Utterly Confused: Not much we can do but keep the faith. When you talk about wanting to hold your W, you sound like me. Every night when I go to bed I wish my H was there..just to hold and snuggle against. It's hard to believe he doesn't miss that. Of course he might, but it doesn't seem likely. And, SF was a big part of our marriage, so for me 3 & 1/2 months of not being intimate with him is awful. Just another layer to our sadness about our spouses having left. Keep strong.

Well..today was strange for me. I work at the same company my husband does, but a different location. I've only worked there a month, and my husband has worked there 14 years. For e-mail, if you just type in the last name, the system automatically sends it to the person first alphabetically. Before I started working there my husband was the only one with our last name. Now I work there, my name..Kim, is alphabetically before his so I'm getting alot of his e-mail from people who don't know I work there and so are just typing in the last name.

Today I received a note from someone meant for my H. It was about a guy that had an employee that was supposed to attend a workshop that my husband was leading. The guy said that his employee was booked away for two days re an anniversary getaway with his wife and was it okay to miss the workshop or did the employee have to reschedule his time away. When I got the e-mail, I forwarded it to my H with a note saying 'awwh..let him reschedule the workshop. Sounds like a nice anniversary treat'. My H later sent me a carbon copy of his reply e-mail saying that 'My wife forwarded this note to me and on her advice I'm going to say that your employee can do the workshop another time so he can go on his anniversary trip'. So..I was surprised that a) my husband made reference to me in his note as his wife, b) that he carbon copied me on his reply, and c) that he used my little comment as a reference and made it a light hearted note. Very interesting.

Then tonight, my H is leaving for a weekend fishing trip that he goes on every year. The other guys all live in our town but my H lives about 30 minutes away now. So..the plan is usually that one guy who drives a van picks up the other guys. My H sent me an e-mail asking if it was okay for him to park his car in our driveway for the weekend so he could be picked up. It caught me off guard and I said okay, but afterwards wondered if I'd made a mistake as he really shouldn't have done that..he should have made arrangements to be picked up elsewhere or park at one of the other guy's houses. Anyway, too late as he was already on his way.

Tonight, my phone rings and it's my H telling me he's going to be late arriving for the pickup. I said 'okay..that's fine..did you call your friend to tell him?'. He said 'no, I'm calling you'. I said okay and hung up, wondering why did he call me instead of phoning his friend directly. I waited a while and then called the friend and said my H would be late. 10 minutes later my H called again to find out what had happened. I said I'd called and his friend would wait a while before coming to get him. My H then said he still had to go to the liquor store and get ice. I said 'you should call your friend directly now' and he said 'well..if he shows up you tell him I'll be there soon'. He ended up calling me one more time and I just think it's strange. It's like I'm playing the wife 'role' but my H doesn't live here anymore. I know I shouldn't have probably called the friend, but he is also a friend of mine and I was thinking about him and wanting to be considerate to him so he didn't rush to come here and pick H up.

Anyway, when my H arrived I just calmly said to him that it was interesting that he called me instead of his friend and he just flew off the handle and said 'Okay then..I won't call next time!' He then got all ticked off and was miserable. Then he went to our kitchen and just helped himself to a specific saucepan he wanted to cook a meal in on the weekend and in his ticked off mood ended up knocking over a glass saucepan and it broke all over the kitchen floor. Needless to say it was not a very pleasant scene. I just cleaned some of the glass up and my H did too and then he just left and went outside and sat in his car to wait to be picked up. Didn't say anything. Just acted like a spoilt kid. I felt terrible and I think it's totally unfair that this happened and I end up being the one feeling bad. It's like my H can't separate from this life and so is living partly in this life and partly in his independent life. It's very frustrating and I'm wondering if I should ask him to meet next week to discuss this type of stuff. What does anyone think?

Addition to my last post...

I've been thinking about what happened last night and I think my H is taking advantage of me even if he doesn't realize it. I've been far too easy going in the respect that I've let him keep most of his stuff here still and have made it 'easy' for him. Even the band stuff that is taking up our whole basement that belongs to other people...drum set, speakers, keyboards..etc.. is still here as it's convenient for them to leave it here too, rather than look for somewhere else.

Right now my H comes and gets stuff when he needs it. Last night he became scowling and made it seem like I'm the unreasonable one. It's making me feel that I'm being 'used' in a way when if you make the decision to leave your W then you should expect a bit of inconvenience, don't you think?

A friend of mine told me last night that I've made it very easy for him so far and I guess I have.

Look forward to comments on my two posts..thanks alot.

Kimmy,

You know, the ups and downs drive me crazy. Last Saturday and Monday we had horrible fights. Since Wednesday our talks have been quite pleasant. In fact, on both ocassions she was soliciting my advice regarding decisions she has to make about herself. Yesterday, she called me to say that I can pick up our S two days before thanksgiving instead of the day before because he gets out of school on Tuesday. I thought that was nice. I told my son I was going to have my physical exam next week with our doctor and she heard my son make some comments about it, so she came on the phone to ask me if I was OK and why was I going to the dr? I continued to speak to my son and later she asked him for the phone to ask me what exams I was going to have done at the lab. In short, why does she seem to care how I am if the last few weeks I have been her Public Enemy #1?

So, you see, I don't know what it all means. Are we reading too much into our spouses' words and actions? I really don't know. It seems to me you are still filling some of his needs and he is taking advantage of that. Is that good or bad, I don't know? To me, like my name implies, uncertainty is the rule. I wish I could have a crystal ball not only to see the future but also to see what is really inside her mind and heart.

I assume you've only been on plan A for 3 1/2 months; it is possible that is not enough time. Be patient, continue on Plan A but start thinking about Plan B.

Is it possible to do Plan A and at the same time keep him guessing what you are up to? This is a question I pose to all readers of this post.

Keep the faith. I wish I could offer more advice.

Utterly Confused: Yes, I've been meeting his needs and he's taking advantage I think. I have been working on Plan A for a few months, yes..and I know these things take time, but after Friday night's fiasco, I just wonder if it's worth it. This morning I noticed my hair is coming out in large amounts and so obviously I'm stressed. I feel that it's time to tell my H to get the rest of his stuff and to complete the paperwork on the separation he keeps telling me he wants.

I've been in and out of the house alot today and every time I drive home and see his car I'm mad that I let him park here.

I have tried to be a bit mysterious and have him wonder about me a bit and he's not interested at all. I even got a rose from work and he would have seen it displayed and nothing - if he saw it he didn't care. The kids say he never asks about me when he's with them and I believe he has closed his heart down totally to me and so nothing is allowed to break into it.

I think it's unhealthy for me to continue making it easy and convenient for him as much as I don't want the separation and him to take his stuff. I've got to take care of myself.

Tell me..as a man..how is it possible to be with someone for 15 & 1/2 years..married 14, and tell your wife all those years she's the one for you and during lovemaking say you couldn't live without her, and then one day you leave, say you don't love her anymore and have no feelings? How can that be done? How can men close down so tightly? I've tried so much and I'm honestly at the point where it seems ridiculous to carry on this way..being nice and considerate and caring and continuing to love him and get nothing back. Am I just a sucker for punishment? Why would I continue to want someone who is treating me like this. Sometimes Plan A makes no sense. I feel like any spark I had in me is gone and I want to get it back.

A friend phoned me today and said that probably when my H sees me dating he'll realize what he's lost and might be interested. Well..I'm sorry, but I don't want my husband to be interested because I'm with someone else. I want my H to be interested just because of me!

I had another man friend tell me today he wishes he had someone love him even half as much as I love my H. All these men seeing it and not my H.

I've been working on a letter to give my H tomorrow night when he comes to get the car and it's basically telling him my feelings but at the same time telling him I can't live like this anymore as emotionally I know I have to accept his decision and I've realized I can't make him love me. I also told him that I'm open to him but can no longer live under these circumstances of living half in a marriage and half in a separation, and I'm emotionally spent. I've told him how much I love him and am here for him but I've accepted what he feels and wants and so it's time for me to agree to what he wants so I can try to move on and get some of my spark back.

I hope it's a good idea. He doesn't want to talk to me so I'm working hard on the letter to make sure it's right and then I'll give it to him. I did tell him that I'm here if he wants me but I can't live surrounded by his stuff anymore - it's too hard.

Any comments?

A few comments...

Before you go on Plan B and give him the letter, you need to calm yourself down a little. I have regrettably acted on impulse MANY times the last 7 months and have hurt the possibility of a reconciliation quite a bit. You need to take the equivalent of a deep breath and wait a few days before you embark on Plan B. I know you are hurting and you are very upset. It is part of the rollercoaster ride. Ask your C about Plan B. Do you have a friend who knows what you are doing? Can you confide in her? The bottom line is that you don't want to make any radical decisions until you really are ready and thought it through. If my W and I don't end up together, I know I will blame myself for not doing that.

You ask me as a man how can your H do what he did to you. My answer is, it has nothing to do with being a man or a woman. My W did exactly the same thing. Two years into the M she wrote to me that she could never picture ever leaving me, that she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me. Last year she told a good friend of ours that she could never leave me because I was like a drug to her. Can you imagine? I think you can. About three weeks ago I wrote to my W that how can a person be happy if in the process of obtaining that happiness you hurt your spouse, your children, your family and friends. I truly believe that.

Think about yourself first. My advise is NOT to date anybody and not get involved in another relationship. You have to be honest with yourself and if you date, do it for yourself, not because you may be attracting him. Besides, God wants you to do all you can in saving the M. One thing that keeps me going is knowing that when I stand at the pearly gates and I am asked what I did in the M, I can say, "yes, at first I screwed up because I did not meet my W's needs but then I tried ALL I could to save the M." I really do think that is what God wants us to do. Don't you think there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Don't you think there is a reward if we do as he would ask us to do? I don't mean to turn all religous on you but He has made wonders in my life the last three months. He knows our pain and if we ask Him, He will comfort and console us.

Finally, just because you think he does not notice your changes does not mean that's true. I don't want to give you false hopes but maybe he does notice. Maybe his pride does not allow him to let you know he does. Wait a few days, see how you feel, talk to your C and friends and then make the decision. Be patient.

Allow me to send you {{{ }}}. You are not alone.

Utterly confused: I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way with my question about how my H could say stuff to me and then leave me, I just meant as a man, from your perspective, how can my H do it? Sorry if I offended you at all.

My letter isn't really a Plan B letter. It's just a letter telling him I can't live any more surrounded by all of his stuff and him just coming and getting stuff at his convenience, etc. Also, all our financial stuff is being done by me as usual, as our paycheques are still going into the same account. He just withdraws what he wants, when he wants. It's just the whole thing of not really separating, but him saying he wants to and has no interest in me. I'm just telling him in the letter that I love him and are open to him, and choose our marriage. But it also says that it's difficult for me to live like this and I think it's time for this next step.

If I don't do this I feel like he'll be content to live like this for months, while he continues to get more and more settled without me. I've know for months that it's best to have a legal separation for myself and the kids and my H is the one who keeps initiating it and telling me it's what he wants but he doesn't do anything. I'm just feeling in limbo and I know I don't want to carry on like this. It's killing me inside being caught 'in between'.

It's really been 9 months of emotional turmoil for me as his EA came to light in February and so that's why I'm so emotional tired and confused.

I do believe in the pot at the end of the rainbow, but I wonder if my emotional anguish is the way to get there. I do have faith in God and pray every day. I've asked for guidance and comfort and strength and I still wonder why this is happening when I've tried so hard to be a kind, caring Christian person. I'm hoping God is putting us through this so we come out stronger on the other side. That's the only plan I can cling to.

I do have close friends who know every thought I have and they have been supporting and listening to me for months. But I must say that even those who are the biggest supporters of my H have been saying that I should make this move to protect myself and my children. I've been the one who's been stalling. They see how hard it is to live caught like this. Living like you're still married except your H has gone.

I do not want to date yet, that's for sure. I do see men looking at me, but make it a point to not show interest. I am committed to my H right now and no matter how lonely I feel, that hasn't changed.

You said you wrote a letter to your W. Was it similar to what I'm writing, or something different? My letter is definitely not confrontational...just stating facts about my love for him, and how I'm feeling right now, and then the parts about the separation and his belongings. It also says that I still love him but respect his choice to choose not to be with me or love me and so I shall do what he asks..do the separation thing.

Thanks for your input. I am so confused and feel very forlorn tonight. I will think about whether or not the letter is a good idea as you suggest. I have until tomorrow night to decide. I can always keep it and give it to him later I suppose. It just seems that that will prolong this limbo even longer and it is me who is suffering.

You don't have to apologize. I did not take any offense to your question. Maybe I was not clear. The point I was trying to make is that something must make our spouses do that and we don't know exactly what it is. It makes no difference if the spouse is male or female. Perhaps the answer lies with the emotional needs we did not meet. I truly don't know.

I misunderstood the intention of your letter. Now it is more clear. You say you see your H quite frequently. Why don't you wait? Create a new post and see what other people think. Personally, I would wait a few days before taking any action because I wouldn't want to jump and make a decision based on what I am feeling at the moment. If the urge to send the letter persists after a few days then do so. You don't have until tomorrow night to decide. Tomorrow night will not be the last time you see him. This is just my opinion.

Yes, I did send an e-mail to my W, in fact two. I don't think it was a good idea. I know she read them yesterday but she did not reply nor mentioned it to me during our phone conversation. Basically, one letter was recommending the MB web site and the other a link to an article pertaining to affairs. The reasons why the e-mails were not a good idea were because they dealt with our R and the A and the OM. Even though I told her she was free to choose, I also told her why it was a good idea to work on the M and not continue with the A. I told her that I was giving her this advice because I love her and care about her and asked her to stop the A even if we don't stay married. I am sure the e-mails were love busters. But what can I do; they are sent already and I sent them over two weeks ago while I was still full of anger. They were a different way of pleading.

If you are going to write the letter, make sure you don't accuse him of anything. Don't use "you" statements but rather "I feel..." statements. Make sure you don't have any LB in it. Draw boundaries; you have the right to do that. Make sure they are realistic. I am still struggling knowing when boundaries cross the line of Plan A.
I am making it a point to consult my C before I take any actions because I've already committed enough mistakes listening to my family (to whom I am very thankful) and listening to my emotions.

And yes, we will be stronger after we come out of this. And yes, we will come out of this with or without our spouses (although the best would be with our spouses). Your emotional anguish is not designed to get to that pot of gold, but any suffering on this earth has to have a reward. Why else would Jesus have suffered for us? IMO, God is not putting us through this, God is using this situation to allow us to become stronger with His help; to allow us to grow in Him, to allow us to get to that pot of gold. We must take this opportunity to get closer to Him.

Have faith.

btw... have you read Love Must Be Tough by Dr. Dobson? I highly recommend it.

<small>[ October 26, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

Thanks for your reply. I see my H about 4 times a week only because we have kids and so he has them about 3 times a week, and then we are both at my son's hockey games. So..yes..I see him alot, which is actually harder than not seeing him as this way it's just a constant reminder of him not choosing to live with me.

I'm not really making a decision to write a letter based on how I'm currently feeling. I've been struggling with this separation agreement/his belongings situation for a few weeks now and it's really starting to get to me. I have been working on the letter and are making sure it only talks about the feelings as mine, etc., and even though on one hand I don't want to give it to him yet, on the other hand I think I NEED to do it to get a grip on what's happening.

Whenever I try to talk to him he just gets scowling and miserable and I just think I've had enough. I almost think it's better to stand up for myself now. The fact that I'm feeling taken advantage of by my own H because of my good nature is not good.

Yes..I don't have to give him the letter tonight. He will pick up the kids Tuesday and again Wednesday, so there are other opportunities.

I guess I could open a new thread..thanks for your idea..but I'm not sure if it will just add to my confusion... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope you don't take my advice to open a new thread as not trying to help you. What I am thinking is that with a fresh new thread, perhaps you can get more people involved who can give you advice.

I know the advice can be confusing because you will have conflicting views. However, sometimes they help us to see things from a different angles and that helps. I still recommend talking to your C about this letter before giving it to your H.

Be well.

Hi. I appreciate any input, and yes, sometimes there are many different answers but it still helps just to read from people experiencing what I'm experiencing. I think I've becomed addicted to this site. It helps me get through alot.

I was out all day with the kids, doing shopping, etc and now we're home there was a message from one of the guys who has his instruments in our basement asking if he could come and get them. Now..as much as I wanted this stuff out, now it's actually starting to go and it's upset me quite a bit. It's like it's all starting to change. I know it's silly to think this, and of course the guy wants his guitars and amplifiers..it's just my very fragile mind losing it a little.

My H comes back tonight from that fishing trip and I'm for sure not going to give him the letter yet. I need to work on it more. I'm going to try to not speak to him much tonight. I would like to ask him how his trip was but I really don't care right now. And anyway, when he goes back to his house I'm sure the lady he lives with will ask anyway.

I'm getting fed up as you can tell. I read alot of posts this morning and alot of them say to stand up for yourself, even in Plan A, and then alot of other say just to keep 'not rocking' the boat and be sweet and caring. I just don't know. I guess I'm just going to be confused for a while.

I know Plan A is still probably best for me, but I'm like the others that post and say how can their spouse even notice changes when they're hardly around. And I just paid the bills and as I'm doing it I'm thinking how easy it is for my H as he doesn't have any of this stuff. He just pays his rent once a month and life goes on.

Plus, other stuff he does really messes up my mind. He's going on an overnight work trip next weekend with other people from his work and some women will be there as well. One of them works on my floor (how lucky am I ..her AND the lady he lives with work on my floor. I can never escape this situation) and I've never met this lady yet as I've only been there 3 & 1/2 weeks. When my H told me I asked what she looked like in case I'd ever met her. Most people would say something like ..uh..about 30, blond hair... but no, not my H. He says "she has delicate white skin that looks like it's never seen the sun". So..it's just becoming too much for my brain to take. Why does he have to respond like that. I'm very frustrated with him and wonder at times like this if I'm just better off without him.

Do you know what 'going dark' is? I've read the Divorce Busters and Divorce Remedy books that I think they're from, but I don't seem to recall that. Is it kind of like Plan B, but instead of totally shutting yourself off from them and do a letter, have no contact etc., is it just acting disinterested? I'm wondering if that would be better for me. I have to see him re our kids, but perhaps just having no interest is best. Do you know?

Well..I really messed up today. My last post was about showing no interest or possibly going dark (if someone could respond and tell me a bit about that) and what do I do today? ..I call my H's cellphone and leave a message that I miss him. I couldn't help myself - the feeling just took me over. I just can't seem to get control. I'm so frustrated with myself.

Kimmy,

dont be hard on yourself you are going through a roller coaster of a time. We have all been there, done that so dont fret...believe me there is nothing I havent done that I havent second guessed. I dont have much time tonight but I just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you and praying for you. I think the letter is a good idea. I will writed more when I get a bit more time...hang kimmy

ayslyne

Ayslyne: Thanks for your note. Yes, please reply when you get more time. Do you know what 'going dark' is? No one is answering my posts so I can figure that out.

My letter to my H basically outlines my feelings (made sure it's all in the first person so no 'accusatory' language)..ie..choose him/our marriage, but realize I must accept his decision etc, but it also says that I know I must have no contact with him (unless a kid thing) in order for myself to move on.

Then at the end it says that I do not want this, would love it to be different, but understand it's his choice and I must accept it and therefore can he bring me the separation agreement asap, etc.

How does that sound? Any input is appreciated.

However, if 'going dark' is kind of like what I'm saying in my letter, perhaps a letter isn't needed..I just try not to see him? The only problem with that is that I'm not asking for him to follow through with the separation agreement he keeps insisting he wants. But...perhaps going dark would 'work' and I could delay the separation agreement bit. What do you think?

Kimmy, I hope you are doing better. I've had a couple of rough days myself. I will post on that later. I haven't found what 'going dark' means.

We are not perfect, so don't beat yourself up. We slip. I had a minor slip last night. I think the overall effect is what we are after. We need to let them know that it is safe to return to us. I am very hard on myself when I slip but other people in the boards tell me the same thing I told you. You just have to make sure you don't do it too often. If you have the urge to tell him how you feel, like I do with my wife, turn the TV on, read something, go for a walk, read the message boards, distract yourself.

Are you seeing a therapist? If so, is he/she aware of your Plan A? Have you discussed the letter?

I have to tell you I told my W that I respect her decision to divorce me and asked her to respect my values and beliefs regarding divorce. I told her I was not going to stop her from proceeding but that I was not going to make it my priority. I told her I love her and that no one else could have given what she's given me the last 10 yrs. I have a visit with my C tomorrow and will discuss this with him.

Be well, I am including you and your family in my prayers.

Yes, I have seen a therapist. Finished my sessions (allowed number of visits to be covered under insurance). She was okay, but I know that going to therapy again will only mean talking about my feelings, etc., and to be honest, I talk to three really close supportive friends almost every day, and I consider them my therapist. They listen and occasionally offer advice, so I'm fine with this right now. Plus I have other friends who check in with me often.

I haven't slipped with my H for a while. I never got a response back from my message, which of course I didn't expect, but of course could hope for, and tonight he came to pick up the kids after work to take them for dinner, and then I'll see them at hockey practice in an hour. I shed a few tears last night when I went to bed as I got into bed and thought how tired I was of getting into my bed alone, and then I wondered why my H thought when he heard my message, and that just got the tears going.

But..today I feel better and so that's good. I still have the letter ready but don't feel the need to give it to him right away. I think it's been good writing and re-writing as it gets alot of thoughts out, but still I am caught as to what to do about the separation agreement. I wish I knew if he was frantically working on it every night, or if he's just put it off because he's lazy or is stalling.

When I was lying in bed last night thinking I realized that I don't want the separation agreement because right now I have a piece of him with me here. He has alot of belongings here still, and of course all our financial stuff is the same, so it's like the only thing missing is my H. I realized that by not wanting the agreement it's because then whatever piece of him is left here with me will go, even though I know that I don't really have him here anyway.

My Mom told me last night that I should stop being the victim! I told her that I wasn't playing the victim...I was just devastated and did she think I liked feeling like this. She said my H isn't worth it and I said no, this H isn't worth it..she's right. BUT...the H I lived with for 14 years IS worth is, and my problem is I'm having trouble separating the two. If only it was as easy as everything thinks it should be.

You do what you have to do to save the M, but what you have to make sure is that you don't lose your dignity and that you don't do anything that goes against your beliefs and values. Do you feel like a victim? If so, what makes you feel that way? Are you doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable?

I know exactly what you mean by crying in your empty bed. Today I told my W she has no idea how her EA has ripped my heart and what I have been feeling all this time (I know I shouldn't LB). Her reply was "I am sorry, I never meant to hurt you." She has told me this several times. They have no idea, so once again, I believe in this "fog" everyone talks about.

But like I read on another post neither of us can bring our S back from that fog. This is very frustrating because we like to be able to do this. They have to come out of it by themselves, all we can do is provide a safe place for them to return.

Stay strong, you seem to be doing a lot better than I. You seem to have more discipline and seem to be stronger. You may not feel that way because you are not seeing any results, but I can see it. Keep it up!