WW and I talked yesterday, not a good talk either. Found out she is flying back to see OM next weekend. She again wanted me to trade a day with her with the kids so she could go see him. Anyway our conversation went to how horrible a husband I have been to her. She told me that I have never hurt as bad as she was hurt during my EA 6 years ago. That she has never been happy. Wanted to know the last time we "made love", or the last time I told her I loved her. She said the last 5 or 6 years have all been a mask. That she was never happy and really never loved me. But felt she stayed because we had a nice house ect. Said OM wants to give her the world. She basically makes me feel like I am the worst possible person to be with ever. I've been hearing it so much from her lately that I am actually starting think she may be right. Maybe I am not a good person, maybe I cannot ever make someone happy. If I couldn't make her happy how can I make someone else happy. Who the hell would ever would ever want to be me. Right now, I can't imagine anyone wanting to be with me. I feel so alone, but also feel I will be alone for a long time. I'm scared to be with anyone, for fear that sooner or later they won't be happy or they won't love me either. I have resigned myself that I will be alone for along time. I think WW may be right. I feel like I have lost all of my self respect and self esteem. I know she'll be happy, she has someone. OM is moving here. So I'll have to deal with that too. Life sucks right now and I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

TORO

TORO: "I've been hearing it so much from her lately that I am actually starting think she may be right. Maybe I am not a good person, maybe I cannot ever make someone happy."

JR: "Horse poopie."

Do NOT let her do this to you. You do NOT deserve this treatment, yet it is a NORMAL WS behavior to self-justify their dispicable actions by transfering blame.

There are a few ways you could deal with this...

1. Agree with her. Maybe not in such a way to cut yourself down, but there can be "smart" ways to do this... it really confuses the heck out of them - defeats their neurosis. If they have nothing to fight against in you, they have to give up by default. Orchid has many good examples of such "reverse babble".

2. Ignore it. This is a good one, because it doesn't require any thinking on your feet - just simply ignore it, change the subject, work on redirecting towards "small talk, happy talk."

3. Acknowledge it. Say stuff like, "I'm really interested in knowing this, because I need to help myself become a better partner - for whoever I end up with in the future." Then act sincere, listen, and be prepared to bite your tounge. I recall one such "session" with my WW where she had already gone through almost every "bad thing" about me before - so she invented a few more - such as "I always flipped channels on her" (excuse me, I am a man, plus you never SAID anything - I'd have been glad to settle on a particular channel of your choice, "babe"), etc.

But what clearly doesn't work is to argue about her feelings... It never works. It just leave everyone feelings miserable. It comes back to "act happy" as much as you can, as hard as it might be. Even if you're just "acting as if" - it's a powerful tool.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That she was never happy and really never loved me. But felt she stayed because we had a nice house ect. Said OM wants to give her the world. She basically makes me feel like I am the worst possible person to be with ever. I've been hearing it so much from her lately that I am actually starting think she may be right. Maybe I am not a good person, maybe I cannot ever make someone happy. If I couldn't make her happy how can I make someone else happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, Toro, you are not supposed to have the responsibility of making her happy.

Your ONLY responsibility is to be happy yourself, and share your happiness with her. The same is true for her. She finds her own happiness within herself, and then shares her happiness with you.

When we look to others to make us happy, we are asking someone else to do something that they can't.

If she needs someone to make her happy, then one of two things will occur:

She will either go through life with a multitude of relationships looking for it, or, she will go through life with no relationship, because she will give up looking.

When all she needs to do is look within herself.

HCII

TORO.

Of course she had to tell you what a horrible person you are, because it's the only way for her to 'legitimize' her betrayal to you to herself.

Unless you are in plan A, there is no reason why you have to tolerate being her scapegoat. Plan B her and limit any conversations to child related issues.

TORO, Why are you still talking to WW?
Thought you're in plan B, aren't you?
You should be taking care of yourself and your kids instead of WW.

Been there, Toro, and got the T-shirt.
Look: what you have to do now is quite easy: first, pull yourself together. by that I mean exercise, eat and sleep properly. at least try to. especially exercising helped me a lot (as a side effect, will run a marathon soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
second, be good to yourself, make yourself happy, focus on the kids and lead everyday in an ideal way (from your perspective). shut WW out. get her out of the system. as long as you react (maybe angrily, by reasoning) to her LBing, she'll continue with it. the moment you smile at her, tell her how sorry and sad you feel for her behaviour, she'll notice. As soon as she sees you being a great dad who has a whale of a time with the kids, she'll realise how much she's got to lose. be strong, mate.

TORO,

I read this last night and it really got to me. Of course your wife is going to say these horrible things. She can't say the truth. "Oh you were a good husband and father, I am being selfish and awful though and I have decided to cr#p on you and the kids and go off with this guy I barely know" TRUTH doesn't quite fit her plan. YOU have to be the bad guy. DON'T believe it for one second. If you chose another R, of course someone will want you and love you. You sound like a nice guy. Nobody's perfect. You have also learned and grown, just because your W is in denial and into blaming doesn't change YOU. She is so FOGGED UP I can't believe it. We all had problems in our R's that is why we are here, but don't believe or take to heart anything she says right now. You have taken steps to improve so be proud and smile next time she lets loose a load. Don't LB it will help justify to her what she says. Smile a "I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW" smile It will kill her.

Take care TORO.

Ute

TORO:

I like J.R.'s #3 above. Everybody's right here, Toro. You shoudln't allow yourself 2 be subjected 2 your WW's fog-latin self-justifying, revisionist his2ry.

You are NOT a bad person. If you were, you wouldn't be posting so much 2 a forum like this, exposing your innermost feelings and looking for answers. You'd be doing what your WW is doing, blame-shifting 2 avoid facing the consequences of your decisions.

I reluctantly would have 2 agree with those that recommend going 2 plan B at this time, even though it's been so shrot since D-day for you. If OM is truly planning on moving out, after all the things he said 2 you about ending the A from his end, and your W continues 2 succeed in getting you in2 these arguments about your R, then your best bet at the moment would probably be 2 stop all contact with her and let her flop around on the deck like a mackerel out of water for a while, without your help.

But continue 2 post and definitely get counseling. Also read a lot. In addition 2 the Harley publications, I'd like 2 recommend books like "Passionate Marriage" (David Schnarch) and "The Truth About Relationships" (Greg Baer). I like these because they are NOT about As, they're about having healthy, loving relationships. You can apply what you learn 2 your M OR any future R you might have if this one doesn't work out (but it's far 2 early 2 tell if that's the case).

I have 2 admit that the books focusing on dealing with an A had a tendency 2 get me down, whereas these 2 books allowed me 2 "change the subject" or focus in my own mind and make me better able 2 deal with the root of our problem - the state of OUR M, and what 2 do about IT, not the A (which we BSs can't control, anyway).

Take care,

Thanks for all your replies. It has been very difficult dealing with WW. She has never been one to lie to me or make me feel this way. Before OM she had never even looked at another man. Now all of a sudden, I am the whole problem. I keep thinking I can't make her happy. But that isn't true. I want to share my happiness with her. OM may get upset, and I really don't care, but i will always let her know that I love her and that I care about her. I told a friend yesterday, at golf, what she had been saying about me. He said the same things you are all saying. That she has to say that to justify her actions. She couldn't very well tell OM either that you are a great husband, provider and father. If she did that why would she need him. So she has to tell OM and me that she has never been happy, that she never really loved me b/c it fits with her plans. I know it is going to take time for me to trust anyone again. It's hard to believe, after all that has happened, that I still love her. I do. I wish I didn't believe me, but I do with all my heart. I have made changes and I have grown a lot. I am not the same person she is describing, not sure I ever was, but I am not the person I was even a month ago. She wants to hold onto the past, without looking at the present or the future. I may never meet anyone, I may never make anyone happy. But, I am starting to like the changes in myself. Too bad, she may never see them. I really think she would like them. She is just too focused on OM and he is too focused on her to realize what it is they are doing. They are breaking up a family. The issues we have could be worked out. She just refuses to try. I kept wondering why all of a sudden she wanted divorce. Turns out OM told her nothing could happen until the divorce began. So, he pushed her into this. All he had to do was walk away, even for a while and WW at some point, could have made a clear decision. But, he is being just as selfish as she is. One day they will see what damage they both have done. If their relationship doesn't make it, he just gets to go back home and not have to deal with the damage he has done, so what does he have to lose. I am actually thinking he gets his kicks thinking he stole someone's wife away from her husband and family. I hope someone does this to him someday. If WW is willing to give up her husband, time with her kids, family and friends to be with OM, won't it be easier the next time someone else comes along to give OM up. She has already given up everything for him. I think he actually feels like he can trust her. Their realtionship is based on lies and deceipt. Everyone tells me it won't work between them. Who knows. If it doesn't I just wonder how much damage will be done in the mean time. My oldest tells me all she does is talk on the phone. So, already he is wanting her time for himself instead of being with her kids. But what else can I expect from him.
Sorry to get off the subject. Just a little venting.
Thanks all for the replies. It gives me a lot to think about. All my friends and hers too, tell me I am a good catch and that I will have no problem finding someone. Finding someone isn't what I want at the moment. I still want my wife. Just not sure she'll ever come back. Mediation is 1 week from today. She is flying to see him this weekend.

TORO

TORO, man, I just am at a loss for words.

The only thing worse than the rejection you feel as a result of an A is when they explain to you in detail how it was all your fault anyway.

It completely sux to love someone and have them treat you that way.

You said, "but i will always let her know that I love her and that I care about her."

Don't over do it, OK? Don't use the ILY words as some sort of pry bar to pull her away from OM. I think it makes you look weak, and "chicks don't dig weak guys." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Ooooh ... Ooooh .... Make me happy Toro.... make me happy .... ooooh .... I'm NOT happy Toro... and it's ALL YOUR FAULT !!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> "

..... huh?

You buyin' this sophmore real estate?

She is speaking from her petulent rebellious child ego. Turn off your ears.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Toro,

I've read your posts and felt the need to let you know that you have to stop buying what it is that your WS is selling to you. She is lying to herself and one day she WILL face the truth! The faster you let go, the quicker it will be that she self destructs. It's only when she hits rock bottom that she will be ready to see the real issues. Then you will be able to work with her if you still feel that you are willing to do so.

I've been in your wife's shoes and I'm stressing to you to have faith in yourself. Be strong for your boys. Most importantly, don't loose yourself based on her views. She betrayed you, herself, her children, and her family.

Thanks everyone. It has been really difficult b/c WW has never lied to me before. We have always been pretty honest with each other. So hearingn her say those things to me made me start thinking maybe they were true. I do feel as though I'm a good person. I have made a lot of changes already, I wish she could see them. But, I am not making them for her, I am making them for me and my boys. My counselor told me today to be strong for them, b/c I am the only one of us who can be right now. They will need strength from their parents, she isn't seeing the need at the moment. So I am going to love, care and protect them as best I can. We have become closer everyday. The bonding is incredible.
Again, thanks everyone for their posts, as always it is much appreciated.

TORO