Seems weird, but WW and I talked for a while last night. She thinks I am talking to her friends and saying bad things about her. I told her up until yesterday I wanted our marriage to work, so why would I say bad things about you. The problem is she hasn't told her friends the truth and it is slowly starting to come out. She said that I am trying to look like the good guy and she is the bad guy. I told her I have only talked to one of my friends, husband of one of her friends, and told him that I take full responsibility for her having the affair. I tld him if I would have given her the love she deserved and the appreciation she deserved she would not have gotten involved with OM. I told her all of this. That I will take the responsibility for her affair. No answer. She finally said that if I want to drag her name through the mud, that she has no energy to fight me on it. I told her I have no intention on dragging her name through the mud. I told her she is a great person and I hoped that her and OM would be happy together. I said I no longer want you back. I thought I did and I tried real hard to hold on, but I just don't want to be with you anymore. I told her it feels like a huge load has been lifted from me. I said I know I will meet someone special someday and I will be able to give them everything I have learned about relationships and love, that I would have given to you. No answer. She said again that she feels the marriage is over. I repeated what I said. I said I am agreeing with you. I'm not disagreeing. I don't want to be with you anymore.
She said she is too exhausted to fight with me. I told her I have no intention of fighting at all anymore. she said she doesn't sleep at all, that she goes to work in the morning totally exhausted. She said she has to work 2 jobs, maybe 3 just to pay her bills, while I am living in the lap of luxury with a nice house and a hot tub and all. I told her I didn't ask for this. I really had wanted to try and make it work. But that she had decided long ago that it was over for her. She tried to make me feel guilty about living at the house and her having to work a lot more to pay her bills. I don't feel guilty. She didn't have to work at all when she was with me. She chose this road and I can't bail her out anymore.
Anyhow, for the first time in a month I had a GREAT nights sleep. I really do feel like a huge load has been lifted from me. I just want to move on. i just want to be a DAD right now.
Oh, I had my boys last night. We had the greatest time. We played, laughed, chased each other around the house, played boardgames. I'm going to look back on this time in my life and even though there has been a lot of pain. I will be closer to my boys than I ever thought I could. The future looks good for me. Maybe Someday WW, will see that I'm not such a bad guy. That I can be a good provider, father, and even husband. I think by that time, though, I will be with someone else. All my friends, and some of hers too, tell me I will have no problem finding someone to love again. I'm actually starting to beleive them. I hope this feeling isn't temporary. I've been up and down too many times. But, letting her go just feels right.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I have learned so much from all of you. I love you all. I'll keep lurking and posting once in a while.

TORO

toro,

I have a question for you. If she were to call you tomorrow and say she made the biggest mistake of her life, wants to work on the marriage and said all the right things, what would your reaction be? Would you really say it's too late?
Ask these questions to yourself and think long and hard before you answer.

sad dad

Sad Dad, If she came to me tomorrow and said those things, I would definately want to make it work. I would not say it is too late. But, I have to move on right now. I am in no way wanting to start a relationship with someone else. I want her to know that I will not be the fall back guy for her. I have to let her go. Yes, I will still be in plan a mode. I will give her all the respect and dignity that she deserves. I will be friendly and caring. But most of all I will be a DAD. I am working on myself. If the day ever comes where she makes that phone call to me, I will decide then what to do. Right now, I am not waiting for it to happen. I am making things happen in my own life. I know telling her I don't want her back is a huge LB, but that is how I feel. Maybe that will change someday, I don't know. Maybe it won't. I'm just taking it one day at a time, today is Wednesday, all I am thinking about is Thursday. Maybe I've learned nothing from this board.

TORO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TORO:
<strong>Maybe I've learned nothing from this board.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have learn a lot my freind ... this MB made you stronger and ready to do self recovery w/ or w/o WS. As added benefit you learn how to be a better mate and learn how to care, protect & cherish your next relationship ...

-RH-

toro,

There's a difference between letting go and moving on. I have let my W go. If she wants to sell our house and follow through with the D, that's up to her. I am not ready to move on and I made that clear in my plan B letter. Someday soon I may be, and when that happens, I'll take the reigns regarding the D. I've talked to Steve H. alot about this and he made it clear to me that it's hard enough for a WS to take responsibilty for what they've done and commit to working on the marriage. Telling her you've moved on will only make that harder for her to do. I don't think you need to make a point of telling her you're moving on. When you are truly ready to move on, just move on, whether that means filing for D, dating, whetever. You don't owe her an explanation, your reasons will be clear. Just my opinion.

sad dad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>That I will take the responsibility for her affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK TORO it's time for me to take you back to the woodshed and whack you over the head with a 2x4.

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER AFFAIR, SHE IS because SHE CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR instead of dealing with her issues with you, her H. You, Toro, are only responsible for contributing equally to the deterioration of your M that made it a fertile ground for an A to happen.

By telling her that you take responsability for her A, you are enabling her and making her feel justified in having chosen to betray you. Not a very smart reply.

End of TORO's whacking over the head with 2x4.

In regards to sad dad's question. DON'T take her back UNTIL she agrees to end all contact with OM, sending OM a no contact letter, and committing to a plan of marital recovery that includes counseling with an MB oriented professional. She has to EARN her way back AND WORK her way back otherwise she will never appreciate you or the M. Too many times the BS is just happy to have the WS back home, that fails to realize that it may have been a premature move and only the beginning of one of many false recoveries that end up killing all the love a BS has for the WS. Check the following post in regards to the effects of false recoveries:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=00135 0;p=6#000083

<small>[ October 09, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Toro,

I can really relate to where you are right now. I am there too in my relationship. I haven't had a talk with my H. He avoids any discussion about anything HEAVY. Thats okay, I am moving forward to. And I feel good too. I have my days, but it IS a huge weight lifted off. I also totally, feel the same as you do in your answer to Sad Dad. I have reached that point and I don't feel it is anything to apologize for. We can't predict the future, so we do what we can to become healthy again.

Take care

Ute

Thanks Everyone for your replies. Uteconf Footballwidow: That is what I am trying to do. Heal Myself. Would I like to see my family together again? Absolutely. But I cannot go on feeling this pain everyday for who knows how long. I am sure there are those who will say it would be worth it in the end. I would agree, except the whole idea for us to seperate was to find ourselves and decide what it is we want. I need to do that. That is why I am letting her go. If I hang on then I will not be able to figure out who I am and what I want. I thought, stupidly, that WW was going to do the same. She has told many of her friends that is why we were seperating. But, for her it was just a way to get me out of the way in work on her relationship with OM. I know there are still a lot of ups and downs ahead of me. I am living day by day. Right now today, I am working on being the best dad ever and working on making the changes in myself to someday be the best husband ever. Would I like it to be with WW, absolutely. But again, today is Thursday, all I am worrying about is Friday. I want to learn more about myself and more about relationships. I have to let her go. I have. Do I still love her? With all my heart. Will I continue to show her respect, love, caring... yes. When I see her will I try to show her the changes I have made in myself.... yes. Not because I am trying to win her back, but because those changes in me are real. I haven't felt this good about myself in a long time. The hurt and the pain is always there. But, I feel good about who I am and how I treat others. She may never see that... and that is ok. But someday... someone will see that. And I will be able to give them everything I gave WW, plus a world of other things. For the first time I really believe WW will be the one missing out. It feels good to know that I have so much more to offer someone. I have changed a lot in only 1 month. I can't wait to see where I will be in the next 3 or 4 months. I sometimes think I would like to fast forward my life to 1 year from now. But, you know what, what lessons would I miss. I don't want to wake up at my destination, only to have missed all the beauty of the trip. For the first time since d-day I am at peace with myself. I am looking forward to my journey of self discovery. I think I am going to enjoy the trip. Who knows maybe someday my journey will cross paths with WW and she will see the beauty of the journey I have taken.

TORO

TMCM:

"End of TORO's whacking over the head with 2x4."

Where did you set that 2x4 down. If you can't remember, I've got a 4x6 EBONY board that I could use instead...

TORO, you're screwing this up. Sorry 2 be so harsh, but you need 2 STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR R! Let her mull these things over in her head by herself, don't give her fuel 2 justify her behavior. I know you're not trying 2 do this, but you'd be amazed at how even a little thing can get blown out of proportion.

For example, I always wanted 2 respond 2 my W's statement "you should find someone better" (which she has said MANY times over the past several years) by saying "I don't want someone better, I want YOU better." Well, I got something of a chance once a couple of weeks ago, and what did I do? I made an innocent sarcastic comment. What happened? Well, she was telling me about a former coworker of hers that was actually rather attractive, but "wears 2 much makeup for your taste." I jokingly said "Heck, bring her on by. You're always saying I should find someone better. Maybe SHE'S better." We were having an otherwise upbeat convo at that point, and she laughed at my remark. But about a week later she said that it hurt her feelings, which made me feel about 0.2 meters tall.

Don't say stuff like you did, TORO. Even if you feel it at the time, or even if it's true. If she tries 2 drag you into an R talk, change the subject or make an excuse 2 hang up. Be polite. Be loving. But let her stew in the juices of her own making.

2Long: That is what I am doing now. I know my wife pretty well. She has never been alone. She would never admit to it, but I know she was stringing me along just to see what was going to happen with OM. I wanted to let her know I wasn't going to be the fall back guy. I don't want to win be default.
Right now, I am just staying away from her. She called my house about 3 times this morning, 2 times on my cell. She left a message for me that was the same message from the day before. I need time to think and hearing her everyday does not allow me to do that. I know she will not be able to see the changes I have made without contact, but I need time and if I don't have to talk to her that will just make things better for me for the time being. i have to see her tonight b/c i have to pick up the kids from her place, but I don't intend to say anything but hi and goodbye.

Also, mediation is scheduled for the 21st of this month. I guess to her, she is ready to move on, shouldn't I?
TORO

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: TORO ]</small>

TORO:

I think your plan 2 only say hi and goodbye is a good one. Just remember 2 be upbeat. Don't even LOOK depressed. Shine your shoes (unless they're canvas hightops like mine), trim your moustache, get your beard glazed (woops! scratch that!).

"Also, mediation is scheduled for the 21st of this month. I guess to her, she is ready to move on, shouldn't I?"

Maybe she thinks she is, but she's clearly not. If she was, she wouldn't call you. So, "shouldn't you"? Not in my opinion, but I differ from a lot of opinions here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What do YOU want?

TORO.

I beleive that your WW's multiple telephone calls to you are a pretty good indication that she may have second thoughts about her decision to continue her A with OM. If she is so certain that the M is over and she is confident in OM's ability to take care of her, then why is she then making these phonecalls to you?

I don't want you to get your hopes up to high only to see them crash and burn, but I would keep my options open and remember the old saying 'don't beleive everything you hear, and only beleive half of what you see'.

Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan, I talked to her sister tonight, she called me. She said she asked WW if there was any chance of making it work. WW told her no, it is over. She said she wasn't sure if she believed her because she hesitated. I'm just going on about my business, doing my own thing and taking care of my kids. You know in the week since we have seperated, WW hasn't called 1 time to talk to them, sad.

TORO

TORO,
Thanks for your reply to me. I was touched because I could have written it myself, word for word. My H is so far away, he doesn't see me or my changes. But I do. I hope my kids do. I am trying to be a better Mom. It was hard for a few months to be a better anything. But, I to like who I am and how I treat others. My H visited over the weekend and I made a comment in a conversation with H and my SIL that I was nice to people, H said "I'm not, I'm mean to everyone." If this is where his search for happiness is leading him, I choose not to follow. I want to love and be loved, cherish and be cherished, feel and recieve feeling in return.

So anyway thanks. I hope the best for you. I think we are both doing what is best for us, but we still leave our hearts open. Mine is, I hope it will still be if H returns, but who knows?

Take care

Ute

uteconf footballwidow: you're right. I know my heart will always be open to WW. That is why I have tried to move on. Daily contact with her hurts too much and I want to preserve my feelings for her. I don't know what the future holds either. I do know for me it holds a better dad and a better person altogether. If that is all that happens then I will be happy again. I know I can make WW happy too. I am not sure I will ever get that chance. Everyone around me, friends, family (hers and mine) have seen changes in me and always tell me I am handling this exceptionally well. They say I am more insightful about myself and my situation. I am learning something new about myself everday. And, so far what I am learning and changing I like. Even though the journey of self discovery has just begun for me, I am anxiously anticiapting the experience. I truly believe I will look back someday and say to myself that WW has lost out.
My boys do not get a say in how their lives will be affected by all of this. But, I am damn sure going to do everything a father can do to make their lives full and happy. I cherish every moment I am with them. The minute they are not with me I feel empty. I will not have them for the next 4 days. I miss them already. But, I will call and talk to them everyday and tell them just how much I love them.

It is really hard to handle the fact that WW is willing to throw away 14 years together, her friends, her family, even her children's happiness for someone she has known for only 3 months. I pray that her feelings are all just part of the "fog" she is in. I don't know.....I may never know.

TORO

Don't be suprised if your wife has a break in the fog now that she knows you're getting on with your life.

One day I woke up and finally realized that I'd be ok without my husband and actually saw a future for myself. I also felt a huge weight lifted off myself! It was like I could finally take a deep breath and smile.

Then the very next day, my husband called me crying and begged to come home. Praise the Lord! Our marriage is incredible now! Stronger than it has been for 15 years!

Moving Forward: that does give me hope. But, from what her sister said, WW says it is over. I hope not, I have a hard time believing that, but maybe it's just me hanging on. She also told her sister that if it weren't for her kids she'd move back to where he is. That there is nothing keeping her here except the kids. Not sure what to make of that, except that it hurts.

TORO

Not to butt in but I feel the same. We worked our whole life to be comfortable and secure. Now WH is willing to throw away friends of 43 years, family, children and all he has worked for for someone he has know for only 2 years and has never spent more than a couple hours at a time with. Could he tolerate her longer than a day? He doesn't even know but he is willing to throw it aside for this friendship. It is truely hard to imagine the mindset. Other than his intimacy with her, this is the next closest hurtful thing to me. I doubt he would have ever sacrificed this way for me.
You are right. Time for you. I too want to move on. I am so tired of it all. He takes no more notice of me after plan A than before. He is driven by fear of loosing me by the sheer fact that he always thought I'd be there waiting when he was done with his selfish game. Guess what? I won't be. It has been too long for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think they know what they want. They bounce back and forth wanting to be where they are not.

Finally they hit bottom and realize that their spouse is moving on without them. Then WAM, they have to come out of their bubble. I don't think they believe we can do it. And, when we prove otherwise, it's a wake-up call.

They say so many hurtful things and probably don't mean half of them. They are using these excuses to justify their actions. I know that when I bring up things that my husband told me, he is shocked and doesn't remember them. He was a different person at that time.

Good luck to all! Prayers are with you!

Le

<small>[ October 11, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Moving Forward ]</small>

TORO,
Sounds to me like your wife is already the loser. I also feel sorry for my kids. My H said "the kids are older now they don't need me as much." My son is 13 and I have 21 yr. old and 15 yr old D's at home. Heck sake. I still NEED my MOM and I'm 43!!!

MY H has also thrown our 24 yrs. away on someone he barely knows.

I know what you mean about letting go. The constant wondering of "Will something happen today?" will today be the day he calls and says "lets try again". It's excrutiating. Thats one of the reasons I am moving forward. Unlike some stories, not all, I haven't gotten any sign of hope from my H. I just can't save it alone. I know how hard it is to understand their mind-set, it seems impossible that they can't see the damage they are causing and the pain.

Take care TORO, you sound like a good man. Good things will happen to you. Raise your boys to be good men. They will learn unconditional love from you. This is a great gift.

Maybe someday our WS's will give us the opportunity to share in our love and what we have learned. If not, I do feel sorry for them. What could be better than FAMILY, CHILDREN, A SPOUSE WHO LOVES YOU NO MATTER YOUR FAILINGS????? It's a horrible waste of lifes most precious gift.

Take good care of yourself.

UTE