Hi guys,

Chorus I know that you have responded to some of my posts before regarding this issue so I was wondering what you and some of the other BH's out there thought. My H has major insecurity problems and as I said before I feel like I am serving him his self pity on a silver platter. Now almost a year into recovery this is getting rather old and I have had to give myself several attitude adjustments to prevent myself from blowing up and major LBing.

Anyway I think there is one single act that I did about 5 months ago to prove to my H that I am here for him, I am all his. We were on vacation and I had his name tatooed on me(I won't tell you guys where <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). My feeling is that should be my proof to him that I am all his, the rest should just be a bonus for him. I mean everytime he sees it he has to know that I mean what I say enough to do something that drastic.

Just curious on your thoughts on this one. And by the way, no I am not trying to get out of the reassurance thing, just would like it if my H was a little more confident.

DU

Oh man, what a hornet's nest this has stirred! I got Twyla smacking me, Kat chiding me, and so on and so on.

Ok, you want the straight poop from a diagnosed low-self-esteem mama's boy who never trusted anyone, including himself, and didn't think he could ever ever ever trust ANY woman in his life not to hurt him? Oh, I should add I'm on "logical adult mode" right now, so ask me again in four or five hours and I'll get the inner child out for you.

YOU cannot bolster all his self-esteem. If he's insecure, it's because he doesn't trust his own ability to survive pain. He doesn't trust himself.
That's not to say you can't do some things to make him feel better (a tattoo? Got any pictures? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), but at some point, he has to stand on his own two feet.

FWS nailed me with that little missive not long ago. Grow up or it's over, essentially what she said. Now, that's hard. His child is going bananas and wants reassurance. And telling him to get over it isn't reassuring.

Still, you have options. First, maybe HE needs to see an IC for his self-esteem issues. It helped me. Second, there are gazillions of books and stuff out there to help him out.
And third, there's the old "Honey, if you're feeling insecure, let me show you my tattoo" trick. Put on Joe Cocker singing "You can leave your hat on" and reveal all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You never know. It might really be that simple. But, as I said, you can't fill that hole in his self-esteem. FWS knows it. I know it. It's a big freakin' hole and all the reassurances in the world can't do the job. He's the only one with a shovel big enough.

Gee, lets see...when you decided to betray your husband - marriage vows didn't protect him, a wedding ring didn't protect him, taking his name (if you did this) didn't protect him....why on earth would a tatoo on your backside or anywhere else for that matter protect him?

Maybe it's your rather selfish attitude that is causing his ongoing insecurity?

You caused this problem. You wanted to avoid the consequence of losing your husband, so you wanted to reconcile. Well, this is what you have to do if you want to avoid that consequence, it means for as long as he needs it, you do what he needs, instead of coming here to complain about it.

I know I'm being hard on you - but I've been on the receiving end of betrayal, and I'm in a pretty sucessful recovery. My insecurities are MUCH better, because my husband didn't decide FOR ME, when I had had enough reassurance. In fact, he voluntarily reassures me even a 15 months into recovery.

If your husband is still this insecure, its probably because of you and your actions, or lack thereof.

Why not ask him what he needs to get over it? Then DO IT, no complaining, no whining.

You don't get to betray your spouse, and ask him to take you back, and THEN dictate his needs.

Chorus,

Thank you again for your insight, and you were right I did stir quite a hornet's nest.

BrambleRose,

I am sorry to have struck a bad note in you as a BS but I am not only the FWS here. My H chose to have a revenge A on me, so in my opinion that puts an entire different twist on things. It kind of x's out his ability to be extremely needy don't you think. I mean really if I defined myself as only the FWS and never mentioned about my H's A, in the opinion of most here I would have no right to be "needy" at all. Now slap that FWS label on my BH and that is different now isn't it? In essence when we see BS as the label we have empathy, when we see WS no empathy, but really what about BS/WS?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Gee, lets see...when you decided to betray your husband - marriage vows didn't protect him, a wedding ring didn't protect him, taking his name (if you did this) didn't protect him....why on earth would a tatoo on your backside or anywhere else for that matter protect him?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The tatoo is a personal thing between my H and I and he knows how I feel about tatoos in general. Not to say that the tatoo is for his protection but I guess I got the tatoo for the same reason some renew their vows.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe it's your rather selfish attitude that is causing his ongoing insecurity?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't find my attitude selfish, apparently you didn't read the last line of my post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You caused this problem. You wanted to avoid the consequence of losing your husband, so you wanted to reconcile. Well, this is what you have to do if you want to avoid that consequence, it means for as long as he needs it, you do what he needs, instead of coming here to complain about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought I did recall that part of the MB principles were to learn that both parties had something to do with the A. So I don't think I alone, "caused this problem". And as far as, "as long as he needs it, I should do what he needs". Well he screwed up too. The following is something I said on a previous post of mine:

"All this stuff about reassuring him, is great but how much is too much. At some point shouldn't the WS be able to say "enough is enough". Is there some point where the WS can say "ok, I screwed up but no one is perfect and I am no longer serving you your self pity on a silver platter". I am sorry if I sound harsh about it, and I don't mean to offend any BS's out there, but I am starting to think that my H is taking advantage of the sympathy I am freely handing out."

BTW, I am not a doormat, or his slave, to be there for his every becon call just because I made a mistake(one that shouldn't be made light of, but a mistake none the less).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know I'm being hard on you - but I've been on the receiving end of betrayal, and I'm in a pretty sucessful recovery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said I have been on the receiving of betrayal also, my H is very far from innocent in this equation. We are also in a successful recovery, successfull not perfect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My insecurities are MUCH better, because my husband didn't decide FOR ME, when I had had enough reassurance. In fact, he voluntarily reassures me even a 15 months into recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I have to agree with "Chorus" on this one

posted by "chorus":
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But, as I said, you can't fill that hole in his self-esteem. FWS knows it. I know it. It's a big freakin' hole and all the reassurances in the world can't do the job. He's the only one with a shovel big enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your husband is still this insecure, its probably because of you and your actions, or lack thereof.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all an insecure person is an insecure person, period. My H was insecure before the A because of the way he was raised, my A did make his insecurities worse, but they were pre-existing. His insecurity pre-A had nothing to do with my "actions or lack thereof" just like his need to build self-esteem will have nothing to do with my "actions or lack thereof", self-esteem comes from within. I have every reason to be insecure, the OW lives 5 min from us, OM 100 miles. I am not insecure because I choose not to be, it has nothing to do with the way my H acts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why not ask him what he needs to get over it? Then DO IT, no complaining, no whining.

You don't get to betray your spouse, and ask him to take you back, and THEN dictate his needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My take on this last part of your post:
My H betrayed me with an OW just as I betrayed him with an OM so who is to say that I should not be dictating his needs also. My thought is that we need a clean slate, there are no innocent parties here. No one should be dictating their needs to anybody. Isn't a M supposed to be a team anyway? A partnership, not a dictatorship right?
And for the record the recovery of my M was a mutual decision to forgive and recover, no one did any begging here.

DU

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H chose to have a revenge A on me, so in my opinion that puts an entire different twist on things. It kind of x's out his ability to be extremely needy don't you think.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it doesn't X out his "ability". What you meant to say was "right" to be needy, am I correct? Whether or not he is right to feel insecure, the reality is that HE IS. Its not your right or job to decide if he has the "right" to feel what he feels.

Besides, the fact that he had a revenge A doesn't mean that you get a "get out of jail free" card. Part of recovery means figuring out WHY the affair occurred. What I am saying here is that while I would never condone a revenge A - a BS is left pretty darn vulnerable - as your H was. So your affair played a part in setting the environment for his...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I mean really if I defined myself as only the FWS and never mentioned about my H's A, in the opinion of most here I would have no right to be "needy" at all. Now slap that FWS label on my BH and that is different now isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh no. It doesn't change even one iota of your responsiblity for YOUR behavior and your obligations to repair that with your husband. The whole thing about recovery is figuring out what needs are unmet and learning how to meet them so that the affair doesn't occur again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In essence when we see BS as the label we have empathy, when we see WS no empathy, but really what about BS/WS?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't be in successful recovery without empathy for a WS. What I have no patience for is WS complaints about doing what it takes on to stand up and repair and take responsibility for their 50% of the work that recovery takes.

Recovery is not for the faint of heart. It's damn hard work, and the Taker on both sides of the R wants to run rampant complaining: "Its too hard, he/she wants too much, his/her needs are unreasonable - what about meeee?"

Its pure selfishness. It is usually a disrespectful judgement to diagnose your partner as suffering from "issues" of whatever origin and then decide that their needs are unreasonable as a result.

Both me and my husband have a whole rack full of issues - we have enough for a whole newstand.

We both accused each other of all kinds of weakness, vulnerablities and hang ups that made the other's needs unreasonable.

When we both stopped whining, started taking responsibility, stopped blaming and judging, and started making choices backed up by action - we suddenly found that needs were being filled and a strong relationship started developing where before I would have said: "He's an alcoholic, his needs are unreasonable". And he would have said: "She's an unstable, controlling, needy and insecure psycho because of her dad's brainwashing over the years, she wants a fantasy husband."

As for your husband's self-esteem...Self-esteem is NOT the same as insecurity.

I had alot of self-esteem that I found within myself during my husbands affair. I *did* have insecurities when we tried to reconcile - which is something entirely different.

I didn't believe him when he said "I love you." I didn't trust his words without proof. I needed to hear that he did love, admire and want to be with me...because he had betrayed my trust.

One can be insecure in a relationship - especially in a relationship where betrayal has occured and protections are not put in place properly.

I would be willing to bet that your husband's insecurity has alot more to do with a lack of protection in your marriage (which is why you were vulnerable to an affair in the first place) than self-esteem issues. Security comes from confidence of knowing that your partner has your best interest at heart and that rules and behaviors are in place that protect.

THATS why the need for reassurance. He's not asking you to be his slave. He is needing more reassurance. Thats a HUGE difference.

I'm not saying that he doesn't have self-esteem issues, it may be that he does. But I don't think you have the right to just write off his insecurity as a self-esteem issue (which absolves you of responsiblity) until relationship is a safe place.

Your clearly angry about his affair. You can be angry if you want. You can waste your time complaining about what he is or isnt doing for you or you can roll up your sleeves and work on being the best wife you can be.

Trust me, the last option has the far better outcome.

BR,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it doesn't X out his "ability". What you meant to say was "right" to be needy, am I correct? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you are correct. Please excuse my improper wording.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whether or not he is right to feel insecure, the reality is that HE IS. Its not your right or job to decide if he has the "right" to feel what he feels.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said my H had no "right" to feel needy, I just think he takes it to extemes sometimes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uh no. It doesn't change even one iota of your responsiblity for YOUR behavior and your obligations to repair that with your husband. The whole thing about recovery is figuring out what needs are unmet and learning how to meet them so that the affair doesn't occur again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bramblerose,
I never said I was trying to pawn off my responsibility for my actions, I have taken full responsibility for my A. And if I do recall I am also a FBS too, and I chose to forgive my H for his A as well, we made a joint decision to work on our marriage together. I don't believe one of us to be more obligated than the other. And my H and I have addressed the pre-A issues that we had.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I couldn't be in successful recovery without empathy for a WS. What I have no patience for is WS complaints about doing what it takes on to stand up and repair and take responsibility for their 50% of the work that recovery takes.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You keep ASSUMING that I am not in a successful recovery with my H. And my personal belief is that it takes 100%, not 50% from each partner for a M to work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recovery is not for the faint of heart. It's damn hard work, and the Taker on both sides of the R wants to run rampant complaining: "Its too hard, he/she wants too much, his/her needs are unreasonable - what about meeee?" Its pure selfishness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just, FYI I have a very supressed taker, I rarely say "what about meeee?" Anyway are you suggesting it is "right" or ok for a BS to have the attitude "well you hurt me so you are going to pay.....forever!", because that is the attitude my H has. That to me is "pure selfishness".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is usually a disrespectful judgement to diagnose your partner as suffering from "issues" of whatever origin and then decide that their needs are unreasonable as a result.

Both me and my husband have a whole rack full of issues - we have enough for a whole newstand.

We both accused each other of all kinds of weakness, vulnerablities and hang ups that made the other's needs unreasonable.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bramblerose,
Why are you so angry with me? Why do you insist on making judgements? I am going to quote some scripture on this one that might be helpful to you:

Matt 7:1-5 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

I am not deciding when my H should be needy or not. I am only suggesting that, I don't trust all of his neediness as being geniune. And if it is genuine, I don't understand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When we both stopped whining, started taking responsibility, stopped blaming and judging, and started making choices backed up by action - we suddenly found that needs were being filled and a strong relationship started developing where before I would have said: "He's an alcoholic, his needs are unreasonable". And he would have said: "She's an unstable, controlling, needy and insecure psycho because of her dad's brainwashing over the years, she wants a fantasy husband."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the difference BR, between you and me. I am "whining, and complaining"(if that is what you want to call it, I call it venting or just trying to understand) on this website NOT to my H. I do care about whether I hurt his feelings, and meet his needs. And I would like to understand why he is this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for your husband's self-esteem...Self-esteem is NOT the same as insecurity.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, although I never said they were the same, but they do go hand in hand. And by definition they do more or less have the same meaning, it just all depends on how you want to interpret them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would be willing to bet that your husband's insecurity has alot more to do with a lack of protection in your marriage (which is why you were vulnerable to an affair in the first place) than self-esteem issues.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BR, Do you have that plank in your eye again?
It amazes me how you can be so judgemental. Iam not telling you(a person I don't even know at all) why I think an A happened in your M, it is not my place, that is for you to figure out. I know why the A's happened in my M. You misconstrue my feelings about whether my H has genuine insecurities, into me not addressing the real "issues" that caused the A's. That is the furthest from the truth you could possibly be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Security comes from confidence of knowing that your partner has your best interest at heart and that rules and behaviors are in place that protect.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have since day one of recovery been reassuring my H, proving to him I want him and our M. I am where I say I am going to be, he can always get a hold of me when he needs to. I let him know ahead of time if there are going to be changes in my plans, and I have no problem being checked on, after all I no longer have anything to hide.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THATS why the need for reassurance. He's not asking you to be his slave. He is needing more reassurance. Thats a HUGE difference.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't live in my house. For a WS to say "If you really love me you would get me a drink, and the remote, and dinner(now), and rub my back, and, and, and, etc., I really need that reassurance that you do love me" is going a bit overboard. It is like a child that becomes hurt or ill. The parents become sympathatic, the child sees the sympathy they recieve as a result
of being ill or hurt. In turn, hours, even days after the child truly feels better, the child will not tell the parents he feels better or may not even act better to continue to gain their sympathy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not saying that he doesn't have self-esteem issues, it may be that he does. But I don't think you have the right to just write off his insecurity as a self-esteem issue (which absolves you of responsiblity) until relationship is a safe place.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is my whole point BR, the R IS in a safe place. He knows it. I know it. I'm not writting anything off, and yes he does have self-esteem issues that "HE" needs to work on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your clearly angry about his affair. You can be angry if you want. You can waste your time complaining about what he is or isnt doing for you or you can roll up your sleeves and work on being the best wife you can be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to know exactly how you perceive me as being "clearly angry" about his A? I haven't wasted any of my time on OW and don't plan to, she's not worth it. If I seem "clearly" anything it should "clearly upset", and not about the OW either, about the fact that my H and I have hit a plateau(not a bad one, but still a plateau) and I feel like my H is not helping us get past it with his childish "I'm gonna make you pay" attitude.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Trust me, the last option has the far better outcome.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, BTDT.

BR,
Other than what I have said already it seems like we just need to agree to disagree.

DU

DU - Gosh, I dunno. I'm thinking if my WW got "Riff" tattooed on her, um, ankle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , how would that make me feel...

Ya know, I guess that it wouldn't help that much. See, OM (also married) goes to our church, so it's not like he didn't know about me.

I like the symbolism of it (though it's kinda like being "branded", isn't it?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

I think the kind of reassurance he seeks is not a one time thing. It can't be fixed w/ a one-time act. It's on-going. And it kinda comes and goes in waves...some days I'm real certain, other days, I'm real not. And, over time, it gets better.

Riff -- You know, come to think of it, I don't think I'd be too thrilled if my FWS got "Riff" tattood on her, um, ankle either... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DU -- As you can see, some pretty strong opinions here. I get what you mean about pandering to his insecurities, but a lot of BSs can relate to both his insecurities AND the whole pandering issues because Plan A is really all about meeting the WS's needs, and that just strikes a lot of folks as wrong and unfair. So, keep that in mind when you read very strong, opinionated posts.

The good news is, these people are coming straight from the heart with what they think is their best and purest inputs. Consider all that is said. You might find a gem of enlightment in the pile of coal.

Riff,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I like the symbolism of it (though it's kinda like being "branded", isn't it?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL, I know I felt this way about this issue long before we got married. It was my way of showing that I would do "anything", go to any extremes to prove that I want to be with him.

Also if you are real certain some days and real not on others, are there days when you feel like you have the "you hurt me so I'm gonna punnish you" attitude?

Guess I just want to know if he is "faking" it.

Chorus,

So, in my case since we are both WS's shouldn't we be meeting each others needs(I'm not saying that we are not just a hypothetical question). Also, I thought Plan A "is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. Plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. "

DU

DU -- Ah that darned doubleWS paradox. I know I run around here like I'm this poor downtrodden good guy wondering why -- sniff! -- she just won't meet my ENs, and then adult Chorus comes in and reminds me that I was the FIRST to wander, and hadn't severed my last EA until AFTER the D-Day.

So, yeah, technically you would be right. She should be trying to make a nice nest for me, and vice versa. But, heck, doesn't really matter. In the long run, the goal is to meet each other's needs and eliminate those doggoned stupid annoying behaviors. Now, seems to me, he's being annoying. So how do you handle that?

Talking?

But here's an interesting thing I found in your original post on this: You said you "defined myself as the FWS" -- understanding you meant that in terms of the post. But, have you also defined yourself as the FWS in your marriage? How about talking to him about rewriting that definition. Maybe you guys could go with "Co WSs" or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Point is, you're not a doormat. If you feel wronged, then let him know. But LISTEN when he tells you why he does these things.

Hey, gotta punch. Keep me in tune on this. I'll be gone for a couple o' days, but will check in Monday.

Have a great weekend. Go show your H your tattoo and see what happens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Chorus,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But here's an interesting thing I found in your original post on this: You said you "defined myself as the FWS" -- understanding you meant that in terms of the post. But, have you also defined yourself as the FWS in your marriage? How about talking to him about rewriting that definition. Maybe you guys could go with "Co WSs" or something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point, I think at this point he is really still strugling to "get over it"(sorry if that sounds harsh). We did talk this weekend though and I did have the guts to tell him (in a gentle manner) that I feel like I am serving him his self-pity on a silver platter. It was a heated discussion at first but ended in a very nice way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He has this "I can't" attitude about everything though, and my "I can" personality thinks we need to work on this big time. So we are working on that. But, hey at least we are working on it. A couple of years ago he would have said "leave me alone I am normal I don't need any help".

Can you tell I had a good weekend?

DU

Shh... don't say anything to anyone. I said my goodbyes to the Forum earlier today. I'm taking some "Me" time, but I wanted to check in on you. I'll still be lurking, so keep things up to date.

On your latest -- In a lot of ways, you are catering to his self-pity. I've been in his shoes, and yours, so I have a decent perspective on this. By now, you probably got the whole "Inner child" thing, and understand how it applies. Well, here's something to remember: A child likes to have an adult around, even the inner child.
You may really have two choices here, if you honestly believe you have apologized, showed remorse, commitment, etc. In other words, if you're at the end of your rope.
First, there's the old "ignore the screaming and he'll stop" approach. You see this in the stores all the time. Kid wants a toy, has a tantrum, mom ignores. Well, sometimes it works, but that means your H has to be in a place where he is ready to grow up emotionally. In other words, you're banking he'll get this bright light in his noggin' and go "Oh, jeez, I better straighten up." Well, ok, that might work, or you could tell him, but it's risky.
Second, the tough love approach: Straighten up and fly right, [censored]. We have a marriage to build here, and you jerking around isn't helping a damned thing. As they said in the Right Stuff: I'm cooler than you are. Light this candle.
It kind of puts the onus on him. If he wants the marriage, he has to realize the role his self-esteem has played in it's damage.
Or, there is the third option, but you probably won't go for it: Be his emotional lap dog for the rest of your life. Some people can do that. Some can't.

Ok, that should suffice. Like I said, I'll be lurking. Keep me up to date. I like your perspective. Makes me understand a bit what my W is going through.

Good luck. Kick butt, take names and come out of this feeling better about yourself.

Chorus