I have been totally pressed for time these last 3 days - but appreciate all the comments -

ss - nice to hear from you - thanks for coming back - your communication skills are incredibly valuable to me right now - I have not done what you said yet, for example - it hadn't even occured to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm so nervous about rocking the boat - but I have learned from your advice in the past and so I will say that he is cheerful and affectionate in a quiet way - it seems that now that he is getting used to the idea of going, he feels better about it. I am scared of what he is going to say - but I am trying to think positively - to try to put my needs in a positive wasy and state that I believe that this can work for both of us if we can just find ways to make us both happy.

A relationship free of fear, a climate of trust, care and protection and respect for the other - it has to work both ways - I want him to be happy, not in a straitjacket of rules.

I gotta go but will come back - please post even if I haven't got back, if you want to - bcos sometimes I only have 5 minutes to peek in - by the weekend, (Sunday) I should be able to post more.

Thanks all, you have done so much towards saving my marriage - I couldn't have got this far and made the changes I need to change without this forum.

Take care,
LIR

espoir brought up some very good points, and I could think of a lot to say ( as usuall) but I won't have time for a few days either.

If I could give any advice before you go to this first session ......
1. Don't bring everything up right now.

2. Don't get upset if H brings up lots of complaints about you, just listen and try to understand him without being hurt. I don't believe he will try and hurt you on purpose, he may vent though, and it often feels the same. DON'T REACT TO WHAT HE SAYS, OR SHOW ANGER OR HURT. - Well, you could show some hurt, but tell him thanks as you cry, see below. I am not trying to be funny, even though this sounds kind of corny.

3. Do tell him thank you for sharing his feelings, this is one of the things you have wanted, even if they are negitive feelings that are shared. Positive will come later, if not now.

4. Have a list of what you want to talk about over the course of the MC, but don't dump it all on him at once. If the MC askes what you want to acomplish or why you have come, have an answer ready but don't hit your complaints point by point. Perhaps something like this, "I love H, and I know he loves me, but there are things in our marriage that have caused me a lot of emotional distress and I have felt that unless we could work these out, we could not stay together long term. I want to be deeply in love with him, and he with me, not just be friends in parenting." ( look at him and smile when you say this last part, sqeeze his hand if you are close.)

5. You said you wanted to try and discuss things in a positive way, that is exactly right. MC may ask you to lay it all out, and if you have had time to get things in your mind crouched in positive terms, that would be the time to do it. If you have not had enough time, stall, and ask to do it next time when you have thought more about it. Perhaps you can express one, but do it positively. "One of the things I have really had a hard time with is the way we do our finances. I come from a much different background I guess, and I have had a hard time with this, even to the point that I wanted to seperate from him over it.( look at him and say "sorry" ) So that is one of the reasons I am here, I want to work out a way that both of us can be happy with."

I don't believe you ever ought to use my exact words, I am just trying to illustrate the concept.

You don't know if this MC is good yet, and you may have to help them do their job if they are not really good. Don't be afraid, it can be done, and this is a really positive step. I can see both positive and negitive in your post, Your emotions are running high, but don't be afraid of this. Even if it doesn't appear to go well, don't worry about it, come back and tell us how it looked and then see what can be done from there. I have a good feeling about this.

SS

Hope it goes well for you.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I wish I could come back here and have something positive to say, but it doesn't look like I can.

More like - how to have a disastrous first marriage counselling session -

What happened?

We made small talk in the car on the way up and waited patiently. I said to him "Thank you for coming with me tonight. I appreciate your being willing to help me by being here." I said that I would prefer a male counselor because I thought I could learn a lot about communication from a man. H was annoyed and said he didn't think it mattered whether we saw a man or a woman - we should just see what it was like. He said that if things went wrong, then he would "accede to my demand". I said I wasn't making any demands, just expressing an opinion and a feeling about myself. Does this tell anyone reading anything about how my H "listens" to what I say - it does to me!

We go in. The counselor is a man. We sit down on two chairs opposite him, facing him. He asks us why we are here. We both are not willing to talk. He tells us about him and the counselling service. He asks us again who would like to start. I ask if we could each talk to him alone first before we talk to him together. Counsellor says no. He says "You are in a relationship, that's why you are here, so we express what we have to say together.

First mistake.

Counselor asks again who will start. I say I would like H to go first. H says no. H says he came because I made the appointment, so I should go first.

Second mistake.

Counselor turns to me and asks me to explain what I think the main problems are. (Counselor did not lay any groundrules for discussion - third mistake).

I didn't like how this was going already - felt frightened. For me, the number one issue is that I don't feel safe - I am not able to express my feelings to my H without fearing his negative reaction and that things will get physical. So I said this - I tried to be positive and say that I thought we both had areas in our lives where we saw things from different viewpoints, but that we didn't seem to have the negotiating skills to talk to each other without descending into rancour. I wanted us both to learn how to communicate better - that I loved my H and I wanted him to be happy. I didn't want my H to feel bound into a straitjacket of rules which he was not enthusiastic about - I wanted us to find solutions to our differences that would make both of us happy. Then I said that the violent outbursts, such as throwing things at me had created a feeling of fear in me - that these incidents which had happened throughout our married life, albeit infrequently, had had an effect on me and left me frightened of sharing with him what I really thought and felt.

H immediately got defensive - he said he remembered some - he justified some of his actions by saying "but she had done X". He said I had the memory of an elephant and never forgot anything he did even if he had apologized. He thought if he apologized we should put it behind us, but that I obviously was holding all these incidents against him. He then started expressing how he felt when I had said 2 weeks ago that I felt like he was treating me like a mistress by the way he kept control over money.

So then we got onto how we handled money.

Most of the time the counselor said nothing except to encourage us to keep talking, then he sat and observed us arguing, without any reaction.
Basically he invited us to open festering wounds, without laying any ground rules, sat back and watched us row and then said "well, you obviously have communication problems."

This was one of the most destructive experiences I have ever had in our marriage. I am just praying that it doesn't kill of our marriage once and for all.

The counselor asked me to turn to H and say what I had to say. He said neither of us looked at the other when we were talking. So I turned to him at which point I started to cry. I said "There are so many things that have happened that have hurt me deeply, but I love you and I want to work to change these things..." H wasn't looking at me. I got scared and turned to the counselor and said "He isn't looking at me." At which point my H snapped. He turned to me and snarled "Don't lecture me!", got up and said "I can't do this anymore, this is just impossible, I have to leave, I'm going home on the train," and walked out. I burst into tears.

I sobbed uncontrollably. I did not have a key to the car. The counsellor just sat there. I blurted out that he had called me foul names, thrown things at me, had had two secret friendships with other women behind my back - it all just came spilling out hysterically. It was just plain awful.

Counselor said I should book another appointment. I said I was sure my H would not come back. I stumbled to the desk. Counselor gave me an envelope to "leave a donation". I couldn't even see straight for tears and sobbed as I talked to the receptionist. The receptionist gave me the key to the car which my H had left for me.

I left.

I drove home, got home first. I called H's mobile and left a msg saying I was sad that things went so badly. I wanted him to come home.

H came home and threw a note at the table for me which read "Dear W, I'm sorry that we didn't make any progress tonite. I feel that it would be best if we don't talk about this while we are both in a state, so please DON'T until we have cooled off properly. YS must NOT be subjected to any more of this." H.

Then he went and slept in the kid's room.

This am, I wrote him a letter, which I left for him. I said that I was sorry things went so badly. I said I was not happy with how the counselor handled the session and did not want to go back to him. I was praying that this would not kill of our marriage once and for all. I said that I wanted to keep trying and would go to anyone else he suggested. I mentioned names my H had already mentioned to me as alternative. I said I was not angry with him for walking out. I said I was frightened both of him and that our M seemed to be heading into "meltdown". I said that
I wanted us to have the GOOD marriage that I knew we could have if we could find solutions to our differences. I said that I loved him. That I respected his hard work. That I understood that he had feelings about thigs, even if our viewpoints seemed to be so different. I said that I wanted him to be happy. I said that doing nothing was not an option, for the sake of both our sons and that I wanted to keep trying.

I don't know if we are going to recover from this. I don't see a lot of room for hope.

Dear LIR

I am so sorry your first session went like this. Although not through the fault of the MC, our first session was equally bad, and had the net result that H has now said he is not prepared to go to MC at all. I know how hopeful you were to have got your H to go and that something positive could come out of this.

I really don't know what to suggest, but think that it is a good sign that your H has at least not completely closed the door, but is giving some cool down time and space before trying to communicate again.

Keep strong and thinking about you here in London.

Lisa

Thanks LIL,

I am at work and finding it hard to fight back the tears. For the first time I am considering anti-D's. Thanks for looking in on me.

I also forgot to say that after H got home, I went to MB website and printed out the article on "How to choose a good MC". I went down and put it on the table and left the room. My H took it with him when he left the room. I don't know where it is now. I have suggested that he look at the MB website - that I have found a lot of helpful, practical programs here that I feel could help both of us, but so far, nothing.

LIR

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I'm home from work and my H will be home in a couple of hours. H has not left me any letter, or TXT msg, or voicemail.

I am tired of writing him letters and getting nothing back. When I suspected about OW1 (before D-day 1) I wrote him a letter. His response was to get angry and say that it sounded like I thought he was very self-centered. (!) On the night that I punched him in February (after D-day2), I wrote him a letter of apology taking responsibility for my part in the confrontation - I even e-mailed the OW telling her it wasn't her fault (I regret doing this - he has used this against me). He did not write to me or apologize to me. All the times that I have said "I love you, I want to work on things" have been met with an eerie silence. My H DOES things that tell me he cares and is trying, but he fails utterly to articulate anything to me or to acknowledge either my love for him, or the effort I have made to save our marriage.

It appears that his viewpoint is that this is a continuing nightmare - I keep getting upset out of the blue over nothing and he can't deal with it any more. He said last night that he had talked to a lot of his own friends, and that they had felt he had put up with enough and had "handled the situation better than most". He's a saint and I'm the psycho in other words. When he said that, I said "Well, here you see, this is just friends taking sides. You tell your version of this to friends and they agree with you, and if I were to talk to my friends, they would say they don't know why I put up with this and that if I catch you again going behind my back, to punch you in the other eye." Of course, that made him mad. I then said, "The point is that friends will always take sides and that doesn't mean either one of us is in the right - i don't find it helpful to try to justify our respective opinions in order to be right." He was not happy with this. He really, really, really appears to just want to be right and is going out there getting everybody on his side that he can.

God knows what he is saying, but probably that I have been a depressive for years, that I precipitate terrible rows in front of the children, that I am irrationally angry and that I am pathologically jealous and imagining him having affairs with women who are just his friends, that I don't appreciate all the years he supported me single-handedly, and he is a saint to put up with me. That's what I can imagine him saying. Last night I saw the person who called me "the hacker" again.

So I look at the situation. He hasn't touched me sexually for 6 weeks. He is cheerful and communicative about his job - seems happy. He came into contact with OW1 3 weeks ago and has had 3 occasions to see her in the last 3 weeks. He has failed to be an open book about any of this - either OW1 or OW2. OW2 is coming back into town soon for a brief visit. H has been reluctant to "restart" his IC and is apprehensive (his words) about MC. (After last night, I am with him on this one). What am I dealing with here? It looks awfully like someone who is plowing head-long into the fog again, but what proof do I have? None.

I am tired of living in this hell. I am tired of being afraid to say the wrong thing. I am tired of being "unforgiven". I am exhausted. I can't see any way out. I am tired of being unloved.
I don't know what to do anymore.

LIR

I am tired of living in this hell.
You have a right to be tired of it.

I am tired of being afraid to say the wrong thing.
It's very dificult to be in love with someone you fear.

I am exhausted. I can't see any way out.
I often feel this way myself, and people say I have a good marriage. I can't say why I get these feelings ( in every case, some of it I can understand.)
I am tired of being unloved. You often say he does THINGS that show love, but that he doesn't express it in words or talk to you. That is an eduication problem for him, but an emotional problem for you and all of us that want to hear it. My W and I are a lot like that, but I am like you, and she is like your H. It hurts to say "I love you" over and over and get no response.

I don't know what to do anymore.
You know we don't have all the answers, but I recommend not doing anything right now while you are hurt so badly. Other than what not to do, I have only two suggestions.

1. Pray. Tell God just what you have told us in your last few posts. Ask him to show you the way and teach you what you should do. Ask him to make it plain to you, and give you strength to do it - whatever it is.
2. He was right that it is not good to discuss things while feelings run so high. I am......... searching for the right word. Supprised, or kind of amazed that he would say this. This is not the words of someone that wants a reason to cheat, or get out. These are the words of someone in a bad way that wants to find a way to heal things. So #2 is to just say that same thing every time that he said, until you are ready to talk. Stall with love.

I wish I had communicated to you earlier before you had to go, I am sorry I took so long that it was not of use to you. Please forgive me.

I'll be praying for both of you.

SS

(later) I have read parts of this thread over and over, and I am going to come back with a really long post. Last time I waited too long, this time I think I will just do it. I am sure it will take a few hours from the time of this edit, but it will be as soon as I can get it done.

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear LIR,
I am writing this post in response to the great pain I can see in your posts. I am having a hard time knowing where to start. Perhaps I will make some observations about God and our relationship to him, then bring it back around to you and your H.

I believe that God knows everything. I believe he is the only one that knows things as they really are, and as they really will be. We, in our fear speculate about things, but we don't really know. He has tried to teach us that he knows us and loves us. One illustration is in the book of Luke, chapter 12. 6. Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?7. But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
I know that someone that knows every sparrow, and how many hairs you have on your head knows what is best for your marriage, and what you ought to do. I will come back to this part in the end, but it is the foundation of what I will be talking about, please try to remember this.

When I say that God knows things as they really are, I am also saying that often we don't. Your H doesn't know them like that, and neither do you. ( and neither do I in many cases) We see things from our own perspective and what we see is filtered by our emotions and experiences. You stated that your friends would see things from your point of view and his friends from his, and that is correct. The information that the friends get is filtered through each of you so it is "tainted" so to speak. That is not the best word to use, but you will know what I mean, and I can't think of a better, so I will leave it.

God sees the good and bad in each of us. He knows not just what we are, but what we can become. Your H has anger, fears, hurt, pain, just as you have these feelings. When he looks at your M, he sees you filtered through these feelings. So in other words, because he feels pain, hurt, and anger in relation to things that happen with you in your marriage, he often believes you are to blame for his feelings. When you look at him, you see him filtered through your own feelings, and you have the same thoughts. Because our feelings are real and valid, we often feel that the perceived causes are real and valid also.

Now, what does God see when he looks at you and at your H. Does God see a man hell bent on destroying his wife and his marriage? What does God see when he looks at you? Does he see a sweet girl that never makes any errors? Does he see what H sees in you as you have reported it? Does God see this:
....... that I have been a depressive for years, that I precipitate terrible rows in front of the children, that I am irrationally angry and that I am pathologically jealous and imagining him having affairs with women who are just his friends, that I don't appreciate all the years he supported me single-handedly....
You can be sure that God sees all of us. He sees not only our actions but our motivations and he knows why we do what we do. So, I don't believe that God sees you as you describe your H seeing you. I wonder how he sees your H and how much blame he places on him. I wonder how your H really sees you and what he would say if he read what you have written. I suspect that if both of you could see the other as God sees you, you would be very surprised.

Now, we need to take this from the abstract to something that you can actually use.

My suggestion to you is that you don't do anything else until you find out what God wants you to do. You will get suggestions from your friends, from counselors, from the folks here at MB, from your mother and father. None of us know what God knows. God has said he is waiting to help us, that he will answer our prayers. I could give references but I think you already believe this. If you will ask in faith, he will help you, and this is something that I know, not just believe.
He knows how long and hard this road will be, he knows if you can make it, he knows H's heart and if it is worth working on. He is the only one you can go to and get the right answer. So, all this post boiled down is to go to God and don't do anything until you know what he wants and expects you to do. THEN DO THAT.

I often wish I was better with words, that I could find some way to take the pain away and make things right that are not yet right. I know that I cannot, but I care and will continue to pray for you and your family. I can't come up with how to communicate how much I hope for a good ending to all of this but I do so much want things to work for you, for both of you to be happy. Take your thoughts back to the beginning, about your hairs being numbered, and God knowing you personally. I know he cares about you, and will help you with this. I know that is where the real help is, and where your answers lie. Don't give up on Him (God), and don't give up on yourself.

Remember that God loves your H and wants him to be happy too. God loves you and he is not doing this to you on purpose. He loves your sons and wants them to have two parents that love each other and stay together. If there is a way, he has the power to let you know about it.

SS

Thanks everyone who has responded to me - and thank you ss, for your kind and heartfelt encouragement.

I am feeling a little calmer now. H slept in the kids bedroom a second night on Fri nite, I don't know why, perhaps because we were both so exhausted that he thought it better to try to get some sleep. It did hurt to wake up at 4am and find myself still alone, but we had started to break the ice that evening. When I came home in the evening, H came into the kitchen and asked if I would like a drink - what would I like? Anything - a glass of wine? I said yes, although I didn't need any alcohol, which would just send me to sleep, in order to accept his peace offering. He went away and came back with a special bottle of California wine which I had chosen the last time we went shopping - what about this, would you like this? I said yes, and smiled that would be nice. He was trying to be kind and helpful all evening - asking what he could do to help and what I needed. So we were able to start "being normal" again. By bedtime we were both more relaxed. Still, he slept in the boy's room again.

Yesterday, his B came down, and we all went to the circus together. My H was again trying hard to be helpful and went shopping for lunch. Beforehand, I finally went into him and asked for a hug. We both hugged each other and I said I did not want to go back to that counselor. He said "We'll find something else, don't worry." That's all that was said between us, but it was enough for both of us, I think. We had a lovely time at the circus and his brother spent the night with us, so H came back to bed with me last night. During the evening, H and I decided that we would go to a film together on the night we would be going to 2nd MC appt.

Again, I am tired today, but feel better about things. Again, my H DOES and says things to indicate that he loves me and that he wants to work on the R - but we MUST find a way to overcome the LB which have so deeply damaged our M. I am thinking of saying that we could almost do better ourselves if we would both commit to working our way through the MB program. I honestly think, after all the counselling we have received, that MB offers the answers in truly practical terms, which other methods do not seem to be able to come to grips with.

After these bad experiences, perhaps this has proven to both of us that we really NEED to do serious work on our M. And essentially, no counselor can help us if we are not able to help ourselves. If we cannot find a counselor who is competent, we have to heal ourselves anyway if our M is to survive. But this will have to be a 2-person effort.

I started a thread on autonomy in marriage and would appreciate any replies. I don't feel ashamed that I approached the person referred to in that thread in private. That person revealed to me what he/she really thought and I am glad to have discovered his/her true opinions. In the course of these last 18 months, I think I have sadly seen that there ARE real enemies to marriage out there, and sometimes, they take the form of "well-meaning friends". When one gets married, one takes it for granted that one's friends will support the couple in the work it takes to stay together. It is sad to come to the realization that some friends unwittingly actively undermine the bedrock of trust necessary to support a life-long commitment.
How best does one deal with this?

Many thanks for all the support. H20 I haven't forgotten you - it has just been such a grueling week - I will get back to you with my thoughts - probably tomorrow.

Take care,
LIR

Today I feel that the time has come to stop working on my marrige. I have watched myself bounce from hope to despair, entirely dependent on what my H does, how he behaves towards me, whether or not I think there is any chance of our marriage being what I need it to be.

I realize that the only person I can work on is me and that I have to start taking care of myself. To that end, I am going to go and get anti-depressants. The only way I am going to be able to make free choices in my life is if I am able to support myself and my family economically, and right now, that would be nearly impossible for me. So I need to work to gain my financial independence. The only way I can do that is with an equilibrium that will allow me to succeed. These last 18 months have dragged me through hell and I am not prepared to punish myself any longer for someone who does not have me and my welfare at the top of his agenda.

So I will probably be spending less time here, but I want everyone who has posted to me to know that I appreciate all of your help and encouragement, especially still seeking.

Still seeking - nothing to forgive - know that, please. What happens in my life is my responsibility - your responding sooner to my post I'm sure would not have affected the outcome of the MC appt. - my H is clearly not ready to listen and I am too scared to remember good advice when facing him.

H is jolly, but I can feel the distance between us widening in the same way that it did when his EAs were on - given that what I said to him hurt him, I expect he will rush headlong back into an EA, justifying it all the way. I am tired of failing at this R. Some day I will get out.

That's about all I can say. Sorry.

LIR

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I think you are making the only choice possible. At this point you have to save yourself it is a hard to maintain a level of sanity faced with the events you describe.

Trying to pander to his needs is not going to work-you need to hang on to your own integrity by creating a separate existence either within the framework of the marriage or elsewhere.

Good luck to you and your children

LIR

I am so sorry for your upset and pain. At the end of the day, only you know what you should or shouldn't do, but you MUST take care of yourself and your children. Without care for ourselves, none of us can give or receive anything.

Whatever you decide to do, you know that there are people here who will support and encourage you.

Thank you for the support you have given me and I truly hope you find some peace and happiness.

Lisa

As I said before, I wish I knew how to make things better, but I know that I cannot.

Please know that I care, and that I will be praying for you. I think it a good idea to take the anti-D's. I believe it will make it easier for you to see things in a better light, and correctly plan for your future. Is there a single incident that precipitated this decision, or just everything that has happened with no end in sight?

You have a lot of friends here that wish you well, and I echo those who advise to take care of you and your boys. We hope to hear from you from time to time.

SS

The only thing new with me is my name, but it made me feel good at the time.

LIR:

I have learned so much about life and love over these short 6 months. Enough I hope to barely compensate for the lack of learning and understanding during my first 30 years of life.

I hope what I have been realizing will help you. I have been thinking quite a bit about myself and what makes me attractive to others. I look back on the past 6 months and realize that I have not been attractive. I am not talking about appearences, but the reflection of my soul or my being. My preocupation and negativity with this mess has manufactured a tremendous burden on my chest of which I continue to carry. This seeps out into my life and the people I come in contact with and basically affects them as well. To put it simply, for over a year and a half, I have lost my smile. In the beginning, others have noticed this and often comment "what is wrong with you". Since then, it has become so common with me that people no longer ask this question.

I too have let the circumstances pre-A and during A affect me whole being so much so that I am not attractive. No wonder I can't affect positive change in my life with such a burden I carry. Obviously, I have made no new friends (not that I had many to begin with) and I do not seek out fullfilling and enjoying positive conversation with others. I have become or had become obsessed with my marriage so much so that I lost the very things or positive energy that made me smile.

I believe whole heartedly that we will reap what we sow. I believe that if we focus on the negative portions of our life, negativity will grow. It becomes like a weed almost as bad as Kudzo here in Georgia (O.K. local joke). We seed more and more negativity and we reap more and more negativity in ourselves and in our areas of influence. Prety soon we have an entire field of these weeds and no flowers. The look on our faces probably reflect this.

My new priorities are as follows:
1. think as little as possible about my situation. Everytime the thoughts come in, replace them with positive thoughts and try visualizing the good times in life.
2. realize that I only have hit a small bump in the road of my life and look past the bump to the future.
3. regain positive energy and get my smile back. Try to lighten things up a bit with good humor.
4. do some fun things and be productive with my time and make myself busy with life instead of analyzing life.
5. no more R talk. Just let it happen naturally.
6. focus on changing the things in myself that made my marriage go bad to begin with.
7. be romantic
8. do not expect or demand love from others. give love freely

I am not against medicine to fix us, but I do believe it should be used to regain footing and regain positive energy.

I hope you are feeling better. How are your kids doing? What are their ages?

My littlest boy is 9-1/2 months. He just learned to walk. What a fantastic age. He is now beginning to mimic his older brother (3 years). The funniest thing he does now is he shakes his head left and right to music and giggles.

My 3 year old has been riding bikes and driving battery powered vehicles for over a year. Unfortunately, we still have not trained him to be modest when he needs to pee. He could be riding his bike one minute, and the next peeing in the road.

WOW!! Just think of all the joy in life I could have been missing.

Wow, NDL!

I like the "new you" a lot!

best regards,