Just something to think about as there seems to be much confusion about what to do and what not to do in a good Plan A.

How do we learn not to repeat a mistake? How do we learn to change a behavior? By having to deal with the reality of living the natural consequences that occur as the result of that behavior.

Letting your WS experience the natural consequences that come as the result of having an affair is NOT lovebusting. Letting them experience the natural consequences of betraying and detroying a marriage and family is NOT "punishing" them. It is HELPING them to see that they just might want to rethink what they are currently doing. Will the get MAD about having to deal with those natural consequences? Oh boy! They will be furious. Is it BS job to protect them from the fallout of their poor choices? I don't think so. Our happiness is our own personal responsibility. We attain happiness by making good, and right decisions. With good and right decisions we can be "happy" on the inside despite our situation. When we fail to make good and right decisions we might be "happy" for a little while but when the natural consequences set in, we're likely not going to be so happy.

Protecting your WS from experiencing the natural consequences is not only enabling their affair, it is prolonging the time they will stay in the fantasy or fog and is hurting yourself and your kids. Your are doing them, yourself and your children a disservice by going on in your life as though nothing has changed or worse yet "rewarding" their bad behavior by bending over backwards to make their life wonderful. It's not real to do those things for someone who has hurt you in the worst way possible and continues to do so. The affair was their choice. They went ahead and did it without any regard for their family. Does that have consequences? It certainly should.

How does this tie in with a "good" Plan A? Well, if you had a friend that lied to you and cheated you and betrayed you would you go out of your way to make life wonderful for them? If you did, one might say there were problems with establishing appropriate boundaries. On the contrast, do you have to be mean and nasty and hateful and spiteful(lovebusting) to them,of course not. You can be the bigger person by treating them civally yet at the same time protecting yourself from their hurtful ways. You can make a healthy decision for yourself and choose to limit your exposure to their hurtful behavior. When that friend experiences the loss of the interactions the had as a result of your friendship( a natural consequence of their behavior) they just might realize what they've lost and decide to change their behavior. Will that happen 100% of the time? No, some people are just jerks and place no value on their frienships and will move on and have learned nothing from what happened only to be hurtful to someone else who comes along. Are you better off without that kind of a friend? Probably so.

It is my opinion that the sooner you let your WS experience the natural consequences of having an affair and keep yourself the bigger person by not having angry outbursts and making disrespectful judgements, the sooner the chance is that your WS will realize what they have to lose. If you let them disrespect you by continuing in an active affair, while at the same time catering to their every whim and need in the name of "Plan A", you are sending the very clear message that there is no reason for them to stop that affair and no reason for them to have an ounce of respect for you.

In know it is very difficult to constantly deal with the anger and wrath of a WS when you put boundaries in place. They want everything their way. They want you to go on treating them like their was no lying or cheating or betrayal that has happened......but that is not the reality. They did do those things and when a person does those things, the playing field changes. They made to choice to change the marital plan, BS did not, yet BS must cope and adjust in the healthiest way possible to minimize the damage to themselves and their children. That is a natural consequence for the WS.

There is a way to be civil and do a good Plan A (even when separated) and still let WS experience the natural consequences of their choice. You can lovingly say how much it hurts and how hard it is for you to live with an active affair and how much you wish and hope with all your heart and soul that things could be differnt but that you realize that it's not your choice, it has to be theirs.At the same time you can be loving but firm about finding some way to stop all the pain that has been involuntarily thrust into the lives of yourself and your kids. A good way to do that is by limitting what you feel responsible to provide for them, otherwise known as enacting boundaries. WS then gets to experience the natural consequences of lying and cheating and betrayal.

Most WS are in such a state of fantasy and denial and revisionist history that reality isn't likely to set in just because their BS continues to meet all their needs. A good Plan A isn't just about meeting your WS needs and stopping all LB. It's mainly about becoming a better you and that first requires having a healthy self respect and healthy protective boundaries. You will be unable to build a "new" healthy, happy marriage in recovery if you don't first have these personal requirements in place. The "old" marriage will be ressurrected and you'll likely be back in the situation that got you here in the first place sometime down the road.

Plan A without boundaries or natural consequences can be more harmful than helpful in my very strong yet humble opinion. Be very careful and think long and hard about what you want your marriage to be. Certainly, I think most of us in good, healthy marital or personal recovery will say we would never want that "old" marriage back. Think long and hard about what it will take to have a strong , new, healthy marriage that is less likely to succumb to infidelity. In my experience it takes a good healthy dose of respect and boundaries and it's never too soon to put those things in place. It sets the stage for doing the heavy duty work of building a new and better marriage should WS make the choice to turn around and come home.

All the best to everyone!

Thanks mthrrhbard, thats what I've been looking for. My WW wants to have the same life I've given her but for us to be seperated and her continuing the A. I need to set up boundaries without LB'ing. She needs a touch of reality.

Thanks Again.

TORO

Mtthrrdbard,

Good writeup...... bumping this one up. Definitely a must read for everyone!

Thanks,
lhm

Bumping once more

As always, very well said, Mthrrhbard.

Lv,
Jo

So true!

I am troubled with teenage problems again. And THIS post has helped me. Thank you!

Our son is experiencing the natural consequesces of having a 5th of vodka and 4 knives in his room !!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

We are plan A-ing him while setting boundaries. He has decided WE owe HIM an apology for invading HIS privacy!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Doesn't this sound just like WS babble????? "How DARE you come into MY room and look through MY things? What gives you the right to boss ME around and stick your nose into MY business?" ....

...um cuz we're your parents????

Now, the funny part .... we went through his room while he was attending an alateen meeting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Consequences are a ***** ain't they?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ October 08, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

mthrr...

YOU are T-riffic...

Thanks for a GREAT post.

Cali

Toro - I have been following your story in lurkdom. Your wife has been very clear about what she wants to do. Begging, pleading and trying to EDUCATE her about how wrong she is will be futile. The loving thing to do is to assure her you want nothing but her happiness and let her go to OM. Do not agree to watch the kids for her. The natural consequence is that if she wants to "date" she must find her own babysitter. You must be strong and go on with your life and let her live her "dream", which is probably going to turn out to be the worst nightmare of her life.

You have so much in your favor. You already know OM feels guilty about what he's doing. You've heard them argue and fight and be nasty to each other on the phone ( how romantic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).He lives 1500 miles away for goodness sake...talk about a fantasy. Yes, reality is what she needs. Loving, honest reality. Good luck to you and God bless you and your boys!

Hi Orchid!

Thanks for the kudos. You've been giving lots of great advise around here. Keep it up, it's desperately needed.

Sol1tair,

Hope to have helped in some small way. Good luck to you.

Hi Jo!

How are you doing? Thanks for the positive strokes.

Pepper,

This place is very lucky to have recruited you from the redbook board! You offer such sound advise.
Ah, the teenager thing. My oldest will be 17 in a few months. I'm so lucky he's an eerily good kid. Boy, but am I in for it when my now 10 year old daughter gets a few years and hormones on her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I just know I'm gonna get back triple what I gave my own mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Privacy, for a minor, or adult living in the parent's home on the dole, is a privilege that's earned, not a right. As my dad always told me "If you don't like it, lump it, you are free to live elsewhere." Geesh, never thought in a milion years I'd think like him! Good luck with your boy and prayers for much strength and wisdom.

<small>[ October 08, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Hi Cali!

How are you? Thanks, You're pretty special yourself!

mom:

(I apologize if you don't like the nickname!):

"Protecting your WS from experiencing the natural consequences is not only enabling their affair, it is prolonging the time they will stay in the fantasy or fog and is hurting yourself and your kids. Your are doing them, yourself and your children a disservice by going on in your life as though nothing has changed or worse yet "rewarding" their bad behavior by bending over backwards to make their life wonderful. It's not real to do those things for someone who has hurt you in the worst way possible and continues to do so. The affair was their choice. They went ahead and did it without any regard for their family. Does that have consequences? It certainly should."

This really hits home. I agree with everything you've said. What's missing are the subtleties that make truly doing the "right" plan A for a particular si2ation a success. What does ol' 2long mean by that?

Well, my W has never left me for Rat Meat. Even when they were physical, she only "did it" a few times, and never within less than several days of being with me and her family. Does that justify it? Of course not. But my point is that my sitch has never been as "serious" as many on this 4um - even the "active A" has been via email at most for almost a year now - they don't seem 2 have even seen each other since Sept 01, so far as I can tell. But they're still talking via email...

What to do? Well, I'm using Ulove in my plan A. Do I expect miracles? Heck no, but I'm getting them nonetheless. Why not just hammer the boundaries out again (I've done this many times in the past, with varying amounts of "success" or "consequence facing")? Well, because the problem isn't the elephant (though I'd love 2 mow that Mo' Fo' down with an AK47), the problem is our broken M. My W is just starting 2 "trust" that the changes I've made in my own thinking and behavior just might be permanent. That's cool. That makes me feel like a thousand bucks.

Do I think I can "fix" our M without going 2 plan B? Yes, frankly, I do. Am I CERTAIN I can fix our M without a plan B? Heck no. Am I certain that I want our M? Not yet, I'm not. But what I'm doing has been the most effective thing I've done since D-day in January (or for the past 12 years, because I knew NOTHING about Rs and fixing M's until this year).

Is this plan A? I don't know if I even care what you call it. I think it is. Is it for everyone. Of course not.

I will say this again: If I've learned anything since D-day, it's that I will survive this as a better H for the experience and education I've gotten, either 2 my W or some other wonderful gal. Since I'm WITH my W, and she's the mother of our kids, the simplest way 2 work on fixing myself as a H is WITH HER. If that doesn't work, I'll try going it alone or find someone else 2 get all philosophical about M with.

There are NO innocent parties in this "business." Accepting and getting past that fact, is the first step in stopping the blame-fest that we read so much about on the 4um, with the next step being true recovery, I hope (but I'm only just beginning, so I don't know for sure)

With unbridled humility,
-2long.

Answer me this please.

You are a male BS and your WW is a stah mom that is cheating on you left and right. You are providing food and shelter for this woman, should you stop fulfilling this EN for her as a way for her to face the consequences of her behavior?

Hi there 2long,

Oh, I'll be the first to agree that not everyone will have to go to Plan B to salvage their marriage. Cali is an excellent example of that.

I do think too that in general (not all the time, there are some selfish women who are only out for their own interests and ego building out there) a woman has an affair for different reasons than a man does. I think when your typical good mom,devoted wife has an affair it's because she's been neglected emotionally for a very long time. She's usually asked many times if not begged to have her needs met to no avail. Therefore, the BS husband has more work to do in his Plan A to regain trust and show he's serious about making the marriage fulfilling for the rest of his wife's natural lifetime. I think too, that staying together and demonstrating those changes on a daily basis is also the best way to accomplish that goal. But, and there is always a but, sooner or later "rat meat" has got to go permanently, or your marriage will not evolve into a new, beautiful "better than ever" marriage that both you and your wife want and deserve. Only you can determine if you see her moving towards being motivated to nix him completely. Recovery happens in baby steps. As long as there is forward progress that's what matters.

There are many here that hang onto scraps as forward progress(and I'm in no way suggesting you are one of those). One step forward and two steps back does not forward progress make. It's hard to be objective when in the midst of the upheaval of your life, I know that from my own experience. But you've got to constantly step back and really look at the big picture and make sure that after a reasonable amount of time that WS is showing some signs of making their way back. To lose yourself in their craziness is not good for anyone and certainly won't help in building a new marriage.

TooMuchCofeeMan,

Wow, you ask tough ?'s

For ME, I wouldn't be able to handle my spouse cheating on me left and right. I would be a basketcase trying to deal with that kind of pain in my face all the time. For ME, I just couldn't do it. "I" would legally separate in that situation. I would separate out the financial stuff and the kid stuff legally and go to Plan B. I'd request that she be the one to leave the family house and if she refused I'd have to be the one to go. "I" could not live that way day to day. I would have to have some way of ensuring that my WS was not having the best of both worlds entirely at my expense. Of course that's just ME. I have no way of knowing what would be best for you. If this is your situation, I'll be including you in my prayers. All the best to you.

Thank you mthrrhbard for your answer and to answer your question, no that is not my situation NOW but it certainly was as little as three years ago(before I knew MB even existed). I finally realized that my daughters as well as me were being harmed by continual exposure to such a toxic environment of abuse and neglect, and so I made the decision to divorce my multiple A loving xWW. I fought and got custody of our two daughters and we are living a much, much more healthier lifestyle than the one just a few years back. I'm engaged to a woman who has a beautiful, kind, generous soul and who is a great female role model for my daughters. I guess I am a poster boy for life after divorce <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM:

"Answer me this please."

Who, me?

"You are a male BS"

Yes.

"and your WW is a stah mom"

No.

"that is cheating on you left and right."

No. ...well, maybe left, but definitely not right.

"You are providing food and shelter for this woman,"

Yes.

"should you stop fulfilling this EN for her as a way for her to face the consequences of her behavior?"

If that does the trick, yes.

But you weren't asking ME personally, were you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If not:

"Answer me this please.
You are a male BS and your WW is a stah mom that is cheating on you left and right. You are providing food and shelter for this woman, should you stop fulfilling this EN for her as a way for her to face the consequences of her behavior?"

Yes.

mom:

"I think when your typical good mom,devoted wife has an affair it's because she's been neglected emotionally for a very long time."

Bingo. Even if she only THINKS she's been neglected, or rationalizes that as justification for her A, it's MY problem. I can ignore it and slam her for having the A, or I can deal with it. The hard part has been NOT LBing while FINDING OUT what my shortcomings were. It's also been the most rewarding part.

"She's usually asked many times if not begged to have her needs met to no avail."

Oh yes.

"Therefore, the BS husband has more work to do in his Plan A to regain trust and show he's serious about making the marriage fulfilling for the rest of his wife's natural lifetime."

Yes. Or for my natural lifetime if we can't work out.

"I think too, that staying together and demonstrating those changes on a daily basis is also the best way to accomplish that goal."

I certainly think so.

"But, and there is always a but, sooner or later "rat meat" has got to go permanently, or your marriage will not evolve into a new, beautiful "better than ever" marriage that both you and your wife want and deserve. Only you can determine if you see her moving towards being motivated to nix him completely."

Yep. He's DATING someone now. Even though his M only fell apart when his W found out 4 months ago. FOUR MONTHS AGO, and he's dating already. He's got 2 small sons, and he's dating rather than trying 2 reconcile. The man's a loser. "Rat Meat" is 2 good for him.

"Recovery happens in baby steps. As long as there is forward progress that's what matters."

Yep.

No your most gnarly, excellent plan A dude <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I wasn't asking you. It was directed at mthrrhbard because that situation was the one I was in as little as three years ago with my xWW. You see I wanted to see how mthrrhbard could incorporate plan A in such a hellish situation I had been in. Her answer is what I would have probably done myself if I had known about the MB principles back then. But even with my knew found MB knowledge, I still come to the conclusion that my M was doomed because my xWW simply refused to give up her cheating ways.

TMCM

I'm soooo glad that's not your situation now! My prayer list is already quite long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Repeated affairs are emotional and mental abuse in my book. Living like that teaches children horrible things. I'm glad you have a better life now.

2Long.

"Even if she only THINKS she's been neglected, or rationalizes that as justification for her A, it's MY problem"

One's perception is their reality, even if it doesn't jive with what the majority might see or feel. That's why needs are such an individual thing. There's much revising of history to justify an affair but be sure you dilineate the difference between her perception that she was neglected and her revision of history to aide her justification.

Have you looked into the book The Five Love Languages by Chapman?( someone please correct me if I have the author wrong, I've read too many books) It's a great book that talks about how we as individuals "experience" love in different ways. You may feel love when your spouse buys you little gifts. Your spouse may feel love when you provide acts of service for her ( ok not THAT kind of "service").It is our job as a spouse to show love in the way that is meaningful and felt by our spouse, not by the way that we feel it or the way that it is easiest for us to express it. It's a book that is often recommended around here and a good one to check out if you already haven't.

Keep up the good work. It doesn't seem like it will be too hard to out shine "rat meat"!

Thanks,
I needed to read this. It makes me feel better about what my H is going through. He chose it. I cannot save him. We have to face the consequences of their decisions, Why shouldn't they?

Sharon

Here is a true story about natural consequences .
It concerns a man of mature years who had left his w and family for his secretary .They had moved into a small apartment together.

His w decided to meet with him to discuss some problems and suggested meeting in an outdoor cafe in a park. When the h arrived at the cafe he saw his wife approaching with his four children .

They all sat down at a table. Whereupon his wife spoke to the children saying well children from now on you will be living with your father she then got up and walked away leaving him to cope as best he could.

The end of the story is that he couldnt cope and returned to the fold a sadder and wiser man