Hi MH, thank you for this post. I agree with what you have said in theory, although I must say that the practical is not so easy.

Plan A (for me) is a learning process and for many of us part of that learning is how to set boundaries, what are our boundaries and it may be learning that we are 'allowed' to set boundaries.

It may sound stupid to some, but I'm only just learning that I am, in fact, "allowed" to disagree with someone and that I can do it in a way that is respectful. I am learning that I don't have to tell everyone my life story just because they want to know it, and that I don't have to give 110% all the time. This has not been easy for me in application, I was not brought up this way. I have to keep working at it, but its getting easier.

I knew a lot of these things in theory, but I'm only just learning HOW to do it and i think there were some foundation building blocks required before I could do it. I had to figure out why I felt I had no right to set a boundary. This is my experience.

I am also learning that sometimes setting boundaries is painful (for me and others) and that often others will talk you out of it for their own purposes in the guise of 'but you're lovely the way you are'. You have to learn to go with your gut on it and be strong but its certainly not easy and sometimes you fail and you learn what you could do 'next time' - because there will ALWAYS be a next time, the lesson repeats itself in different guises until you 'get it'.

I've also learnt that each of us does this in our own time and pushing too hard just dosen't work and can impede progress. As long as you don't use this excuse to fluff around for too long.

Sharon,

No,we should not be left holding the bag while WS gets the best of both worlds. They'll never learn anything that way. It's also useless and damaging to an already bad situation when we try to "educate" them. Having to deal with the reality of the mess they've created with no one to save them does help them learn though, even if the marriage isn't save. Take care of yourself cuz sometimes you're the only one who can.

H2O

Well , I guess if he returned to the fold all was not lost. It hurts bad sometimes when God tries to teach us something gently and we refuse to pay attention and He has no choice but to hit us up side the head with a 2x4 so to speak. If we'd only listen for Him a little longer and harder we can often prevent His need to refine us through difficult trials. He loves us and wants us refined and that fire sure burns badly sometimes.

{{{Seahorse}}}

You know what? You have grown sooo tremendously since WAT first directed us to your first post months ago. You've discovered some profound things and I couldn't agree more. There is no way to force a rosebud to bloom into a beautiful flower.We just have to give it time because if we force it to bloom it looses it's beauty. Hang in there!

<small>[ October 09, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

This thread is a MUST READ.
^^bump.

I agree with not being a doormat, or enabling bad behaviour, great post, wish I had figured this out years ago. About the natural consequence idea though, can an affair be a natural consequence a BS experiences due to their behaviour in the marriage? If so, then it seems unhelpful, and potentially damaging to recovery for a BS to present themself as superior to their WS, or an injured party. Yet judging by many posts, that seems to be a common feeling. Someone said something in here about a neglected sahm mom having an affair, implying it was the the BS husbands fault for neglecting her, that sounds like a natural consequence. Anyways, just a little confused over what is a natural consequence, and what is not.

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb

The natural consequence of neglecting a spouse may be that the neglected spouse asks for a separation but having an affair, well that's taking it a bit too far.

That's the epitome of selfishness. There are other options to deal with feeling neglected besides having an affair. To correlate having and affair as being a natural consequence for neglecting your spouse is to lay total blame for the affair on the BS. An affair is a choice, a selfish one at that, and no matter what a BS does he/she is never in any way responsiible for their WS poor choice. Sure they in all likelihood contributed to the deterioration of the marriage but it takes two to tango and it takes one to decide to step outside of the marriage vows.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the use of "natural". I took it to mean cause and effect. Say if you won't respect my boundaries I will not stay with you. Or if you don't reciprocate doing stuff for me, I won't want to do stuff for you (and if I do anyway that is where the doormat stuff applies). A natural consequence of neglecting or abusing (or just not really liking) the person you are married to, is that they will "naturally" seek to have needs met elsewhere. This can be friends, work, whatever, but also includes actions that eventually become emotional affairs. It is unnatural to expect someone to continue in a state of neglect, isolateing themselves from other people who may be willing to meet those kinds of needs.

Your clarification sounds more like purposeful consequences, choices, not natural consequences which arise from how people feel and behave. I fully agree their are consequences in all areas of life, and one is that if you neglect your spouse they will leave you (whether they are the bs or ws). How they leave seems to be a combination of natural and chosen consequences. The natural consequence is one partner will become emotionally focused on someone else, that is the natural consequence the bs experiences. The choice of the ws comes in going beyond a certain generally recognized boundary, rather than first seperateing or divorcing. But the reality seems to be this is how most "relationships" work, whether it is exclusive dating, or exclusive marriage. Dissillusionment sets in for whatever reason, someone focuses on another third party, and that starts a chain reaction of events that resolve one way or another the conflicted relationship. To the extent the bs contributed to that conflict (and that can vary a lot of course), experienceing an affair is a natural consequence. The notion a spouse should have an ironclad gaurantee, protection, etc from experienceing an affair no matter what their behaviour was in the marriage seems unrealistic in terms of how people actually behave, and holds the ws to a higher standard than the bs who is free to misbehave all they want if they are immune to an affair by their partner. Which is the point of the idea of natural consequence, isn't it?

It is not about anyone causing anything, natural consequence means what one can predictably figure will happen given a set of circumstances. The ws made a choice to wander, the bs made a choice to be neglectful, abusive, self-centered, whatever. Each have consequences, just different ones. The bs experiences rejection, disruption of their life, fear, and exposure to financial and health injuries. The ws experiences guilt, shame, bs anger, censure, abandonment (by the bs), loss of freedoms (as they now must be accountable if they wish to reconcille), disruption of other family relationships they value. Everyone loses in terms of natural consequences. What doesn't seem to help much is if a bs portrays themselves as superior, but they sure should start putting boundaries into place if appropriate. And I agree that this whole plan A doormat thing treads a very fine line because it sheilds the ws from the natural consequences of betrayal. But likewise the bs is at risk if they think of themselves as a victim and focus on blame/restitution.

Bump ^^ for the Queen of the South..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I really enjoyed this thread.

I am feeling so much happier lately, having arrived at no longer accepting his crumbs, or his abuse..... it is so so hard to let go of a family.... but I have realized, I didn't have one left anymore (with husband).

I am tired of the overly giving plan a I have given, and my sporadic craziness b/c I have given too much to an undeserving ws.

Yes, I do accept responsibility for my part of the drama.

No, not for his.

Glad to be here, and hear this great stuff! Gotta finish dinner for my son! I was reading this while I thawed out the hamburger. He is getting burgers after swimming, well they both will- but one little swimmer is asleep on the couch.

I had so much fun swimming with my boys today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I used to be an awesome swimmer, swim instructor, wsi, swim team, lifegaurd, etc.- in my old happy without a man days! Doing something I used to so enjoy today was wonderful. I have been a bit swimsuit shy, b/c of my back injury weight... but it is shrinking thanks to high protein and more exercise!

Hugs to you guys!

Thanks for being here. Also thanks for all of you kind and wise souls who put up with me while going through the turmoil.... I do not promise it to be over, but I do know I can no longer allow myself to be abused.

Thanks, Honey

I no longer want my xH back. I still care very much but now I see things very differently. I am BS, and yes, I neglected my xH pre-A, was stubbornly in denial that anything was wrong and did not think he'd ever leave.

BUT

I can now see that leading up to A I was very unhappy and my needs were stubbornly being ignored also. My xH refused to share feelings with me, refused to change in anyway - as far as he was concerned he did not need too. He could be a really bully and mean when he wanted to.

STALEMATE

here we both are, stubbornly in denial, waiting for the other to 'fix' themselves.

The fix for my xH was to have an A because he felt that nothing would change, wanted out, needed love. But I felt the same way and I did not choose to have an affair. I dreamt of being loved the way I needed it by my xH. The natural consequences of neglect is falling out of love, anger and frustration not an A. Naturally these things happen, we have little choice over our feelings.

But in this dicussion there is a choice - an A is a choice made by a person, therefore it cannot be a natural consequence. Other choices that could be made are to leave until things change, to divorce, or to stay and hope things change or to do nothing.

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Seahorse, it is also a choice to be stubborn, not change, and wait for someone else to fix themself. All things can be reduced to choices, maybe your H was more angry at your choice not to change, than you were at his choice to act in an affair manner, that is the trouble with trying to take the "high" ground, every neglectful choice is as bad as another, they all lead to marital failure. Really makes no difference who is worse, and the effort to assign "worseness" is every bit as wrong. Lots of behaviours are wrong in that they lead to undesireable consequences, it was only in that sense it seems being a BS (and experienceing an affair by spouse) can be a natural consequence. Having an affair (being the ws) can be a natural consequence also (but again, not always), of choices made prior to the affair, that left one emotionally receptive to attention from someone other than spouse.