MM,

I think Lexxxy is right about some things but wrong about something else. This isn't about her education, this about her ongoing affair with OM. Of course he can be magnanimus, he has nothing to lose and no children. Of course he has a huge advantage there.

On the other hand, I cannot believe that you have allowed yourself to be so out flanked.

1. You have let her decide that YOU haven't changed, when in fact it is she that has changed NOTHING.

2. You let her get you mad and react without thinking things through.

3. You are so focused on your failing that you seem to be forgetting that she is having the affair. She cheated on you while you were overseas serving your country, and she is still cheating on.

4. You have fallen for the line, always used here, yes even by Lexxxy, "it's too late, you should have changed sooner", when in fact it is THEIR behavior that needed changing and their excuse of NOT changing is YOU. Hello, MM.

What to do? I think withdraw from her. Stay in Plan A, but let her make the contacts, be pleasant. Also if you feel the divorce is appropriate, let it continue. Your counselor is right she shouldn't come back until the OM is out of the picture. You are probably also right she really would like to have you support her, hang in there, still see the OM, and everyone let her alone for school. Then when school is over she can decide. THat is great for her, but is rediculous for the children and you.

She is going to have to come to this on her own. She is going to have to lose the excuses and face her own fate. And given that the affair is still going on she risks losing all contact with children since you are in VA. It is her choice.

You have your own to make. Start working on those. Set your boundaries, which you did in a not so delicate way. But, while it is an LB to demand that OM be out of the picture, you do have a right to set that boundary.

Must go, but slow down and let this cool down. She is right you haven't changed much, but then she is throwing gasoline on the flames. Do your best, but get your focus.

God Bless,

JL

From What Are Plan A and Plan B:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where you made the mistake which you compounded with your angry outburst that she give up OM. It would have been better and more effective if you had told her you loved her but her decision not to committ to no more contact with OM was hurting you deeply and that you can not see her again until she ends her A with OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with JL in staying in plan A and then after a time where you have left her a good impression on her and she is still in contact with OM, then proceed back to plan B.

If she blows a gasket and confronts you about the divorce papers, you might want to tell her that you are trying to get your attorney to halt the divorce from proceeding. Invite her to lunch or dinner to ease the tension she might still have regarding the divorce.

<small>[ October 27, 2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Just a little note - I noticed you said that OM LB'd big-time by refusing to go shopping for WW when she really needed help there - he said to her "you're an independent woman, do it yourself" and she had started to realize he was not altogether a "team" player (my words).

When she is on her own again, without you around to help her out, don't worry - OM will LB again. He can afford to look good to her right now - he won't always when its all up to him.
OK? Just something to remind yourself of when you are down.

OK? Not much to go on, but something tactical to think about. Hope it helps.

LIR

Lady in red is right Mortarman, OM is ignorant in the ways of marriage building, a fatal flaw that eventually will kill ALL feelings your WW will have for him (it already is happening). He will again love bust her big time and she will no longer will need your insistence of her leaving and not contacting OM because she will be sick of him.

You'll get another chance to show your best to your WW if you control the urge to love bust her.

Thanks for the replies all. I think I see a theme here to all of these.

First, when I say I screwed up, I made a very big tactical mistake, as JL said. Although she has to have OM out of the picture before things can improve, it was the two previous weeks, with the OM LBing, and her missing us (because I had gone into a full Plan B for the three weeks before that), she had started coming around (had called me in a panic...see the beginning of this thread). So, I Plan Aed her pretty well for two weeks. She even stated last week that the OM would be out of the picture when she returned home. That when she returned, it was for good...and he would be gone for good.

Anyway, we spent a very good week and weekend together. Where I screwed up was I forgot what she said about him being out of the picture (soon?) and the fact she had been asking friends and even me how to end things. I pointed her back to the Harley book on affairs. She has read it. Tehn, she spenty the weekend talking about new bedroom furniture, how our finances would be even better once she was home, about rearranging things in the house...about being here to add the mothering touch to the kids (she didnt like the way I dress them...but did say she thought I was doing a great job...just not a mother...I agree!).

So, I fell into this trap. I have been so starved for her affection, for hearing the things I was finally hearing and seeing my wife again for the first time, the real Mrs. Mortarman, since I left for war a year ago. So, I started to press, to talk about moving her home at the end of the month (so she wouldnt have to spend money on rent next month). That it was time.

Well, that scared her somewhat. Somehow, while I was following her lead, I took off on my own tangent...and did exactly what everyone here is saying...I showed her I am the same bullheaded Mortarman, running roughshod over her. So, when I didnt get a response of yes, and she said she still didnt know what she was doing or when, all of the things she had said over the weekend seemded to be a lie and that I was set-up for the fall again. I got angry...demanded OM out of our lives immediately...I blew it.

You are right this is her fault. But, as Steve Harley told me once, do I want to be right, or do I want to be married? The unfortunate part of all of this is the BS has to do all of the leg work, without remorse or anything from the WS. But, as my pastor said yesterday to me, when it is all over and she is home, the remorse will come. But I cannot force it. She was even having a lot of that remorse (read the beginning of this thread) and was the reason for the thaw in our relations.

So, I have done a tactical withdrawl. I am Plan Bing again, unless she calls or comes by, then an immediate Plan A. I unfortunately made the OM look good this week because he responded to her like I should have, with saying that he is there and is patient...that he will go if she asks. you're right...it is easy for him because he has nothing to lose. But, in her mind right now, he scored a triple. But it was my hit that allowed him to do this.

I am very upset at being so stupid. I am not sure how to show her back again, except for the fact that she has already crossed the line by seeing what the Harley's talk about in coming out of the fog and seeing reality. She finally knows what it is. Yes I scared her back into the fog. But my hope is that her remembering what she saw for two weeks, remembering the remorse she was finally feeling, remembering what she said about OM is not family and she wants her family...I hope and pray that these things, as well as a lot of LBing by the OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , will make her try again.

At this time, the tactical situation is that during ceasefire negotiations, I got a little antsy and demanded unconditional surrender immediately. The "enemy" (my WW) scurried back into her defensive positions, as did I, and now we are looking at each other waiting to see what happens. or maybe even she has given up...I dont know. So, I will have to go back to just sitting here and wait for another white flag from her side and pray the OM screws up like crazy.

Prayers everyone. They seemed to be working. Now I need the good Lord to clean up my mess.

Out.

MM -
You are right on target.

You have to forget about being "right"...you have to forget about convincing the WS that they are wrong, even if they are acting unlike themselves, even if they are doing things you hate or disagree with -- they have to come to those conclusions ALONE.

You simply have to position yourself. Logically. Try to lose the emotions of it and focus on the goals.

And I suppose holding back the urge to push when you finally start to see your WS emerging is hardest of all.

Focus on your goal MM! Good luck!

Thanks Lexxxy...that is the plan. I just hope that she will come back to the table. like I said, I think the OM scored some huge points by telling her he is still there, for her to work things out. At the same time, she sees me not for the great two weeks, but for pressing her and being demanding last Monday.

I pray for another shot at this. I know that I can hold on, now that I know that she is TRULY coming out of the fog. But will I get that chance? I caught my attorney this morning and had him stop the serving of divorce/custody papers.

It's time to be the good soldier, suck it up, and concentrate on the mission. The war can be won...or could have been. I screwed up the last battle...and maybe cost the war. now I just have to wait for intelligence reports to see where I stand, our marriage stands. I mean her no harm. but will she believe that and come back to the negotiation table (using my military jargon here)? I want to do SOMETHING to rectify this. but maybe that is the point...STOP trying to do something and just let something happen.

Waiting for orders...and another chance.

Out.

Mortorman:

Wow, a lot happens while I'm gone!

This caught my eye:

"Later on, she called and I LBed big time. I told her I couldnt take the OM around anymore. She asked me to be patient, that she was just starting to get comfortable with me this week. But I pressed on like an idiot, and told her to pick him or me. She said she couldnt, then handed the key to my house back and said I should do what I want."

We BSs want so much 2 have a black and white, cut and dry, decisive victory over these things that it's almost funny. Except it's real. Look, my WW has never left me for her OM. And she "thought" she'd ended her A before D-day in January. Now, after all we've been through - the LBing arguments, all the "getting and protecting behaviors" we've BOTH been flailing around with the past 9 months, we've been getting along very well in the past 3 months, and she STILL can't cut contact. What do I do? Well, I could make a demand, like you did, and risk blowing it. But I should NEVER WANT 2 make demands. She's seeing "reason" on her own, and has said many times what your W is saying, that "she is trying" or "she needs time". Well, it's no sweat off my stones 2 give her more time, and since I truly believe that I can't control her, and that includes making ANY decisions for her (demands), I'm damned well going 2 give her more time.

And all the while, we're getting closer. And since her OM is trying 2 rebuild his M, this A (email only these days) can't last. It just can't.

And the same will be true for your W's A, if she's given the oppor2nity 2 think about IT and what it means 2 her LIFE and her FAMILY, and not be worried about your attempts 2 control her.

You can still do this, Mortorman. And in my humble opinion, you "might as well."

Take care,

MM,

I think you are forgetting one thing. You LB'd alright, but only about OM, not about her. This may have turned her around concerning coming home, but only IF she is searching for reasons to leave. If she is searching for ways to come home, this set back will cause her to think as it did you.

I believe if in her heart she knows she needs to come home and that you do love here, that this will pass. It will only be fatal if she was just looking for ammunition. You cannot know which it is, but my guess is that she still wants to come home, if she can figure out how.

That my man is part of what you will need to be addressing in your own mind. As 2L said, this is not a black and white situation and it never will be. There will always be shades of grey and things that cannot be put back into place.

This takes time MM,give it the time it takes.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks 2Long and JL....that is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

If I have any clue into my wife, then she was trying to find a way home. Had even told her mother on Sunday (the day before this happened) that she was coming home. So, I hope that if I just Plan B, let things settle down, and when she contacts, get back to what was working (namely just being myself), that my hope is that she truly does want her family back. I just get this sick feeling that she might use this as the last straw, so to speak. Especially since OM responded in such a positive fashion, and even has told her he would marry her if she leaves.

Trying to be optimismtic...fearing the worst.

"Fearing the worst" is what lit your fuse.

Let go of fear. Fear is your enemy. Ask your God to hold on to your fear for you, because it is too heavy for your to carry.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pepper...this is exactly what I realized yesterday, when I spoke to my pastor.

The biggest reason I think why we haven't been able to move forward is not her sin and disobedience, but my own due to my lack of faith and listening to Him. I was doing that last month, and here she came back to me to start working on things. Then, when things kind of slow down some, I try to give it a shove due to my lack of faith and impatience at how long it is taking Him to work the miracle.

As a former pastor used to say, when somethig is wrong, God comes up with the fix. But we dont wait for the fix to take, and come up with our own fix that all too often ruins His fix. then He has to come up with a fix to fix the fix He originally had in order to overcome the fix that we tried to introduce. now, keep that going as I add another fix to His fix...well, if this hasnt utterly confused you, you can see that the mess is made all to often by ourselves and our disobedience in not trusting Him.

I asked myself this question yesterday...and the answer made me calm for the first time in all of this...ready for her to try again. The question is...which is worse 1. the sin of adultery or 2. the sin of disobedience in not trusting Him to take care of us when He has promised to do so? The answer is neither are worse, not better. I have walked around in my disbelief, trying to "save" my WW. In reality, all I did was continue to delay God's fix, and His blessings.

So, I ask for prayer in my fear and disbelief. It is not up to me to save anyone. The sooner I learn that, the sooner I can calm down and stop being an idiot.

I have jumped back into His arms.

Well all...it gets worse. If I am not sabotaging myself, others are.

If you are aware of what has happened over the last year...while I was gone to Bosnia, and with the affair going on, there were friends and family that hired a PI and did their own undercover work.

Well, I tell people this week that what looked promising was now dead due to my pressure on Monday and guess what? They go out and start trying to collect more info. They put a recording device in her car. Well, I was telling the people responsible for this just this morning that I havent given up hope and I am going to wait on the Lord...and they tell me they put this device in. But, to find out...sometime this past weekend, she found it!

Satan is having a field day with me. just when things are going well, then I pressure her and tell her OM or me...causing her to walk out. And now she has found a recording device in her car.

Can it get any worse? Why would she come back now? Why is it we have gotten so close only to have it all pulled away out of stupidity? OI mean, it would be one thing if there had been no hope. But due to my screw ups trying to save this marriage, and her continued betrayal and not getting OM out of the picture, added to the "help" I keep getting that she finds out about and causes her to distrust me even more...I might as well give up!

Everyone, including my WW, is trying to sabotage my life and the lives of my kids. I might as well call it quits because I know my WW...and she is going to look at all of this and wonder why she decided last week that she might be coming home. That she wants her family, buit doesnt want the bull. I bet you she is saying right now...time to cut the losses. If she wasnt back in the fog before, she has to be so deep, that I cannot see a scenario where she finds her way out of it.

Of course, any words from me will be meaningless. I had a great life before I got deployed, a great wife and a great family. And due to my problems as well as my wife's sin, and events surrounding us, I just now reached the point where it looks pretty hopeless.

I left a message for her explaining that I didnt know anything about that. But it wont matter. She will look at it as another reason that she is just not going to be able to get it back. And especially not be able to let go of her safety net...the OM.

Why is this happening? All of it! It's as if the point to everyone around me is to destroy my life. We could have it all back, with all of the problems that started this mess gone. I can see it. She even started seeing it. And just when things are coming around, I get nuked. I guess at some point you have to realize that you arent going to win this...not because it shouldnt happen or is possible, but because something always will fall in, it seems, to screw up everything. Starting with me.

Mortarman,

Do not give up hope. Let go and Let God now. Our prayers are with you. This whole situation has been very difficult. You are doing your very best do not be so hard on yourself. You have come so far there is no one thing that is a make it or break it event. To coin a legal term you have to look at the totalitary of circumstances. One thing I think you have learned although it is difficult to live with is that we only have control over our own actions. You cant control her, the OM, even your friends. (I would however inform them their assistance does more harm than good)...Remember this, it is not asking too much that your wife be a wife...It is hard to take the blows she dishes out without wincing in pain. I know your turmoil. I have lived through similar circumstance. I have seen my spouse live a fantasy life destroying whomever came in contact with him. Somehow, someway he now has opened his heart to God and the right path. It has taught me that anything is possible. But most of all it taught me that he had to realize what kind of person he wanted to be and not just what kind of person he wanted to be with. It is ok to have feelings, you have missed her and reconnecting intensified both your love and longing for her. Hopefully the woman that she once was will recognize that and understand that your impatience is related to your devotion and not a sign of controlling behavior. It would be different if your demands were unreasonable keep in mind they are not. NO OTHER MAN=NO MARRIAGE. It is simple and universal. It would be one thing if she remained out of the house devoted to shcool and nothing else. This is not the case. She is dating. Confused, lost, scared...all of these terms do not diminish the fact that she is living outside of her marriage vows, regardless of physical involvement. Relationships are complex but there are simple guidelines that are not unreasonable, nor impatient, nor demanding...the simplest of these guidelines: foresake all other, cleave only unto him.

My continuing prayers are with you and yours at this difficult time.

ayslyne

Hi Mortar,

I hope I can recall what I had written. I accidentally pressed the escape key and poof, it was gone.

Anyway, you have been given some good advice, so I won't repeat it.

I will tell you how stressful being a nursing student is. I will assume your W's progam is as intense as my program. With most college classes, if you fail a course, okay it is a bummer, but hey, you can repeat it. Yes, you have to pay again.

With the nursing program, you fail a course, you are done. To repeat the course, requires permission from the Dept. of Nuring Board, and they don't grant it to everyone who requests. It is rare when they do. Usually you have to reapply to the program and start over, assuming they accept you again. One student in my class last year failed, and he was told not to bother reapplying because they will reject his application. So, if he wants to be a Nurse he will have to apply at a different school.

In my school, they keep telling us, if you work full time, you will not make it through the program. I work fulltime, so I tune them out. I have to, otherwise, it might affect my performance.

The grading criteria for most college classes are standard nationwide. Anything 69% and lower is a D. In my school, if you don't pass with a C, you are done. And anything below 78% is a D. So the criteria to get a C is higher than in most college classes. I've taken other types of college classes, business, art, psychology, I played around alot. I hardly studied and got my A's and B's. In the nursing program I study my tushy off to get the C's and B's, (I mostly get B's)(remember I work fulltime, and have 3 children I am raising, my H does not do much to help me around the house. He thinks because he is there for the kids at night, that that should be enough for me.)

This semester I failed my first test, passed my second test and it raised me to 79% (just above passing). I just passed my test today with an 85%. (Which is a C). There is not much room for error, so the pressure to do well is always present. All it takes is one or two bad tests, and you might as well hang it up.

They are always stressing how, you need to put the Nursing program first. Clinical grades are dependent upon Clincal papers you hand in and Clinical instructor interpretaion on how well you do.

My first semester, when we had skills test out, there was one instructor, everytime I had her I failed. However, she would pass others who made the same misatkes (we talked afterwards, some were my friends). With skills test out, if you failed one, you had the opportunity to retest one time. You were only allowed to fail two. If you failed 3, you had to go to the board and request permission to stay in the program.

Now, you ask, why am I telling you this.

When individuals are under extreme stress, they don't make the wisest decisions with regards to their personal life. Now, lets add the fog from an A. Total chaos in the cognitave thinking catagory.

How long do you think it will take OM before he LB's if she does not have much time for him. Probably not long. Beside, if she missed her family once, she will miss it again.

You need to be supportive and understanding of the pressure she is under with regards to Nursing school. (If my H did this, he would put major $$ deposits in my bank) Be supportive in ways that make her life easier, such as, like you did with the empty refrigerator. Ask, and I mean ask, dont' tell or order (will be taken as controlling) if there is anything you can do for her to help her out. When she has a test coming up, use her notes and quiz her so she knows what knowledge she is lacking. Oh, did you tell her how proud you are that she is in the top of her class. That is not easy to achieve.

Now, for me, being in the top of my class does not matter. What I care about is passing. I try for the A, hope for the B and am happy with the C because I still passed and I am in the program still. However, I do not leave much room for error on the tests, so for me, I get very nervous with every test because I'm worried that this one may be the one that puts me out of the program.

Does this help to understand her stress level, which may be influencing some of her irrational thinking. She needs space, and less stress. She has lots of it. Any extra that you put on her, will be more than she can take.

Many times, I find myself in tears saying how I cannot deal with the issues of family and school and work. I think I'm at the end of my rope and dont' know how I am going to cope.

Good luck to you and one more thing. Before you decide to do anything like mailing a letter that was written in frustration and anger, come here. Write the letter, post it here. Don't sent it.

When you are serious about sending a letter, get feedback from the wiser MB'ers before mailing. This is the place to vent, not in a letter sent to WW and OM.

Take care, and I hope things turn around again

Ouch. Bad timing, indeed.
What you got to do now is to publicly tell your "friends" that they should stop meddling in your affairs, that this is between you and your wife, that they should apologise, that you in the next event will consider criminal charges.
Of course your wife blows and loses trust! I would too. Make it not a "her against you+mates" but a "us against them". kick up a big fuss so that your WW knows where you stand. and frankly, you have all reasons to be pissed at your PI mates.

Thanks for the latest posts..Sue, asylyne, Nick. I cannot believe what a difference a week makes. And it has been hard to look my kids in the eyes knowing that I had a chance to make this all work, if I had just kept my mouth shut. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway, I have told those involved to butt out...that the next time I find them involved, I will give up their names to my wife so she can try to get them prosecuted. This is not the first time they have screwed things up for me and my wife. I just want to be left alone with her. No family, no friends, no OM, no PIs...no one. Just her and me. in our happiest times, we relied on no one. Except each other. If I could just get back to that...just her and I looking each other in the eyes, then I know this crap would all stop. That was what was happening over a week ago, with just her, me and the kids. then I go off to the counselor, she tells me I need to make sure OM is gone before I allow anything to happen, and I run back like an idiot and start making demands, and follow them up with angry outbursts. If I just had stayed home that night and not gone to counseling, we'd still be working on this. Instead, things are VERY bad.

I talked to her very briefly last night. I wanted to talk to her about the recording device. She says she thinks it was me, because she found the device on the same day that I had left a note in her car. But, I checked with the guys who did this and they said that the device had been there since Wednesday, and they had changed out the tape earlier on Saturday morning. What idiots. They even put it in an easy place to find. But, she does not believe me. said "I will never trust you. You leave a love letter and then do this at the same time. I do not want to talk to you anymore. I have nothing. But I am going to get myself together and make myself into a good person again." How's that? On her own? After destroying her family? After destroying her God-given husband? After her kids are permanently scarred for life? After she wakes up one day and realizes that this "good person" really isnt so good after all, and had not followed the ways of the Lord, but her own way...which leads to destruction? how in the world do I get her back to the table after this?

She is pissed off!! About me pressuring her, and then about this tape deal. I have been an emotional mess, and she doesnt like it. why would she? but I have warned her time and time again since I got home in April that this mess will not stop, that the "stupid stuff" wont stop happening until she makes a decision to commit to this marriage again, to her family again, and to get the OM out of our lives. She was so close...and I blew it. I know she wants her family. I know she loves and wants me...but when stuff like this happens, it scares her away because she thinks that things will never change. but she will NEVER find out, especially before it is too late, if he doesnt step up and make a commitment.

Okay, so we all know OM is destined to LB again and again. But, her attitude is what I am worried about. Anger is the worst thing for her, because it causes her to do VERY destructive things (witness the affair). She would very much close me off, close off her feelings about me, and refuse to let herself out again...even if she saw the error of her ways. She is a very stubborn woman. Plus, I think the OM will see this as his opportunity to push her over the edge. He will get her thinking that "see...it is never going to change...you tried...now, let's get on with things." And right now, she trusts this guy more than anything, even though it is he that has led her to this point.

Again, in my heart, I believe she wants her family...and deep down wants the Mortarman that she fell in love with. But, with me LBing because of OM, plus I am emotionally a mess and not myself, added to the fact that she seems to undermine me just when things start getting close, I just dont know how I makes her see reality before it is too late.

I have now started to get back to my faith in God. I should have been there all along and I wouldnt have LBed so much. I definitely wouldnt have done what I did last week! I love my wife more than anything, as well as my kids. Why does she only see the bad stuff, the stuff that happens because I am hurting, and not recognize the two weeks prior and all of the good stuff? Why is love not enough for her anymore? Why cant the OM stop destroying her, her life, my life and my kids lives? I have prayed constantly that he realize this and just go away. it is his corrosive presence that has been a threat to me, and a safety net to my WW.

Guys and gals...the Lord has a very big mess to clean up now, thanks to me. But in the end, there is free will. And I just dont know if my WW allows herself to come out of the fog again. She would rather live in the fantasy world she has created, and find happiness somewhere else, and believe it will all be okay (because her parents went through this, as well as the OM), so everyone will be fine and she can finally be happy.

What now? I have closed down communications (gone back to Plan B). I am so angry with myself for doing this, although I know that under normal circumstances, I would have never done these things I have (LBed). I am trying to have faith that God will show her again through this. But it is so hard. Especially when my gut says that she is done.

Hi Mortar,

At this time Plan B will be good. You need to protect your own emotions.

I think your friends are really your friends, which I think they are. They were concerned about your welfare and happiness. Yes, they were out of line. So, what they need to do is go to WW and admit it was them who did this, and apologize to her. They need to be honest with her about why they did it. And let her know that you had no knowledge about it until she found it.

This will give her something to think about. Don't expect results right away. She will need time to calm down and process the information. In time, maybe she will realize that your friends intended to protect you, and ask herself, does she really want to lose her family over this. Right now she is thinking with anger. See how she is once the storm passes.

Now, about you. Stop worrying about OM. Concentrate on you and your happiness. I know she is part of it. You cannot let her be your whole happiness.

I think what your counselor meant when she said that you need to make sure OM is gone before you allow anything to happen, was that you should proceed with caution and guard your emotions and those of your kids. But not to confront WW. (Unless I am mistaken and he/she said you should confront her).

Here is how I would have handled the situation. I would have continued with plan A. I would not mention OM, except when WW does. Keep emotions in control when OM is mentioned and let WW steer the conversation and end the converstaion on OM subject.

My reasoning is:
one-she has not totally committed to moving back home

two- if you push on the OM issue, she will resist, last thing you want to do is give her reason to go to OM.

three - when it is over, she will tell you.

4- if she did not say OM is gone, and wants to move home, then, objectively you can ask what is the status of this R with OM. At this time, you tell her, if OM is still in the picture, then no, she cannot come back, there is no room for him in this M. If you were to have this sort of convesation, be factual, and leave the anger out of it. The fact that you are not angry will bother her. And she will wonder if she pushed it too far and that she may have lost you.

If OM gone, then welcome her home with open arms.

Leave the anger at home, better yet, leave the anger anywhere but home and don't bring it with when seeing WW. Timing is everything. Along with keeping the emotions in check.

You see, right now, she still has you and she knows it. Maybe not on a conscious level. When you did Plan B, she got worried that you were gone. It got her attention. Go back to Plan B, Plan A in her presence. Do not make any attempts at contact except when child related. If she asks, you can be honest and tell her that her R with OM is too hard on you, so you need to distance yourself from the situation. You are not blaming her, you are not blaming OM. You are stating what you need to do to protect yourself. Don't let her goad you into a convesation that might get your emotions going. Keep them well protected. If you sense that it is getting the best of you, stop the convesation, and tell her that you don't want to discuss this at this time. Another option is, as long as OM is in the picture, you don't want to discuss your M. You have options here. Seek them out and do what works for you. You see, when you tell her that she has to end it, you are trying to tell her what to do. If you tell her that you cannot discuss this while she is still seeing OM, you are stating that at this time you dont' want to discuss this.

If anyone else disagrees, pleas say so. Or if you can elaborate on what I said. Please do so. I'm not sure if I explained myself clearly. (I know, very wordy)

I have to take D to dr. I will come back and see if you need more support.

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Mortorman:

"Well all...it gets worse. If I am not sabotaging myself, others are."

Well, others are others, they're NOT YOU. If I were you, I'd tell these OTHERS 2 stop meddling. They DON'T know what they're doing. What are they going 2 accomplish? You already KNOW the A is still going on. More "dirt" won't help her end it (and I said "her" because it's ENTIRELY UP 2 HER, not YOU, and certainly not these OTHERS).

"
"But, to find out...sometime this past weekend, she found it!"

Does she think YOU planted it? If not, then don't worry about it. But do try 2 get the others 2 stop tailing her.

"Can it get any worse?"

Yes, you could be ducking sniper fire or being bombed. At least you don't currently have THAT problem.

"Why would she come back now? Why is it we have gotten so close only to have it all pulled away out of stupidity?"

You won't be the first person on the 4um subjected 2 a stupid act. And this won't be the last, likely.

"..I might as well give up!"

Give up if you think that's a viable solution, but I am pretty darn sure you DON'T. You're smarter than that.

"Of course, any words from me will be meaningless. I had a great life before I got deployed, a great wife and a great family. And due to my problems as well as my wife's sin, and events surrounding us, I just now reached the point where it looks pretty hopeless."

Ah, sin. The greatest excuse for our bad behavior of all time. Sorry, MM, and everybody on this 4um, but THIS is one of the primary reasons I'm an atheist. I don't believe in "original sin" and "good and bad" as absolutes. I like what Shakespeare once said: "There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."

Why is this happening?

If there IS a god, and I know you believe there is, then it's probably so you will GROW and LEARN and become a better man. There's always a lesson in our troubles, we just have 2 find it!

"We could have it all back, with all of the problems that started this mess gone. I can see it. She even started seeing it. And just when things are coming around, I get nuked. I guess at some point you have to realize that you arent going to win this...not because it shouldnt happen or is possible, but because something always will fall in, it seems, to screw up everything. Starting with me."

Do me a favor, MM. Get yourself a copy of Greg Baer's book "The Truth About Relationships" It's helping me 2 not LB COMPLETELY. It's helped me 2 let go of ANY and ALL attempts 2 control my W (including making any demand that she cut contact with Rat Meat). And the results are textbook MB plan A: She's got the "room" and "time" she needs 2 sort out her own thinking and figure out how she got in2 HER mess without worrying about what I might or might not do if she doesn't "behave."

You can STILL save this sitch. And I believe, truly, that there are NO OTHER CHOICES. Because if you simply DV and "move on" you won't have learned the lesson that your God wants you 2 learn.

Hunker down, MM, and KEEP DOING THIS.

MM,

Will you please quit the whinning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Yes, you made a mistake but that mistake didn't end your marriage nor did it stop her from coming back. THe fact is she hadn't decided to come back, and your LB did help tip the scales in your favor, BUT she had not committed to come back and work on this marriage or your LB wouldn't have had the affect you seem to think it does.

Now your FRIENDS, acting without your knowledge, are on thin ice and if I were you I would make sure that they did indeed back off.

You have gotten some great insight from Sue concerning what your W is going through. You have gotten good advice from Lexxxy and others. Back off, heal yourself (you are in no condition to be married to anyone right now), take care of your children, do your job, and get a life. That means occasionally get a babysitter, and go out with some of the guys and have some fun. Get some time to do things you enjoy.

If you are going to Plan B, then start getting your life straight and that starts with you and your children, not your W.

She is using all of this as an excuse to have her cake and eat it too. Yes, I am sure she is ticked off about finding a recording device in her car, wouldn't you be? I would. But, you didn't do it and you only have a little control over your friends. Apparently, they are having more fun getting the "dirt" on her, than they are concerned about how this affects you, your kids, and your W.

So settle down, quit blaming yourself, learn, grow, and heal. That is all you can do.

So soldier get with the program, it is a tough one but it is one you can do.

God Bless,

JL