I am tired and confused. I am nearly at my limit here and I'm hurt. I need to get this off my chest, and sorry guys, but you're the only ones I feel I can turn too. Everyone else just tells me to give up. Urrggggghhhh!!!!!

H is due out today - no show. Upset and mad by 3pm, ring H. H has had 'big night out with the boys' - too sick to ring, too hung over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Me - "It hurts that you have not rung me to tell me. I feel like you don't care about me. It would be nice if you had rung me, even friends would do this for each other".

H - "This is what I'm talking about, this is why I left, You are too controlling". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So I ask him what about the Dv, etc. He says the financial split is with the lawyers and the Dv he can't do yet. He tells me that because he has earned more than me he is asking 55 -45 (ie he gets more). This makes me angry, but somehow I am not surprised. Actually i am wondering if he has submitted the papers to the lawyer as my lawyer has not received anything yet. I ask him if we can not discuss this as we will end up fighting!

Anyway, conversation goes on. We talk about EN's and how I didn't fulfil his and he didn't fulfil mine. He gets defensive. I ask him to listen to me, as I have done him. I explain MB basic concepts (briefly).

I ask "if I told you that I could meet all your needs in the way that you want them met and you could be very happy, would you come back to me?" He said "yes". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I said that I am willing to learn how to meet your needs as you want them met. And that if he came back I would meet them as I understand how important it is (and give examples).

Also, I am willing to teach him how to meet my needs as I want them met (and give examples). I told him that I know he is scared that it will go back how it was (he gave me example). I said that that was valid and I was scared too. I said that I would guarantee that it wouldn't, that the whole experience had been too painful for me to suffer this again and I am committed to making it better. Further discussion re EN's, where we lived, etc. Talked about how it would be HARD work and we would have to make each other THE priority, and it would get easier as time went on.

I said that I would teach him how to meet my need, I even said I would iron his damn shirts if that made him feel loved!!! I explained, explained, explained and he actually listened.

Basically I sold, sold, sold. I have never considered myself a salesperson, but after I got off the phone I realised what I'd been doing. Selling myself and MB principles (can I get commission?)

I asked him if I could see him (my EN) He says he will still speak to SH and he won't see me before then. He dosen't have an appt until 31/10!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I told him that I think that deep down he really really loves me a lot and I wouldn't believe it if he told me otherwise as I know it in my soul -he went quiet.

He said that I he said that in Jan (after D-day) I snooped and got angry, blah blah. I said that yes, it is true I did that but I had just found out my husband was cheating, and what did he expect!!!!??? (I gave examples of women who had bonfire with clothes and took pickaxes to cars!)I said that if I didn't respond with anger there would be something very wrong!!!!!, but that I have changed now and am learning to control LB's too!

Finally, he said that he couldn't just dump OW like a piece of trash (!!!!!!!) and that there were her feelings involved (!!!!!!!). I said it was true that I would expect him to be respectful towards her, but there was not reason he could not break up with her as he had done with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So there. We spoke for well over an hour. I don't know what to think. I was really down afterward. I am tired of this ****. I want someone who cares about me. Please guys, help me get through until he talks to SH. I feel like I'm going to go insane tonight. Argghhhhh!!!!!!

Its up to SH now, I really hope this man knows how to do his job. God this is just too much. Otherwise I AM DONE! If this dosen't work, I give up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh Seahorse, I can really feel the pain you are going through. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I don't know your complete story and therefore I don't know if you will appreciate any advice from me. But I will try.

I'd just like to tell you that you shouldn't "give up". No matter how bad your situation might be right now, there is always hope. It is just very hard getting through this when he is still in contact with OW. (I hope I understood this correctly)

Have you followed going crazy's post?? You might want to get some real good advice from her.

I would call my H and I "recoveryies" (is that a word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) If anyone would of told me that we would ever have the relationship that we now have, I would of said they were crazy.

But it is possible, really, it is. As far as what I understand, you H is still "fogged up"? or??
If this is so, he seemed to have had a few wake ups during the phone call you had with each other. He does sound scared and he sounds very confused.
I also think that "feeling controlled" is a very big issue for most men. Mine told me the same thing. I have worked on this alot and even though it was very difficult I have stoppen many behaviour patterns that I once had and gave him the feeling of being controlled. It is a matter of backing off at the right time. Then waiting to see how he responded.
The same thing was important when it came to educating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Me - "It hurts that you have not rung me to tell me. I feel like you don't care about me. It would be nice if you had rung
me, even friends would do this for each other". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seahorse, I understand you completely, I would of felt the same, believe me. It does hurt. But you were telling your H what he should be doing. You were educating him and you were telling him what he should do. If he had wanted to do it, he would of done it. But he didn't. Sad I know, but he is a grown-up man and it is not up to you to tell him what to do. I don't want to sound harsch, honestly. This is what I too had to learn. I had to stop telling my H what to do.
He hated this!!! This was what he called "controll".
Try to think about this for your sake, please. Do you believe that OW tells him these kinda things??? Surely not and why?? Quit simple, she doesn't controll nor does she pressure. She is just pleasant and makes him feel needed and understood.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H - "This is what I'm talking about, this is why I left, You are too controlling". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think, what is your H telling you. What is it that makes him feel pressured and controlled?
Think about this the next time you call him. Maybe a : "Hi, I was just thinking about you and I thought I'd call ya to see how you are doing!" No accusions and no pressure and no more educating. Just be pleasant and just have a pleasant talk.
You might see changes in him once you start making changes. It is not up to you to change him.

Seahorse please don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to explain how it worked for us.
I did not tell my H anything until he started to ask, then I kept my answers short and precise.
But in your case, this is of coarse hard to do, mostly if he isn't at home. I understand that and I understand how confusing this must be for you.

I hope I am not off road with what I am trying to explain. I just think that a straight PLAN A with no educating and backing off will help abit better. Phoning up and having a pleasant, comfortable talk might make your H feel happier and might really get him thinking. He will notice by the tone of your voice if you are angry, believe me.
You must try to give him reasons that will make him think "positive" and "pleasant" about you.

He told you that he would not "just dump" OW. Why would he be thinking this? Well I think there is a simple answer to this.
He doesn't have to deal with problems and anything unpleasant when it comes to her. (this is "fantasy" land, I know but it seems that he is just seeing this that way right now.)

I can understand that you felt very "down" after the phonecall. You want this so badly and you wish that it would just "click" in his head. But I don't think this will happen that way.
If he is telling you that "you are controlling" then listen to what he is telling you. Back off and work on this.

Hey and we'll help you through this rough time until the 31st!!! Remember that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Try not to think anything "negetive" about what may come. Things usually come completely different from what we think. And usually not even half as bad as what we had imagined.

take good care of yourself and hugs
bb

Seahorse,
I read your post and then I read it again...and you know what? I got the biggest grin on my face.

I really don't think you see why...but here's what I read...

I read a post by a woman who faced unsurmountable pain and loss...who found that inside of her she has the strength to face and conquer such things that I bet a year ago you would have never thought you could have.

I read a post by someone who reflected long and hard about mistakes we all make in a marriage and sees them for what they are worth...and most importantly has come to a place that REGARDLESS of the outcome will never ever go back to that place and will NEVER settle for less for you...both by neglect on your part...or accepting neglect from others...

I also read a post by someone whose husband is willing to take council...and you being the wise woman that you are saw this as just as hard and draining as continuing on the path of seperation/divorce...you my friend are in control and in power...recovery is as difficult as is crisis...

some would have interperted his willingness as a sure sign of recovery..and immediately set themselves up for more heartache...

Seahorse if I give you any advice...it is take this time from now till the 31st to really look inwards and decided what YOU want....red-flags in your post to me are where you tell hubby..."that if you could meet all your (his) needs in the way you (he) want met...then would you (he) come home?".... poppycock ...we meet each other needs to the best of our ability...spouses that need their needs met by continuing disrepectful actions are not worth your time...don't settle for less....

And also you are not controlling by asking a "friend" to be accountable to you if they have promised to call...do not lovebust your response to that...but do not accept it either...tell him with care that it is through actions of politeness that we show care and that there is nothing controlling about asking someone who said they would come over...why they couldn't have called to tell you plans had changed..and that you are sorry he sees that as controlling but it really is basic respect and nothing more....babble back that someone who verbalizes concern for the otherwoman should be able to verbalize the same concern towards you...that you have feelings to...and leave it at that..it is a fact..not a lovebust...

You have 12 days to really think about what you want....12 days to really strengthen yourself to decide that will never go back to what you have conquered and changed...12 days to reflect how strong you have become and how you deserve to be treated well, while at the same time treating others well.....
You have faced your demons...he still denies responsibility for his actions....'you were controlling..he left"...gag me...
You have overcome much....you are blessed in all that you have gained...

I think you feel bad because of your progress just magnifies all of his babble that is still deeply rooted and rationalized....

Bask in these days of being free from his babble...
strengthen yourself so that as he comes to face himself you can be free of the anger and pain this has caused you...

His taking council with SH is fantastic news....
hold tight to all you have learned...don't give up your soul for a chance at him returning and dragging you down...
You have learned much...
peace to you
ARK

Hi BB and ark, read and re-read your posts. Mulled them over for a while as I usually do…

Before I start, I had a day of total indulgence. I drove to the beach and laid there for an hour. Watched the surfers in their tribute to the Bali victims, went to one of the most beautiful spots in the south high on a cliff and overlooked the green blue water below meeting golden sands while I ate my lunch.

Then I came home and lazed around reading the papers and magazines I bought myself. Run a bath, gave myself a facial and picked up the book I got from the library called “Boundaries in Marriage”, and low and behold it is about setting boundaries in a way that is not controlling. These kind of “co-incidences” have been happening a lot lately, I think God works in mysterious ways.

Enough of my rambling.

I agree BB in one respect – the way I approached him about not calling may not have been the best, and I need to learn a better one, however, I really feel that I had to tell him that what he did is not acceptable to me. I would not do this to anyone, why should I accept it because I want him back? I agree though, I need to find a way to not LB when I do it, and if I’ve done it to him, its possible I may do it to others, so I will add this lesson to my plan A.

I definitely have been following GC’s posts, they have helped a lot and your advice has helped me too. I appreciate you saying you will get me through till 31/10. I may have a few more vents between now and then as I think all this through. It almost seems like we’re at a significant stage in all this. It could go either way right now.

I think what you’ve suggested ark is a good idea. I can truly see that no matter how much I love this man and want him back, if he is not willing to work as hard at making me happy as much as I will at making him happy, then I will be setting myself up to be unhappy and neither of us will be happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

A chance at “recovery” scares me and excites me at the same time. I can see the potential here. There is an opportunity that presents itself at this time that if was taken up could make two people very happy. Unfortunately, that same opportunity could become a disaster and make two people miserable – that’s the scarey bit. I need him to participate, and I’m really not that sure he can do it, at least he hasn’t proven to me he can do it or wants to do it. I know this man loves me very much, if he didn’t he’d be gone with all his money and caring long ago, but he still comes back even if only to check that the safety net is still there. I know I know the safety net needs to go, this is also scarey, what if he can’t see past his stubbornness and fear to the potential I see? I know that I have to accept this, but its taking me time to push past my own fears to get to the point where I’m not the safety net and he falls. This time isn’t far off for me now, I’m tired of the games, I want something real, not this fantasy that I’ve been in.

I’ve thought about how to tell him what I need. I confirmed with him that by saying to him “you aren’t meeting my needs, you would need to meet them” meant nothing to him and just scares him. By saying that to him I had (in his mind) set him up for failure because he needs fairly specific instructions on how to do it. So the EN Questionnaire has come to mind. We filled it out together on D-day, maybe I should fill it in again and send it to him, send him a blank one and ask him to review it. Then again, the affair still continues and what’s the point while “she” is still in the picture. This is what you mean isn’t ark? If he can’t “dump” her, then why bother? “She” MUST go and he knows it. The reason I told him that he could “dump” her in the nicest possible way, was a suggestion from Steve. H had been using this as an excuse that he couldn’t just dump her now he started this relationship, well sure he can! Excuse me, but your married! And she knows your married!

Let her accept the consequences of going out with a married man, why should I feel bad about that? This is not the first married man she has been out with, if she hasn’t learnt her lesson then let her learn it again.

Don’t worry I will be thinking about this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I know if I accept anything less than what will make me happy then we are both set up for a big let down. I don’t want to go through this again. Also, if I accept anything less, do I stop my own growth for him if he decides not to take this opportunity to grow too? I’d be letting down God as well as myself, then all this pain I’ve been through would be wasted.

Thank you both for your kind words, its helped me through a painful day.

Hi Seahorse,

The best advice I can give you is to respect his wish not to contact him before he talks with SH (and WOW what a step in the right direction THAT is!)

He does not understand, nor does he probably want to yet, the principles of MB. And our trying to educate a foggy WS is a waste of time. As you say, the thought of him having to meet YOUR emotional needs scares him, while wanting YOU to meet his, without a flurry. Typical Aussie male, always see it from their stance and no-one else's. Also, needing specific instructions? Well that is what the Emotional Needs questionairre is all about, for BOTH of you, if you can get him to fill it out.

That dig he gave you about being controlling....that was not about you. It was about his GUILT for not calling, which you probably helped make him feel by calling HIM. I wonder how he would react next time if you did NOT call, and when he finally called you, you were blase about it..."Oh, you were supposed to come around today? It had slipped my mind!"

Anyway, I have lost your number and email, cos my computer crashed a month ago, so if you still have my addy, write to me and let me know it again.

You are doing so well.....it is just hard to see when you are the one living it. Have faith, Seahorse!

Love and light,

Jacky

Seahorse -- I do believe that the not calling is part of a typical passive aggressive behavior on the part of WHs. It's on purpose and it is intended to "test" you. I am glad you laid out a boundary here. Admittedly, maybe you tried to educate him too much in that one phone call, but when you're feeling like you feel right now (tired of this baloney), it's hard not to do that.

I didn't realize until this post that you knew for sure that OW was still in the picture. Your WH is being a cakeman and you aptly described the "safety net" scenario. I understand why you are afraid. I wake up each morning asking myself if this is all worth it when WH shows such little respect for me by continuing to have contact with OW. Then, the next day the WH (like yours) does something to reel me back in/to throw a crumb of care.

I do think that at some point you have to say enough is enough. I think the suggestion that you not call him until after he's had his appt. with SH is a good one. WH is still in a fog and it's eating you up like a cancer inside with doubt and fear.

Today is one of the days where I have a pretty negative view of WH that continue to have contact with both W and OW and are still incapable of understanding how cruel that is. So, I'm probably not the best person to give you advice. I can only tell you that YOU are doing the good and caring thing and WH just cannot see it. It's as if they have a disease that makes them incapable of understanding human kindness, pain and suffering, etc.

I am glad you had a good day of indulgence. The beach sounds wonderful. Some days it is important to remind ourselves that there is a whole world out there full of beautiful landscapes and kind and interesting people. We get so caught up in this A, WH, OW world and it skews our perspective.

Take care.

Hi Seahorse,

Thanks for your reply on my thread. Sounds like you are making some progress, good. But also hard. I am glad your H will talk to SH that in it self is a major breakthrough. Just hold on till then. Do more indulging. I wish I had been with you I love the ocean. No ocean here.

My H said the same dumb thing about dumping his OW. I wanted to strangle him and say "Yes I can see you wouldn't want to hurt her after all the time you've invested." See he kept telling me not to throw the fact that we had been together 24 yrs in his face. But he will throw their 1 yr in mine. OH WELL.

If your OW has gone after married men before she has learned her lesson. Relationships with no commitment problems on her side. I think anyone who goes after married men repeatedly is not looking for a solid relationship, but an ego boost, a relationship in which she has nothing to lose.

I feel this way with my H's OW. She has nothing to lose and he is losing everything. His choice, but I can't imagine that someday he won't see who is putting the most into their R and feel cheated.

Anyway, I will be thinking of you. I hope things go the way YOU want them too. Be good to yourself.

Sharon

Seahorse,

first off, I wanted to give you a huge cyberhug ((((Seahorse)))), and to apologize for not checking in earlier.

Blondeblossom has offered you excellent advice!!! We cannot "educate" our spouses, yes, we know the MB principles, but they don't. It's kinda like teaching calculus to a young child who does not even know how to add or subtract yet. Right?? I did the exact same thing, it does not work.

A few weeks ago when H was going to come home, I put on my teacher hat and he got scared. I then talked with Steve Harley and got a lesson from him, this was controlling behavior. I know that it doesn't seem like it to us, we are only trying to "help" themm, but it is.

In my opinion, you need to Plan A your butt off with ACTIONS, not words. You know his top EN's, that is good. Try your best to meet those, and don't even mention that you did.

For example, iron his shirt, but then do not say "I ironed your shirt, so you need to do this to meet my EN". Just do it, SH will tell you that you will feel like a doormat at times.

Let STeve get to your husband, let him be the one to do the "educating", man to man. My husband has not spoken to him yet, but I have heard that the Harleys can do wonders with WS's where other counselors fail. I think SH will be able to put everything in words that your husband can understand and relate to.

Plan A your @@s off right now. After the 31st, SH can then judge where you need to be. If you do go to Plan B, then your husband will remember and miss your Plan A, that's the plan, right??

go get yourself a couple of cotton balls, and a good bandaid, put them on your tongue, you will need it.

If your WH starts to treat you with disrespect, simply say "I am sorry you feel that way", then get yourself out of the situation. Don't retaliate back at all.

by the way, hows your doggie doing??

Hi all, thanks for your replies, I will reply later properly (I'm at work) but I just wanted to add something about the 'educating'. Actually H is fairly open to listening about this stuff in small amounts, so I don't consider it an LB. I've only just started talking about it and he asks questions and discusses it (ie he was happy discussing about meeting EN's). So yes, I am educating but I know when to stop. But I will take your comments on board, I hear what your saying and I know it a fine line I'm treading.

Jacky's right, the fact I rang made him feel guilty. I think what he is upset about was that when I asked him why he didn't call I had a tense voice and then went on the ask re the financial stuff. I can definitely see that that IS a LB and I should not have done it. Its a lesson I'm taking on board, when I'm hurt I tend to lash back and there's no reason to do this. I must control it.

Regarding what I will and won't accept if he does chose to work on our marriage:

I will not accept:

Dishonesty
Any form of contact with OW
Being second to work or anything else
Him not putting effort into working on this (including meeting needs and negotiating)
Disrespectful actions

I will accept:
His mistakes and occasional slip ups and disappointments as long as he is truly trying
That his job is important and I need to support him as best I can
That there are certain needs he has that I have to fulfil and regard as important (even if I don't it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )
That I can't control him and that he will be pissed if I try
That I still have a lot of work to do to reduce LB's and trying to take control and its not going to be easy

As I said, this can go either way guys. I refuse to get my hopes up about this, because its more likely I'm going to be disappointed. Only 11 days till he speaks to SH, so I've got to keep busy and keep thinking.

GC my dog is doing really well. He's had one dose of chemo and I'm waiting on the blood test to see if the white blood cell count is normal. His next chemo is on the 30th Oct. If you didn't know that he had this huge tumour, you wouldn't know anything's wrong, he's just so "normal" - he still gets spoilt though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Dont worry I don't intend to LB if I can help it, but if I do I will learn from the experience. The way i see it, things are pretty bad at the moment, so I just experiment with things. That's why I asked about the LB questionnaire and it worked. Its still plan A all the way.

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>