H is here now after mowing the lawn. We had 'discussions'. I listened and very well I might add (H commented on this).

He still says that his resolve is that we can't work it out.

I don't like it but it is the way it is.

He went throught a lot of the stuff that we had previously and I listened, really listened, actively listened.

He said that he told OW to f... off last week, that's when he felt like ringing me while I was on holidays and saying 'I love you'. I told him how I felt, about being discarded and like I was thrown away.

I told him about some of the stuff I've learnt here (he said it was all bull**** and that he is simple simon). I said, 'tell me how people fall in love'. Interesting answer.

I said I know its over now but that I've learnt a lot and that I'm different and that even though I'm no where near a relationship at the moment as I'm very much in love with him, that one day i will meet someone and it will be fantastic.

I shared a lot, I listened a lot.

I think that I may have given him something to think about, but OW is the big problem at the moment.

I'm hurting. It took all the strength I had not to fight back but I did it. I feel like someone is twisting a knife in my heart. I feel like screaming in pain, crying my eyes out.

ugh. I wish someone was here to hold me after he leaves, I'm going to need a hug!

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

CYBER HUG coming your way

<<<<HUG>>>><<<<HUG>>>>

(((((Seahorse)))))).

I know how hard you are hurting, WH and I had a bad conversation a month ago that set me way back.

I know how weak you are feeling, like he has been stabbing you in the heart, and the knife just keeps twisting, it hurts so bad.

I know you feel weak, but look at how strong you were, not fighting back, that takes alot of strength.

What was his answer when you asked how people fell in love?

Thank you for the hug Sue with hope and GC. I really need it right now. His answer to me GC that was you see someone, your attracted and you talk with them. That's how you fall in love. This is true, I know there's more, sure, but he has a reasonable idea.

I dropped him off. I cried (in front of him). I said I didn't want to come between him and his girlfriend (actually I feel like hunting her down right now I hate her so much, I wish she would turn into a wart). I said that she must be pretty special if he willing to give up 13 years for it. I pointed out that he said that when they were having problems he felt like telling me he loved me. I told him that I didn't believe he was truly out of love with me. That when his relationship ends with her he will realise it and I truly hope it won't be too late (that I've moved on).

He said he's moved on now and why aren't I? He said that he was so unhappy and that's why this happened. That I didn't listen, that I didn't do this, I didn't do that. How many times do I have to hear it? What about his part in this. Why is he trying to make me take all the blame? He's wiped the good times, although he says he has no regrets.
I feel like such a failure when he says this. How could I let this happen? This is part of the problem, he blames and I accept it.Why do I feel like the only person who thinks our marriage was good. Am I mad?

I said that if he could just give me a chance. If we could just try, but I know he's made his mind up. The rejection is painful. I'm not good enough, and my love wasn't enough. She's won

When does it stop hurting so much. It hurts so much right now, I feel like I could stop breathing.

He said he met someone else on a working holiday and had coffee with her, so he's already looking around, even while he's with OW.

I am so confused. Why am I still hanging on? If he's moved on why haven't I? Why do I want this person, anyway? He said that I didn't do enough (I hated ironing his shirts and didn't make enough dinners). Guys, I think this is too much. I think he wants a servant. He worked long hours and that is true, but I truly did as much as I could. I work full time too, I wanted to get help (paid help) but he would refuse. He even said that he was mad because i wouldn't agree to getting Foxtel on. I said that if I knew you were going to leave me because of that I would have said 'have it'.

I wonder sometimes if it will be possible for me to love again, how do I trust again, how do I give someone this much love while I risk being hurt like this again. Its too scary. But I'm lonely. I'd like someone to be there with me, to have fun with, I'd like it to be him, but it won't be.

The reality of this hurts so ****ing much. I know that some marriages are saved, but there really truly dosen't seem to be hope here. I want it so bad, and I have to let go for real now. So why can't I? Why can't I do what he's doing and just wipe it so easily?

He wants to catch up on Monday. His actions confuse me. If he so badly dosen't want me, why hasn't he divorced me, why does he still want to be friends?

Congratulations! You seem to have done the impossible - turned around a plan B situation to a full on Plan A. You are in a good situation. He wants to keep seeing you.

I think your temperament is a little against you, if you are going to be on this for the long haul. Both GC and aanst are much calmer and a lot more on an even keel. You go up and down a lot. This is one thing you could work on. Easy to say; I am like you.

- relate

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Dear Seahorse,
I so feel for you and your pain. I have been there, heard the same hurtful, awful things from my WH. I also asked myself the same questions and still do to some extent. But, it does get better, you will get to that point, I HAVE, where yes you want him back, I still do, BUT, you can see the light of possibilty if he doesn't. I still have bad days, sad times, awful times, but I am changing. It does happen. I am almost to the point of the old WS standby "I love my H, but I'm not in love with him anymore" Sad, yes, I never wanted to be here, but it is a part of moving forward with my life. If WH wakes up, I at this point still am ready to reconcile, but the time is approaching, I can feel it, that that may no longer be the case.

Hang in there. This is a rough road, but the many here who have traveled it have left markers to guide our way. WE WILL MAKE IT. Take care.

Sharon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>Congratulations! You seem to have done the impossible - turned around a plan B situation to a full on Plan A. Compared to GC and aanst, you are in a good situation. He wants to keep seeing you.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Relate, I really do not appreciate you comparing my situation and analyzing it in another persons thread, it is not your position to judge me or my husband.

Seahorse: sorry about that, I am so sorry for your pain, and you are right, if he was so determined, he would have filed by now. I have heard the threats of divorce but he only mentioned it that one day. You are in so much pain, as if you are reliving D-Day again.

I spent alot of time in prayer, reading books, reading Scriptures when I relived it a month ago, and it has pulled me through.

You will be in my prayers, okay?

I said I didn't want to come between him and his girlfriend (actually I feel like hunting her down right now I hate her so much, I wish she would turn into a wart). I said that she must be pretty special if he willing to give up 13 years for it.

Always tell the truth. You do want to be first with H. He should hear that, not that you don't care.

He said that he was so unhappy and that's why this happened. That I didn't listen, that I didn't do this, I didn't do that. How many times do I have to hear it? What about his part in this. Why is he trying to make me take all the blame? He's wiped the good times, although he says he has no regrets.

You know enough by now to see what he is doing. It's called FOG or this type is "Blame Shifting." Since he doesn't want to take the blame, he tries to give it to you. I suggest you refuse to take it. And to be more kind to you, you must love him a great deal for this to get to you like it does. Please know that it is not your fault. Lets say that it is true that you had faults and that it bothered him. Did that give him the right to have an A, and leave you? NO, NO, NO. Never did, never will.

I feel like such a failure when he says this. How could I let this happen? This is part of the problem, he blames and I accept it. Why do I feel like the only person who thinks our marriage was good. Am I mad?
No, you are not mad. He thought the marriage was good too, you know he did. He is re-writing history to make himself look better. You know, my wife makes mistakes too, but I am still here with her. I make mistakes but she is still with me. He screwed up, but he doesn't want to admit it.

The rejection is painful. I'm not good enough, and my love wasn't enough. She's won. So she has an adulterer who leaves his wife, and she is the winner??? Sounds like the looser to me. ( no offense intended, you didn't know when you married him. )

[b] When does it stop hurting so much. It hurts so much right now, I feel like I could stop breathing. Forgiver says it gets better. You just have to take it on faith. I wish I could help, but some days you just have to buck up and take it.

He said that I didn't do enough (I hated ironing his shirts and didn't make enough dinners). Guys, I think this is too much. I think he wants a servant. He worked long hours and that is true, but I truly did as much as I could. I work full time too, I wanted to get help (paid help) but he would refuse. He even said that he was mad because i wouldn't agree to getting Foxtel on. I said that if I knew you were going to leave me because of that I would have said 'have it'.
There is nothing you could have done, or said, or that you can do or say now that will make a difference. Fog is Fog. He did wrong, and he is trying to blame you. He is wrong and there is no excuse for what he did.

I wonder sometimes if it will be possible for me to love again, how do I trust again, how do I give someone this much love while I risk being hurt like this again. Its too scary. But I'm lonely. I'd like someone to be there with me, to have fun with, I'd like it to be him, but it won't be. The reality of this hurts so ****ing much. I know that some marriages are saved, but there really truly doesn't seem to be hope here. I want it so bad, and I have to let go for real now.
We wish we could make it better. I wish I had the words that would. I don't, but I care.

So why can't I? Why can't I do what he's doing and just wipe it so easily? He wants to catch up on Monday. His actions confuse me. If he so badly doesn't want me, why hasn't he divorced me, why does he still want to be friends?

You can't do it because you are a moral person that wants to do right.
What does he want? He probably doesn't know. In a way, I feel more sorry for him than for you. You have chance, you will be happy again. I hope he will be, but I have no faith that he will unless he can turn around - and I see no signs of that.

So catch up on Monday ( I suppose that would be now, for you) I said once that he is already broken, so you can't do him any harm. Practice on him and see what you can do. You don't have to be nice. You can try speaking Fogese right back to him.

" So H, what you are saying is that if a wife doesn't iron her H's shirts, he can go out and have sex with someone else? Is that what you are saying?"

and perhaps,
" I begin to see..... that means that if you don't mow the lawn one week, I can go shack up with another guy, yes it is starting to make sense to me now."

Don't be afraid of him. It's him that has the problem, not you.

SS

Seahorse -- I just returned from a 2 day backpack in the snow. I'm a bit weary, but felt I really needed to respond.

I feel exactly the same. WH wants to keep me in his life, is confused, but cannot recommit. It sounds as if your WH is in the same place.

Stillseeking as always has responded to you with thoughts that are both helpful and insightful.

My take on your situation is that your WH is confused and very confused at that. Staying in plan A is very hard at this point because you feel you have been working hard with little result. But, I believe there are results and they are just very difficult to see.

The results are that he is taking more effort to see you/for whatever reason. You are able to hear his painful words and not LB. Sounds like OW is becoming "a problem".

I truly believe that what you will discover through this next phase is that a) he will start to see through the fog and see you for the gem of a woman you are or b) you are ready to move on without him because you will get tired of his games and inability to recommit.

The best thing I've read in a while to inspire me during these very dark moments with WH is the post by Going Crazy on the planA/perfect marriage straight from the Bible (see if you can find it). Now, I am not a highly religious person, but those words do epitomize what I believe love should be and gives me courage, hope and strength to persist in what I am doing and what you are doing -- standing for your marriage in the face of pain, confusion, and myriad other problems.

We all make mistakes in our marriages (and all of our other relationships). You did nothing to deserve what you are experiencing now, however, you are learning about true love (see the going crazy post) and about yourself.

Stay strong. It is so hard, but I believe the rewards will be great.

Hi Seahorse,
sorry for jumping across forums, thanks for your kind words on WAT's thread.

I do think you are successful in your succession planA/B/A. Because you are able to open your H to talk, even if he blames you for this or that in M, and that he still wants to be friends with you and helps you with everyday tasks occasionally. And you are aware that the reality might not be the one you hope for, but you know -you still have a chance to fill this or that EN. And your H ANSWERS your questions, even if does not buy into MB concepts.

When I started Plan A, sure I hoped and still do we do rebuild the marriage, but truly the most important part for me was that:
1. I repair whatever I did wrong thatlead into this situation
2. Re-gain my self esteem
3. Protect my children
4. Can honestly answer anybody that I did ( not just try) whatever I could to reconcile and that whoever witnesses the ordeal will attest to that.
In life I am not a fighter at all, I only commit to things I am 99% sure I will not fail, I hate competition.
5. That I will not avoid conflicts and hide my feelings anymore.

I am still doing that. Nobody here promised it's fast and easy, so her I go, venting and crying, and sleepless many times, but continuing Plan is the only thing entirely under my control.

You were so adventurous to go on a night dive. I never went past snorkeling, but your vacation stories bring back my good memories too.
FBOW

((((Seahorse)))), how are you??

Dear Seahorse,

Right now your H is being highly disrespectful. Your trying to hold onto him at this time is being disrespectful to yourself. You do not have to sink to the level to get him back. You are better than that.

For that reason alone, it would be best to let him go and let all the 'other OWs' meet his needs. You see while he says he has moved on, he has not. He comes back to you as his safety net. SH, do NOT be his safety net.

He is not being yours and if you were to say right now who is the one hurting you the most, it would be him. The very who should be protecting your honor is being the most disrespectful person around you.

Dear SH, please tell him to go and be with all the OWs he wants, send back your Old H and tell that real man you love him, tell this shell of a man to stop hurting you. Ask to speak with your real H one more time. ASk him to find your real H so that you can tell him you love him. That real H would understand.

No amount of ironing or whatever he says you did or didn't do would justify his current treatment of you. So don't take the blame for it. Tell him while you know you could have been better he certainly has not justified his degree of pain he has imposed on you.

Through this pain, you will grow and be a better person. He will move from OW to OW in pain and end up an old unwanted man. He will recall the beautiful SH that once cared for him with all her heart. and then he will miss his W. Then he will want to right the wrong. Until he reaches that frame of mind, he will continue to hurt you and you don't deserve that.

I am sorry he is putting you through this pain, please distance yourself from the constant hurt. Until he can be respectful to you, IMHO you should implement a full plan B (check with STeve on this one).

take care,
L.

Hello all, GC - thank you for your prayers, I accept any prayers that anyone offers. I pray for people here too and do keep up with you even though I don't post. I think we have a lot in common actually (as far as personality anyway).

SS - you are always so kind and supportive. Yo do make me see sense sometimes. I'm learning slowly. I may not answer right away, I'm usually mulling things over in my head. Its true, he is very broken, my meeting with him Monday showed me that yet again. But I was good, I didn't LB and it was only for the reason that I want to learn how to control myself and I don't feel good about myself if I do that with anyone. I did however go a bit overboard with it all - I think I have to keep practicing to learn to balance not LBing and not being manipulated. I'm getting better at it with other people, but because of the emotional thing with him and obviously he is very good at it, he gets past my defenses. I figure that if I can learn to find that balance with him then everyone else is small fry.

I still believe he loves me, its just his taker's kicked in big time and he is just totally in another planet. My givers kicked in big time because he succeeds in laying the blame on me and I'm trying to please him. Uteconffootballwidow was pretty accurate, I still want him back but I'm at that place where I will survive (just) if he dosen't. I told him that I wasn't going to have a relationship with anyone for a while so I'm not going anywhere (meaning he can come back), but that I might have changed my mind by then. I know it will get better for me from here in. Acceptance is coming slowly and in manageable chunks.

USH, I just saw your thread. It made me so sad, I just know how you feel, it really sux big time. I am tired of the games, really, I've been through too much this year to be bothered with games anymore - at work, with family, anyone. I'm tired and life is too short and precious for this stuff.

FBOW, yes I am glad H is open to talking about this. I try to filter fog and reality, which isn't always easy as he is a master at lies and deception, but then I always was a good student and am learning fast.

I think we take reality in small portions, you know, we accept it in stages. I really believe if we didn't vent and just skip to final acceptance for some it would be far too much (I couldn't do it).

That night dive was amazing. I started out snorkelling, but wanted to dive so I could stay down there longer. I think I'm doing all these fearful activities because it makes me feel that if I can get through them alive then I can survive anything. Plus it takes your mind off it all for a while - especially when your in a shipwreck in the dark, with no torch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Orchid, I only just read your reply. Its funny I was thinking about this on the bus on the way home. I'm talking to SH this Friday, I want to ask him about this, as I really feel like I'm enabling it and being 'reliable Seahorse' 'safe seahorse' - always there when you need her, takes anything you care to dish out. You would think if someone really cared they wouldn't take advantage of this.

H is really good at this manipulation thing - I am just realising how good in fact. If I told you the stuff he said at lunch it would make your blood boil! Boy did I learn some stuff about their relationship. Mine started boiling on the bus tonight, thats how good a manipulator he is (or maybe I'm just too nieve). I know SH wants me in plan A and actually I think it is good because I still have stuff to learn, especially about self control and obviously about being manipulated. Plan A really is for me now, I know in this current situation he's not coming back, I know he'll be back one day, probably the day I tell him I've found someone else. I don't even want him back home anyway. I want to start as friends and work from there. then again the current 'friendship' we have is questionable too.

But, I am very much in love with him. Its scares me how much he would have to do before I fall out of love. Somtimes I wonder what it means about me. What kind of a person puts up with this crap? Its hurting my self esteem a lot and I know I really do have to draw a line now otherwise I will be in a very bad state. I nearly had a panic attack this morning, I could feel it coming on but managed to avert it, he got me convinced I can't survive without him. Luckily I have a strong rational mind that can kick in when required. I'm not going to let this destroy me, no way.

I'm still adamant with him about the financial split. I'm going to ask SH if I should also insist about the Dv.

There are other things too, but I feel that going through the 'he said she said' stuff is now becoming ridiculous - I realised that when I read Orchids post :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No amount of ironing or whatever he says you did or didn't do would justify his current treatment of you. So don't take the blame for it. Tell him while you know you could have been better he certainly has not justified his degree of pain he has imposed on you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This really gets it into perspective dosen't it. If I was such a bloody useless housewife then get in a bloody cleaner! Its just all excuses and ploys to shift blame.

Can you tell I'm going through the anger bit again?

BTW, the doggy will have to have some chemo, which I'm not so happy about - but doggy is my hero at the moment. He is my knight in shining armour! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding - I haven't completely lost it yet.

Seahorse,

don't feel bad about saying your doggy is you knight in shining armor, I have 2 dogs and they have kept me sane. Its pretty nice because they are our "kids", but all they want is undivided attention, and don't talk back!

I hope you are doing better, it sounds like you are a little stronger, really wish we could take a long vacation!

when did you start counseling with Steve? I have been counseling with him since May, and everytime I talk to him, its Plan A, plan A to the max. He had told me that at times I will feel like a doormat, I will feel like I'm all Giver, and No Taker. Steve is the expert, and I will trust him.

Has Steve ever asked you to mention to your husband on speaking with him. Steve told me to just tell WH that he had a plan, that was it. I haven't brought it up for a month now, just spoke wiht Steve last week, he said to ask again.