ok this question is mostly for the BS's out there. During my A I wrote poems and love letters to OM quite often. My H found these poems while the A was still going on.

Fast forward - now almost a year into recovery my H still has those bad days sometimes and has mentioned the poems and letters I wrote. I try to explain them as me being in the "fog" when I wrote them. He is convinced that I was "in love" with OM. How do I explain that I didn't really mean to write the things I wrote? How can I help him get past this? And how do I explain that maybe I lost my mind and thought I cared for this person but that was not the case?

As a BS do you push off what most of your WS did during the A as the "fog"? And does it help to know that your FWS didn't mean the things that happened during the A, they still happened.

DU

DU

I was really happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> to see your post. Why? Because I am still struggling with what I found in my WH emails. I feel the same way as your H and my WH has said the same things you have said. It was reassuring in a way because I believed that my WH was just denying how he really felt or was burying those feelings. I mean how could he say those things and not feel them and mean them.

I don't know how to answer your post however I will keep watch to see what others say. Maybe it just comes down to actions on your part?

I try to remember that FWH was in a fog when he wrote what he did to the OW. There are still times when I wonder "How can you say it and not mean a word??". I also think if you can say it to her and not mean it, then why should I believe him when he says it to me?? The only thing that gets me through this is educating myself about this issue, trying to understand why people do what they do. I 'talk' myself to a better way of looking at things. As he earns back more of my trust this issue comes up less often.

<small>[ October 15, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

It doesn't really help to know an FWS didn't mean things, but it doesn't hurt to say that. The fact is, it's like your husband saying to you "Honest honey, she didn't mean a thing to me. I just slipped and fell into her." It doesn't make it better.

So how do you get past it? Just be there. Be reassuring. Tell him it didn't mean anything. Move on. Recognize when he has a legitimate need for reassurance or when his inner child is throwing a tantrum.

What is said in an affair is said in a pocket of fantasy. The world doesn't exist outside the affair, at least in part. Reality isn't there. So, in a sense, neither is what is said or done. It simply was and is part of the living fantasy.

Think of it like that old movie WestWorld where people go to a DisneyLand for adults to act out their fantasies. They go, they get to be cowboys, they go home. No harm done.
Only this time, the robots got out of control and did some damage. The reality is this: The A did happen, and things were said in that fantasy world. What you're dealing with is the robot gone amok. It's not what he said or did, it's what are you gonna do now?

Definitely unsure,

I'm writing to you today as a BS, hoping to shed some light for ya--and I will do my best to be understanding of your side of it, okay??

Tell me if I'm wrong, but as a WS, you may have felt neglected or abandoned by your H...like he got comfortable and just dumped ya. Along came OM, who not only paid attention to you, but found you interesting, attractive and exciting on a whole bunch of levels. Now, I have no doubt that you would have rather had that kind of reaction from your H, but that wasn't happening...so you weakened and fell into the A. It was just so wonderful to feel smart and pretty and WANTED! Am I pretty close???

So then you ask:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> ... During my A I wrote poems and love letters to OM quite often. My H found these poems while the A was still going on.

Fast forward - now almost a year into recovery my H still has those bad days sometimes and has mentioned the poems and letters I wrote. I try to explain them as me being in the "fog" when I wrote them. He is convinced that I was "in love" with OM. How do I explain that I didn't really mean to write the things I wrote? How can I help him get past this? And how do I explain that maybe I lost my mind and thought I cared for this person but that was not the case? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Well, first let me ask you this. Have you written a love note, love letter or love poem for your H lately?? If you haven't, DO IT TODAY!!

As a BS, there are days when you feel secure and there are days when you feel like the rug has been pulled out from under your feet--everything you thought was secure ISN'T. Then you look around and see that your spouse...the one you trusted and loved...did X, Y and Z with another person and they don't do that with you. It's not the most mature thing, but you compare "Am I ahead or is the OP?"

I think if your H tells you that the letters/poems are bothering him, don't justify it or poo-poo it...just repeat right back to him that you hear him saying that it hurt him. If he says he thinks you were "in love" with the OM, by saying no and denying it, it makes it seem like the old lies to him. Instead repeat it back to him...say, "I hear you saying that you are afraid I loved him more than I love you." Then you have a GREAT opportunity to tell him and show him that YOU PICK HIM. You could have chosen anyone in the world, and YOU LOVE HIM and you pick him over every other person.

Can you see where I'm going with this a little?

Also, it might help a little to talk about how the A was pretty much "infatuation love" and what you feel for your H is deep, enduring, mature love by choice. See, by saying it's fog and that you didn't love the OM and you didn't mean it...in a way you are denying his reality. His reality is that you had feelings for the OM that you wrote love words about! It will make much more sense to him if you let him know that NOW you understand the difference between "infatuation/lust" love and mature, married love...and you didn't understand that before...so at the time you wrote words that sounded right with the songs and Hollywood images of "love" out there. All our songs and movies these days are about "Oh...it feels so right" and "You are my soulmate" and all that fake, surface stuff. That's not love. Choosing to ACT in a loving, caring way--day in and day out--THAT's love!

Next, you asked:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As a BS do you push off what most of your WS did during the A as the "fog"? And does it help to know that your FWS didn't mean the things that happened during the A, they still happened? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking as a BS, I do not push off what my WS did during the A as "fog"? That is an excuse. I do understand that he was not thinking clearly...that it was grounded in fantasy--but that still is not a justifiable reason for me. What DOES work is when he shows by his actions that he is sorry for the choices he made, and when he is there for me when I have a day filled with doubt and sorrow, and when we look at how we are doing as a couple TODAY...not the past and not the future. To help your H get through this, help him focus on how you are treating him TODAY--and then treat him lovingly, of course!

Honestly, it doesn't really help to think that he didn't mean the things that happened during the A. Hey, I'm no fool. Naturally, on some level, he actually DID mean them!! Also, in a way that means that he could just "accidentally fall into it" again. After all, "he didn't mean to..." Baloney. As adults, you and I both know that there is a point when you're crossing the line...even if you didn't intend to get UP TO the line. But once you're there, there is a moment of decision when you have to make a conscious choice to either stop or go forward...and you chose to go. Personally, what is helpful to me is to figure out why he decided to "go forward" and then make changes IN BOTH OF US so that we can understand what happened and why and NOT DO IT AGAIN!

And BTW, in my effort to not be judgemental here, I want to point out that I think there needs to be changes to BOTH spouses...not just the WS. Let's be honest, the WS would have probably never wandered if the BS were paying attention, meeting their needs, not hurting them, and being a wonderful partner. So the BS also needs to wise up and realize that they owe the WS an apology too! For a long time, the WS was probably hurting and we missed it and never noticed...or didn't know...or didn't know how to change...or something! We BS's need to step up to the plate and acknowledge how we contributed too!!

Hope this helps ya, DU!

CJ

My only suggestion is this:
If the letter are still around, burn them! It will only keep hurting you spouse to find them.

Other than that, other here have given your great advice. It's your action that will help him get past this. It is possible to forgive, but very very difficult to forget! Good luck!

Thank you everyone for your great advice.

pqstill, the letters are gone and have been for over a year now.

I guess my biggest hang up on this is that my H had a revenge A. I feel like I have completely gotten over his A....

So, (Chorus) why does his inner child seem to be throwing a tantrum all the time? I mean come on its been almost a year since true recovery started(NC to either OP and both of us committed to the M). I don't find myself complaining to him about the cards the OW wrote to him. I don't find myself telling him to never go to that part of the state ever again(even if he has a valid reason to go and its still 50 miles from OW). I'm not giving him the riot act everytime his radio station is on a channel she listens to(even if he happened to like that station pre-A). I don't cop an attitude every time someone in a movie we are watching happens to have OW's name. So what is his deal? What he did to me was just as bad as what I did to him.

All this stuff about reassuring him, is great but how much is too much. At some point shouldn't the WS be able to say "enough is enough". Is there some point where the WS can say "ok, I screwed up but no one is perfect and I am no longer serving you your self pity on a silver platter". I am sorry if I sound harsh about it, and I don't mean to offend any BS's out there, but I am starting to think that my H is taking advantage of the sympathy I am freely handing out.

DU

lol... if you hadn't said it's been almost a year into recovery, I'd think you were my FWS posting secretly. Honey, is that you? lol..

No, seriously now, you are right to an extent. You caught me on a powerful day today, so the A isn't an issue right now. But that's the point -- he's going to have ups and downs and you have to expect that. Doesn't mean you have to make him sit on the couch and cry or let him beat you with his emotional whip. It just means you probably need to let him be a baby about it, tell him it's ok and get on with your life.

What you are saying is EXACTLY what my FWS has said. It's over. I don't get all in a twist. Let's go. That's fine. You have that right, and you guys are working through. To some measure, I think you as the WS do have a right to jump up and defend yourself. But, here's the catch: You have to be willing to face the consequences. If you want him to stop that behavior, you have to tell him, and if you tell him it could provoke a reaction you may not like. Are you ready for that?

As to why those triggers get him -- all I can tell you is what I've learned from myself. Men are locked into visuals. Hear a song, see your wife in your mind doing an amateur porn production with Mr. Feelgood. See a restaurant they frequented? She her lying to you about where she's been and then slipping off to be in the love nest with the Dangling [censored] of Love. Sorry about the crudeness, but you get the idea. It's very primitive. Very primal.

But, you are right that he's probably using these techniques just a bit to punish you. Says he has some unresolved issues. Maybe it's time to explore those. Or, as some have suggested, force him to deal with the triggers by exposure.
Remember the movie Clockwork Orange? How they strapped the guy in and forced his eyes open and made him watch these movies until he was totally desensitized? It's painful, but maybe that's what you need to do. Tell him what you want to do, then sit down and read the poems and letters to him again. And again. And again, and keep reassuring him as you go.

It's a scary tactic, and may absolutely backfire.

And gentler option? Maybe writing him a lot of poems, but be careful. He remembers things. Avoid using the same terms in the poems or he'll nail it to his trophy wall.

That's way more than you asked, but I'm rollin' today! lol...

DU, My hunch is that what your H is really saying is that he wants you to write some of that mushy stuff for him. He wants to feel special.

You cannot convince him that "you didn't mean to write the things" you did, because, well, you did mean them. Love--even in infidelity--is not fog. The fog is that you fell in love w/ someone when you were already married to someone else.

New love (like you and your H had years ago) stirs us up and makes us all mushy. Over time, the mush tends to settle.

So, you can't honestly write to your husband "every minute apart feels like an eternity" (gag!), but you can honestly write about what makes him a great catch. Or about some of the memories you've created together. Or about how no one makes you feel the way he's always made you feel. I'm just making stuff up here, but you get the idea. He wants to know that he--and your R--is special.

How much is too much? I don't know--if he were to send you flowers every day for the rest of your life, would you ever complain that it was too much?

Ok Chorus,

I get the idea(I am probably one of the few that is not offended by your abilty to be blunt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) I am just at that plateau and feel like I am going no where with H or M anytime soon. You know the "Twilight Zone"

DU

Go check out the thread on "Someone please move the damned trees" and find Bill Uphill's post. He has a link to a nice post from a "survivor." If nothing else, it helps buoy the spirits.