OH, forgot something in your plan. These are things you can do now.

Now, before OW comes to town… before anything else

Call and confront the OW. “Tell her that you love your H and that you want your marriage to survive. Tell her that she is contributing to the destruction of your home and your family.” If I were you I’d also call her husband. There is a very good chance that he does not agree to what she is doing, that they do not have an open marriage.

“ Confront the OW. Tell your children. Yes... tell them. They already know, so give them the gift of honesty. “

”Tell your parents and his. Tell your religious leader. Ask for their support in ending the A and saving your marriage.”

”Tell your friends and loved ones. “

”Yes, he will be angry. And this is the place where following the Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply. The marriage has already been breached. Telling is a way of stopping the bleeding so to speak. A way to end the A, to pick of the pieces of the destruction he is wreaking. “

”Affairs do not survive in the light of day. Doing everything you can to end it is encouraged. Once again, this is against every instinct we have, but it works.”

And girl, you need a support system badly.

Dear A:

You mention the look on your husband's face.... I can so relate to that! I remember once coming home from a trip with my children, having my STBX pick us up at the airport, and seeing a look on his face that spoke volumes. He looked as though he was wishing we had never come home. At the time I was unaware of his affair, and only knew that he was unhappy.

You are going through this awful time of waffling and "confusion" and "I don't know what I want" on your husband's part. I went through a very long period of identical behavior by my STBXH - almost 18 months' worth. I am so sorry you are in this place.

I have no real advice for you, just some words of experience. I think I waited way too long to initiate Plan B and I waited way too long to file for divorce. I can feel secure knowing that I did absolutely everything I could to keep my family together but I shouldn't have put up with the emotional abuse for such a long time. I should not have let him go on hurting me for months and months with his fence-sitting and whining about his soulmate. He actually had the nerve to say to me "I love OW, too, and I don't want to hurt her". OK, so you are going to hurt your wife of 19+ years and your 3 children instead.

Dr. Harley knows what he is talking about. A short period of Plan A is plenty. Just a thought.

I only have 5 minutes here, but I have read both of these threads - cerri's reply to you and "how to be a doormat in plan A" - I agree with both of them, and they have helped me feel better about my own situation. In my case, my H had 2 EA's within 18 months - in each case, I intervened - after I found out about the 2nd, I confronted the OW right away, and I plan A'd for almost 8 weeks - by then, I had evidence that his EA was ongoing and deepening - I saw a lawyer, and then told him he had to leave - it was either her or me - when i told him I was not mad, I was SURE of what I was doing, so I had no need to be mad. I had seen that look on his face that you are talking about for more than a year, but I can tell you the look on his face changed that week. I have never seen his look more miserable and scared when he realized he WAS going to lose everything. It was awful for him. But I could not take it any more. I have always been anxious that maybe I moved too quickly to plan B, but reading cerri's post has convinced me otherwise. By the end of that week, he had got himself into counselling. In my case, I was lucky - the OW returned to her home country 6 weeks later - and I just plan A'd my butt off - I didn't do a perfect job, but I did a good enough job - we are well into recovery - it is still rocky sometimes - like this week was horrible, but even then, we made it through that - and we LOVE each other again. The light in his eyes when he sees me is there again.

This is not for the faint-hearted - I knew when I asked him to leave that I really wanted him to go, and that I would live with that decision for the rest of my life. But I also knew it was the right one. He was not only hurting me, he was damaging our children. He is now learning to be different, we are both learning to be different - things are a lot better, and at least now, I can say that we have a chance.

Don't waffle - be strong, even though your heart is breaking. You aren't doing him any favours by letting him be a cakeman.

Hope this helps.

LIR

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Yes, the "look" is normal, the WS will act cold and look cold.

Remember, this is their feelings, you cannot control them, only what you do and how you act

Dont give in to the hatred, or believe it for one second, this is just their way of taking all of the guilt away from them. They feel so guilty about what they have done (they won't tell you this), and will portray that attitude.

My husband, when he slipped out of the fog about a month ago, admitted all of this to me. That it was all a front.

Hi A/C,

Just stopped in to check and see how you're doing. Here's some comments I have. First, your plan sounds good.

I would also do the things I suggested in my first post to you, which zorweb copied out and reposted.

But what I really want to talk about is the common misconception about LBers. You made the comment that no contact would be viewed as a LBer by your H. Technically, it's not. I know that a lot of posters talk about a LBer as anything that your spouse finds unpleasant. That's not the case. If it were, then honesty, especially radical honesty, would become impossible.

A Love Buster falls into one of these categories:

1. Demands. Insisting that your spouse do something for you regardless of how it would nakje him or her feel to do it. Refusing to accept "No," to your request, graciously. Either overtly or insinuating some threat if your wish is not comlied with.

There's a whole layer of subleties around Demands. And it is defined by the one being asked to do whatever. I tend to be VERY sensitive to demands. My H saying something like, we need to change the oil this weekend, or I need you to come and look at (whatever his current project might be) will almost always fall into the demand category for me.

Also, we cannot insist that our spouse NOT do something. Although technically this is not a Demand but a notification that they are in violation of POJA, unless you are both on the same page about that policy, it will be a LBer.

The way to avoid making demands is to state what it is you would like, and then to ASK, "How would you feel about doing______?" This statement forces you to take your spouse's feelings into acount, and to accept ,"No," courteously.

2. Disrespect. This is anything that imposes your value judgement on your spouse. It can be as small as rolling your eyes at something he/she says, or as large as name calling, put downs. One that is common for BS's is to question the WS's morals, standards, ethics, care of children.

While we may all agree with those assessments, to state them to your spouse is disrespectful. You can THINK whatever you want, but you need to monitor what comes out of your mouth.

3. Angry Outburst. Losing ones' temper and having a screeching tantrum is easy to recognize.
But an AO can be quiet and just as cutting. It's an action that is punishing in some way. (this does not include removing oneself from abuse or pain or neglect.... unless you hurl a rolling pin at his head on your way out the door.)

Threats are included in this category. So if you are planning to go to Plan B, then you need to make the plan and do it. Threatening would be an AO.

4. Annoying Habits. Things like slurping coffee, snoring, leaving your shoes all over the house, collecting junk. All these are annoying habits. Things you do that make your spouse insane with irritation.

5. Independent Behavior. Monday night football, affairs, shopping with the girls, hunting, your religious practices. Lifestyle choices that are planned and executed without the enthusiastic agreement of both parties. Business travel falls into this category.

6. Dishonesty. Leaving your spouse in the dark on any of these subjects: 1. past history 2. present activities 3. Daily plans and schedule 4. Future plans, hopes, dreams, 5. Feelings and reactions... particularly to your spouse's behavior 6. Anything else you know to be true about yourself

Now, no contact in order to protect yourself from further pain does not fall into one of those categories. Will he be unhappy with that? Duh!!! Of course he will. But his unhappiness will be the direct consequence of his betrayal of you and his vows.

You are not hurting him. He has chosen to hurt himself by hurting you. No one, and least of all Harley, believes that you should be in pain in order to save your marriage. If you ever get a chance to hear him, he speaks about this all the time. That his concern is with YOU, the BS. He does not want you to suffer any more than you already are.

If your H is unhappy with n/c, then it's up to him to do the things HE needs to do in order to have you in his life.

I hope that is helpful. I'll check back tomorrow and Tues. I will be gone the end of the week, but my thoughts will be with you.

Blessings,

Cerri

A/C hi, wrote you a note on my thread just wanted you to get it.
Sharon

Hi everyone...thanks so much for everyones replys, they mean such a great deal to me, when i feel like i am out of control with this situation. All your advice gives me hope. H is sick with a cold, so i am really planning aing him. I wouldnt mind being a doormat even if he did say he would try to end it with the OW. I am gonna leave it till he gets better, i think now i would be treading in more icy water, since he feels like crap. Better to wait for a couple of days till he is better. He is such a bear when he is sick. He really doesnt want to be here, he was cranky all weekend to the children, they couldnt do anything right. Once on the weekend he, even said in a whisper, "I'm moving out, these kids dont do anything to help out around here". (it is true, as much as i love my kids, they are on the lazy side, but that is my fault, i did everything for them always.)Anyway,thanks again, zorweb,cerri, and everyone else for helping me through this hell...A/C0810

Hi Ute....i know what you mean , i feel that same connection to you. I think we probably have the same lifestyle, age, etc.. I am a stay at home mom also, have always been since the day i found out i was first pregnant, i quit work and havent work sinced. My first is 15 years old now. So thats a long time to be out of the work force. I am completely dependent on my H, he pays all the bills, and gives me my grocery money, etc. Talk to you soon. God Bless you...A/C0810

Susan

Cerri, I have a question based upon the advice you have provided on this thread. What is the best way to ask WS for no contact? In my situation, WH is in early stages of recovery for alcoholism and was also diagnosed and is on meds for bipolar disorder. He is working his intensive outpatient treatment and 12 step program (see my post from today). Our life at home is now peaceful. I am doing a great Plan A - WH has noticed it and told others that he has noticed it, including our MC. I don't know for certain, but believe he is still in contact w/OW. In the past, I have demanded NC and our MC has told WH he had to decide, too. WH has insisted 14 times that he cut off contact only for me to find out differently. The last time was as recently as last week. How do you ask 1) if contact is still occurring; and 2) if so, for him to have no contact?

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-11 1/2 months
Status: One Day At A Time.

A/Co,

Your H's statement "I'm moving out, these kids dont do anything to help out around here". is about the foggiest thing I have heard. He can move out but he remains their father.

Doesn't he realize that if he moves out he'll have them for visitation, at which point YOU won't be there to balance out what the kids don't do? They'll be his entire responsibility for days on end!

If he does move out, I think one of the first things I'd do if I were you would be to set up a visitation schedule! Even if it is for evening and not overnight (assuming he probably won't have a suitable place for the kids to stay). Nothing like reality to start cutting through the fog.

In fact, it might be an idea to ask him now when he plans to see the kids during the OW's visit (hmmm, think about that one, it's certainly not being a doormat Plan A).

Don't worry about the look on his face, like others have said, my H had dark, unfamiliar expressions for nearly the whole 2 bad years, and I NEVER see those distant/distasteful/unapproachable looks on my H's face anymore.

Hi A/C,
Yes I think there are a lot similarities in our situation. My H also took care of most things. I stayed at home. My kids are lazy too. It is one of the luxuries of having Mom at your beckon call. I was also at my H's beckon call. I think he took advantage of my giving nature, and now I get slapped in the face with it. I think your H like mine, believe we will always be there for them, because we are so dependent on them and afraid of life alone. I can't tell you how many times I told my H that I didn't know what I'd do without him. In a way I think that me being so dependent made him feel even more trapped and burdened in our M. I think it is one of the reasons he ran. It is one of the changes I am making. Even if H comes back, which I am beginning to doubt more and more, I will never be dependent on him again. I will give my all to my R and to him, but I will show that I am capable of being independent. I think it is called being interdependent, where you are independent but mature enough to share and grow with someone else, beyond dependency, beyond independence to synergy, where you work together. We did not work together. He decided and I did. Like it or not. And if I did something he didn't like he let it boil away inside until it boiled over into his leaving. Anyway, A/C, I am here for you. Know that I think about you and care. I know it is a hard, horrible time. I wish I was one of the people who could give advice but I am still learning. Just take care of yourself.

Sharon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong>Cerri, I have a question based upon the advice you have provided on this thread. What is the best way to ask WS for no contact? In my situation, WH is in early stages of recovery for alcoholism and was also diagnosed and is on meds for bipolar disorder. He is working his intensive outpatient treatment and 12 step program (see my post from today). Our life at home is now peaceful. I am doing a great Plan A - WH has noticed it and told others that he has noticed it, including our MC. I don't know for certain, but believe he is still in contact w/OW. In the past, I have demanded NC and our MC has told WH he had to decide, too. WH has insisted 14 times that he cut off contact only for me to find out differently. The last time was as recently as last week. How do you ask 1) if contact is still occurring; and 2) if so, for him to have no contact?

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-11 1/2 months
Status: One Day At A Time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey BB...

Sorry I didn't see this on my quick read through yesterday. And thanks to A/C for finding me and pointing it out.

Well first, congrats on the alcohol recovery, that's a big step. I hope you are showing your appreciation and support.

You don't say how long the A went on, or if it was an EA or a PA. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference... I just tend to be wildly curious.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So, as I've said a bazillion times, here/there/everywhere.... Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. You do that by doing YOUR part in fixing what was wrong with the M. And you let your spouse know that's your intention and what you are working towards.

Part of Plan A is being honest. Almost universally one of the BIG things that was wrong with the marriage was a lack of honesty. Plans and activities for sure, but even more so, our reactions to our spouse's decisions and behavior.

That's where the answer to your question comes in. How do you ask for n/c? First you are honest about how you feel when there is contact. That you are offended, hurt beyond belief, terribly frightened, and deeply sad. EVERY TIME.

If he calls her... you say it. If he sees her daily at work, then you say it daily. Not in a way that is angry or judgemental. It has to be factual. "I'm hurt and offended that you will be seeing _____." "Your work/recreation/emotional/whatever realtionship with______ is very painful to me. It hurts more than anything else you could do."

These are factual statements. They are not judgemental. You are not calling names... him or her.... you are not questioning anyone's morals, values, priorities, ability to think. Simply the facts about how you feel.

Now, I know it sounds easy, and I know it's way harder than that to do. Been there!! So, practice in the mirror. Write what you are going to say. Do it until you get it right. But tell him.

Next comes asking. Ask him to end the contact. This gets trickier, because you get into the murky waters of demands. So you need to keep it as a request.

"I'd really like you to find another job, quit the bowling league, not go to that bar.... so that you don't have contact with______. It hurts me when you do." "Please don't call_____. It is very painful for me when you speak to her."

Again, all of this is about what you want and how you feel. It is not saying that there is something wrong with him or his judgement because he does these things. (Granted, we might all agree that there IS... but as a spouse, you don't get to say that.)

If honesty and asking for what you want, combined with Plan A, don't get you where you need to be, then it's time for Plan B.

Plan A should have a 6 month time limit at the MOST for men. (Harley said that yesterday on the radio, and it's what I've been preaching forever) Women generally do a good Plan A for about 3 WEEKS.

Now, if contact has lessened, or if he is willing to discuss what recovery would look like, then I think there's some basis for sticking it out longer, because you are seeing progress.

Remember, it's a process. It's not going to be perfect overnight. You might feel like in the day to day nothing is changing. But when you look back you can see that it is getting better. That's what you want.

If he's in a 12 step program, wow, there should be some accountability along the "harm none" lines. Most are pretty slanted that way, but I don't know how that would pertain to affairs. They also tend to be heavy on the honesty thing.

How to ask if he still sees her? Just ask. "Have you seen/spoken to _____ today?" is perfectly acceptable. So is snooping. Ideally he should be telling you daily whether there was contact or not, and whether he was tempted even to see/speak to her.

Hope that helps, I'm gone tomorrow through Sun. let me know what else I can do.

C