OK, whenever I post that things seem to be looking up or changing, I always seem to shoot myself in the foot as something radical then happens! Anyway, two things which have happened this week.

Firstly, I had to work away this week and left home Monday night to stay at my Mum's house for my work out of London on Tuesday/Wednesday. H was really helpful on Monday night as I had to go to IC and didn't get in till gone 7.00pm and was trying to get ready to leave. He helped pack my things, offered to make me food for the journey, telephoned to re-new my car insurance, and was generally "different" and more positive towards me. We spoke whilst I was away, and as I say, everything seemed OK.

When I got back on Wednesday night, H came in and said "Well, I've had an interesting proposal". At first my heart sank because I thought that the person who he works with may have come up with something about flats. Basically, he's been offered the opportunity to work (temporarily, as cover) in a special team in Germany for one week in every month for the next 3-6 months, and also continue his role in London.

From his point of view, it would be good to "keep his hand in", and also shows that the organisation hold him in high esteem (good for his morale etc) - he was the first person they wanted to do the work. He should also get some extra money etc. He asked me how I felt about it, and laughingly said "Do you think you could cope without me?!" (again a show of the warm change towards me). I really don't mind (it could in essence only be 3 weeks). He also said it wouldn't really then be appropriate to move out if he wasn't going to be here full time. I think he wants to do it.

Anyway, he was out last night (a birthday do), and I knew he'd have a few drinks, and was a bit worried about how he might be when he came home. He came in and I popped downstairs. He was standing in the kitchen just looking at something. I said "Hi, did you have a good time, what are you doing?" and he said "Looking at you" (a photo on the wall) and smiled. He came over and gave me a hug and smiled at me in a really warm way.

I don't know, and as I say, I always seem to shoot myself in the foot when I think things are changing, but this week I have seen a definite change and improvement (in both of us). For me, I feel that there is a connection and a want to communicate that has been lacking. H has also shown me that (in the main), he is not going to resort to angry outburts, disrespectful judgements, even if he has had a couple of drinks, and this makes me feel more willing to let my self defence wall down.

Something just feels better, more positive.

I'll keep you posted about H's decision.

Thank you everyone for your support here. I cannot begin to express how important it has been for me.

Lisa

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Lisa,

This sounds so good - its so nice to read something positive today! Hopefully this is what JL kept saying to you, that he would "soften", that it would take time, but that there would come good moments and then good times, and then those good times would become more freqent until they outweighed the bad. Lets hope this is what is happening.

Take care,
LIR

Lisa,

Time and patience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It really does help.

I think you will find as you can bring yourself to let your H into your heart again, you will see huge changes in him. Why? Dear Lady, the man is in love with you. If you believe nothing else believe that he has been, but has failed to show it as well as you would like, and has been hurt. I suspect if you continue to improve your approach to him you will see many new things.

Your right! Your are not off of the rollercoaster yet, but perhaps the dips won't be so deep and gut wrenching.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you LIR and JL

The weekends are always a telling time for us, and usually result in some sort of discussion with words becoming heated. Hopefully we can both continue this more positive attitude whatever happens. I know that I'd like to do that.

Yup, not off that roller coaster yet, but maybe the ride just got a little less scary!

Lisa

Lisa,
It sounds like things are going a lot better for you. It is encouraging, to say the very least.

Have a fine weekend,
H_P

Thanks H_P - the weekend was fine.

For the first time in I don't know how long, everything was calm, non argumentative and fairly normal! Normal is good!!

H has decided to accept the work in Germany and will be leaving for his first stint at the beginning of November for 10 days. Not sure how this will effect us, but he has said that it wouldn't be right to move out at this time.

I feel the last couple of weeks have been much better. H thinks the anti-D's have made a difference to me. He thinks I seem less on edge and more even. I have to say, that I haven't been crying every day and although I don't feel happy, I do feel more composed.

Thank you everyone as ever for your thoughts and words of support.

Lisa

Jeez I am away for a couple of days and you make massive improvements! Whats a man to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Great news Lisa. He is probably going thru what I did. Got to the point where he has realised his hurt and anger doesn't hold a candle to the love he has for you. Small steps but great news.

Neil.

So Lisa,
What in the world is happening?

When someone is as active as you have been, then is gone for a few days, I start to worry.

SS

Hello SS

No need to worry about me, I'm fine. Sometimes, I want to post here all the time, every last little thing, but realise that I have to live my life too. I spend quite a bit of time here at MB, sometimes just reading or adding something to another post - not that I feel I know anything, but you know, sometimes just some support to people.

H has now got the dates for his trips to Germany -he will be away for 21 days in total before Christmas. Quite a lot really all things considered. Funny, I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. In some ways, I want to support him, and I think this will be a good thing for him in a number of ways, but in other ways, I feel it puts us right back into "Limbo Land". Having just begun communicating again, looking out for each other, and generally coming into a smoother calmer phase than nearly the last 4 months, it's like he's running out. I know he isn't, and I know that this is much better for the space he needs rather than moving out, but I worry that this will put me back into "well, I have to be independent and get on with my life" mode.

As for me, I have to say, I think the anti-d's have helped, although the last few days I have felt incredibly sad again. I still think about OM, and miss him, and hate myself for that. I'm still not sure how H and I are to move forward or can move forward together. H talks alot about "I". "I might go on holiday, I'm going out on X, I want to do Y". Whether he is trying to protect himself too I'm not sure.

So not much new really SS, but thanks for checking in, and I hope my regular posts don't drive people nuts!!

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for me, I have to say, I think the anti-d's have helped, although the last few days I have felt incredibly sad again. I still think about OM, and miss him, and hate myself for that. I'm still not sure how H and I are to move forward or can move forward together. H talks alot about "I". "I might go on holiday, I'm going out on X, I want to do Y". Whether he is trying to protect himself too I'm not sure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Lisa, I'm glad that you are doing ok.

Maybe it's not OM, the man, that you miss but what OM gave you that is really the issue here. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope my regular posts don't drive people nuts!!

Lisa </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fat chance lady, we already ARE nuts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's nice to know you are alright. I agree that you can spend too much time here, I encourage you to have a life. It's just that we worry sometimes (even if we don't need to.)

I agree with TMCMan.....I wonder if it is what OM did for you that you miss. I know H isn't filling all your needs right now. I wonder what would happen if when he said "I am thinking of doing X" that you said "I would like to be with you when you do that." I wonder if he is "fishing" to see if you will bite.

Also, JL was/is right. More time. Keep working on it.

And TMCMan, you are right, you are nuts, I won't say anything about me, W may have me committed. I wouldn't normally say anything about anyone else, but you started it!!

SS

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Coffee Man and SS

Thank you both - glad to know I'm not the only "nut" out here!!!

I think you make a good point Coffee Man. OM was doing a lot for me when H wasn't here. It's something I need to think about.

SS, I will try that, but some things H are doing are clearly not intended for me.... He has picked up with some old friends (which is good), but they have made it quite clear that my behaviour is way out of line. They support H, and frankly are not interested in me. I would not be welcome, and do not need other people's negativity or judgement. I struggle enough with my own feelings of low self esteem and despair at what I have done and created, and what for?

Anyway, thanks for keeping an eye out. It's good to know that there are people out there.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Lisa

P.S. Anyone got any thoughts on H going away?

<small>[ October 26, 2002, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hey girl,
I just wanted to pop in and tell you I have been thinking of you. I hope this traveling of your husbands will be a positive thing. It sounds way better than his moving out. Plus, his feeling comfortable about accepting it shows he trusts you more. At least that is what it sounds like to me. I just hope you keep it up. Sounds like you 2 are doing way better.
Hugs to you,
Layli

hi lisa
your h going back go germany is not really a solution, nor will it help him & you. in a sense, it's the same 'reflex' all over again which helped to create the situation in the first place. but he has made up his mind, now it's up to listen to your feelings whether you really prefer him being away and react accordingly. if you wish him to be around, then be honest to you and him and do a great plan A with all the bells and whistles, like contacting him and saying you miss him. if that's not the way you feel, then so be it. but listen carefully what H tells you how he feels being away. does he miss you? is life completely apart from you really better? why is that so? etc etc.
take care,
Nick

So, have I got it completely wrong?

Layli, Nick thanks for your comments. Yes, Layli far better for H to have some space than move out, but Nick I agree with you too, are we just putting ourselves back where we started?

Anyway, this weekend, another turn. I can't believe that I could have got things so wrong. H and I were talking, and he said many things, but if I can get it all right, the essence is that he doesn't think he can re-build with me, yes we've been getting on much better, but that's only because we haven't been talking. He told me that although he cares for me, he doesn't know if he loves me, he doesn't want to be second best to anyone and that he is not very optimistic about our future.

I was of course surprised. Maybe I was silly to think that things were going better, but I thought they were. I thought we were truly being kinder to each other and letting our emotions take a rest from the awful strain and stresses of the last months. I honestly thought that now was the chance for both of us to let the calm phase that had entered our lives give us a chance to truly try and see if we could find each other again. I know that it had been incredibly difficult for both of us before this, H angry and hurt, me defensive and withdrawn.

For me, I had felt that knowing that he wasn't going to "kick off" again was giving me the chance to really think about us and whether we had a future together. Also, with him being so much kinder and nicer, it was easier for me to respond to. For H, it seems that he's pretty much decided that we don't. He says that although he trusts me on a day to day basis, he doesn't think he could ever really trust me again not to let him down in some way. He doesn't know how we can re-build, even though I've suggested MB principles.

I don't know if this is just another dip on the roller coaster, or whether he really means this. Yet again confussion reigns.

Thanks everyone

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

I'm sorry you're feeling this setback. I had thought that your H going back to Germany on a part-time basis would give both of you space - I thought it was a good thing that he felt he could go away, and trust that things would be OK.

Obviously, he does not feel that way - the element of doubt about what you will do while he is gone remains with him.

It may be helpful to re-read what Dr H says about this issue. That trust is not something we ever fully regain, and he doesn't recommend "trusting" your spouse. Trust is always there, ready to be broken. Radical Honesty is the only way to overcome this lack of trust - if both parties make a commitment to radical honesty and follow through with that, so that both parties can at least trust that their partner is telling the truth about their feelings, thoughts and actions, then a good, solid partnership can be achieved. This is different from simple "I trust". Perhaps if you found this article, and printed it off, left it for your H to read, let him know that it is normal and OK not to fully trust, but that this does not mean the R is irretrievably broken, it may help validate his feelings, so that he can live with his feelings, and also see that he can still live with you.

It is normal for him to wonder whether he still loves you - and you feel the same. I was told just a few days ago, by a very wise psychiatrist friend, that there are times in a marriage, when all we can do is cry together, knowing we have hurt each other. If we can rest with this until we are through it, we can go on, and love can be regenerated.

You certainly had issues between you before the A, that needed to be looked at by both of you. (The same for my marriage). It is difficult if he is not willing to recognize this and thinks he has been the perfect spouse. It may be that once he goes back to Germany on a short trip, and has a little regular space from the intensity of these last weeks being back together with you, that he will be able to slowly sort out in his own mind that he has also been part of the problem. If you let him know that you are still willing to work on things and that you are not going to look for someone else, he may finally end up being willing to come your way more.

I hope so. Try not to despair. Hope your trees and roof survived yesterday's wind!

LIR

Thank you for your words LIR - especially knowing how bad things are for you, I appreciate hearing from you.

I don't think H doesn't trust me in the sense of going off with someone else, I think he feels completely let down by my actions and whether or not (in the longer term) I would let him down in any other way. The way he describes it is that I abandoned him - ouch, that one hurts. He says that only one other person abandoned him, and that was his father when he died, and H was only 3 years old. So that is particularly painful for him, and for me to hear. I remember that part in SAA and will re-read it.

Another thing that H said to me yesterday is that, he doesn't think that he was the perfect H, he knows that, and he knows that I must have been very unhappy to do what I did. He believes that it was totally out of character and almost "not me", although of course it was me. However, what he asked me is whether I was unhappy because H was not there, not meeting my needs, or because I was unhappy with my life generally (including being unhappy with him). He thinks I may have been at a crossroads - perhaps it just wasn't enough, the 3 bed house in North London, regular married life etc. H of course knows me so well, that this is something I have had to think about seriously. He has a good point. Fundamentally though, he doesn't think that he was any different from any other time.

He also said a lot about OM being in crisis and using me for SF only - which hurts a lot. He says of course he would meet your needs basically to get you in the sack. This hurt a lot, because I don't think that was all it was about. Again, I'm not saying it was right and I will never justify the A, but if OM used me, I equally used him.

I think I should change me name to Confused in London, because that's where I seem to be constantly. I have an IC session tonight which I think I need. Also, I'm still not sure about the Anti-D's (a bit like you LIR), so have been reducing them down. Am definitely crying more again.....

Thank you LIR for taking the time out to respond to me.

Lisa

Hey Lisa, Nick or any others in the UK ~ how prevalent is caller ID for home phones on your side of the pond? If someone from the US in an area of the US that has caller ID calls over to your side of the pond (just outside London) will it show the caller's number or Out of Area or Unavailable or something similar?

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-1 year old
Status: One Day At A Time

Hi Lisa,
I tend to look at everything and say "How could I get some good out of this situation?"

If he goes to Germany, e-mail him once or twice a day and tell him how you miss him. ( hint - if you think hard enough, you can find something you miss) Tell him what is going on in your life, what things you like about him, how you can't wait until he returns. What you want to do with him when he does return. Make a negative into a positive. You would want to be careful what you say, and make sure it is true.

Perhaps you could plan to meet him there at least once?

Also, about the things he has planned that you are not invited to do.... this would be a good time to say "I encourage you to do things that make you happy, but I would like to plan something for just us to do, it would make me very happy to do XXX with you"

Along with the time that JL talks about, you should be making deposits in his LB as often as you can. Some of these I am talking about require very little effort, but will do much to help him feel you want him. Even if he says "No, I don't want to plan a trip with you," or "no you can't come to see me in Germany," you will still be making deposits.

As for his comments. If you have read the board for very many months, this kind of thing is common. At this point we don't know what will happen, so that is where the "time" comes in. Continue to give support and make deposits, and lets see what happens. It's still pretty early to give it all up.

SS

Lisa,

I know you are getting tired of me posting. But, this is pretty normal. If the BS begins to think that there is a chance and senses that the WS is at least considering a reconcilliation, then typically the BS starts to think about things (bad idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), and often comes to the conclusion that he/she cannot do it, and that trust will never come back.

Seen it here many times and it usually strikes between 4 and 6 months. Remind where are we with this now?

Also, this is the same man that said he wouldn't work on the marriage, and wouldn't stay for a LONG 6 months, but he is and has. He just doesn't understand that backing off on the LB's and giving it time is WORKING on the relationship.

So, I personally wouldn't let this bother you too much right now. Instead, continue your path to becoming who you want to be, enjoy your time together with him, see if you can come visit a few times while he is gone, AND give it the old T&P. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You knew I couldn't go a post to you without this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

A personal question that you surely don't have to answer. You at one time stated that you had no physical desire for your H, and if memory serves me correctly that you didn't want any relations with him. Is that still true, and is it true that none have taken place?

I think it is something you need to reflect on if things are not changing in this department.

I realize you don't know if you want to rebuild, which makes it very hard for him to know what to do, since he isn't into rebuilding in an active sense either. It may just that he feels you must want this marriage before he will put effort into it.

One thing is for sure is that he is thinking deeply about things as per his statements about his failing so badly in the marriage. Lisa, what I don't think you realize is that he is stating more about himself than about you. He is fearing his ability to make you happy more than he is fearing that you may do it again.

He is facing that you must have been very unhappy, and he views that as his fault. If you were to put yourself in his place with regard to this feeling you can see how the things he is saying would be coming out.

I realize that you don't want to encourage him, because you aren't sure about this marriage yourself, but to the extent that you do have feelings for him, he really really needs to hear them and see actions that are commensurate with those feelings. Hence my question about the physical relations.

Must go, but hang in there.

God Bless,

JL