Well, I have known about this site a while but just recently registered. I have some insights on opposite sex "lunch buddies". I do believe that men and women can be friends and can go to lunch together without developing intimate feelings for each other. However, I believe these are usually not the norm and in this world of temptation, it is not a good idea to seek out opposite sex friends. Let's say the chances are only about 1 in 10 that you will develop an affair with your lunch buddy. You may say in your arrogance that it would never happen to me. But I say that NO ONE is bulletproof, not even your local pastor. So I ask you, is it worth the risk?
It is like Russian Roulette. You only have a 1 in 6 chance of dying, but is it worth the risk? I say no.

I have a friend at work likes to eat out with the female receptionist about once or twice a week. He is a part-timer and is only in the office about once or twice a week. He usually goes to lunch with her but on some occasions, he will eat with other people. And they wouldn't always eat in private. Sometimes, they just pick something up, and eat separately at the office. Now, I really don't know what is going on behind the scenes, this could be a legit friendship. But I must ask again, is it worth the risk? Again, I say no.

I am very happy for this website, and want to thank everyone for their posts. I learn a lot here and will post more in the future, for now, God Bless!

Robert

Bobbalou - Ok, you may be right, but if you are, one could assume that any contact between a male and a female could result(and sometimes does) in an affair.

I've been on this board a long time and what I've noticed is that one's opinion in this matter is usually directly proportional to whether or not one has been burned by one of these "friendships".

I kinda relate it to a line from an album I have, David Frye's "I Am the President". David was the premier Nixon impersonator in the 60's and 70's. One of the skits is a press conference where one of the questions to the President is "What is an acceptable level of unemployment?". The Pres's answer: "An acceptable level of unemployment is a subject about which men may differ. A level of unemployment that is acceptable to one man may not be acceptable to the next. Actually, it depends on whether you have a job. And I'm working, make no mistake about that."

"Let's say the chances are only about 1 in 10..." I realize that you used these odds just for the sake of argument, but I would think that the odds would be more on the order of 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 100,000. I think most other people would feel the same and that is why most don't see any risk at all. Personally, for each "lunch" that I've seen develop into some kind of "affair"(and there have been very, very few), I've seen hundreds or thousands that have not.

I personally have no qualms about doing a "lunch" with a female friend. However, in doing so, other co-workers would know that they were welcome to come along and my W would also be aware of her welcome.

I am a FBS and I think that once you've been betrayed, you look at all opposite sex interactions with a jaundiced eye. You suspect everything and anything. This is a natural protection mechanism. Once you've been hurt like this, you never want to go thru it again, so you keep on the lookout and try to steer you and your SO away from any and all potential temptation.

Real spiritual strength comes from facing temptation and not succumbing, rather than avoidance.

It's taken a long time, but I've finally learned that understanding, forgiving my W's affair and working on the marriage to prevent a recurrence doesn't necessarily mean that I have to change my "worldview" and my basic beliefs. But, it does take a long time.

Peace to you,

Heartpain - I'll grant you that as a BS, my worldview is altered--perhaps permanently. This is a form of trauma that I've written about before.

And what you say all sounds fine in the abstract.

Please don't jump too quickly up on a pedastal, though:

<strong>Real spiritual strength comes from facing temptation and not succumbing, rather than avoidance.</strong>

Having an affair has little do with spiritual strength, but rather HUMAN weakness. King David, after all, had an A. No lack of spiritual strength there. Plenty of human weakness.

I think we all know where the line is. Yes, you can have lunch with a female co-worker. Even alone. But when it becomes a regular event, this is a clue. And, unless your Cleopatra ("queen of denial" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) you are aware of having an attraction for this person. The situation Babbalou was referring to, both of those were, in fact, at play (regularity, and attraction).

I don't think you need to stand on the railroad tracks facing an on-coming train to prove your reflexes. Neither should you knowingly put yourself into situations of temptation. Because, as I said, your human weakness is what causes you to sin. And me. And even King David.

Jesus Christ did not die on a cross to make you and I spiritually stronger. He did so to offer forgiveness for our human weakness. Spiritual strength is supposed to be there to help you make wise judgements, and to repent when you fail.

I'm unfortunately intimately familiar with this topic. My WW XW used to have male lunch buddies all the time. It made me uncomfortable and in hindsight I should have spoken my mind. I've gone to lunch with female co-workers but ALWAYS in a group. NEVER alone.

One time my XW saw me walking between buildings at work with a female co-worker. To this day she is convinced something is going on and that I want the female co-worker. Now this female co-worker is happily married with 4 children and she is 5 years older than me. Their is nothing, zip, zilch, the big goose egg!

I personally don't agree with one-on-one opposite sex outings except with relatives.

I would say that I am affair proof. I did not have an affair despite what my XW did to me and I would never subject anyone to the pain and suffering I have gone through. If I let a relationship get that bad again that is my fault. I will either work through it or move-on. I will not ever have an EA/PA.

I have the ability to enter into and leave any relationship with honor and integrity. No games. No cake walking.

Riff - First of all, we are all different. Just because I found that I didn't need to alter my worldview doesn't mean that it's true for everyone.

Maybe it's mincing words, but as far as "Having an affair has little do with spiritual strength..." I'm not religious, but I am spiritual. However, maybe I should have use the term "inner strength". Dr. Phil says that affairs happen because someone does not "protect his/herself". It turns out that the true weakness is not being susceptible to an affair, but not being able to prevent it from happening.

At various times in our lives, almost all of us are susceptible at some level or another to stray. If we are strong enough to "protect ourselves" then we never act in accordance with the temptation.

I realize everything is relative, but at which point do we decide to face temptation/adversity versus avoiding it? Facing up to our weaknesses isn't some macho demonstration of bravery/foolhardiness, but rather an affirmation that we control our own lives rather than letting situations or events control them.

Yes, there are times, situations and personalities that make it best to avoid opposite sex contact, but in the absence of those I(for myself) will not eliminate 60 percent of the human population from my potential friend pool.

"And, unless your Cleopatra ("queen of denial" [Big Grin] ) you are aware of having an attraction for this person." I, personally, find this very judgmental and wrong. There have been many times when I had lunch with FCWs(female co-workers) on a regular basis for periods of time and there was no sexual/relationship attraction. I am not saying there are not cases where what you say could be true(Emphasis added so that I'm not misunderstood).

If you follow the precepts of MB, you realize that, except for sociopaths, affair partners are engaged in their illicit activities because of unmet needs. As BSs and FBSs we should concentrate more on improving the quality of our marriages than focusing on the behavior and activities of our spouse. We don't have to like what they do, but until we have our own houses in order, we are just the "pot calling the kettle black".

"I don't think you need to stand on the railroad tracks facing an on-coming train to prove your reflexes" You are certainly right, but conversely, I shouldn't refuse to ever go anywhere near railroad tracks because of the possibility that I might be struck as I crossed. By permanently and completely avoiding the tracks I have restricted my life to an area bounded by railroads.

I think I'll just avoid the religious discussion, thanks....

Good discussion and thoughtful points, though, riff....

Heartpain - Some clarification...

I have no idea what it means to be spiritual but not religious. But that is really way off topic, so I'll just say I don't know what you mean by that.

<strong>Dr. Phil says that affairs happen because someone does not "protect his/herself". It turns out that the true weakness is not being susceptible to an affair, but not being able to prevent it from happening.</strong>

Sounds like Dr. Phil agrees w/ Babbalou: you should prevent an A from happening. And not putting yourself in a situation (on-going, one-on-one lunches w/ FCW, for example) sure sounds like prevention.

<strong>I realize everything is relative, but at which point do we decide to face temptation/adversity versus avoiding it?</strong>

Well, I think what I'm trying to say, is you when you find yourself tempted, you flee. You protect yourself. I don't think lunch w/ a FCW is temptation. But, you do know when you are being tempted, or attracted. It is those situations which from which you need to extricate yourself.

<strong>"And, unless your Cleopatra ("queen of denial" [Big Grin] ) you are aware of having an attraction for this person." I, personally, find this very judgmental and wrong. There have been many times when I had lunch with FCWs(female co-workers) on a regular basis for periods of time and there was no sexual/relationship attraction.</strong>

I wasn't saying you can't have lunch w/ a FCW without being attracted. I was saying you need to recognize when you're feeling attracted, and in that case, not play with fire.

<strong>"I don't think you need to stand on the railroad tracks facing an on-coming train to prove your reflexes" You are certainly right, but conversely, I shouldn't refuse to ever go anywhere near railroad tracks because of the possibility that I might be struck as I crossed. By permanently and completely avoiding the tracks I have restricted my life to an area bounded by railroads.
</strong>

As above, I'm not saying lock yourself in a closet and never come out. Nor am I saying to have no female friends. Nor did I say to avoid railroad tracks. I said, don't stand on them while facing an on-coming train.

The point is, don't tempt temptation. That doesn't mean that you can't have female friends.

That does mean, if you are feeling attracted, or if you put yourself in a situation where A PARTICULAR "friend" will be in a position to meet your unmet needs (and we all have some unmet needs from time to time), then you are "dancing with the devil" or "playing chicken on the railroad tracks." Or, more plainly, foolish to do so. And if you do that enough (I think Bobbalou's percentage of 1-in-10 may actually be pretty close here), you will end up in an A.

"Inner strength" (if you prefer) is the ability to hear the train a-comin', and to get off the tracks, and go home to your W.

Hey Riff,
I think we're pretty much on the same page here, so I won't belabour the point more....

It is OT, but maybe it will explain my position a little more....I am spiritual in that I pretty much believe in "extra-bodied" connectedness. That there is what is sometimes referred to as a "soul". However, I feel this way in exclusion of a "personified" supreme being, such as God, Jesus, Mohammed, etc., or a structured ritualized religion.

Most of my beliefs are based in the ideas of the Celts, Native Americans and Buddhists. I reject their respective "gods", but embrace the spirit of those religions and the concepts of "spirit"(not reserved exclusively for humans).

I discovered all this after rejecting anything remotely religious for years. I discovered the above and found it was the only way I could connect "spiritualism" and the way the universe seems to work. Even though it's diametrically opposed to your beliefs, I hope it explains my side a little better....

Peace

Heartpain-
Acutually, I haven't been burned by my spouse, and I have not had an EA. I am not really bitter about anything. And I am not opposed to opposite sex friendships, just to when this frienship seems to be gearing toward exclusiveness and without boundaries. Usually at work, the boundaries are broken down, so their really isn't any accountability. Your spouse is either at work or at home and knows nothing about whats going on. If you have no problem being honest about who you are having lunch with to your spouse, I would say you are on the right tract.

This website has made me more cautious about the dangers out there, and the boundaries I set for me are my personal choice--not to engage in these one on one lunches. I try not to judge others about their personal choices. I will give them my opinion though. To me I see it that these friendship can begin quite innocently it seems, but could turn bad fast. You have to have the appropriate boundaries to make it work. For me, I hope I don't come across as a cynic, that there should be absolutely no frienship of the opposite sex. For me, I realize I have many weaknesses, so maybe I create heavier boundaries for myself.

Robert

bobbalou - You are exactly right. Friendships can take an ugly turn if the appropriate boundaries are not in place.

"If you have no problem being honest about who you are having lunch with to your spouse, I would say you are on the right tract". Actually, the operative word here is "honest". As long as you are being totally honest, this includes no "lies by omission" about everything to your spouse, most major problems are nipped in the bud or never even get to the bud stage.

If you can answer "yes" to the question, "would I do this if my spouse were here?", then you should be pretty safe.

You are right to be cautious. One of the first and biggest casualties of an affair is the complete trust you once had in your spouse. In the vast majority of marriages whacked by infidelity, the trust level never comes back to the level it was before the affair. When I first heard this, it threw me for a loop.

After reading a whole lot about affairs, I understood that a lot of therapists believe that this is not necessarily such a bad thing. The reasoning is that the 100 percent trust level we had before was actually unrealistic considering the fact that we are all humans with human weaknesses and foibles. Just a little cynicism can be a healthy thing.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"One of the first and biggest casualties of an affair is the complete trust you once had in your spouse. In the vast majority of marriages whacked by infidelity, the trust level never comes back to the level it was before the affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh how right you are HP. My trust in my wife feels as though it has permanently changed. What's weird is that I don't think most of the WSs out there really comprehend or appreciate this. I don't think my wife does. But, I try not to dwell on it if I can - doing so seems to bring me down.

hg

<small>[ October 03, 2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: hg ]</small>

Easy solution folks (can't resist the chance to be the group [censored] today. I'm in a good mood): Only go to lunch with ugly people with terrible table manners and a penchant for picking their teeth with matchbooks while you eat. Nothing like getting a chunk of stray meat flying into your food to put off any thoughts of an affair.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled serious discussion...

Me, I'll NEVER go to lunch, dinner or otherwise with any woman I find even remotely attractive in any sense. I simply will not give myself the opportunity to take a bad day at home and use it as an excuse to make a bad rest of my life. I know it's oversimplifying, but I've done it in the past.

For me, it's not spiritual or religious or anything else. It's integrity, which is doing the right thing, even if no one is around to see you do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chorus:
<strong>It's integrity, which is doing the right thing, even if no one is around to see you do it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Chorus! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Our (my FWH and I) belief on this issue is: Abstain from any APPEARANCE of evil. (o.k., we borrowed that from God <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) To me, that means the way our actions appear to others DOES matter...even if our motives are innocent. Motives and attitudes have a way of changing -- believe me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

It's a shame we didn't make the decision to live that way BEFORE we had affairs, but, better late than never!

Lori

Chorus,

So what, you don't think that ugly, ill mannered, tooth picking people don't have affairs???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Shoot from some descriptions of OP on this web site, there are plenty who attract WS's.

Chorus - You'll change your tune when the lawyers from the PPADL(Pretty Peoples Anti-Defamation League) contact you about a discrimination lawsuit.....

To quote my favorite philosopher, Homer (Simpson):
D'oh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />