Ok, well the rollercoaster never ends it seems. I helped WW buy all the items she needed for her new place. I bought a tv, dvd, player, vacuum cleaner, bunk beds for the kids, box springs for her bed, microwave, etc. Paid first months rent, gave her $1,700.00 to help get her started. Even sent her flowers yesterday b/c she was feeling down. We held each other Wednesday night. She said she wanted too. Wanted to know if she could call my in the middle of the night. Wanted to know if I would ever come to her place and sleep in her bed with her. Went to her place last night to put her desk together and her computer. When I left she was crying b/c the kids were coming with me. She said she was sure she would be calling my tonight i said that would be fine. WELL, no phone call of course b/c she was talking to OM all night. She called in the morning to tell me to get the kids ready for their pictures at school, she seemed to be ok. Talked with OM, who informed me they had talked all night. She called back and said her printer wasn't working, so I told her to let OM help her and hung up. I wen to her new place and confronted her and told her I was done being a doormat to her. That I feel she used me to get the things she needed and had no intention of trying to work things out. I told her I was done helping her. No more money, no more help. Right now I want nothing to do with her. I don't want to see her and I don't want to talk to her. I need at least a month away from her. I have to let her go. Right now OM can have her. It's funny b/c she is stil lying to him. I found out from some friends today that she has been out dancing and that she was even talking to other guys. Supposedly she even gave her phone number to one. Well, that has done it for me. he can have her. OM will just have to find out on his own. He will and will he be surprised, Can't wait. But for me, I'm done being a doormat. I'm done being lied to by everyone. She will crash and burn. Her family has said that if she goes through with this they will have nothing to do with her. And, man do I believe them. Oh well I will let him deal with that one. I need time to think. I wish he would give her time,b/c she needs it for whatever decision she makes. But, I know he won't, he'll push her or she'll push him. And the sad part is my kids will suffer the consqeuences. My youngest cried himself to sleep in my arms asking when his mom was coming home. I told her this morning and all she said was well you knew that was going to happen. No emotion, nothing. The weekend she is supposed to go to see Om, she is supposed to have the kids. She will have to find someplace for them. I can't believe she will skip her weekend with them to go see him. I hurt for them so bad right now. I look in their eyes and can't believe she can hurt them like this. She is convinced that they will be "fine."
Anyhow, no more ranting. I will not be a doormat anymore. He can have all of her problems. He can deal with them.

TORO

TORO:

Okay, brace yourself for some compliments AND a smack upside the head with a mackerel from ol' 2long:

"Ok, well the rollercoaster never ends it seems."

This is true. And I've been told it can go on for YEARS, so brace yourself for that, up front.

"I helped WW buy all the items she needed for her new place. I bought a tv, dvd, player, vacuum cleaner, bunk beds for the kids, box springs for her bed, microwave, etc. Paid first months rent, gave her $1,700.00 to help get her started. Even sent her flowers yesterday b/c she was feeling down. We held each other Wednesday night. She said she wanted too. Wanted to know if she could call my in the middle of the night. Wanted to know if I would ever come to her place and sleep in her bed with her. Went to her place last night to put her desk together and her computer. When I left she was crying b/c the kids were coming with me. She said she was sure she would be calling my tonight i said that would be fine."

All this you did very well. Exemplary, in fact.

"WELL, no phone call of course b/c she was talking to OM all night. She called in the morning to tell me to get the kids ready for their pictures at school, she seemed to be ok."

She seemed 2 be okay because she got her "EN fix" from talking 2 OM. It's like shooting up, though, and it won't last. I'm not even sure why she called HIM, unless for some reason she was afraid 2 call you? It might not have anything 2 do with you, though.

"Talked with OM, who informed me they had talked all night."

I think it's time you evaluate the value of communication with OM. He might be playing you. If he really wants it 2 end with your W, why the he!! did he talk 2 her on the phone all night long? I can't remember, is he M'd? Does his W know yet? Consider politely informing him that he should consider HER possible reaction 2 discovering his A. That might put the fear in him that she might eventually find out, without actually threatening him.

"She called back and said her printer wasn't working, so I told her to let OM help her and hung up."

I understand this hurts, but I think this was the wrong way 2 react. You have every right 2 tell her 2 solve her printer problems herself, but I wouldn't do or say ANYTHING that she might misconstrue as "premission" 2 resume her A.

"I wen to her new place and confronted her and told her I was done being a doormat to her. That I feel she used me to get the things she needed and had no intention of trying to work things out. I told her I was done helping her. No more money, no more help. Right now I want nothing to do with her. I don't want to see her and I don't want to talk to her. I need at least a month away from her. I have to let her go. Right now OM can have her."

All this stuff is BAD! YES, you have a right 2 NOT be a doormat any longer, but remember THE BEST PLAN A WON'T SUBJECT YOU 2 BEING A DOORMAT. IT WILL HELP YOU RECOVER WHILE SHOWING YOUR W NOTHING BUT LOVE - NO LOVE BUSTING ALLOWED! Sorry for yelling. I KNOW this hurts, but confronting her won't help the si2ation.

"It's funny b/c she is stil lying to him."

Of course she is. AND 2 you. AND 2 herself! She won't want 2 keep this up indefinitely. This is where being patient comes in.

"I found out from some friends today that she has been out dancing and that she was even talking to other guys. Supposedly she even gave her phone number to one."

This is disappointing, 2 say the least. But it's no less a desparate grab for another fantasy rather than facing her problems than the A is.

"Well, that has done it for me. he can have her. OM will just have to find out on his own. He will and will he be surprised, Can't wait. But for me, I'm done being a doormat. I'm done being lied to by everyone. She will crash and burn."

Like I said, don't be a doormat. But DON'T stop plan Aing, either! This is all still "new" 2 you. You have a lot 2 learn about YOU during this time apart.

"Her family has said that if she goes through with this they will have nothing to do with her. And, man do I believe them."

Family doesn't understand. My daughter threatened 2 never speak 2 my W again if she wouldn't give up Rat Meat, but it didn't take long before they were doing things 2gether again.

"Oh well I will let him deal with that one. I need time to think."

I agree.

"I wish he would give her time,b/c she needs it for whatever decision she makes. But, I know he won't, he'll push her or she'll push him."

Again, if he's M'd and his W doesn't know, consider informing her, but ONLY if you are sure it won't drive OM in2 your W's arms! Be careful, in short!!

"And the sad part is my kids will suffer the consqeuences. My youngest cried himself to sleep in my arms asking when his mom was coming home."

This is the worst part about an A. My son still doesn't "know" but I bet he's figuring it out. On the other hand, we're doing a lot better, and so I believe that our family will remain intact and happy even2ally. It took ME 8 months 2 get 2 this point, though. It may take you as long or longer, TORO.

"I told her this morning and all she said was well you knew that was going to happen. No emotion, nothing."

Because she's resigned herself 2 her fog for solace. Think about it. She'd go nuts alone like that if she was already showing signs of falling apart BEFORE she left. I think you should just put on your cast iron underwear and do everything you can 2 stop LBing completely when you speak 2 her again. Make her feel safe with you! In all probability, even though you helped her move, she didn't feel safe enough 2 call YOU that night, and called OM (who puts no pressure on her... ...yet) for comfort.

"The weekend she is supposed to go to see Om, she is supposed to have the kids. She will have to find someplace for them."

YOU take them!

"I can't believe she will skip her weekend with them to go see him. I hurt for them so bad right now. I look in their eyes and can't believe she can hurt them like this. She is convinced that they will be "fine." "

She has 2 tell herself this, or she'd really be messed up. Keeps her world from falling apart.

"Anyhow, no more ranting."

Feel free 2 rant all you want, but do it HERE, not 2 HER!

"I will not be a doormat anymore. He can have all of her problems. He can deal with them. "

He should have 2, IF she really thinks she wants 2 be with him. But from what you've said so far, she appears 2 want YOU, in the end, at least. Don't push her 2ward him. Love her as part of a good plan A. Let her have ONLY positive things 2 say/think about you from now on.

TORO.

Listen to 2Long, the gnarly dude knows what he speaketh of.

I'll post the old Shadows (from Babylon 5) question to you, WHAT DO YOU WANT?

Do you want to end your M? then go to an attorney and start filing divorce papers.

Or

Do you want to save your M? Then follow the MB principles and methodology.

In any case, you have to decide one way or another and stick to it.

TORO - Bro, I feel for you. I have no experience here. I know you're angry. You have a right to be. (I don't think the other guys are telling you that you don't have a right to be).

Hang in there. Don't expect any miracles or overnight changes (I think, deep down you probably set yourself up here, expecting big changes right away).

For 2Long & CoffeeMan:

<strong>"I helped WW buy all the items she needed for her new place. I bought a tv, dvd, player, vacuum cleaner, bunk beds for the kids, box springs for her bed, microwave, etc. Paid first months rent, gave her $1,700.00 to help get her started. Even sent her flowers yesterday b/c she was feeling down. We held each other Wednesday night. She said she wanted too. Wanted to know if she could call my in the middle of the night. Wanted to know if I would ever come to her place and sleep in her bed with her. Went to her place last night to put her desk together and her computer. When I left she was crying b/c the kids were coming with me. She said she was sure she would be calling my tonight i said that would be fine."

All this you did very well. Exemplary, in fact.</strong>

Can you explain this to me? So, she moves out, and he goes and buys her "presents" and even pays the rent.

I mean, I've not been through a separation, but this seems to me to be enabling. I thought I understood Plan A was to "allow" WS to experience life w/out BS, but not to aid it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding... I DO understand that the BS is not to use this as punishment, and is to show their best self. But, jeez, isn't all this unsolicited financial help out of bounds?

Riff,

I'm way newer than those other two giving advice, however, I once read a post from someone that was actually counseling with Steve Harley. In it they made the same statement. They felt like their efforts during Plan A, were enabling the affair. Steve's response (if memory serves) was that if it felt that way then they were doing a good job of Plan Aing.

Just my 2 cents.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For 2Long & CoffeeMan:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I helped WW buy all the items she needed for her new place. I bought a tv, dvd, player, vacuum cleaner, bunk beds for the kids, box springs for her bed, microwave, etc. Paid first months rent, gave her $1,700.00 to help get her started. Even sent her flowers yesterday b/c she was feeling down. We held each other Wednesday night. She said she wanted too. Wanted to know if she could call my in the middle of the night. Wanted to know if I would ever come to her place and sleep in her bed with her. Went to her place last night to put her desk together and her computer. When I left she was crying b/c the kids were coming with me. She said she was sure she would be calling my tonight i said that would be fine."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All this you did very well. Exemplary, in fact.

Can you explain this to me? So, she moves out, and he goes and buys her "presents" and even pays the rent.

I mean, I've not been through a separation, but this seems to me to be enabling. I thought I understood Plan A was to "allow" WS to experience life w/out BS, but not to aid it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding... I DO understand that the BS is not to use this as punishment, and is to show their best self. But, jeez, isn't all this unsolicited financial help out of bounds?

Riff</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Riff If I remember correctly it was TORO himself who insisted on the separation. But he still loves his WW very much and wants her to want to come back to him not because of fear but because she loves him more than OM. So it stands to reason that he felt obligated to make sure she did become destitute when she left, and thus bought all those things and gave her money, to help her stand up on her own two feet. Remember that besides being his W, the woman he loves, she is also the mother of his children and he doesn't want her to suffer.

Personally I beleive that kicking her out the house was a bad idea because it makes plan A very difficult to implement if she is not there to have her EN's met by him. And also she will not be there to witness the changes he makes to himself and he won't get a chance to practice his non love busting dialog with her.

As far as enabling her, I would say that it depends. If he is in plan A, then I would say the answer is no because he is supposed to try to meet all the EN that she allows him to meet. But if he's in plan B, the I would say yes he's enabling her because those actions of his are sabotaging his efforts in letting OM fulfill all her EN's.

Hope it helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Personally I beleive that kicking her out the house was a bad idea because it makes plan A very difficult to implement if she is not there to have her EN's met by him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it a bad idea? While they are living together it's hard not to LB. Now TORO is focusing on him, that's what plan A is all about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I helped WW buy all the items she needed for her new place </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. Makes you feel like an loser, I know.

Hang in there

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally I beleive that kicking her out the house was a bad idea because it makes plan A very difficult to implement if she is not there to have her EN's met by him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it a bad idea? While they are living together it's hard not to LB. Now TORO is focusing on him, that's what plan A is all about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it isn't what plan A is all about. Plan A is about trying to negotiate an end to the A and to meet all the EN's of the WS WITHOUT LOVE BUSTERS. It's also about creating an emotionally safe environment where the WS can feel s/he can be honest about expressing his/her feelings to the BS. If all these things are not done, then he is NOT doing plan A at all.

If he is serious about following MB's plan A/plan B for marital recovery, then he has to follow the plans to the letter. Winging it is not part of plan A/plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From Harleys' Article on Plan A.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wanted to make bold one of the things that is often overlooked in the Plan. I think most BS would agree that Plan A of just about ANY sort, feels a hell of a lot one sided. This is one of the reasons we eventually are to move to Plan B.

Harley does not teach(or at least he didn't use to)that one should remain in Plan A while the WS flaunts the affair in front of our faces. Harley teaches that we are to move to Plan B, and eventually even D.I.V.O.R.C.E, in the face of continued infedility.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot
control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of
those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical
and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as
risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one
spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through
negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is
made to overcome the abuse without separating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what happens when you don't get the priveledge to negotiate with the WS? Seems pretty clear to me. But only you (Toro) can decide when you have had enough. Only you can answer if you are happy enough with whatever Plan A you did. If anyone tells you to keep on Plan A'ing/B'ing in the face of continued infedility, don't listen to them.
Only you know when you have had enough.

Best of luck

jd