Well, what a weekend. WW tells her sister that if I don't file for divorce she will. Well, I'm not going to do her work for her and make it easy on her. WW told sister that she is in love with OM and he is in love with her and that he wants to move here, blah blah blah. WW actually asked her sister to call OM to talk to him so she could tell the rest of the family how nice he is. Give me a break. SIL said no way. Other sister, who has a P.H.D. in Psychology, called to tell her to not talk to other sister and that no one in the family is going to call OM. She called her back and left another message for her. She said if you are willing to throw away your husband, your kids, your family, your friends and your life to be with him, then once you make that decision you will be one your own. There will be no one there to support you. You cannot expect your family and friends to support something they don't agree with. WW just wants everyone to blindly support her decision. And from what I'm hearing from family and friends they dont. One of WW's friends called yesterday and asked for WW. I told her that WW had moved out and was filing for divorce. She asked me if WW was leaving for OM, I said yes. She told me that WW is self destructing and that once this is all said and done, I will be happy again and WW will not. That made me feel better. One of WW other friends heard I was thinking about taking full custody and said that I should go for it. She doesn't think WW wants to be a mom right now. That she is too caught up in OM and the kids are suffering b/c of it. I think she is right, but I will just see how things go with the kids. I really don't want to take them from her, but I will do everything to protect them.
I called WW last night to ask about the kids and I got the guilt trip that it was easier for me to handle this b/c the kids are used to being at home in their beds and they are having a hard time getting used to sleeping there. HELLO !!! I told her what did she expect. She said it would have been easier if I would have moved out. OH MY GOD, I'm supposed to make it easier for HER ????? She is so clueless. I told her what she is doing is making it hard for the kids, not what I am doing. I told her how hard it is for me to know she is leaving me for OM. I asked why she was so much in ahurry now to get a divorce. She just said it was inevitable. She was so rude on the phone to me. Then this morning she brings the kids by so i can take them to school. The kids go in and watch tv, she actually asked me if I would come over tonight and hook up her stereo speakers. I said, after the way you treated me last night? If you treated me with a little respect I would help you with anything, I slammed the door on her. She had a really surprised look on her face. I think she actually thought I would just say sure honey anything you want. NO WAY !!!! She needs to have reality set in. It will someday, but I will be long gone by then.
Anyhow, WW is trying to scare me by saying she will quit her job and ask for Alimony. HEHEHE, I told her that whoever is telling her she can do that is whacked in the head. She would never get alimony from me. Then she said she wants $800.00 a month for child support. I laughed again. I said I've already had it figured out, If we have joint custody I would have to pay her about $100.00 per month. She went off the deepend saying that I am screwing her. She actually said to me that since we have been married for 11 years that I should be GENEROUS with her. I couldn't beleive what I was hearing. She wants to leave me for OM and I'm supposed to be generous with the money I give her. She is so out of touch with reality it's scary.
So, I'm just going to sit back and watch. Meeting with my attorney this week, to set things up to protect myself. I'll let her make the first move and see where things go.
Right now, I don't even want to see her, but since we have kids I have no way around that. I am focusing entirely on my kids and myself. I hope OM does move here and he gets to deal with her. I don't think he has any idea what he is in for. But, do they ever?

Thanks everyone, I'll keep you updated as things progress.

TORO

Toro,
sounds like time for plan B. I wish you would call Steve Harley. I think it would be much easier for you.

If you do go to plan B, make sure you do a letter and so she knows what is going on.

here is a link to info about plan A, and B. Read up on B before you do it.
NSR's links to info about plan A and B

I am so sorry for what you are going through, please give all your love to your girls and make sure they have a secure, calm, and safe experiance each time they are with you. They will probably not be getting this with their mother.

I hope you can do this with out loosing your self in the fight. Praying for you.

SS

also read the post by Bramblerose about
How to be a doormat in plan A - in this same forum.

SS

TORO:

"Well, what a weekend. WW tells her sister that if I don't file for divorce she will."

Let her. You don't have 2 do anything.

"WW told sister that she is in love with OM and he is in love with her and that he wants to move here, blah blah blah."

Fog-latin. If he actually DOES move in with her, reality will hit her sooner than it otherwise would.

I would be careful about advice from relatives. Most don't know how 2 deal with infidelity, and cause a lot more harm than good by just taking sides. I know it feels like it, but this isn't about pitting you against your WW. It's about restoring your M, if that's possible. Taking sides and browbeating your W for what she's doing out of her foggy confusion isn't helping her out of the fog. It's putting her on the defensive.

"I asked why she was so much in ahurry now to get a divorce. She just said it was inevitable. She was so rude on the phone to me."

She probably IS feeling guilty. And hurt, and is blame-shifting her guilt and anger on 2 you. Nothing unusual about this behavior.

"Then this morning she brings the kids by so i can take them to school. The kids go in and watch tv, she actually asked me if I would come over tonight and hook up her stereo speakers. I said, after the way you treated me last night? If you treated me with a little respect I would help you with anything, I slammed the door on her. She had a really surprised look on her face. I think she actually thought I would just say sure honey anything you want. NO WAY !!!! She needs to have reality set in. It will someday, but I will be long gone by then."

I have a hard time reading this stuff. I don't really believe that you want 2 be mean 2 your W, in spite of what she's saying/doing 2 you and your kids. But getting angry and playing the "drama" thing by slamming the door on her? What's up with that? Get your point across, TORO, without LBing. This isn't a contest. Okay?

"Anyhow, WW is trying to scare me by saying she will quit her job and ask for Alimony. HEHEHE, I told her that whoever is telling her she can do that is whacked in the head. She would never get alimony from me. Then she said she wants $800.00 a month for child support. I laughed again. I said I've already had it figured out, If we have joint custody I would have to pay her about $100.00 per month. She went off the deepend saying that I am screwing her. She actually said to me that since we have been married for 11 years that I should be GENEROUS with her. I couldn't beleive what I was hearing. She wants to leave me for OM and I'm supposed to be generous with the money I give her. She is so out of touch with reality it's scary.
So, I'm just going to sit back and watch. Meeting with my attorney this week, to set things up to protect myself. I'll let her make the first move and see where things go.
Right now, I don't even want to see her, but since we have kids I have no way around that. I am focusing entirely on my kids and myself. I hope OM does move here and he gets to deal with her. I don't think he has any idea what he is in for. But, do they ever?"

Yeah, they ever! But it takes TIME, PATIENCE, LOVE, and protecting yourself from further hurt. This is going so bad so fast that I think I would agree that you need 2 write a plan B letter and go 2 plan B. BUT, call one of the Harley's and get coached BEFORE you do this. I didn't when I tried plan B in July, and I was NOT ready for it.

You still might be able 2 save your M, TORO, but not until you can stop this childish LBing. If she draws you in2 arguments deliberately and you can't avoid getting drawn in, then plan B is probably your best bet at the moment. But I'd be willing 2 bet that the Harley's will recommend something else initially. I'd like 2 hear what they suggest.

Toro:

I'll only add, in response 2 your subject line, that the fat lady hasn't even had time 2 "bulk up," much less sing, in this si2uation.

Give this TIME.

2Long: I have not been trying to pit WW's family against her. I do not call them, thay have been calling me to check up on me and see how I am doing. They have told me they are not taking sides, but that they just cannot support what she is doing. I will try and make an appointment with the Harley's. I need to be careful what I put on this site, I think OM has been here and is reading this material.
Just talked to WW. She has set up an appointment in 2 weeks with a mediator. Any ideas on how to handle this?

TORO

<small>[ October 07, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: TORO ]</small>

TORO.

I agree with 2long comments and also say that the fat lady is still on the Slim Fast diet and wearing size 4 clothing.

Love busting will not get your WW back or make her face reality, and furthermore love busting makes you lose control of your emotions and become their slave instead of their master, just like your WW.

As agravating as it is to deal with her foggy behavior, you must remember that you are dealing with a human being that is rationally challenged and views reality like a cheap romance novel.

But you have to do some serious soul searching and find out if you really want to save your M or not.

I know but what do I do since we are going to mediation in 2 weeks?
And yes, I do want to save my marriage but how can I if divorce is right around the corner?

TORO

Toro,

Your lovebusters are ENABLING your wife.

Everytime you lovebust, she says to herself: "See, I was right, he'll never change, he's a jerk, I can't wait to get this divorce over with!"

I filed, and still reconciled. It can be done but you have GOT to get your disrespectful judgements and your angry outbursts under control.

Toro:

"I know but what do I do since we are going to mediation in 2 weeks?"

Go 2 mediation in 2 weeks! Actually, if you feel you're not being represented, speak 2 a lawyer yourself. But from what I understand about mediators, they're interest is in working WITH you 2 formulate a plan of some kind. DV lawyers are in it for the money, and they won't get paid until you're DV'd.

"And yes, I do want to save my marriage but how can I if divorce is right around the corner?"

It's not, unless you live in one of those states where quick turnarounds are possible. Why be agreeable? Take all the time you're allowed 2 sign the papers. Stall, in other words. But if I were a betting man (actually, I AM, but I usually prefer blackjack), I'd bet she won't file. And you certainly don't have 2.

Time, Toro. Time.

Toro,
Your story reminds me of mine, only I was 'kinda' in your WW's shoes. Reality will set in, especially after the internet man moves nearby. (as my XOM-internet did) If you want to save your marriage, I believe you can. I'm now divorced, I've ended it with the OM, and I'd certainly like to regain my ExH's love, and work on things with him. I will have to wait a long time, and it may never happen.

I would do as these other people are saying to do--no LBing. Even during the separation, and still, my ExH occasionally did home repairs here as it would benefit our children. He only screamed at me once, and that was on DDay . (over the phone). In our whole R, ExH and I have never hung up on the phone, etc. No drama stuff... I think it's Coffeeman here who talks about kindness being so powerful. He really is right. When OM and I fought,(and it was tumultuous, I bit your WS's R w/OM may be too) I always thought of my ExH's abundant kindness and patience with me. Just something for you to think about , from the other side of the deal. My family never accepted the OM either, and that will work in your favor, too. BE kind, and give it time. (if that's what you want, to be with her..and I bet you do, or you wouldn't be here.)

Take care,
HP

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TORO:
<strong>I know but what do I do since we are going to mediation in 2 weeks?
And yes, I do want to save my marriage but how can I if divorce is right around the corner?

TORO</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First apologize for any rude behavior on your part. Remember you are not apologizing for her bad behavior only yours.

Second, when you talk to her do not take everything she tells you at face value otherwise you'll once again start love busting her and that can only set things back. BrambleRose is right that your love busting only enables her to continue lionizing OM while demonizing you.

And third, stop being so buddy buddy with OM. He's not after you or your M's best self interests. If he contacts you again, ask him if he is truly serious about having no more desire to continue the A with your WW, and if so, to then send her a no contact letter explaining to her that he doesn't want her anymore. If he actually does this, you will know it because your WW will look and act like she got sucker punched in the stomach.

Obviously what you've done so far has not yielded any desired results, so why not do something totally different (like the above mentioned things)?

Thanks for all your replies. I actually had to go over there tonight and drop of my oldest son's bike. I went in to say hi to the kids and of course they came running to me. WW was making dinner and my oldest did not like what she was making, so I leaned down and talked to him about respecting his mom and asked if he would eat it for me. He said he would. I had told her this morning that I wasn't going to hook up her speakers, but when I was there I just walked over and started hooking them up. She said I thought you said you wouldn't do that. I said I'm sorry for saying that but it will just take a minute. I think she liked that. I asked how her first day at work went and we had a nice little chat. Nothing major but friendly. When I left I told her if she needed anything I'm here, just call me. She nodded and we said goodbye.

I miss her. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I will make a point of being nice and respectful to her from here on out. No LB'ing. None

TORO

<small>[ October 07, 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: TORO ]</small>

Toro,

As for the legal stuf (separation, etc.) get a lawyer. You men often get the short end of the stick on these issues. Courts don't acknowlege WS being the W as much but they really need to. Any WS can cause damage to the M and family.

As for apologizing or doing her favors.... I will differ from the group and do a plan B. Seems like she will not appreciate you if you keep bailing her out. Do things for your children but don't meet her needs. Let the OM do that. Of course it will be hard and some items may criss cross between doing things for the children will give her some benefit. My hunch is that she will still try to get you to do things that benefit her directly. Be careful.

I set the rules in my plan B to discuss mail, money and child visitation. Stuck to that one but the Ws kept trying to get into R discussions. Imagine that!!! Even threatened to go live with OW. I told him go ahead..... so when that didn't work, he finally decided to work on the M and that's when the reconciliation talks really started. See I talked on my terms at that point. Oh yea, I considered his needs but initially it was the family's needs that came first. Not the WS or BS. Then the BS, then the Ws (see my post on meeting an EN)...... see he had to wait a while for that one!!!

take care,
L.

Orchid:

I believe that toro may have 2 plan B at some point, but note that he's only known about the A for a little more than a month. That wasn't near enough time for ME 2 do an effective plan A. I don't think it is for Toro, either.

I agree that he shouldn't feel obligated 2 do things for her. He can stop doing those (or be "reasonable" about how much he does for her while she's cakewalking) and still not LB, and do an effective plan A. It'd be easier if she hadn't moved out, though.

Good luck, Toro.

WW called tonight b/c oldest wanted to talk to me. When I returned her call he was already in bed, but she said she wanted to talk to me. I thought oh great. She said she thought it would be a good idea if I get the boys 1 more day a week. Since they are having a hard time at her place. But, she doesn't like doing that b/c she thinks it will hurt her for child support when we divorce. I knew that was the only reason she wanted the kids more, so she could have more money to afford her rent and other things. I told her I would be fair but that it had to be fair to me too. I also told her that this isn't what I wanted that I do not want a divorce from her. She said do you actaully think that we could work this out? I said if OM wasn't involved absolutely. She said even if OM wasn't involved I don't think we could work this out. I think that is fog-talk myself, but I didn't say anything. So anyhow, I'm not really sure what to do. Plan A, or Plan B. I understand both sides. Tough decision.
Oh, I guess she is still panning on flying to see him on the weekend she has the kids. I'll just have to wait and see how she handles that one. No one is willing to watch the kids for her to go back there. I will if I have to, but jeez, trading weekends so she can go see OM, talk about doormat !!! Putting him ahead of spending time with her kids, when she could just as easily move the weekend. Wow !!
TORO

TORO

As much as it sucks to hear her fog talk, you ARE creating a safe environment where she can trust you to open up and let you know what she is feeling. Remember not to take what she is saying seriously but to realize that she feels safe with you. You are trying to emotionally reconnect with her and build intimacy so that hopefully she won't need OM to satisfy ANY of her needs.

Why not invite her to do something fun just the two of you? No expectations on your part of course.

TooMuchCoffeeMan: I understand what you are saying. I would like to invite her to do something, but I'm sure she doesn't want to do anything with me. She is too attached to OM. I actually thought about showing up to her work one day and taking her to lunch. I really have no idea what she would do.
So you think keep Plan A'ing away?

TORO

Explain to her that you are not inviting her for any ulterior motives but only to share the fun in something that both of you like very much. It may be hard the first time, but if the date ends up great for her, then the second, third, fourth, etc times will be a lot easier and before you know it she may find that she does not need OM in her life.

Should I wait a while. She just moved out Thursday last week. Should I wait a few weeks? Or just go for it now?

Her favorite celebrity is Olivia Newton-John. I just picked up an authentic signed photograph of her on Ebay. I am having it framed and was going to give it to her. Good Idea?

TORO

<small>[ October 08, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: TORO ]</small>