plus her job sitch. It's the end of the fiscal year, and this report, final copies, samples, and everything, absolutely MUST BE completed by the end of the month. Period. If I confront her about NC 2day, she could rationalize and justify that the contact is solely about the report and getting the samples back (I overheard a phone convo with her coworker about getting mailing labels sent 2 him 2 re2rn the samples). If I wait until early next month, there would be no excuse. I will ask for NC soon. I've only got the hurt 2 lose.

Shuting down the screen, and then not telling the truth when you bring it up - that is what this is all about and is a good example of why NC is important. If she will lie to you about something as simple as why she shut down the laptop, what hope is their for her until she can get over it?

I wonder of there is any way to point this out to her, but I don't know the right words.

I mean, this is what you have been saying right along, that this relationship causes lies and mistrust and prevents you 2 from being as close as you should be. What better example. I wonder if you could just point this out to her and walk away and let her think about it?

Oh well, I don't know either.

I can see the reasons you leave it for now, I just hope she comes out of it soon.

SS

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

It might just be me ...but, how did your remark about her hiding the laptop circle around to her feelings being hurt (and 3 years ago, no less)? And another thing, you all must have some wonderfully absorbent minds to be able to recall things like that from years ago! You 2 2long!!
You recalled that yours was in response to her response to your statement!! (omg..did I get that right?) Of course you are right in knowing that it was just a counter-attack. She had to shift away from her actions and to try and get the topic shifted to your actions.

I know this comment could cause some flames but I will not go into stuff that happened years ago (when it has NEVER been mentioned before). Evidently it was not a problem then or it would have been mentioned, so I do not allow it to suddenly become an issue.

I know...I know...some people might heatedly disagree but there is absolutely so defense to that kind of comment. I would just stand there with my jaw to the floor and feel totally lost.

As Always JMHO

committed

Committed:

Heck, I agree with you. It's like her comment 2 months ago, when she said "my IC said it wasn't unreasonable for you 2 expect me 2 stop talking 2 Rat Meat" (which got me all excited, because she NEVER acknowledged that she needed 2 get 2 NC before then), but then she followed with "but it's a moot point compared 2 the problems with our M." So, I knew it was still thick fog, and didn't argue with it, but MOOT, means "pretty much gone" 2 me, and in this context should mean that she's already gotten 2 NC, which she hadn't/hasn't. Pure horse-puckey.

ss:

"I wonder of there is any way to point this out to her, but I don't know the right words.
I mean, this is what you have been saying right along, that this relationship causes lies and mistrust and prevents you 2 from being as close as you should be. What better example. I wonder if you could just point this out to her and walk away and let her think about it? "

I think you answered your (my) own 2uestion here. "this relationship causes lies and mistrust and prevents you 2 from being as close as you should be" is exactly the point, and is probably the best way 2 state it. End of story.

Well, personally, I'd talk this over with SH, but I think you're enabling at this point. You've been in plan A for 10 mo., and she's still continuing the affair (at least EA, PA? who knows). Plan B is an important part of the process - the mort important, I think. Plan A sets the stage, but generally Plan B is where the WS decides to return because at that point they are forced to deal with reality, imo.

I'm not saying you need to plan B, but you need to set boundaries, and you need to stick by them. You need to be true to yourself too. You're sacrificing yourself and your feelings for your spouse, and she knows it. Furthermore, by not honestly discussing this with her, and putting it off, she knows that she's treating you with disrespect, and that you're not going to do anything about it.

I think you need to call her on this, tell her that *you* can't remain in the relationship with continuing contact. Don't give her an ultimatum, but understand that in order to be radically honest with yourself, and to treat yourself with respect and caring, you'll need to go to Plan B if she won't stick with NC and work on the marriage with you.

This is what I'd do, YMMV. Good luck.

cantaloop:

"Well, personally, I'd talk this over with SH, but I think you're enabling at this point."

Sure, 2 some extent I am.

"You've been in plan A for 10 mo., and she's still continuing the affair (at least EA, PA? who knows)."

Actually, been in plan A now for just over 8 months. Truly effectively, just about 2 months. Half-a$$ed, maybe 3 more months before that. Lots of grayness in my plan A!!

My W hasn't seen Rat Meat in about a year.

"Plan B is an important part of the process - the mort important, I think. Plan A sets the stage, but generally Plan B is where the WS decides to return because at that point they are forced to deal with reality, imo."

Yes, this is true in MOST cases. And something like the "blatant" honesty/love of plan B is what I will likely have 2 do, but I don't plan on a "plan B". I will stay 2gether, save our M, or work out an amicable DV before *I* move anywhere.

"I'm not saying you need to plan B, but you need to set boundaries, and you need to stick by them. You need to be true to yourself too. You're sacrificing yourself and your feelings for your spouse, and she knows it."

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter 2 me one way or the other. I know what my boundaries are, and I've told her what they are MANY times. She knows, alright. She may "believe" that she can take advantage of my love 4 her, but she can't.

"Furthermore, by not honestly discussing this with her, and putting it off, she knows that she's treating you with disrespect, and that you're not going to do anything about it."

This 'putting it off' has been necessary the past 2 months so that I could do a flawless plan A for the first time. I have, and it's been working.

"I think you need to call her on this, tell her that *you* can't remain in the relationship with continuing contact."

Again, I've said this, in these exact words, many times. She knows this.

"Don't give her an ultimatum, but understand that in order to be radically honest with yourself, and to treat yourself with respect and caring, you'll need to go to Plan B if she won't stick with NC and work on the marriage with you."

All the above is correct, except I don't plan 2 go 2 plan B. If we can't 2rn this around and get NC, I will file and we will work 2gether on an amicable separation of property.

2LONG,

You have more patience than Job. IMHO your Plan B attempt was probably the right medicine but too short-lived. My impression of your W, just from reading these posts, is that she would be more than happy if you just never ever brought-up the topic again, never challenged her on anything about it, and just plain accepted it and kept living your lives as normal. She appears to be quite content, and obviously quite capable, of having both you and RM in her life. For whatever convoluted reasons; in her mind she believes she deserves to have both of you in her life. In some weird way she may even feel that it is unfair of life (and of you) to make her choose one or the other. I don't know what she gets out of communicating with RM, but she obviously has developed a great need and dependency with him that she can't seem to shake out of (I too, had that problem with my EA, but I stopped all contact dead cold after it was found out); even though you have seen glimmers of consiousness from her that show you the contrary and make you hopeful for progress in healing and moving forwards without RM in the picture at all. You are right in that she probably has every concoctable reason for them to continue contact over work related issues, so total demand for NC would be futile (same as my W seeing OM everyday due to the pick-up and drop-off arrangements of his and her daughters at school and home). I would say at the very least when you hit your one year anniversary, if you haven't seen substantial, concrete, and verifiable progress, execute a solid Plan B that you will stick with until whatever conclusion comes from it. I am sure there are those here that would believe that you should not even wait for the one year point, but I am allowing time for whatever is going on with her work sitch, your new home, and your uncanny ability to stay the course despite all the setbacks. Good luck

Hey, I've said it before, I'll say it again... since it's being brought up here on your thread, 2L...

How are you doing?
How's your energy level?

That's what you should be keeping an eye on when thinking about what to do. (I.e. Plan A vs. B.)

But it's true that even in Plan A, you don't need to be an enabler. I have to agree with those who've said to talk to her at least a little - a real attempt at communicating your hurt, just for what it is - that's it. It at least lets her know that her dishonesty (by omission) is being noticed, and she can't get away with a truly "connected" relationship with you with her continuing to be dishonest.

At least YOU can be the one 2 show openness as part of your Plan A. Living by example maybe?

Blind Sided:

"You have more patience than Job. IMHO your Plan B attempt was probably the right medicine but too short-lived."

It might have worked, but I wasn't prepared enough 4 it. Now we'll never know, because I don't plan 2 try it again.

"My impression of your W, just from reading these posts, is that she would be more than happy if you just never ever brought-up the topic again, never challenged her on anything about it, and just plain accepted it and kept living your lives as normal. She appears to be quite content, and obviously quite capable, of having both you and RM in her life."

Well, this ignores the details, which I haven't been able 2 post. She isn't content. Not at all. She's ABLE, for the moment, 2 "blame" the house fire, the insurance company, her job, whatever, for her stress. But I've seen plenty of signs in the past 2 months from her (while I've been doing a flawless plan A) that she's NOT content and is really starting 2 feel remorse. 2 early 2 tell if it's enough, but it's definitely there. And I'm part of the equation, 2. I won't live like this forever. No way.

"For whatever convoluted reasons; in her mind she believes she deserves to have both of you in her life. In some weird way she may even feel that it is unfair of life (and of you) to make her choose one or the other."

This is definitely true. And I will let her decide what she wants or thinks is fair on her own. I will tolerate what I will, and no more, though.

"I don't know what she gets out of communicating with RM, but she obviously has developed a great need and dependency with him that she can't seem to shake out of"

Similar, very focused interests in their research field.

"(I too, had that problem with my EA, but I stopped all contact dead cold after it was found out)"

This I didn't get.

"You are right in that she probably has every concoctable reason for them to continue contact over work related issues, so total demand for NC would be futile (same as my W seeing OM everyday due to the pick-up and drop-off arrangements of his and her daughters at school and home)."

That's a different sitch. Rat Meat lives 2 states away. They would likely see each other at professional meetings, but I require (and I've told her this) total NC - no personal or professional "friendship" whatsoever. If she needs that, she doesn't need me and her family. It's that simple.

"I would say at the very least when you hit your one year anniversary, if you haven't seen substantial, concrete, and verifiable progress, execute a solid Plan B that you will stick with until whatever conclusion comes from it. I am sure there are those here that would believe that you should not even wait for the one year point, but I am allowing time for whatever is going on with her work sitch, your new home, and your uncanny ability to stay the course despite all the setbacks. Good luck"

Thanks. I don't think at this point I'll wait for the 1 year mark 2 decide what *I* need 2 have 2 stay in this M and make it clear 2 her. And I won't plan B. I'll file. This nonsense has gone on long enough. I don't mean 2 be vindictive either, which is precisely why I won't plan B. I want us 2 stay in constant face-2-face contact while we work out our separation, or stop it if we want 2. I'll have no more guessing what she's thinking or her guessing what I'm doing. All my cards will be on detable. Hers better be 2, or the decision will be straightforward. (that sounds vindictive).

J.R.:

Hey, how YOU doin'?!

"Hey, I've said it before, I'll say it again... since it's being brought up here on your thread, 2L...
How are you doing?
How's your energy level?"

Actually, pretty well. I feel almost euphoric (as opposed 2 "euphorbic" which is cactus-like!). Partly the prozac, partly just the fun that I'm having loving my W. My energy level is still pretty high, I'm surprising myself. I can feel it waning a bit lately, but not seriously.

"That's what you should be keeping an eye on when thinking about what to do. (I.e. Plan A vs. B.)"

For me, plan A until I burn all my chips, so plan D isn't "painful" for me. I don't want 2 bother with plan B.

"But it's true that even in Plan A, you don't need to be an enabler. I have to agree with those who've said to talk to her at least a little - a real attempt at communicating your hurt, just for what it is - that's it. It at least lets her know that her dishonesty (by omission) is being noticed, and she can't get away with a truly "connected" relationship with you with her continuing to be dishonest."

I do need 2 do this more. I'm working on it.

"At least YOU can be the one 2 show openness as part of your Plan A. Living by example maybe?"

Yep!

2L:
"All the above is correct, except I don't plan 2 go 2 plan B. If we can't 2rn this around and get NC, I will file and we will work 2gether on an amicable separation of property."

I'm just curious, but why not? in SAA SH profiles a couple who took 2 years to get back together, with about a yr. of that in plan B. Also, he believes that by executing the plan B, after the plan A, if the marriage does go to D, the BS is much more emotionally prepared for the D and recovers much more quickly. This kinda made sense to me from the D'd couples I know, in that it took about that long to return to themselves after going through the trauma of the D (if that makes any sense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Good luck to you, and make sure you take care of yourself.

cantaloop:

I don't feel like I can show my W that I truly love her for who she is if I'm not with her. She hasn't left me, so why should I leave her, unless we can't work past her A AND our problems (which is where my responsibility comes in). I truly believe that plan Aing until we fix our problems or reach an impasse seems much more productive an approach for ME than plan B. But probably only because my W hasn't chosen 2 leave us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Spousal unit DID think about my comment during the night. Slept "terribly."

W: Your remark about hiding the laptop got me thinking about something you said over the weekend that hurt my feelings.
Me: Oh? What was that?
W: You said that, while I was away for a month 3 years ago, that you actually enjoyed being by yourself and only having the kids 2 take care of. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long, I think it's probably a good thing that the spousal unit did not sleep well. Good to know that this all has her thinking...

But I too am wondering where did this stuff from years ago come from?? Smokescreen!! It's amazing, isn't it? Anything to get the subject to move on, and shift blame, I think. I honestly have no idea how what you said three years ago had anything to do with her closing her laptop! Just don't see it.

What I remember hearing from my FWH, before I stopped LBing and had voiced "displeasure" about the e-mailing and exiting screens when I entered the room was this - "Well, this is where I'm at right now!!" (Well, I guess at least it wasn't a lie!!?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> But I'm not sure it was much better! Yuck!! Fog-talk!

MT