WH came home last Sunday after spending a month with OW. He had said in his last note that he was only coming home to pack some things and then go back to the States. I had asked him to join me on a backpacking trip instead, and he said that he would "think about it". That was the situation before he arrived home on Sunday.

On Sunday & Monday, we spent 2 days together with me in full Plan A. The 1st day I did rather well by meeting him at the airport, having a nice dinner ready for him, spending the evening in pleasant conversation. We both enjoyed it, though he was definitely unaffectionate.

On the 2nd day I asked him again about the camping trip. He finally said no - he didn't want to lead me on and give me false hopes and act like we are going to stay together when we aren't. God, did that hurt to hear him say that! Then he said he'd booked tickets to return to the States on Friday (yesterday) & that he would stay at the apartment only long enough to pack some things.

Then we started talking - really talking - about what was going on. He explained again how and when he'd lost his feelings for me and why he wanted out of our marriage. I cried and told him I knew how badly I'd treated him and how I wished I could take it all back now. For the first time he actually heard me, altho I've been saying this for the past couple months. But this time he heard, and he said that he wished I'd been like this back in August when it might have changed things. (I don't believe it would have changed anything, as he has been too far gone in the Fog to change anything.)

Then he told me he could see I was at peace, even though he could tell I was also hurting. He asked if that peacefulness was the result of counseling and asked me why it was helping. I told him yes, I'd come a long way through both my IC and MB. I'd found that there are lots of people out there who have gone thru what we have, and worse, and survived and restored their M's. And I said the biggest thing in bringing me peace had been the realization about what I could and could not control - I couldn't change him, only myself, and realizing that had freed me. He said he could tell I had come so far and had changed a great deal. But he said it was too late for him - he hadn't changed and might not be able to. He thought he was incapable of having a good relationship and thought he hadn't learned anything from his mistakes. I got the impression listening to him that he just didn't care enough to change. Or at least didn't think it mattered enough to change.

He asked me what I would want from him if he stayed. And I said, stay here with me this month, let's really try to work on our M and see a MC and just try. He didn't respond to that.

We talked off and on throughout that 2nd day. Later that evening we drank a bottle of wine, and I told him all about my insights from C and from MB. I kept asking him if I should shut up, if he really wanted to hear this, and he kept telling me to go on and talk. So I told him about the Fog (it got him mad to hear about that), and about how others also had OC and OW to deal with and coped in various way (he wanted to know all the ways how). And I told him my amazing insights about how I'd been Love Busting out the kazoo and never even realized it. And I also told him about my most amazing insight - that I thought I'd figured out his primary EN - domestic support. That got his attention, he sat up and said "yeah!", and that really sparked a long discussion.

Finally, after we were talked out, I asked him if he was planning to file for D once he got back to the States. He said yes, that had been his original intention, but now he was re-thinking things after our last 2 days together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Why does he do this to me??? Why can't he just make up his mind and do it? I asked him if he was wanting to file just to make a decision. He admitted that was the reason - he wanted to stop this constant indecision and wanted to stop hurting everyone, including himself. I assured him that as for me, I could take the pain so don't do it on my account. But his admission scares me. I know my WH, and he would file for D just to make a decision, even if it's the wrong one.

The next morning I left for my backpacking trip. I asked him if he wanted me to stay with him, but he said no, he wanted me to go and have fun with my friends. So I did. It killed me to leave him, knowing that he would be there for 2 days and I wouldn't be able to see him, and that when I returned he'd be gone. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I returned home yesterday to find he had taken all his software, a couple of technical books, and a shortwave radio. Nothing else. Of course, he could only take what would fit in 1 suitcase, and it would be horrendously expensive to ship things back to States, so the fact that he didn't take anything doesn't mean much. He did leave some dirty underwear on the floor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and my razor on the sink where he'd used it to shave <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

I don't know what to do now. I feel like I'm back at square 1. I can't stop crying and part of my soul has been torn out. I want to stick with Plan A, even if it will be long-distance. I want our M back, I want my H back. But it seems hopeless - he seems stuck on this destructive path of destroying everyone, including himself.

I know what I should be doing, and I really am trying to focus on myself, get out and do things, stop thinking about WH. But nothing really helps. I think for the first time I really do believe it's over. And not having that hope inside to keep me going is causing so much pain.

Sorry for the long post but I really need to understand where WH is coming from. Does any of this sound familiar to those of you who have had their WS's come back? Is there any hope left? Or am I in a Fog too? I need some advice, or some support, or a little of both. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ October 04, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

SH94,

This 'coaster ride is 3 ways. You, your H and OW ... ups and downs and churn your tummy inside out. It is very good if your H is confused !!!! your plan A is working !!!!. You are not LB'ed by telling your H about MB and C ... you are fine talking R !!! Your H is the one who control the boundry of LB. In MB we usually don't bring R first since most likely BS will LB'ed.

Don't get despair and take one day at the time and remember that WS is in control of this 'coaster. IMVHO, you has planned a seed of doubt that he will carry and think about it for a while. Keep your plan A ... w/ no LB'ed. Show it to your H that you are changed or could changed. Good job. -RH-

Redhat, thanks for the lift - you seemed to instinctively know what my biggest fears were and put them to rest. I didn't LB once and I am proud of that. WH kept commenting on how much I'd changed. He truly seemed awed that I maintained my cool the whole time.

But after my latest round of snooping this evening, I'm not sure if I want to hold on to that bit of hope you gave me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Seems that WH has given OW his check card so she can continue making cash w/d while he's out of country. I saw a $500 w/d was made from his account on Monday, a day he was here with me. From a bank at his work location. Now I know why the $10,000 in w/d this last month - it wasn't WH, it was her!

Am I terribly mercenary to focus on this money issue? Is it really that important? Or am I right in feeling like this is a bigger violation of our marriage than the sex? He's taking our savings, our future, our dreams, and handed it over to this two-bit wh*re to squander. He's given her access to his body, his home and now his money. There's nothing else left - she's got more of him than I do. He's essentially treating her like she's his wife, and I'm nothing but a used-up rag to be tossed aside as soon as the paperwork can be filed.

I was really thinking there might be some hope. But now, after this, I'm ready to give up. It seems like every time I turn around I find another bit of evidence that he's trying to break free from me. And I can't take any more of his lies and abuse and continued mockery of our M. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Is this just one more thing that I have to deal with while WH is in the Fog? Is that all it is?

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

SH94 -- Your post really struck me. I know you feel that he has betrayed more than just sex and has "given her access to home, money, etc". I think we all feel that way (at least I do). In some ways it is the violation of what had been our life together more than the sex. I think you know what I mean. I feel as if two people without much thought destroyed my dreams. It sounds as if you feel the same way.

However, I will tell you that no matter how it appears or how we feel sometimes, you have something they cannot ever take away from you that is a far greater gift. You have integrity and you are standing for your marriage in the face of great pain and uncertainty. It takes a courage and strength neither of them possess.

My heart goes out to you. I think you did VERY well on his two day visit. You were able to be very honest without LBing. Incredible feat my friend.

I'll check in later in the weekend. It sounds like you are having a bad day/low point (and I know what that feels like -- your situation closely parallels mine), but your first post sounded strong and I hope your day gets better.

SH94 I'm so sorry to hear about your H's behavior regarding the money and 'rethinking about divorce'. Your H is obviously in cake walking mode and you may have to consider going into plan B. To refresh your memory, plan B is not about giving up and subsequently filing for divorce (although divorce may eventually happen) it is to separate you from the A by having ALL of your H's EN's met by the OW. It starts with a love letter explaining how much you love him, but that in order to preserve what love you have for him, it is necessary for you to stop all contact with him until he ends his A with the OW and wants to come back to work on the M with counseling as part of a plan of marital recovery.

You seem to have done a great plan A, but plan A is not meant to go on indefinetely because of the danger of losing all your love for your H, and then making reconciliation impossible if he truly wants to come back to you and earnestly work his butt off to rebuild the M.

Saving a M is a two step process. The first step is to end the A with no more contact with the OP, and the second step is to rebuild the M thru a plan of marital recovery that includes counseling. Often people, like yourself, beleive that if the A ends that the recovery will be a lot easier. Nothing can be further from the truth because the recovery can be just as hard and sometimes more so, than the enduring of an ongoing A because of issues of anger and resentment especially on the part of the BS that can sabotage and doom the M.

Plan B's ultimate purpose is to help the reconciliation and recovery step of the fight to save the M.

SH94,

Snooping is very dangerous to our LB$. If you are not carefull it will suck your LB$ in no time. This is my take ... he gave the card probably a month ago. I know you feel terribly violated but you did a very good plan A and don't let this one get to you. Just keep monitoring what WH will do once the $$$ is running low. Let OW LB'ed to H not you over this problem. BE SMART ABOUT IT. Don't take it personally. If you want to save your M please read Being a good Doormat by Bramble Rose. Remember rule of snooping ... you can not use the information against your WH, you only could use it to monitor if your plan A is working.

-RH-

No word from WH, tho I didn't really expect any. I have started coming out of my latest depression, with a little help from my friends and the support of those of you here on this site. What a Godsend you all have been to me.

Redhat: Thanks for putting the money issue in perspective for me. I still feel violated, but like you said, I can't take it too personally. I just keep telling myself WH has gone crazy, and even the court systems use insanity as a valid defense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Boy, you are so right about snooping being dangerous to our LB$ though! I've been snooping mainly to protect myself, and also to keep from getting false hopes. But whenever I find out the worst (which happens more often than not), I hit a new low.

Coffee: Whenever I get into these low periods, like just now after finding out about the check card, I start thinking it's time for Plan B. But I really don't think it is time yet. When WH arrived here last week, he was fully intending to file for D. Then he spent 2 days here with me and said it made him re-think filing. So that must mean my Plan A is working, right? Shouldn't I keep it up at least a while longer, to let it really sink in? I gave myself till the end of October to do this Plan A - I thought that would give WH and myself both time to realize that the changes are real. And I don't feel in danger of losing my love for him. Nor of LB'ing.

I've now got 2 big questions:

Firstly, what is a "Plan A" when he's in the States, I'm on the other side of the world, and the last thing he said was he wanted to file for D? Do I send him a friendly e-mail asking how things are back home in the States (he's staying on our farm, with our animals, whom I dearly love and want to hear about)? Should I send him pictures of the backpacking trip I just went on (and which I'd invited him on)? Or should I not say anything unless WH initiates contact?

Secondly, any advice on the legal end? I did retain a lawyer last time I was in the States, just in case. Should I start anything there with my lawyer? Or wait for WH to initiate all legal transactions on the Divorce side, and then just respond to whatever he starts?

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SH94:
<strong>I've now got 2 big questions:
Firstly, what is a "Plan A" when he's in the States, I'm on the other side of the world, and the last thing he said was he wanted to file for D? Do I send him a friendly e-mail asking how things are back home in the States (he's staying on our farm, with our animals, whom I dearly love and want to hear about)? Should I send him pictures of the backpacking trip I just went on (and which I'd invited him on)? Or should I not say anything unless WH initiates contact?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First ... keep the line of contact open, this is your only life line. Don't LB'ed ... don't say anything that you don't mean too. Follow the plan A gudeline ... don't bring up R, if you use to say I love you at the end of the phone conversation, keep doin it. What is your plan A ?. You have to show somehow you change or in the process of changing. Think and write down on what you want to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Secondly, any advice on the legal end? I did retain a lawyer last time I was in the States, just in case. Should I start anything there with my lawyer? Or wait for WH to initiate all legal transactions on the Divorce side, and then just respond to whatever he starts?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, you get legal consel to educate you about your legal & financial right asap, you might need it. It took 7 months before my WS filed on me after she retained a lawyer and told me to Dv. Yes you wait on WH to initate the Dv and yes you need to get legal advice !. You know that you need to be residence for a period of time before you could file under that state therefore you have legal complication !.

-RH-

OK, RH, I'm keeping the line of communications open. Today I sent WH a nice newsy note about my activities, asked about his trip back to the States, then signed off with "I love you" just like always. This has been my first contact with him since I left for my backpacking trip a week ago & since he got back to the States. One reason I sent the note was because I'd again built up my hopes - a friend back home who'd just talked to him said WH sounded really confused & unsure about what he wanted to do (re the Dv) and that I should keep hoping.

And what do I get in return? A note so filled with coldness I almost froze reading it. For the first time ever, WH didn't start his note with an affectionate greeting. Nor did he sign off with "Love". Instead it was very matter-of-fact, distant, uncaring, almost angry. He sounded like some hateful monster, and this change in attitude has all happened in the space of a few days, without anything on my side to trigger it! What is going on with him? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

One of our cats died the morning WH got back to our farm, that was 5 days ago, and he didn't even have the decency to let me know when it happened!! Instead he mentions it very matter-of-factly in this note as tho it has no meaning to him. And he LOVED this cat - he was his BUDDY!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He also said he had dinner at our best friends' house and that the wife seems to be very angry at him. (I told him I've told her everything.) I keep wondering if that's what set him off. Finally, he said something nasty about my daughter (not his D - she's from my previous M) and how she'd trashed our place while she was there last month. Then he said "but far be it from me to say anything bad about her. I don't want it said that I treat people like dirt." That was in reference to a comment I made a month ago during a really bad LB, when I'd accused him of being a liar and a cheat and treating everyone around him like dirt. He's hurled that last comment back at me several times since then - it must have really hit him where it hurts.

I guess I can find some threads of hope here. He didn't have to respond to my note at all. But he did - and in fact did so very soon after I wrote *my* note. This is also one of the longest notes he's ever written - lots of news. But there's so much more negative here that I feel like giving up again. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Please, can someone explain to me what's going on???? Why this instant turnaround in his attitude? Why is he sounding so mean and awful? He's never acted this way to me before. And it seems to come out of thin air! I've plunged back into the blackest depression. Is it possible for the WS to get so cold & unfeeling even tho I haven't done anything? Is he trying to make me realize he does want this Dv?? Or is this more of the confusion on his part? I guess I am looking for some hope even in the darkness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I also have another question - what about WH's continual reference to my comment about how he treats people like dirt? Should I say something about that, since he keeps bringing it up? Should I apologize to him for saying it? (but why? it's true!) Or apologize for the fact that he does treat people like dirt and that I mentioned it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ October 08, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

SH94,

What is your plan A ?, what list of actions that you need to do for yourself ?. Have you complete it all ?. WH is cold to you after his ENs is fullfill by OW. When OW is away then WH will be a bit warm to you. Listen, this is a roller coaster ride of your life. It will churned your tummy inside out, get med if you need it. For now like TMCM point out, your WH is a cakeman, you might have to do either tough love or plan B. However you should take this chances to do plan A the best you can !. It helps you out for your next relationship if you are Dv and it build a good solid plan B !.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I also have another question - what about WH's continual reference to my comment about how he treats people like dirt? Should I say something about that, since he keeps bringing it up? Should I apologize to him for saying it? (but why? it's true!) Or apologize for the fact that he does treat people like dirt and that I mentioned it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is LB'ed ... you 've judged him. Be smart, you are not his mother to teach him manners ... stop comenting or teaching WH !.

-rh-

Redhat, you said:
" WH is cold to you after his ENs is fullfill by OW. When OW is away then WH will be a bit warm to you. "
I guess that could be so. Except right now WH is back in the States at our permanent home during his month off. OW is in her own country (WH's work location). And I'm living in yet another country. So he's got neither one of us, and he's probably thinking & brooding, and any EN's being met are thru e-mails only. Mine and OW's. How would his being separated from both of us cause him to do this 180???

" This is LB'ed ... you 've judged him. Be smart, you are not his mother to teach him manners ... stop comenting or teaching WH !. "
I know, I know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I said that to him (about his treating people like dirt) a month ago, when I was still doing a bad Plan A. And that LB precipitated his "I want a divorce" note to me. Still haven't heard the end of it and I was just wondering if it was best to let him keep brooding about my comment or address it head on.

" What is your plan A ?, what list of actions that you need to do for yourself ?. Have you complete it all ?. "
Good questions, RH. I have thought about it, mapped out a plan (I'm an engineer after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), and I think it makes sense. Tell me what you think.

1) read everything & learn. Did that, doing that, continuing to read and re-read and re-re-read.

2) figure out how I contributed to demise of our M. Done some hard thinking here - I realized I was really bad to him for past few years - I was the LB Queen. Abandoned him emotionally for a long time. And I've admitted all this to WH, which shocked him no end.

3) focus on changing myself to be a better person, one who is ready for a real M. Do it for myself first, not for WH. Let him go to do what he needs, stop trying to control his actions. Stop LB's, stop LB's, stop LB's.

4) figure out what his EN's are and how I can meet them, both now in Plan A and later if/when he comes back. I think I've come up with some obvious answers, and even a few blazing insights about things I never suspected he needed. But I'm not too good at this kind of thing - still struggling to get it.

5) demonstrate that these changes to myself are real & will last even if WH comes back. Need to convince myself as well as WH. Need to go thru some tough times while doing a Plan A to demonstrate I can stick it out, be consistent, and that changes are real. Until then I can't go to Plan B or neither one of us will believe it.

That's it. My Plan A. I feel like I'll be ready for Plan B very soon - like by the end of this month, when WH returns to work and to OW. But maybe not. I'll have to re-evaluate then.

So does this sound like I'm on the right track?

What is the next step? Is this what I can expect from my life now - feeling numb and dead inside? How long do I go through this before I say "enough"?

After months of the roller-coaster, there's just... nothingness. WH has cut off all contact with me. I'm getting no emotional support from him, nothing to feed my own needs or make me feel like I should hold on. My every attempt to initiate contact - only e-mails at this point - have been met by the briefest of answers (if I ask a question) or just completely ignoring me.

I feel like I'm being so impatient. I know there are so many people out here who have been going on for years. I've only been in this "no-contact" situation with WH for a couple of weeks. But I don't want to put my life on hold while he figures things out.

Yes, I'm going out and doing things for myself. My social calendar is full. But there's such an emptiness inside of me. I never laugh any more. Will it get better? If I hold on a while longer, will I start to get used to this nothingness? I want something to happen - I want to file for divorce just to do something. But I know I don't want a divorce. Not yet.

Any advice? Please let me know if this is normal to feel so empty. I can't imagine living this way for another couple of weeks, let alone months or years, if that's what it takes before he makes a decision. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SH94

All of your feelings are perfectly normal under the circumnstances. You've done a great plan A but remember that plan A is not for the benefit of your WH but for yours because you've demonstrated to him (and yourself) that you are capable of righting the wrongs (on your part)that contributed to the bad state of your M. Your WH knows that you don't want a divorce and thus loves being a cakeman (having his cake and eating it too) who can communicate or not communicate with you without him feeling that his option to return to the M is in any danger of ending. Has he filed for divorce? I don't think he has, has he? Why not if he is so sure that the M is over?. I do hope that you keep what I said in mind in a previous post about the importance of plan B for rebuilding your M.

God bless.

SH -- Not much advice here tonight, but I did want to let you know that I went to plan B last Thursday and it has given me some peace. Yes, I still feel empty and dead inside sometimes, but I also feel like I am not getting yanked around by WH who was doing the same back and forth business your WH is doing. Just something to think about.

I got off the phone with him last Wednesday night and realized that he was pushing me away, coming back, saying quits, saying I don't know and after that last phone call I really thought to myself "This could go on forever. I can't do this forever. I'm being torn apart alive and it hurts too much. Maybe I'm not LBing, but I am spending far too much time crying after all this time."

Think about plan B.

Nope, WH has not filed divorce so far. I had my lawyer check with the County Clerk.

But also not a word from WH unless I initiate contact. And then he's very abrupt in his replies.

This is why I'm so confused & so tired of it all. I can't figure out what is going on with him. I'm afraid I'm missing the best opportunity right now to do something positive for our M. I mean, he's forced to live apart from OW for a whole month, and he's staying at our farm in OK & surrounded by our friends and memories of our life together.

Wouldn't he be contacting me if he is really re-thinking D? Why would he completely shut me out now?? It seems like he wants nothing more to do with me. And yet he won't file for D.

This has got me really confused - I don't know if it's time to back off & let him think, keep Plan A'ing with some regular notes, or hit him upside the head with a Plan B.

I had set a deadline in my mind long ago for initiating Plan B. Oct 31st. WH will return to work (and OW) on the 24th. That gives him a week with her to do something on his own. He's acknowledged my changes, I can't do any more, I'm ready to move on. So if he doesn't break off A , I was planning to send him a note telling him .... what? That I won't talk to him anymore? That he shouldn't talk to me anymore? We already aren't in contact! Where is the value in that?

Would it be better to go to Plan B now? While he's at our farm in OK, surrounded by our possessions and our friends and our animals, (hopefully) thinking of me and our life together? Without OW to pull his thoughts away? Or should I keep Plan A'ing (i.e. a few nice, newsy notes) a while longer & let him think about what he's going to give up? Then hit him with it when he returns to her?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am so ready to move on. I am so tired of this.