<small>[ October 03, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: TORO ]</small>

TORO I don't have any magnificent ideas that will bring sanity to your WW, but I do have some things that I would like you to consider that just might possibly help you live thru this ordeal.

What your WW doesn't want to accept is that the vast majority of men that get involved with a married woman do so for the sex they can get from her, and once they get their fill of her, they'll dump her hard out on to the street without losing one bit of sleep. Many of these men are also cheaters themselves, and will cheat on a WW at the drop of a hat. They'll do to her what she did to you, thus giving her a taste of her own medicine. Unfortunately your WW will have to learn these bitter lessons the hard way. She'll definetely suffer in spades the hell she created and that is sad because it could have all been prevented if she had decided to work on the M instead of escaping from it.

My point in all this? Your WW is more worthy of pity than of hatred.

TooMuchCoffeeMan: I agree. I don't have any hatred for my wife. I just don't want to get to that point. I confronted her tonight about flying to see him. She denied having any plans on going there, even though I know she has already bought plane tickets. I told her if she does go back to see him this will be over for me. I asked her if she liked causing this much pain in me. She didn't answer.
She told me she was not sure how she would react to moving out that she is not thinking of divorce. I said, in the back of your mind is there even the smallest thought the we can work things out. She said yes. She said you may not believe me but that is true.
I don't know what to believe anymore.

TORO

Toro, Toro. Toro,

I know things are not good rignt now but lets go back and talk about some basic MB principals.

1. If you can't take any more, go ahead and D her. She has been unfaithful and admited it. If you are done, then you are done. We wouldn't fault you if you want to get away from her.

2. If you want to save things then plan A is the best thing for a while still. I don't think there has been time for your plan to have any effect. Here is some more reading to do.
NSR's links to info about plan A and B
I don't think you have acomplished the goals of plan A yet. After reading, what do you think?
Now again, if you are done, then we won't fault you, but if you want to save it, you still have work to do.

3. You can't change her directly. You can't make her do anything. You already know she is not thinking clearly, and because of this has made grave mistakes. Making things work is a long term program and doesn't respond well to saying things like " If you go, this is over." Nothing you say means anything to her now, and hasn't for a while. None of her answers mean much, you already know she changes her mind daily. You have to step back and make some choices and then work for them to happen. Don't react to what she says or does from day to day or week to week. If you have the desire to save it, you have to ask " can I make this work long term." and if you think you can, then make a good plan and STAY WITH IT FOR A WHILE.

4. There are some good examples here of people working a plan and having success. Search them out and read for strength, and for an example of what to do. Here is a place to start. Notable posts

Go down to the success stories and read some. Notice that many of them worked the plan DURING an active A.

Toro, this may well be the most dificult thing you ever do, but make a firm resolve to to it the very best you can. Give it all you have plus a little. You want to be able to look back and say you could not have done any more, or any better. Perhaps you will be one that can put your story on notable posts as a success.

5. As noted in some of the plan A links, part of this is about improving you. When it is all over, you want to know you are not the same person and that you have made the proper adjustments in your life also. You want to be able to say " Well, I was making some mistakes in our M, but I no longer have those problems." And you want it to be true. I don't think you want to leave plan A until you can say that.

Hope this helps some, I didn't intend to dump on you but want you to look at this again.

SS

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Still Seeking: Thank you very much for the reply. It is so hard to have my WW look at me stright in the eyes and lie to me. In fact it is getting to the point where I almost laugh when she tells me these things because I know they aren't true. Anyhow, yes I do want this to work. I don't know why I get caught up in these talks with her. She told me she didn't know how she was going to be when she moved out. That it is a very big deal for her to pack her things and move out of her house. She said it had been a horrible day because of those thoughts.
I will continue to plan a her. It will be most difficult since we will be seperated by the end of the week. I'm not sure how to do an effective plan a with her not living there anymore.
Yes, Still Seeking, I would like my story to be a success story. Thank you for your reply, no I didn't think you were dumping one me, but even if you were I probably deserved it.

TORO

It is so hard to have my WW look at me straight in the eyes and lie to me. In fact it is getting to the point where I almost laugh when she tells me these things because I know they aren't true.
This is textbook MB. She is just doing what most WS's do. Probably best not to even ask, as you know she will lie, and this causes you to loose your love for her even more. You already know she has serious problems, why prove it to yourself over and over.

Anyhow, yes I do want this to work. I don't know why I get caught up in these talks with her.
You get caught up because you want so badly to make things work out. Doing plan A is not natural, it is hard to do. But, we do know that people like us more when we are nice to them than when we are not. It kind of boils down to trying to be nice to someone that is not nice to you. The more you study successful plan A's, the easier it will be for you to do it right.

She told me she didn't know how she was going to be when she moved out. That it is a very big deal for her to pack her things and move out of her house. She said it had been a horrible day because of those thoughts.
Life as she has known it is coming to an end. She is unsure. She has problems, weaknesses, fears. You don't have to take those away, that is a consequence of her choices. You need to show her it is safe to come home, and that if she does, it will be better. The key is SHOW, not TELL. You show her by ( and this answers your question about how to plan A if she is gone) being kind to her and loving even with her gone, even if she flies to see him. You will see her and talk to her and you are always positive and loving and strong. Lets see, one of the reasons the WS's like the OP is because they make them feel good, happy, they are fun, positive. You have to out OM the OM. You go on with life, you have fun, you find joy with family, friends, and you show it. You tell her you hope she comes back, that you love her, but you also say that you know that you will succeed no matter what. You don't rub her face in it, just be positive.

I'm not sure how to do an effective plan a with her not living there anymore.

You continue to remember her birthday, and other important things to her. You can e-mail her, call her to let her know about what is going on with the Kids. I think you have kids? My memory doesn't work well some days. You are ALWAYS positive when you speak to her. You want it to be so good that when she hangs up she says " this guy is great, what am I doing living by myself. " You remind her you love her and you want her back. When she is down and you can tell by the sound of her voice, you send her flowers with a card that says. " Could tell you were having a bad day, hope this helps." You do it ( not just the flowers, but things like this) over and over so she knows it is real, and then you keep doing it .

Toro, put the plan on paper and measure it. Not by what she does and says but by how much you are able to stay positive and do the plan. Try and meet her needs while she is away. Fill out the EN questionnaire for her and try to figure out what she needs, then fill those needs for her. For right now, worry about what you will do, not what she is doing.

I believe you have it in yourself to do this. I hope you have faith in yourself.

SS
BTW, I had a bad link in my previous post, and I fixed it.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Stillseeking: Again you gave me what I needed most, direction. I have been floundering of late not really knowing what to do. I have let my emotions get the best of me lately and I need to stop that and I will. I know it will be hard to do an effective plan a while she is gone, but the ideas you gave me will work best for me.

Thanks again,

Toro

TORO:

SS has given you some excellent advice. I will only add from my own experience. And that is that plan A... ...and I mean a REALLY GOOD, EFFECTIVE plan A... ...takes considerable effort this early since D-day. I no longer think my plan A was "pure" enough until 6 months after D-day. That's just me, perhaps, but I certainly don't think many of us are capable of doing plan A all that well for at least a couple of months after D-day. What do I think is an effective plan A? Well, for me it was loving my WW for who she is, not what she's doing behind my back. At the time I started doing it, just over 2 months ago, I didn't realize that this is "unconditionally loving" my W. There are many posts from ILove_Ulove (formerly Extremely_Confused) and others about unconditional love and where it fits in the MB plans (and there's some argument as 2 whether it fits at all). But in my case, it's been the most effective thing I've tried. And you know what? It's become easy because by not LBing my W *AT ALL*, and not getting drawn in2 a "discussion" that could become an argument, the "good side" of my W is blossoming again in our M, our family, and our extended family. She's even complaining less about work. The most important thing, though, is 2 NOT give her any negative impressions of you that can germinate in2 a rationalization for her continuing her destructive behavior. Leave her with NOTHING but positive thoughts about you 2 take with her 2 her new apartment.

I don't think you should be thinking about plan B at this point. Plan A as flawlessly as you possibly can between now and when she moves out, even if it feels like you're going 2 explode in the process! Eventually, you will find it easier 2 do.

And remember, the reasonable W that you fell in love with and M'd is STILL THERE, she just needs 2 find herself. When she does, she'll realize that there are NO OM out there that can replace the father of her children. Nobody!! It's gonna be YOU, TORO. Just give her (and yourself) time.

take care,

2long: thank you for reply. It has really hit home. I need to get control of my emotions and everything I say to her. I told her just a little while ago that I loved her and that I hoped someday we can talk. I didn't mention anything about her moving back home. I have pretty much paid for everything for her to move into her duplex. I've paid first months rent, bought supplies, tv, dvd player and given her money for groceries and other items. I told her today just how hard it is to do that for her with what is going on. I told her it has taken a lot of strength from me to help her like that. But, I said that is the kind of person I am, and that is how much I still love you. She said she knwos and that she does appreciate everything I've done. I said i hope someday you'll wake up one morning and realize I'm actually a good person and someone you'll be proud to call your husband. She was pretty somber, she didn't say anything.
Thanks for all your help, Not sure where I'd be with you.

NEW PLAN A STARTING NOW !!!!!!!!!

TORO

TORO:

We still need 2 work on your plan A skills a bit. If I may...

"I need to get control of my emotions and everything I say to her."

Very definitely. We all do in this si2ation!

"I told her just a little while ago that I loved her and that I hoped someday we can talk."

This is pretty much okay.

"I didn't mention anything about her moving back home. I have pretty much paid for everything for her to move into her duplex. I've paid first months rent, bought supplies, tv, dvd player and given her money for groceries and other items."

This is good, loving care stuff. Good for you.

"I told her today just how hard it is to do that for her with what is going on."

Try not 2 say things like this that remind her of what a terrible thing she's doing.

"I told her it has taken a lot of strength from me to help her like that."

You want her 2 go away thinking it's EASY for you 2 love her, not a chore.

"But, I said that is the kind of person I am, and that is how much I still love you. She said she knwos and that she does appreciate everything I've done."

This is good stuff.

"I said i hope someday you'll wake up one morning and realize I'm actually a good person and someone you'll be proud to call your husband. She was pretty somber, she didn't say anything."

I wouldn't have done this, myself. What could she say 2 that? Just leave her with purely positive things. It's amazing how easy it is 2 give her the wrong impression, or 2 misinterpret something she says and react negatively.

For example, my W and I had a great weekend 2gether. We then talked about what the best parts of the weekend were for each of us. Stuff that happened, closeness. That kind of thing. Well, last night we woke up because the neighbor was taking out his trash cans at 2 in the morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> After that, my W said 2 me "I just realized the thing I liked most about the weekend is that I really wanted 2 be with you." That almost choked me up, because it came from her heart. But I could easily have misinterpreted that and reacted defensively with something s2pid, like "What? You mean you haven't wanted 2 be with me until last weekend?" That would have been a monumental LB, but in the not-so-distant past, I could easily have reacted that way. I know that's not what she meant now, 2. Point is, you have 2 be very careful what you say. It's easy 2 misinterpret each other, particularly if one of you is in a fog and trying 2 justify their behavior which, if they really thought about it, is so wrong and so out of character for them, they'd probably lose it. Just be careful, and caring.

all my best,

Ok, I'm getting what you mean. Here's the next question. Everyone is telling me to let her be on her own. Not to help her if she calls and asks for money. Everyone I talk to is just floored I have helped her this much, even my counselor. They all think I am trying to buy her love back. I don't think I am. I feel the hardest thing to do is the right thing. And buying that stuff for her was the hardest thing to do. It would be much easier to just say hey you wanted this, you find away to pay for it. But I didn't do that. I tried to show her I still care and that I am a safe place to be. I don't think she will realize it right away. But, I think after awhile in her new place she will see those things and remember I bought them. It may be a small thing but in my mind every little bit helps. But, do I keep doing that? I don't want to be used either. Any suggestions. I know cutting her off completely would be a huge LB.

TORO

TORO:

IMHO, this is your call. In my case, I had a couple of big purchases that my W wanted me 2 make a couple of times since D-day that I said I wouldn't do - buy a new car and another house! Even2ally, though, I realized that, hey, I needed a new car and we couldn't lose on another house the way real estate is shooting up again, so I went ahead. And I would have 2 say that those 2 things have given my W that much more confidence in our fu2re. It's definitely been worth it for me. Whether it is for you is up 2 you. I would NOT do those things if you were in plan B, but I don't think you should be at this point. Just don't let yourself get spread 2 thin financially.

Thanks 2Long, I think I will just play it by ear and see how things progress. I won't make any decisions about that until they arise. I promise I won't get strung out financially. There really isn't anything "big" that she has wanted. I actually just bought a Olivia Newton-John autographed poster on e-bay for her. She loves her. I thought I would give it to her after she moves in as kind of a house-warming gift. I don't know maybe that would be stupid, but I'm doing it anyway.
Again, thanks for the reply. It is very much appreciated.

TORO

TORO:

"I actually just bought a Olivia Newton-John autographed poster on e-bay for her. She loves her."

Wow! An Oblivion Neutron Bomb fan!!! Sorry about that. Don't tell your W that!

"I thought I would give it to her after she moves in as kind of a house-warming gift. I don't know maybe that would be stupid, but I'm doing it anyway."

That would NOT be s2pid! It'd be from the heart from YOU 2 HER. You care about her and so you bought her something special that you know she'd really appreciate. Think about it: She hangs up the poster and thinks of you every time she looks at it. Good idea, TORO.

TORO.

There will be times when you will question your sanity, just like your friends and counselor, in regards to being kind to her because you will feel that you are not getting anything back. This is a natural reaction but I would like for you to consider that a lot of xWS's have said that even when they were living with the OP, they could not escape the inevitable tendency of comparing their OP with their BS. If your WW does end up living with her OM, she won't be able but compare you and him, and if the lasts memories she has of you are of a kind and loving man, guess who'll be the man that will occupy a lot of her waking time? Don't beleive me? go ahead and read hopeful_person's thread 'I created a nightmare' and you'll see what I mean.

You'll be able to survive this difficult period if you detach emotionally. Emotional detachment is accepting the reality (NOT the A) of the situation and not expect anything until she ends the A, never contacts the OM again, and wants to come back with a committment to rebuild the M thru counseling and following a proven plan of marital recovery.

The worst thing to your love bank is a false recovery and it's when a BS gets his/her hopes up too high when the WS says that s/he wants to come back without a firm committment and then finds out that the WS relapses and restarts the A. By the time the WS genuinely wants the M, the BS already has lost most of his/her love units and wants nothing more to do with the WS.

There sometimes is a lot more emphasis on surviving the A and it's continuance after D-day, and little emphasis on what to do to survive the initial phase of the recovery process. I beleive it is because a lot of people beleive that once the WS ends his/her A, that the recovery will be a piece of cake. Well it isn't and it will in most cases be a lot more harder than surviving an on going A.

You may think that I'm getting ahead of myself, but my point is to make you aware that if and when recovery starts, it will depend a lot on what you do now while the A is continuing.

Thanks for the info TooMuchCoffeeMan, it hits home. I am starting to get a better grip on how to handle Plan A. And thanks for the forewarning. I appreciate all of your responses.

TORO