</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question to you would be:

"What type of actions would it take from your WW to reach that part of you that wants to forgive her?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh, Kily, now you're REALLY wanting me to think... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know that she cannot undo the past. I have accepted that. Actually, I can forgive her for the A, IF she WANTS it. However, she has shown no desire to want to be forgiven by me. Weird, isn't it? She worries greatly about everyone else's opinion but mine.

The later things though, that I have outlined in Jen Brown's topic, really irk me. I did leave out a couple of important things, though....

She actually had the nerve to tell me that she had gotten to the point that she felt more like she was cheating on OM #1, rather than cheating on me. Gosh....that was one big, mean dagger. Told me that there were plenty of intimate times that she wished it were him instead of me. (Twist a little harder, honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

Also, back to where I told in the other post about her "attempted" apology, here is what happened there....

She came here crying about everything. She had just found out that OM #1's W was pregnant, and said that he had "wrecked her life". She went on to say that she could never trust men again. That she did, though, want us to remain close, and that should she have ANY sort of relationship in the near future, that I was at the "top" of the list. Wanted us to remain close, do things, go places. Said that we may even have the "big wedding" she never had.

I now know that she went to OM #2 immediately after that conversation that night.

I now feel used, and abused. I am the "fall-back" guy when things are shaky for her. I am the one that gave her the luxury of $13,000 worth of clothes just last year alone. She stayed with me while having the A simply because of the financial situation. Like I said, we had NO kids, so there was no reason to stay with me while she was "in love" with the OM.

Like I said in one of my earlier postings, it is much easier for me to handle the fact of her wanting "more" than me, than "none" of me.

Complete and total rejection of me, by her after D-day is a bitter pill to swallow.

I still haven't answered your question.

I guess, really, that there is actually nothing she can do. I truly believe that my sitch is one of the proverbial "water under the bridge" situations.

I could not have survived the past 6 months or so by remaining in love with her. I don't know if I would be here today if I had tried to overcome all of that.

The ONLY way I could survive was to basically destroy enough feelings for her, so that I could be sure that I would NEVER be hurt by her again.

I think, that is the point of no return I spoke of.

Kily, I have read the majority of your posts, I think. Now...from what I can recall of them, here is my honest opinion....

Your biggest hurdle is going to be to overcome your totally "rejecting" him. 3 years was a LOT for him to endure. In trying to self-analyze myself, that is where I would start to repair the damage.

We men do not handle rejection well.

You are going to have to try to reduce that memory in his mind. I think his biggest problem is not the OM, but rather the fear of losing you for another 3 years, possibly. You are going to have to show him that you are serious about staying close, and then, and ONLY then should you worry about the deeper emotions and closeness that you desire.

You are going to need to worry about showing him that you intend to erase his fears first, and then worry about yours.

End HIS fears, and then YOU won't have any.

Gosh....I had to reach deep for those. Painfully deep. But if you can gain ANY benefit from this, it was well worth it.

HCII

BTW...HCII never has seemed right. MOST people that know me call me Boo.

Boo

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>

Boo,

I like that, it reminds me of the movie Monster’s Inc. I don’t know if you saw it but Boo was the nickname that the Big Blue monster gave the human girl.

Thanks for responding to me. You certainly hit some things right on the head for me. It’s really interesting to hear your perspective on this because it seems so close to my own situation.

You Wrote:
She actually had the nerve to tell me that she had gotten to the point that she felt more like she was cheating on OM #1, rather than cheating on me. Gosh....that was one big, mean dagger. Told me that there were plenty of intimate times that she wished it were him instead of me. (Twist a little harder, honey )
Gosh, that must have HURT to hear. I wanted to comment that from reading this I get the sense that she is really ANGRY and was trying to hurt you. I don’t believe for a minute that the person you married really feels this way. It seems more like this is her inner child trying to get even for whatever it is that she felt you weren’t giving her.

I think your WS might be going through something similar to what I went through. She’s completely miserable and is BLAMING you for everything that is wrong with her. The truth is She is not READY to dig down deep and look inward. Her jumping from man to man is a definite red flag to me that she is scared to face her inner turmoil. She’s looking for the “fix” that ultimately will not happen until she stops running from herself.

I know this doesn’t help you, but I’m trying to offer an opinion that might give you some comfort.

Then you wrote:

She came here crying about everything. She had just found out that OM #1's W was pregnant, and said that he had "wrecked her life". She went on to say that she could never trust men again. That she did, though, want us to remain close, and that should she have ANY sort of relationship in the near future, that I was at the "top" of the list. Wanted us to remain close, do things, go places. Said that we may even have the "big wedding" she never had.

What I feel about this comment is that she is scared about loosing the stability and security that you have given her for so many years of her life. Again, she isn’t ready to look inward and wants to blame everyone around her for her issues. It’s real pain she’s feeling, but she’s talking from her delusional world right now. I’m not surprised that she ran to Mr. Poop (#2! LOL) as soon as that conversation was over because she is still looking for someone to “fix” her. She doesn’t know how to stand on her own two feet.

You’re next statement:

I now feel used, and abused. I am the "fall-back" guy when things are shaky for her. I am the one that gave her the luxury of $13,000 worth of clothes just last year alone. She stayed with me while having the A simply because of the financial situation. Like I said, we had NO kids, so there was no reason to stay with me while she was "in love" with the OM.

The next statement is the most critical:

Like I said in one of my earlier postings, it is much easier for me to handle the fact of her wanting "more" than me, than "none" of me.

It’s not about her wanting or not wanting you, it’s about her wanting to face herself and love herself! She’s a child that is rebelling and will continue to do so until she hits rock bottom. You are the one person that she has relied on for most of her life, and her “pushing” you away is an act of rebellion on her part. Think of it as if she were a teenager running away from home because MOM and DAD will not let her do what she wants.

I know it’s not comforting to read this, but hopefully it will open you to a different perspective. You may have helped create the environment that led to this, but you aren't the problem. It isn’t a question of whether or not you were a good provider, lover, friend, or husband. She is now going through an identity crisis and it needs to happen for her to become a whole person. The sad thing is, she doesn’t even know what the hell is wrong with her.

I believe from your stats that you married her when she was 18? Is this correct? This definitely fits in with what I’m saying. I became involved with XBF when I was 17. I needed to grow up. I did. I see him differently and only want to share my life with him and spend every day growing up and old with him.

I wanted to comment on this:

You are going to have to try to reduce that memory in his mind. I think his biggest problem is not the OM, but rather the fear of losing you for another 3 years, possibly. You are going to have to show him that you are serious about staying close, and then, and ONLY then should you worry about the deeper emotions and closeness that you desire.

This comment brought a memory to me about a conversation we had when I told him I wanted to come home and work on the relationship. His words to me were:

“How can I? What happens if you go into a depression again?” My answer to this was “I can’t guarantee that I won’t, but I have the tools in place to help me. I have learned so much through my growth that I don’t think I could ever let myself get back to that level again.” I think that what you wrote was what he was trying to convey to me that day.

I also see your point on the “comfort” issue that you raised in my post. I’m trying to stay more in tune with his needs, and the more loving I am towards him, the more I rub against that place where he has his wall built.

In a phone conversation that I had with XBF yesterday, I asked about his parents. I told him that they have been on my mind and I was wondering how they were. His latest comments to me were: “You should have thought about them before you left me. It really makes me angry when you are nice, and sweet, and your voice is really soft when you talk to me.” I told him that I hear that he is angry and I don’t know how he feels so I suggested that he keep telling me so I can understand.

I think he is angry because he gave up hope that I would ever be that person that he fell in love with. It was easy to let go when I was being rebellious and evasive because I was a stranger. Now that this “new” person has entered into his life, he is uncomfortable. Is that right?

I’m glad that it was painfully deep for you because facing pain is how we heal. I truly appreciate your facing that to try and help me. It really has. I’m not sure if my response has helped you in any way, but I’m hoping that it might help you with your situation.

Thanks again for your time and honesty.

Sorry, bad editing on my part:

You’re next statement:

I now feel used, and abused. I am the "fall-back" guy when things are shaky for her. I am the one that gave her the luxury of $13,000 worth of clothes just last year alone. She stayed with me while having the A simply because of the financial situation. Like I said, we had NO kids, so there was no reason to stay with me while she was "in love" with the OM.

You are starting to see the relationship for what it really is. Somehow, along the way, she stopped being an equal. Her dependency took over, and you became more of the provider and “parent” to her “adolescent” behavior. $13G’s in clothing….WOW! That’s my whole year’s rent payment.

Kily,

Reading your responses do help me put things into different perspectives. Anything, and everything that I read and learn will help me in any relationship, whether or not it is with the WW.

You then said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are starting to see the relationship for what it really is. Somehow, along the way, she stopped being an equal. Her dependency took over, and you became more of the provider and &#8220;parent&#8221; to her &#8220;adolescent&#8221; behavior. $13G&#8217;s in clothing&#8230;.WOW! That&#8217;s my whole year&#8217;s rent payment.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What can I say? Yes, she was 18 when we married, and I was 27. I guess most would consider that taboo. But then again, aren't we taught that women are more mature than men?

In our 14 years of marriage, I NEVER once said ANYTHING about her spending habits. I really didn't think that I was causing her to be dependent on me, though. I gave her full control. She could have spent it, or she could have saved it. The choice was hers to make.

That's me. That's the way I am. I'll do my next R the same way. I am by no means well off. I am blue-collar, but do rate in upper, middle class. So, the 13G's were indeed a lot. But money never mattered to me. That's why I relinquished control.

Isn't it ironic that I actually wanted her to make the decisions, so she would NOT feel dependent (she works too), and her decisions now I can't accept?

Isn't it also weird that her running to OM #2 so quickly was fairly easy to handle? i think it is because that deep down, I see where you are coming from when you say that she is messed up. Her running to OM #2 confirms to me just how screwed up she is. I tend to take it LESS personal that way.

Now...Something for you to think about....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> &#8220;How can I? What happens if you go into a depression again?&#8221; My answer to this was &#8220;I can&#8217;t guarantee that I won&#8217;t, but I have the tools in place to help me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try not to use this phrase. He already knows that. Let that lie dormant in his subconscious mind. Do not bring that into the forefront. You already know that he is doing his best to find every single bit of negative that he can. Don't help him.

Just like you and I both cannot guarantee that we will be alive tomorrow. That is a given. We do not need to emphasize that.

His mind tells him that "See....She's already leaving a loophole." Not good. Don't fuel his fire. That is NOT being deceiving by ommission. You can't deceive someone of facts they already know.

So...watch the negative phrases. Especially the ones that are obvious without saying them.

You know, in my hardest of hearts I truly believe that in a few months she will "come around". Patience is definitely no one of my greater virtues, though. I honestly know that if I get in another relationship before then, there will be NO chance for her. Why? Because I will not do my next companion that way.

If, and when, I start another R, it will be because I have decided 100% that no matter what she does, I will still refuse her.

That may sound cruel, but it's reality. I enjoy companionship in my life. I don't desire to be alone. I don't NEED someone to make me feel whole, but rather WANT to share me with them.

It honestly KILLED each of us during our M to be away from each other for just ONE night. I don't know what went haywire.....

HCII

Boo,

You WRote:
What can I say? Yes, she was 18 when we married, and I was 27. I guess most would consider that taboo. But then again, aren't we taught that women are more mature than men?

What I meant by that observation is that she was really still a kid when you two married. She never had time to learn about who she really was because she went basically from High School right into marriage. There was a growth period there that she didn't go through. THe same thing happened to me. I was a mother at 18 and when everyone else was out with their friends, I was at home with a child.

Then you wrote:
In our 14 years of marriage, I NEVER once said ANYTHING about her spending habits. I really didn't think that I was causing her to be dependent on me, though. I gave her full control. She could have spent it, or she could have saved it. The choice was hers to make.

Can I ask you if she held a job while she was with you? If she did, what were her finaincial obligations to the household? Did she feel as if you were supporting her? Did she feel as if she was an equal in the contributions to the household? Is she supporting herself now? Do you provide her with income?

In my own case, I was making almost an equivalent to XBF for a long time, but he always assumed responsibility to pay the mortgage, utilities, and my income went to groceries, clothing, car, daycare. Although the contributions were equal, I was always treated as if I had no right to make any mojor decisions towards the house because I didn't pay the motgage. That is how I started to feel the imbalance. I wasn't viewed as an equal in my own mind, and I became dependant on XBF for survival. I hope I explained this well.....

I also didn't mean just financially dependant. What I meant was that she might have been dependant on you to make her fill complete. This is an emotional dependancy. It is an unrealistic expectation that your wife had that at some point had to fail because you can't complete her.

In other words:
Were you filling up her well because hers was empty?

I agree that OM2 was easier for you to accept because deep inside you know she is out of control.

The question I would put to you is:

If you viewed what your wife is going is a mental illness, would that change anything for you? Would knowing that she has serious problems help you obtain peace?

You wrote:
If, and when, I start another R, it will be because I have decided 100% that no matter what she does, I will still refuse her. That may sound cruel, but it's reality. I enjoy companionship in my life. I don't desire to be alone. I don't NEED someone to make me feel whole, but rather WANT to share me with them.


I don't think that this is cruel at all. I think it is a very healthy attitude. I just wanted to say that your wife is feeling the opposite right now, she is acting out because "I NEED someone to make me feel whole, I don't know how to be alone, I don't now how to share with anyone including myslef."

I'll post with you again Monday. Have anice weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> &#8220;How can I? What happens if you go into a depression again?&#8221; My answer to this was &#8220;I can&#8217;t guarantee that I won&#8217;t, but I have the tools in place to help me. I have learned so much through my growth that I don&#8217;t think I could ever let myself get back to that level again.&#8221; I think that what you wrote was what he was trying to convey to me that day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In a phone conversation that I had with XBF yesterday, I asked about his parents. I told him that they have been on my mind and I was wondering how they were. His latest comments to me were: &#8220;You should have thought about them before you left me. It really makes me angry when you are nice, and sweet, and your voice is really soft when you talk to me.&#8221; I told him that I hear that he is angry and I don&#8217;t know how he feels so I suggested that he keep telling me so I can understand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about what I have in bold.

A part of him is telling himself that you are just now being the person that he thinks you could have been all along. He has convinced himself somewhat of that.

That's part of his anger. He's wanting to convey the message that you intentionally deprived him of what he needed.

Don't even try to fight that one. Do not try to convince him otherwise. Any confrontation over that issue will only reiterate in his mind that he is correct. He feels what he feels. He believes that. He will change that way of thinking on his own.

Back to what I said earlier....Make him uncomfortable from time to time. Do this without offending him. Contrary to what he may say or do, he will NOT be offended if he KNOWS you are not trying to.

Make him uncomfortable not with you, but himself. Figure out ways to make him "upset" his own world.

Then he won't like what HE is, and has done. Changes will be inevitable, then.

HCII

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I ask you if she held a job while she was with you? If she did, what were her finaincial obligations to the household? Did she feel as if you were supporting her? Did she feel as if she was an equal in the contributions to the household? Is she supporting herself now? Do you provide her with income? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She basically has held a job our entire marriage, except for a couple of months. We only had joint accounts. Everything went into the "pot", and she took care of it as she saw fit. Of course, there was an understanding that our debt obligations were first, then the rest was hers to do with as she pleased.

As far as feeling equal during the marriage, I would think that she did. That topic was never discussed. She never complained, I never complained, and we both used our financial situation as we saw fit. We wanted something, we got it. Neither of us made an issue of it.

As to supporting herself now? That's probably a toss-up. I do know that she could support herself, but she would have to live substantially more conservative than she is accustomed to. I assume that since she is living with OM #2, he is assuming the finances such as rent, etc. He already had the place, and I think his mother lives there as well.

I guess you could say that in a way I am providing "some" support. She hs not contributed anything to the marital debt since she left. I have assumed everything. The mortgage, a couple of small loans, car payment. She has one vehicle that is in my name, but she parked it recently. She parked it when she began driving OM's NEW car. As long as we are legally married, I have no recourse to MAKE her pay. It does get in my craw though, to know that I am paying the auto insurance, and I have seen OM driving it. Joint policy. I can't remove her without a final decree, and she can't remove me. I COULD cancel the entire shebang, but that would hurt ME severely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also didn't mean just financially dependant. What I meant was that she might have been dependant on you to make her fill complete. This is an emotional dependancy. It is an unrealistic expectation that your wife had that at some point had to fail because you can't complete her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is the kicker. That's her personality. She is extremely emotionally dependent on people. It really didn't become THAT obvious until after D-day. I think that is why OM #2 was in the pic so fast. She NEEDS someone to feel "good". You would not believe the number of people that know her, that have told me since she filed for DV, that she has an ego problem. Almost bi-polar. She thinks every man wants her, yet she has a low self-esteem a lot and has to have that "fix" you spoke of.

I can honestly say that I would have to think the situation over if it was determined that she was ill of sorts. That thought has concerned me though, because it is prevalent in her immediate family. Both her only brother, and her Dad's brother are bona-fide mentally ill. Her 28 year old brother, who is a picture of health, is convinced that he is dying a lot. Her uncle, will only speak to his father. He has not uttered the first word to anyone else in public in over 40 years. Not even a grunt or a laugh. Only will smile.

Want some irony? Her Dad's only other brother is a psychiatrist. Go figure....

HCII

Hey, hcii, I've been gone a while. I'm glad to see your feeling better. My DV is final in a couple weeks, life goes on, some days better than others, but I am learning to live by myself, and I think I need that before I try another relationship.

I wish you well.

Hey SCBI,

I was wondering where you had gone. Sorry about the DV close to being final.

I know the feeling about living alone. For some strange reason, there are times that I enjoy it. Growing up with 6 sisters, and the fact that my WW was sort of old-fashioned, I never really had to do chores such as dishes, laundry, etc. (Flame-proof suit on)

It ain't half bad. The WW and I went absolutely nowhere together, but I have made a very enlightening journey even if I did it alone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The solace I get now is knowing that I HAVE learned a lot from my experience, even though I am afraid she has run from everything.

Not to sound conceited, but my next Ms. is going to have one h3ll of a man here! Too bad my WW is determined to end our M when I am just now at my very best in 41 years of life.

We settled on 09/10. She is dragging her feet, now. Still hasn't got the decree for me to sign yet. I don't know if you have read my most recent posts, but the WW moved in with OM #2 just a couple of weeks after her and OM #1 split! She is really messed up.

Think about it....She has taken up a "home" with a man before her R with OM #1 had even got cold. She is not even CLOSE to being able to make a valid decision.

Really, though, I look at it this way....

How many times does a slender, good-looking, 40 year old male, no kids, good established occupation, nice retirement egg, and new home, get the chance to start fresh with all this knowledge?

Am I gonna be a catch or what? LOL !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I am!

Am I getting "above my raising" or what? LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

HCII
or

Boo