Hi Terrified,

how are you??? Hope you are fine.
Do we really wanna do it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I mean should I really write a letter???
Hey remember I'm a woman!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Can someone help out with the email address???? I only have one and I really don't want to make it public.
I'm not very good with this computer stuff.

I'd also need some help writing a letter to you, but I want to do it!!!!!!! If it takes this to "wake" your H up, I will do it!!!!!!! So maybe you guys can give me some help so that the letter doesn't sound phony.

If someone is good with computers, they could maybe even get some kind of picture set up.
A pic of "Terrified" and some cute looking guy. (someone from MB'S??) Then we could get the letter going. Explaining how we (me the guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) met and that I'm soooooooo sad that I had to go back to Europe and that I got the film developed and wanted you "Terrified" to get this pic.
Maybe we could even considerwriting that I (the guy) would like you to visit to Europe and that (me, the guy) would pay for everything! (I wouldn't because I'm a girl, but we could just say that in the letter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> but it wouldn't even be a lie, because if I was a "man" I honestly would pay for everything)
We could write that I (the guy) am considering to come to Canada around December and that I'd be more than happy and very excited to see you "Terry". That's even the truth!!!!!!!

Terrified, is there any way that we could mail privately? I have some interesting things, I'd like to tell you. You are from Canada aren't you??? (so am I)

take care
bb

I agree with Orchids advice of tread carefully...
illusiveness is the key...

If you come on to strong as there being a significant other person...your hubbys gonna take that bait and run you into the ground with it...

although flowers being delivered with a cryptic note that just says thanks...is really thought provoking...one can't miss seeing them there on the table....your answer...hmmmmmmmm....it could be from some new friend..or even funnier say they are from a friend of yours whose husband ADMITTED to cheating on her...and you and her have been talking a lot...and you have been helping her DEAL with the whole mess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !!!! especially since you are becoming soooo experienced at it....almost an expert... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> then drop it and walk away....

Could that POSSIBLY have anything to do with him...?? Not Mr. Clean.... hee hee...

Think independant strong...with just hints into your new activities and life....

And I am very serious after a few weeks of getting him guessing...to hand him nonchalantly that assetts list....no longer sit back and wait for him to get pissy about this or that...and then attack you on these issues...you force the hand....take control of those things....

I also think you should mention parents with out partners..if they are in Canada...or look into some other support group...and mention to him you are considering...if scared to say it out loud....look for their literature and just leave it on the counter....

I also say sometime in the next four -five weeks drop in on him in little bachelor pad heaven..ESPECIALLY if you have never been there....do it with some great christmas gift you bought daughter..say you thought he might want to see it now...since he probably won't be there when she gets it...and to make sure he or his mom didn't buy it as well...Well dear gotta run...meeting friends for more shopping and a bite to eat...so many holiday activities..so little time.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> :0

And while I am not big advocator of game playing in your case terrified....you go girl....The only game you've played so far..is the angry game with him as the dealer......and enough is enough...

Terrified I still believe in my head that this as gone on for so long the same old way because he has yet to face one ounce of his own responsibility and role in any of this...and that is to your advantage....force his hand a little and lets see where it gets you....
strength to you
ARK

Another viewpoint here -- Terri, you are playing a very dangerous game. Your H has already been violent. Why you don't put a stop to his emotional and physical abuse by going to Plan B is beyond me.

Have you been 100% up front with the Harleys about how he's really treated you? I cannot imagine them telling you to stay in Plan A with the way he is treating both you and your daughter.

This is devolving into a very sick situation. It has dragged on for months with no sign of change. It is not going to stop, and it is not going to change, until YOU do something to stop it. Your H is not going to change a thing because he is completely in control and he knows it. Playing games with him is not going to help a thing and could very well get you hurt.

Sitting and waiting and hoping and praying for a WS (especially one like yours) to suddenly see the light and decide to do the right thing is an absolute exercise in futility. YOU have to take responsibility here and do the right thing -- Plan B or even Plan D -- instead of shoving all the responsibility onto a man like this while you do nothing but throw up your hands, take his abuse, and wonder why you and your child are miserable.

Just another viewpoint.

Wow, I wasn't aware that Terrifieds WH is physically abusive as well as emotionally abusive! Terrified is this true?

Hello everyone and hugs to all for your replies. Are you guys getting sick of this saga...my is now threatening that he's going to the lawyer on Monday and will serve me because that's the only way I'm going to "GET" it. He was biding his time so that I could get used to it and accept it...yeah, right.

Update...H has been fairly angry ALL week. Wednesday he stormed around the house telling me that I had papers all over...why wasn't I cleaning them up. Cynic truth...I was waiting for him to tell me to clean up!(LOL). Real truth...I was organizing drawers/old magazines for the recycle box so I had two piles BUT working and having a three-year old prevent me from finishing all tasks.

Today, he walks in ANGRY...I have an 8:00 a.m. meeting and had asked him to be at the house earlier. I mean he's REALLY angry. Hateful actually but I didn't let him ruin my mood. Normally, I'm a morning person.

So I figure he's talked to the OW. I called the OW to remind her that I'm still pushing for my marriage...I'm coming clean. I know I shouldn't have...but needed to...didn't remind him, just her. I know...huge LB that I didn't need at this point but hey...things aren't getting any better and rustling a few feathers probably set me back BUT in the overall scheme of things...I'm not getting very far and I'm well, a little MAD that she gets to keep living this fantasy away from the harshness of the situation to which she's contributed.

Of course, my H leaves me a message this morning and calls me sick (yes, I'm the psycho wife). I've lost it, he says. Believes I'm blaming other people for my problems. Says I'm his biggest problem right now...on and on... Says I should read the book about the cheese.

BUT...some good things I did do...since Thanksgiving I have not talked to his family about the situation at ALL. No apologies, no justification. Yesterday, I dropped off my D at school and dropped by my IL's to see my younger neice. Had a wonderful conversation. I sensed that they miss me and of course, I miss them. I walked in upbeat and stayed that way.

Also, bought some chocolate chip bagels for him so that he could share breakfast on Fridays with D (his favorite). He grumbled...and didn't care.

D and I went Halloween costume shopping. She wants to be Snow White. Didn't tell my H. Didn't show my H.

Okay, now on to your feedback.

Blond...thank you for wanting to help. I was just thinking of something simple like a two liner "Thanks for your hospitality while visiting Toronto. Look forward to seeing you again soon." Illusiveness (Ark) is the key. Leave more to the imagination.

And besides, I'm not a really great actor.

PB, I've thought about your viewpoint many times and often agree in times when I find myself alone. I'm being told by many of my family and friends to do the same thing but Steve H. says Plan A until I can't Plan A anymore...it's all upt to me. So I believe he knows best.

Thanks again.

Terri,
Did you forget me? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Kidding!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I'm still working on my marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Terri, my dear!

I do hope you can get some resolution - perhaps the more we all tell you to drop this guy, the more determined you become to try & make it work. Believe me, I wish I had a special person in my life as comitted to me as you seem to be to him!! Perhaps we are all a little jealous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Something doesn't seem right here when basically we all try hard to treat our respective S's the proper way & the try our best to nuture a good realtionship. And you are such a nice person & you get stomped on all the time and then you turn around & are always so committed to continue to try to win this guys attention and seek to re-unite -- It is almost as if the more abusive he is, the more resolve you show to try & win him back! Maybe we should take some lessons from him? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Imagine for a moment. It could be a little scary, if you think about it, but bear with me for a moment here -- What if he wrote a self-help book -- How to win the undying love and devotion from a wonderful woman & in this book he describes how he treats you. What if this caught on & became a best seller & he is on talk shows & more men start practicing these tenchniques? What if men started going to classes about adopting these strategies & we taught our children that these are ways to treat others to win love & respect -- Can you imagine, do you think there might be some back lash, some resitience to this kind of a movement? Can you imagine the sate of our society & the outlook for the future if this caught on and became like a serious obsession as a model of how to treat each other?!!

Is there anything wrong with this picture? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Please pray about this -- if he came back tonight -- As he is with all of his abuse, becasue no matter how you slice it, he is very abusive; is this the guy you want to spend you life with? It does not sound like very much fun to me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
Can you give us a good, solid ,expanded version of his best traits? And what you like the most about him? Are you truley, madley in love with him? (obviously, no matter how he treats you!)

Please go the the verbal abuse web site -- I did not even realise that I have been as abused as I have - I always thought it was me, that I was too sensative -- I know it is hard - but try & be objective & think about your own happiness & safety.
You mentioned that your H & the OW were having some difficulties -- Is it possible that the OW is beginning to see your H for who he is?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I am rambling! -- just felt compelled to get this off my chest --
Take what you like & leave the rest!

Still love ya!

Best of luck to you!
Prayers are with you!
Bob

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

<<<PB, I've thought about your viewpoint many times and often agree in times when I find myself alone. I'm being told by many of my family and friends to do the same thing but Steve H. says Plan A until I can't Plan A anymore...it's all upt to me. So I believe he knows best.>>>

Again: Is Steve Harley fully aware that this man has been physically abusive to you in the recent past? Is he fully aware of the ongoing verbal and emotional abuse?

Every instinct I have tells me you are in a very dangerous situation here. You are ignoring every sign and signal your husband is giving you -- every nasty word, every push and shove -- by telling yourself it's "fog" and "he doesn't really mean it."

Sometimes the explanation of "fog" is right on -- lord knows I've heard enough of it. But this man has been so consistently nasty and abusive throughout this situation that maybe, this time, he really DOES want out. Maybe the only reason he's in your life at all is because of your child.

I can understand why you don't want to believe that and why it's easier to let other people tell you he doesn't really mean it -- but sometimes you have to go with what's right in front of your face, which is a cold, cruel man who plainly has no love or respect for you, says he wants a divorce, HAS MOVED OUT OF THE HOUSE, has an OW, and (I feel sure) would never again give you the time of day if not for your daughter.

You need to find out for sure if this is "fog" or if this is a man who really does want out but just doesn't know how do it because of the child. No one deserves to live like this, certainly not you and not a young child. Plan B would tell you for sure what his feelings really are -- and with all due respect, I think that's why you won't do it.

You know what his response to Plan B will be. But continuing to Plan A lets you keep him around, interact with him, and tell yourself there's still hope. In the meantime, no progress is made and you are dragging a child through a nightmare existence with no end in sight.

Again: Is Steve Harley fully aware that this man has been physically abusive to you in the recent past? Is he fully aware of the ongoing verbal and emotional abuse? I don't recall the Harleys ever encouraging anyone to stay in Plan A with this kind of stuff going on.

Ask Steve Harley to read the thread where you described how your H "threw you to the floor," and then let us know what he says.

If your H wants out of the marriage, there is nothing you can do to stop him. It's not your fault that it happened, and it is a very sad thing. But clinging to false hope and putting yourself and your child in danger is even worse.

Please send that thread to Steve Harley.

sorry, duplicate post

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

T, His latest angry attitude is in response to your lb.. calling the ow. DONT DO IT.

THings can improve when you improve, let it go.

Try cking out divorcecare.com
I dont know if they have it in Canada- but I have been giong-a nd it is helping me recharge and learn.. as JENN CHAMLERS.. sd.

To do everything I can do to save this marriage. NO LB.

The lbs help a blaming ws to blame you more and justify his behavior.

Love him as Christ loves us.. stay away if you can't.

I do think, that your h like mine.. will blast you for any ANY ANY LB. SO just don't do it- for the sake of your D and you.. as I know you want your family.

I know you are trying, and doing great - but honey
always catches more flies.. that is why the harleys advise plan a ... so often.

I do think it can win back his and your love. It is helping me, and everytime I lb, even very very small lb.. yesterday I found mex. money in h's apt... NOW I know it wasnt from the mex... but his trip to mex., but enough for me... and I sd something..

so... LB again.

anyway... I am going keep up the Plan a. Kudos to you.. I also know what it feels like to have everyone tell you to dump him. We both know.. this terrible behavior is not the man we loved, he is still in there.. and the church commands usto love. He is a sinner, as are we.. and this is a fallen world.

Keep believing in him T. U will be ok! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wow...alot to think about as usual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is Steve Harley fully aware that this man has been physically abusive to you in the recent past? Is he fully aware of the ongoing verbal and emotional abuse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say that he is...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every instinct I have tells me you are in a very dangerous situation here. You are ignoring every sign and signal your husband is giving you -- every nasty word, every push and shove -- by telling yourself it's "fog" and "he doesn't really mean it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I assure you...one thing I'm not sure of is whether it is fog or the real thing. PB, all I'm doing is hoping for change...honestly. Whether that's right or wrong, good or bad...I don't know.

It's hard when you have children. How do you instill good values...

HH, I haven't forgotten about you. And I'm glad to hear that you're still battling...you're a good soul.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do hope you can get some resolution - perhaps the more we all tell you to drop this guy, the more determined you become to try & make it work. Believe me, I wish I had a special person in my life as comitted to me as you seem to be to him!! Perhaps we are all a little jealous. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it works both ways. The more people tell my H to come back, the more he wants to stay away. We have always been fairly strong willed.

However, I don't support his behaviour or his continual abuse, lack of respect, etc. He is not a role model of a loving and respectful husband. Are any WS's?

What do I love about him? His vigour, his eagerness...he used to run up the stairs when I came home from work and pick me up with excitedness! His creativity...he loved decorating our home and making it beautiful! His sensitivity and love of family...used to visit my mother during the day just to have a coffee since she lives alone, used to visit his older uncles/aunts and do the same thing...he loved to make dinner for the two of us (since he always came home first) and he would sometimes light a candle no matter where we were eating...
he zaniness (he taped a song a poem for me and drove to where my car was parked during the day so that I would be surprised with it at the end of my day)...

He was great in so many ways and severely critical in others...but we were good together for a very long time. I wonder if he's angry because he doesn't want to remember...

I don't know anymore.

Take care!

Wow!! The H you describe is so very different from what he is right now. It's no wonder you want him back - because you really know what he is capable of, which is SO MUCH BETTER than what he's up to now. What a shame - for him! And Jenna too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> since now is when she is remembering things for the rest of her life (my memories start at around 3 yrs old, that's what I'm going by <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Snow White sounds lovely!! I sure hope the weather is co-operative this Hallowe'en. It has been pretty good for the last 3 yrs. Eric is going to be a clown this year, and gets to try out his outfit at a party in my dad's co-op (next door) tomorrow afternoon. He's so excited!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> As far as the twins go, I won't take them out 'trick or treating' unless the weather is mild enough. If it is, then Jonathan is going to be "Blue" (blue's clues dog) and Alex will be a devil (he's the evil 'brains' of the duo, and Jon Jon is the 'doer'). We have a small assortment of 4 costumes now, from Andrew and Eric already. So I don't have to buy anything this year. Yippee!!

Sorry about the commentary... hehehe... I just wanted to let you know that I'm still following your threads. I just don't have much of anything to add to them of late. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

Hey Topie, Thanks for replying. Yes, that was the H that loved me and of course, since he no longer loves me, this is the new H...a side of him I've never known. And of course, I was pretty lucky before...took him for granted but I won't go into that anymore.

He hates me so much right now. It's evident.

PB may be on the mark about her assessment but I didn't go down without a fight.

D wanted to be Snow White. I had seen a costume in the October issue of Parents magazine which I really liked and was going to make...Statue of Liberty but...you know three year olds. She probably wouldn't wear it if she was dead set on Snow White.

Blues Clues is cute. So is a Devil. Toddlers always look adorable in everything!

I do also pray that the weather is agreeable (at least).

Take care

Terr,

Let me preface this and any other post that I trust that you will do anything and everything that you need to to ensure your safety...and advocate you not doing anything that YOU believe put you in any harms way....

Have you asked your husband why he appears to be so angry all the time...and how long exactly does he plan to continue to be so mean...

And if tries to blame it all on you...have you told him that it is imperative for the sake of your daughter that you two need to be able to work together at dealing and addressing this "situation"...

And that him entering your home so hostile is a direct cause of you or any other human being on the face of this earth not being able to "work' on this or anything...

I guess what do you have to lose in reminding him of all those nice things you posted...and tell him how confused it makes you to see someone, that regardless of what he thinks,... you do still care about...be so different....

And that sometimes from your confusion of not reconizing this person in front of you...you react as well in ways that hurt him....and you know that....but he is so different...it leaves you wondering how in heavens name the two of you will ever get back to being "friends' and decent to one another,.,,for the sake of your family...

And that logically it would seem that you two need to come to a place without all this anger shoved your way...that you can't stand to see him like this...and that even though it is easy to blame all of this on just you....it's just not reality....

I guess if all you get is anger and blame...what do you have to lose...and it can be a start to setting limits on how much hostility you will continue to let in your life and home....

Oh one more thing...daughter is snow-white...you ofcourse without question you must be the EVIL QUEEN...
ask hubby if he has chosen his costume yet???
Rumor on the street is it's a toss up between DOPEY or GRUMPY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know...what do you think???
ARK

Sweetie,
I'm curious -- how are you able to Plan A? If he comes over angry all the time, what are you doing that would be considered Plan A?

What are his EN's? Are you meeting any of them? Which ones aren't you meeting.

This is all about LB deposits right? If you make enough of them, he will feel more love towards you -- so what deposits are you making?

I hate to say it, but I think you're in a holding pattern and not making any progress. I'm not sure why you continue in Plan A, if you're not going forward. (And remember, I don't think Plan B is the answer either, it will only provoke his anger)

You can keep going if you want to, but I think you'll be in the same place 6 months from now. Is that what you want for yourself? Is this working for you?

Hello everyone,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me preface this and any other post that I trust that you will do anything and everything that you need to to ensure your safety...and advocate you not doing anything that YOU believe put you in any harms way </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trust me. He doesn't care about what I do. Doesn't even lift an eyebrow that I can see. He's so heavily fogged and I believe it's fog since he's become so forgetful about EVERYTHING.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh one more thing...daughter is snow-white...you ofcourse without question you must be the EVIL QUEEN... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I don't even have to dress up.

Without question, we need an eighth dwarf for my H and I won't say what his name would be...

Lex,

I just tried to call you but I think I've got the wrong number. Perhaps you could email it to me??

Plan A? I guess I remain upbeat. I focus on other things.

I don't know anymore. I think he's really going to go the lawyer this time.

Help me Lex.

Just an update...

D has ballet Saturday mornings. It's a good Saturday morning ritual since one of my best friends is also there with her daughter. Yesterday my friend has asked me to do her hair in the afternoon for a wedding.

We had plans after supper for a visit with a friend of ours.

Dropped off my daughter at the friend's house and said I'd go pick up some treats.

Drove to my H's appt...he did let me in but only with a struggle...walked in and really thought I could be elusive BUT...it was only my first time.

Looked at me and said...see, this is what you've driven me to...I said nothing and just looked around. The reality couldn't stop the tears.

No bedroom furniture. Just the bed. The second bedroom was the sports room. The kitchen had our old table and folding chairs.

He did buy a couch and tables. They were nice. And a lamp. Nice too.

I continued to say nothing. More tears while he ranted about me going there.

Does this make you feel better? He yelled.
I said nothing.

Get out, he said. I told you I didn't want you to be here. I told you I didn't want to hurt you with this. Why didn't you listen to me?

I left stonefaced without a word. I got into my car. He called my cell phone three times. I answered and hung up. The next two times, I did the same thing.

It's over. I feel it in my bones. It's time for me.

I went back to my friends with the treats. I had to clean up a bit in the car. D was having a good time with the kids.

Was a little quite.

D fell asleep in the car. God knew I needed that, I think, so that I could drive home in silence.

I put D to bed. Then went to all our pictures and put them away.

I can't look at them anymore. It's time. It's really time.

I guess I remember Lor saying something about me not realizing how emotionally distanced he's become...he's more than that.

He's convinced. He's determined and he's not coming back.

And he has a home without me. And he continues to have a relationship with another woman.

And I know I should be past the sadness and the tears after a year...but they still flow freely.

Even as I write this which I believed would just be more therapy.

This morning, I'm going to the annual family and friends Pier 1 Import sale with some friends.

I had already arranged for H to come by at 8:30 a.m. to watch D before last night.

Now, I don't know how I can look at him. He's hurt us so much.

Terrified ~

I can't tell you how many times I told myself it was over. It wasn't.

You seem very focused on forcing yourself to "get it" when really at this point nobody knows.

Your husband's anger has gone on for a long time - BUT - I think I'd be more worried if he was apathetic. I think you have a particularly difficult situation because your H's OW is overseas, and therefore theres alot of fantasy and no reality. Your husband has gotten comfortable feeling like a victim (so he doesn't have to take responsibility). I think the fact that he hasn't file for divorce says it all. His excuse that he is waiting for you to "get it" is total BS. If he really really was sure, he'd have divorced you a long time ago. More and more, it sounds to me like your husband is covering his fear with anger.

Anger in his case (IMHO) is a desperate attempt to regain control of a life that is truely out of control. He is scared and uses the anger as a shield to protect himself.

He sounds truely lost, and fearful and lashing out at the world like a great big baby who isn't getting 'his way'. Life didn't turn out the way he feels that he deserved it, and so he's looking everywhere but inward for the person to blame.

You seem to be an easy target for his blame. Soooooo...what can you do to step out of the path of fire?

When's your next session with Steve?

It was my thought that maybe you ought to try agreeing with your husband that it is over. Now that you have seen his new "home", and seen how angry he feels about it - why not purchase some gifts to make him more comfortable? I am thinking of some nice wall pictures, some plants, maybe some new bath sheets, etc. Your husband wouldn't expect a housewarming from you would he?

I would just run it by Steve before you try this - never in a million years would I have tried to make my husband's pad more comfortable and nice....BUT...your husband is so focused on the excuse that you don't "get that its over" as his excuse, it might help inject some reality into his life and shake things up more.

Just say to him that you love him, you are sorry he hates his home so much, and it made you sad to see how he was living, and you want to make sure that he is more comfortable in his new place.

Call his bluff. You are no longer Terrified. You are strong lady, a good mother, and a loving woman.

T- I did what BR suggests and my h loves it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I brought him towels , sheets - glasses for the kitchen.. some of his favorite from here.. we had too many anyway. One day in good plan a we went dollar store shopping.. I remembered things a man does not think about for him.. dish towels and the other stuff.. to help him be more comfy.

A friend of his gave him a plant and how he loves to take care of it.. they do feel a little lost in their own place.

HE IS LIVING THERE ALONE.. be grateful T.
It could be with an ow.

I know the anger and upsetness I get when going to my h's place.. but if I am sweet and kind when I go there... guess what? I get invited back- bite your tongue and close thoase tears... pretend you are dating - what would you do to make him have a better home? Eventually he will see how much you love him.

If you are in plan a, do it right, it works. Everytime I am sweet in the face of h's temper tantrum's an d childishness... and seperateness... etc and blame, etc. I think he thinks to himself - GEE what a woman???

He tole me himself yesterday.. when I am unemotional , more like my old happy self, confident, happy, etc.

IT WORKS T!

I know the devestation of seeing your h's place. At least you didn't break anything! I got angry and nuts! I really lost it.

YOu are just upset and crying, you will recover, I know every time I go over there... I seethe a little.. or am tempted to try to snoop.. and he hates it. The more I ACCEPT The situation the better it gets.

I think you like me, try to deny what he is doing. It doesn't really help. Accept it, take your side of the streets responsibility clearly to him.. let him know you are sorry for not meeting his needs.

Have you written him an apology type relationship letter remeinding him of those happy times.. .apologizing for your mistakes? ANy I miss you cards. I do that, and they work with my h. I noticed he had my cards on his windowsill... but NOT A WORD TO ME ABOUT THEM. He even sd once, the ow would never send him a card.

Show him he is special. I view this type of h to an immature child.. rebellious teen... love him back to you t. In small doses. I think your mysetery.. ideas are good too.. Mix that with some loving attention.

Do something nice for him. DOn't fight. Dont answer the phone if you know he is angry and calling... hang up if he is mean to you, "i'm sorry I cant talk to you like this"

It works T! I slip and slide and mess up.. but these love depositis help ... It can bring him back, wake him up and save your family.

My h... I think I sd above- sd he gets weak when I am kind, nice and not upset.... Being upset scares them away. These MR> HAPPY romantics are looking for that ALL THE TIME>. that is what the fantasy is all about.. finding a recluse of no lbing and happy happy.

Do it as much as you can- in the future when he is home.. learn a way to deal with conflict better than what you two have done... I know it is hard.

We can do it T!

(((((((((((((((((T))))))))))))))))))))))

I know you are hurting, but KILL HIM WITH KINDNESS. It is not over.

Honey

T, All I could think about when reading your update while visiting his apt for the first time was, "It's HIS choice!!!". Is it possible that the next time he is so bitter about his place (dare I call it home??), gently remind him that he's only there b/c he chooses to be. That you would love to have him HOME with you and dd, so that you two could work on the M together. And then leave it at that. Just statements, no questions or accusations (well, I guess reminding him that it's all his choice IS an accusation in a way, isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

It's true, that it's probably not over yet. I bet his excess of anger towards you in his apt was out of shame and embarrassment.

I too, like the idea of getting him some things for his apt... but instead of items for him alone, how about some extras for dd? So that he won't have any excuses not to have her visit there for overnights?

If you give him gifts, it'll be an LB, b/c he'll feel as though you're flaunting money in his face. If you don't give him gifts, it'll be an LB, b/c he'll feel you're being a *itch and a snob. Either way, it's an LB. It's up to you which LB stance you're most comfortable in taking, I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Karen

Terrified,

I am sorry for your pain...
The good news is that seeing it hurt this time..but now you know...and it will get better...
sounds not like he has created some haven or cool bachelor pad with lava lamps and retro art...but kind of a cold shell sort of how he is feeling....

Interesting that this man who wants to be away from you..and daughter...because regardless of how he manipulates his actions in his head..this is what he has chosen....has done nothing in his surroundings to make it comfortable or warm for his daughter...
If i was really serious about leaving my husband and left my children...(gasp)...be darn sure all resources would go into making a place that my children felt warm and safe in....He still deosn't appear to have made any connection between I want out...to actions that really support that...

I think you should say to him...look if you really really want this to be some all nice cushey break up...then realize that none of your anger or yelling is in any means a way to make you willing to process this....and that he needs to be able to talk to you respectfully and without yelling...and that includes when you come to his place....

Start using terminology with him that define his actions since he doesn't quite make that connection.....I believe you get it better than him...

And again because this man has yet to process any of this with any other emotion than action than anger...this is far from over...cause in reality nothing has even begun...

peace and sanity to you
ARK