This may get a little long, but there a lot that has happened sice Friday. Ok, OM tried to call me any my cell phone and hit WW number instead. Only rang once and he hung up, she did not answer, it was in her car. Next morning obviously, she sees the number and e-mails him asking why he did not leave a message. And, that she hoped they would talk soon. He has not talked to her for a week now. He talked to me and we exchanged information that WW has been telling both of us. For instance she has been telling him that she has told me everyday for 3 weeks that we are over. That I have an attorney and I will be filing papers any day. Both of which are totally untrue. She has never told me it's over and I have never told her I was serving her papers. I told him she is saying all of that to keep him in. He said he did not like the ping ponging back and forth. I told him that she had told me that we owed it to ourselves to al least try. He said that she has told him that we are over and she doesn't love me anymore. Anyhow, he decides to confront her and give her an ultimatum. He calls her and tells her how they can't work because he lives 1500 miles away and she lives here. She doesn't buy and tells him they can make it work and that she will fight for him. He then proceeds to tell her then fine, tell H tonight that you want a divorce. that he will call me tomorrow (sat) to verify that she told me. She told him that she couldn't do it that fast. That he should give her a month. He said if she can't do it tonight then they are done and he will never call and talk to her again. She then says give her two weeks, so she can be out of the house (she moves out this Thursady). She finally tells him that she will tell me this next week. That if she tells me now I will cut her off and not help her get into her duplex. He tells me all of this. I tell him that I to tell her that he told me and confront her. He says he understands and theat she basically hung up on him at the end of their phone conversation. I waited a little while and called WW and asked her what was going on. She said about what. i said OM called me and told me that you were going to wait till you move out to tell me you wanted a divorce. Well, she went balistic, about him calling me and getting in the middle of out problems (like he hasn't been there all along , lol). I said I actually respect him for telling me. She said did you really think tht we would work things out. I said yes, I did. Just the other day you told me in couple of months we might go out on a date. I told her if she wanted a divorce to go ahead and file. She told me to do it. I said no way, if this is what you want then you are going to have to make it happen, I won't do it for you. She said she wanted to go to a mediator. I said no way, if you want to divorce me, just file the papers. She didn't want to talk about it anymore. When I got home form work, she left immediately to go to a girlfriends house. When she got home she went upsatirs to bed without saying a word. I had to get out of the house for a while. So I ended up staying in a hotel room. She finally called a 11:00am to see if i was taking our oldest to his soccer game. She was going shopping. I met them at the field and got the kids. I walked back to her car and told her that she had told me a few weeks a go not to do anything drastic. I told her should not do anything drastic in regards to divorce. She just said I don't have feelings for you anymore and I haven't for a long time. I don't think I can ever get them back. I went home and she came by the house for a minute. We started talking and before too long we were arguing and I told her i wasn't going to help her get into her duplex if she was just going to file for divorce anyway. Well she stormed out mad. I called her a while later and told her not to spend the money I gave her because I wasn't going to pay for anything. She told me that she has been my wife for 12 years that I should help her and the kids get into her place. We talked some more and she said again she doesnt have feelings for me anymore. That she doesn't love me anymore and hasn't for a long time. I told her you just don't throw away 14 years together because of that. I said we go to counseling and work on it, then if it's not there then we decide to divorce. I told her just move out and we'll be seperated for 3-4 months then make a decision. I told her we can divorce at any time, but why rush it now. She told me that thinking about me with someone else didn't bother her at all. I said well that's because your with someone. She then asked if in a month or so she wanted to go to detroit (where Om lives) would I stop her. I told her if we were seperated how could I. She said so you wouldn't tell me I can't go. I said there would be no way for me to stop her and I wouldnt try. It would be her decision. She left to go shopping again and I called her back later to ask when she would be home. She wanted to know why and I told her I was going out. She wanted to know with who. I told her a friend. She asked if it was one of my buddies, I said no, she wanted to know if it was with a girl and I told her it was none of her business. She didn't like that, but said she would be home at 5:30. She was and I left, dressed up of course, I actually just went to a buddies house.
Anyhow, I know that was long, but any ideas here. Did OM pushing her push her into actually thinking divorce or maybe she was already there and I dodn't know it. Her talk of divorce changed drastically after he talked to her. I think she sees that he is willing to be there if she divorces me. I know their relationship can't work, b/c he can't come her and she can't go there (kids). I'm not sure what to do. I guess I should just keep plan a'ing and just wait for her to actually file. Her sister doesn't think she will actually go through with filing papers. I don't know

TORO

Toro,

She is trying to have her cake and eat it tooo!! Even at the expense of you and the children. You are right to protect the safety of you and the children. I would question her ability to be the responsible parent if she can't even tell from one moment to the next about where her life is going. I am serious about this.

If you were to view a good friend or neighbor and saw his W was acting like this, what would you recommend?

I think most would understand that if you help your W get her new place and fund her expenses that you would be enabling her condition. She does need to see that she can't use you if you don't agree with her choices.

She may say it will hurt the children. It is already hurting the children. Don't let her bully you into doing her dirty deed for her. I had to push the Ws to the OP and tell him that now the OP was going to have all of the Ws and his 'needs'. No sense them having just the 'fun' needs and the BS stuck with the working needs, ya know? So when I gave it all, it spooked both of them. Crashed that fantasy pix real fast.

JMHO of course.

L.

Hey bro, what a crappy weekend....sorry.

The "if I went to Detroit, would you try to stop me?" comment jumps out at me. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seems like an exceptionally odd thing to say. Odd things can often be clues. Any idea what that is all about?

You need to get a plan together... Hopefully one of the long-timers can help you there. I feel you kinda twisting in the wind right now...

I'll pray for you man...

Other thing: Don't believe ANYTHING the OM tells you. He has NO REASON to be honest w/ you, right? No matter how sincere or believable he is... OK?

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Riff ]</small>

Yeah, I'm not sure what the comment about her asking me to go to detroit, if I would tell her she couldn't go. Not sure what to make of that. I know, I am not taking OM as telling me the truth.

TORO

Thanks for the input Orchid. As always much appreciated.

Another thing to consider. She may be wanting you to fight for her - she as much said that to OM once.

Does she expect and want you to say you will do anything to keep her there? That you will never give her up?

I can't say that I know the answer, just food for thought.

SS

SS - I had that thought too.

Ladies, comment: do women today still want to know that their man will fight for them? Or is this just an old-fashioned notion?

Riff,

This one is a tough one to answer.

To me it is not a clear cut yes or no. I admit that in my HS and college years, and while dating, it was an ego booster to have 2 guys vying for my attention. I am not so sure what it would say about my character if I wanted that to happen in a marriage. I would like to think that I would never do anything that would pit my husband against another man in vying for those attentions.

One the other hand, I would certainly want my Guy to say or do something to someone if they were trying to draw me away from him.

Now, did that make any sense at all?

See..I told you..with me it isn't a simple yes or no.

committed

TORO.

The problem with OM's ultimatum is that it may come back to bite him in the a** if she decides to call his bluff. If he truly doesn't want her then he'll have a problem if she shows up at his door and says too him 'I'm here to stay'. He's left the door wide open, and just like a Jehova witness at the door that won't go away, she'll keep trying to convince him that she wants to be with him. It would have been much better if he had said to her, 'look it's over between us, get over it and never call me again'. If he contacts you again, you might want to bring up this point I made.

<small>[ September 30, 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TooMuchCoffeeMan: Yeah, I thought that might happen if he did that. Basically, in her mind, he has just told her divorce me and I'll be with you. He lives 1500 miles away and she has told him that she is coming to see him. He told her she doesn't know where he lives. She said I am just going to fly to the airport and call you and you will have to come and get me. I found out last night she is looking at airfares to go back there.
In talking to OM, he has been honest with me that he has feelings for her. That it has been difficult to stay away. I told him he needs to make a decision on what he plans to do. He told me he is going to see his family's pastor this week to talk to him about all of this. I said that is a very good thing. He told me he would be upfront with me about whatever decision he makes, even if he decides to keep seeing her. I know what your all thinking, but I actually do believe him. He has said some things that have been brutally honest and that hurt too. He says he feels it helps him that we are able to talk. He has told her that they can never work, but she keeps pushing it. From the e-mails I've seen from her, I believe that to be true.
Anyhow, she moves out this Thursday. It will do us both some good. She is not herself right now. It will give me time to think about what I want as well. Who know, in a few months I might realize I don't want to be with her. At the moment, I am no where near that, but I also see her everyday. This seperation will give me time to work on myself as well as have some great quality time with my boys.
I guess if I could have it anyway, I would want it to be like this: we seperate, I work on myself and spend time with my boys, OM end relationship (hopefully), WW goes though withdrawal, depression, after 3 or 4 months WW and I begin talking (nothing relationship wise), maybe go out on a date. That is all I'm hoping for right now. Small steps. But I'm not sure what to do with her during the seperation. We have worked out visitation with the boys. I will have them tuesdays and wednesdays and every other weekend. I really don't want to see her for a while. How long should I "stay away" from her when we first seperate. How long do I wait to send her a small card telling her I was thinking about her and that if she ever needs to talk I'd be there for her. This is all so new to me I don't really know what I should or should not do. Hopefully, someone out there with vast knowledge of this can give me some pointers and some ideas.

TORO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I'm not sure what to do with her during the seperation. We have worked out visitation with the boys. I will have them tuesdays and wednesdays and every other weekend. I really don't want to see her for a while. How long should I "stay away" from her when we first seperate. How long do I wait to send her a small card telling her I was thinking about her and that if she ever needs to talk I'd be there for her. This is all so new to me I don't really know what I should or should not do. Hopefully, someone out there with vast knowledge of this can give me some pointers and some ideas.

TORO
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't worry about sending her a card expressing you are there for her, because right now in her state of mind she simply does not care. Let her approach you when she is ready and willing and listen to her without offering any solutions (we men like to offer solutions, when a woman only wants us to listen and validate her feelings).

No amount of words on your part at this time will convince her of the wisdom behind them. Shoot not even OM's few words of wisdom are enough to crack that shell she's formed to protect her fantasy. She's going to have to be bit** slapped by reality before she'll come out of the fog.

Even though it's easier said than done, you will have to detach emotionally (no expectations and no getting your hopes up without a committment to follow a plan of marital recovery) in order to protect your remaining love for her. Why protect your love for her? because if she wakes up and wants to work on the M, you will need as much of that love in order to motivate yourself to do the hard work. As our resident MB coach JoA has said, the beginning of marital recovery is the most vulnerable time where a M will either survived or die.

In the meantime, concentrate on improving other areas of your life and be the best father your children can have.

Don't forget to post, no matter what is happening or not happening in your M.