Hello -

I am starting this thread to gather opinion on the issue of Autonomy in Marriage. Recently, I contacted a friend of my H who I believe has exercised influence over my H, in the hopes that this person could help support the healing of our marriage.

I expressed the desire for transparency in our R in order to rebuild the trust which has been shattered, and expressed frustration at my H's determination to maintain his "right to privacy". I expressed the view that as married people, we should share joint finances and expressed my frustration that my H continues to maintain personal control over the bulk of his income.

I received the view back, to quote, "that your desire and expectation of transparency and mutuality in marriage is extreme, unrealistic and quite frankly, undesirable."

This person went on to present his/her own view that privacy within a marriage is fundamental and protects and supports one's individuality. That marriage is NOT about transparency and an "absence of distance, separateness, autonomy." That if you do not nurture one another's individuality you will have "nothing of substance to offer one another in matrimony." This person goes on to assert that privacy protects the "necessary freedom and autonomy of each party". That one has to have, nurture and be oneself in order to then give it freely. "If autonomy is not cultivated and honoured, it cannot then be selflessly given."

I would appreciate the really heavyweight responses to this issue. This person carries a lot of weight in my H's eyes, and I do not intend to respond to this person until I have thought out my response in detail.

This person has failed in his/her own relationships and when I do respond, I will respectfully suggest that these strongly-held convictions have contributed to his/her inability to engage in the discipline of a truly intimate relationship.

But I would appreciate others ideas on the issues of joint vs autonomous finances, personal privacy, and the issue of being autonomous within a committed, life-long relationship. I think we all know what we feel about private emotional relationships outside of marriage, so I won't ask for feedback on that topic, unless you specifically feel its relevant.

I would like to state that I have no desire to suppress my H's individuality, indeed it is something I love and cherish. I have no quarrel with him retaining his own bank account or having his own friends. I am seeking a relationship of equality, equity, integrity and mutual respect and I am looking for the tools and principles which nurture that kind of relationship.

It seems to me that this person finds the idea of giving up control over his/her personal privacy as threatening to his/her own personal identity. And part of me says "with friends like this, who needs enemies?"

Any input on these ideas is welcome - I'll bet all of you out there have some strong ideas on this - come on, lets hear them!

Thanks!
LIR

<small>[ October 20, 2002, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

^^bump^^

My short answer is that ever since my H and I implemented the radical honesty and no-privacy our marriage is more open and we are freer to be ourselves then ever before... it is liberating.

After work I'll be back with the longer response.

I would suggest a book calld 'Struggles with Intimacy'.

I think a person who is afraid to share who they really are with the most important person in their life is not really automous. That person is just lonely.

You can decide to openly share your feelings, past, present, future desires, and checking account with your spouse without becoming a puppet of that person. To equate sharing with losing your automony is to show how emotionally stunted a person you really are.

The ability to share with others without fear of losing yourself is to really mature as a person. Only people who have been hurt in the past fear they must keep a part of themselves forever locked away from another person. This is not autonomy, this being a slave to a past hurt.

April

Lady in Red,

My short answer to your H's friend is "horse puckey".

My longer answer will be a bit chaotic as I really do have work to accomplish today.

Your H's friend said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This person went on to present his/her own view that privacy within a marriage is fundamental and protects and supports one's individuality. That marriage is NOT about transparency and an "absence of distance, separateness, autonomy." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Transparency is not the same as individuality. As for separteness and autonomy, if those are important to an individual they should be divorced. A well defined person will not lose their personality, their choices and their since of uniqueness in a sharing open relationship. Indeed, the best marriages celebrate the differences and the idosyncrasies of the individual. Of course the only way this can happen if both partners are open to one another.

Ever been around a couple married for 40 or 50 years. They often kid, joke, and poke fun at the others foibles, but it is done with love and deep respect. How does this happen, they KNOW each other intimately and they have SHARED a life together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That if you do not nurture one another's individuality you will have "nothing of substance to offer one another in matrimony." This person goes on to assert that privacy protects the "necessary freedom and autonomy of each party". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello, you don't get married to have "necessary freedom and autonomy". Read the vows again and the biblical injunctions about marriage. Man and Wife become one. But it is a voluntary merging, and what makes it unique is that each retains who they are and their souls so that they can balance and help their spouse out. This guy has no clue what marriage means and clearly sleep walked through his own marriage if indeed he is married.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That one has to have, nurture and be oneself in order to then give it freely. "If autonomy is not cultivated and honoured, it cannot then be selflessly given."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get this guy a dictionary. Autonomy is not related to being oneself and is clearly in contradiction to "give it freely" whatever that means. It is the responsibility of the spouse to "nuture" their partner and it is properly done with the recognition that each of us is unique. With autonomy there is NOTHING to give, because ANY relationship requires giving and taking and that cannot be done with autonomy.

These boys need some lessons in what marriage means and a better dictionary. And I say this as a guy.

Perhaps, I will be able to come back and say this more adroitly, but those are my ideas on the subject.

God Bless,

JL

LIR:

My short answer is even shorter than JL's!!

Get that Bass Turd on the horn and tell him I said "Balderdash!" (well, it IS shorter!)

Have you read "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. His chapters on "differentiation" are very interesting. Truly, individuals aren't subjugated by sharing their individuality with their M partner. They're nurtured and better able 2 grow 2gether. Your H's friend is an intellectual twit.

Everyone has a right to privacy...however, they do NOT have a right to a hidden life. In a marriage, the obligations are joint, so should be the resources for meeting those obligations. (I am assuming this is mainly $$ we are speaking of.)

It is a foolish idea that one spouse shouldn't know about the income, spending of the other. This leads to terrible problems is anything happens to the one who is in complete control, as the couple's life...not just one...is built on what they can bring into the joint "bank account".

"necessary freedom and autonomy of each party".

Is it necessary for the freedom of one to have complete control? This is NOT necessary in money matters. jmho This wouldn't be a partnership, it would be a dictatorship.

If we are talking about sharing what a spouse is doing, being accountable for their actions...I don't believe a spouse must tell every little thing they do...but...they must tell every little thing they do that impacts the marriage or their spouse.

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: just a wifey 2002 ]</small>

Lady in Red,

Privacy and secrecy are about fear, control, and accountability. Also, according to David Schnarch ("Passionate Marriage" and "Constructing the Sexual Crucible"), privacy and secrecy are barriers to achieving intimacy.

Being fearful about how your spouse might react may prevent you from revealing things you've done, or worse, your true inner thoughts. You try to control your spouse's reaction by hiding they "real" you. In other words, you want to make choices, take actions, or maybe even have feelings and thoughts but not want to face the consequences of those deeds, or thoughts.

It's not control over yourself that you relinquish when you become more open, it's control over the spouse who doesn't have the information they need to choose their own life.

The Harley's talk about this in great detail. If you don't truly "know" your spouse, how will you ever know if you're succeeding, or failing at your marriage. Or, if you're the one hiding yourself, how will you ever know that your spouse truly loves you and not the facade that you have created?

If you want to pursue this question further, I think Schnarch is the way to go. He addresses in great detail why someone would be threatened by "openness" and why they would put forth exactly the justification your friend has proposed.

As 2long mentioned, Schnarch explains this with the concept of differentiation. At low levels of differentiation a person would take a large part of their self worth from what others thought of them (most importantly, their spouse)- a reflected sense of self. It would be very important for people to think the best things possible, hence the secrecy and the release of only that information that puts out the reflected image they want to see.

At higher levels of differentiation, Schnarch claims that people have a stronger internal view of themselves (solid self) and do not require as much reflected self. At this level they can tolerate negative views from the outside and still "hold onto" their own image of themselves.

Schnarch is very non-judgemental in his insistence that we don't have much choice about our level of differentiation when we enter adulthood - it depends mostly on the level of our parents and the functioning of our family-of-origin. Most of us succeed in increasing our differentiation throughout our lives. Schnarch thinks that marriage is the perfect "crucible" for forcing us to increase our level of differentiation, and with knowledge of the process we might do even better. The rewards (he claims) are greater intimacy with your partner.

Privacy and secrecy are barriers that prevent you from getting close. Revealing, and then holding onto yourself throughout the painful repercussions that ensue is a way of increasing your level of differentiation, and paradoxically increasing your solid sense of self- you become more certain of who you are as an individual.
This is counter to what your "friend" seems to think.

Whew... that was the longer version- I hope I summarized it coherently. I'm really hoping Zorweb checks back in - her story will reinforce how openness makes you stronger, not weaker.

Jeffers

Hey LIR,

I hope you are doing better. As usual, I will devote the better half on my response to something other than the answer to your question and I will leave others to answer your question. What I think is much more important to your situation has nothing to do with the answer to your questions, but the dynamics of the entire situation.

With that said, I believe it really does not matter whether or not your H or your H's friend is wrong or right in their philisophical views. People generally do not change their philisophical views unless God changes them, and that is rare. I do not feel your H will change his view on this even if you can convince him that he is wrong. His opinion on marriages is based upon an entire lifetime of environmental influences and some character issues as well.

This attitude may seem like a loosers mentality because in essence it means that you do not try to affect change in others. In reality, it is not. I feel we still must express what our needs are of others and try to train others to fill our most important needs. Occassional, however, such as in this case, certain needs are not being filled because of certain philisophical differences. When we reach these impasses with our spouses, I feel that it is decision making time. We must realize that their are certain needs that our spouses will not be able to fill for the aforementioned reason. So when this impass occurs our choices are the following:

1) Learn to live without the particular need
2) Find someone else to fill that need

If you notice, I did not mention what some would consider a third alternative and that is to try to continue to reason with your spouse, try to talk to spouses friends or family to convince him to change, try for years and years to get someone to be someone that their not. Even if one was successful in affecting change, it would be short lived. Soon the person would eventual fall back to their old self. This is not a decision, but a lack of decision.

If you truly love your H you would choose option #1. True Agape type Love is all about sacrifices and acceptance of people for who they are. It is a concious decision to sacrifice your needs for another. The opposite of Love is not Hate but selfishness. So the decision you have before you is not to continue to try to change your husband into something he is not, but whether or not you can live without the needs he is unable to fill because of his philisophical view of marriage. When you make this decision, be sure that you understand all of the needs that will continue to be left unfullfilled.

I feel you are attempting to affect change on your H by affecting change on his friend. If you can't affect change on your H directly, what makes you think that you are going to change this girl's vision of a marriage which will in turn affect change on your H.

I think you already know the answer to the question you asked. The answers is so obvious it can be summed up in one biblical and even legal principal "the two shall be one flesh". Your H does not live by this principal regardless of what he may tell you. A marriage has no room for individuality. The concept of marriage is singularity both legally and biblically.

It is amazing how disfunction can be so blinding and contagious.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: new_dreamland ]</small>

Lady,
Frankly this friend's views are a little scary & before I read about his lack of success in relationships, my intial thought was that I assumed he would be difficult at best, person to have a lasting relationship with. DAA! You have that point down!! If your H is basing his perspectives and ideas of how to manage a good marital relationship on this guys views & if your H refuses to listen to your logic compared to this guys -- I am very sorry to say, you have a major problem. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
If it were me, I would not waste my time in trying to reason with the friend. You have enough evidence to know this guy may think he has it all figured out, but he does not!! ANd it seems you have more than enough to handle with trying to reason with your H, let alone two!!
Your H does not have to justify anything to this friend -- your H has a relationship with you! You & he are the ones that need to try & work this out - if there is to be a third party involved, it needs to be a Qualified person, like a counselor! Or a credible sourse - like MBers!
IMHO, what that guy described may be true if it were two people that were dating -- You guys are married! To be like "one" ... You can be your "own" person w/o having secrets and w/o being totally selfish, financially and otherwise! I see it as seperate issues!
I suppose just about any "slant" could be supported by an author of a book or whatever, but I would be curious, what source of authority this friend may use -or is this his own refined philospy or secret to happiness in life -... by himself?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> You have legitamate concerns, rights, wishes ... If your H truely wants to work on a "marital" relationship, I would emphasize that he needs to work with you -- not his friend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
It is not a fair if they like "team-up" against you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Best of Luck!

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Hello -

I received the view back, to quote, "that your desire and expectation of transparency and mutuality in marriage is extreme, unrealistic and quite frankly, undesirable."

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, jmho i think you have bigger problems if the one person your husband listens to is someone who has failed at personal relationships, if you read, "power of a praying wife" one of the things to pray for is someone influential your H's life who fears God and know the important of marriage and family.
Anyway, another thing, i hope you are a christian because if you read Genesis 2 verse 24-25 it says H and W becomes one flesh and they were both naked and not ashamed. i take this to mean more than just physical, it includes emotional, spiritual, financialy and in psychosocial aspects of your lifes. To achieve that oneness you have to strive to be able to stand naked with each other and not be ashamed, this will achieve amazing intimacy because noone is hiding anything, there is no need to hide anything.
hope this helps you, i believe people who want to have privacy and secretes should not be married because these facilitates disharmony in a marriage in the long run.
hW.

Lady,
As I was reviewing this thread more closely I noticed one respondent referred to your H's friend as a female. Then I noticed you were careful in your original post to be gender neutral. He/her kind of thing.

I am curious, is this friend a female?

And if so, are you perhaps a little suspicous about exactly what kind of relationship they have?

Are you currently living apart?

Hope you are hangin in?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

I believe that something has happened within the last week that has LIR wanting to quit working on the marriage and get out, but I don't know exactly what is going on. I worry about her. I encourage everyone to pray for her family, especially for LIR.

SS

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I am not really OK - started anti-D's yesterday - told H, since I am committed to being honest - H is distant, both angry and sad - feels like the gulf between us is widening and I feel like I am waiting for the axe to fall. Last night he stormed out again - said it was me who couldn't move on because I keep trawling up old history (his EA's - first time I have mentioned them - in response to his attempt to talk about this) - he sat on the sofa and said "What are we going to do about this - I can't go on living in this situation." I said I didn't have any ideas. He just wants me to "fix it" so it is all OK for him, without ever talking to me or doing anything to rebuild my trust, or making committments to me. He wants me to forgive and forget. Told him my C and all books I had read say that is impossible without talking it through and that is what he is refusing to do with me.

After he stormed out, OS came downstairs - he had heard everything, so I felt it was time to explain - OS cried (he is almost 10) - maybe later, I will go into more detail about how I presented it to him - told him Daddy and I loved him and his B very much, that we could still reconcile if we could talk about this, that I loved and forgave Daddy, but Daddy did not believe me - Daddy wants to go on without saying "sorry and I won't do it again". My heart is breaking for my son.

H came back at 1am - cleaned up the kitchen and came to bed - I was convinced he would leave last night, still feel that this is what he is getting ready for.

The friend in question is not the older woman friend, although I am sure that she would agree with these sentiments to a certain extent. The friend is a man, who seems to have become a type of counselor to my H - he is a religious person, and not married - failed marriage - he is the person who set my H up with a private e-mail account. I never blamed him for this, and have always thought that he was helping by encouraging my H into counselling - when I got his msg back to me, I suddenly felt such despair - this "friend" has been actively hampering our recovery, I believe, if he has been giving my H these ideas. And I don't see any hope any more - hence the despair.

I can't say any more. You are all so kind - thanks.

LIR

Oops, I had the wrong take on who was giving this advice. What about this man says he is "religious" other than his claiming to be so? If his advice reflects his understanding of what is right, he is grossly misguided. He is a very negative influence.

I am very glad that you are trying meds. They should help you handle the stress better. Over the past weeks, have you put together a plan B? Do you have a list of reasonable requests, financial support for example, that you have on hand ready to share with H if he starts to leave? That would help you to think moe clearly and protect yourself in the emotional turmoil of the moment should that time come.

Maybe a separation would be best for YS until you have had a chance to make progress in MC.

Take care,
Estes

LIR,
Please continue to let us know how you are doing. We care about what happens to you and will worry if you don't come by every so often. I have no strong feelings about what to say to you, wish I could help more.

Please continue to practice what you have learned ( I know you will, don't know why I say it.) I know you are losing hope but we never know, and you will be happier if you keep working on it right along. If you can't have hope about your current situation, have hope that you will be happy again, and never give up on that.

SS

LIR,
Sorry to hear of your continued distress.
This guy may think he is religious, but I don't believe he knows the same LORD that I know.
I may have copied this from an earlier post on this thread. ?

I believe it bears repeating & it applies:

Love & Marriage:
True Agape type Love is all about sacrifices and acceptance of people for who they are. It is a conscious decision to sacrifice your needs for another. The opposite of Love is not Hate but selfishness.

The answer is so obvious it can be summed up in one biblical and even legal principal "the two shall be one flesh." A marriage has no room for individuality. The concept of marriage is singularity both legally and biblically.

Genesis 2 verse 24-25 it says spiritual, financially and in psychosocial aspects of your lives. To achieve that oneness H and W becomes one flesh and they were both naked and not ashamed. I take this to mean more than just physical, it includes emotional, so you have to strive to be able to stand naked with each other and not be ashamed, this will achieve amazing intimacy because no one is hiding anything, there is no need to hide anything.
hope this helps you, I believe people who want to have privacy and secretes should not be married because these facilitates disharmony in a marriage in the long run.

****
Like I said before, you need not reply to the friend -- Perhaps you can benefit from a posture of detaching ... with Love.
Be careful what you tell your children. They will have extreme difficulty understanding & you don't want to be accused later of trying to persuade them against your H! That seems to be another common theme with many WS's.
Have you read much on verbal / emotional abuse. Up and leaving the house, coming back @ 1:00 AM - this is abusive, IMHO! www.verbalabuse.com

Perhaps it is time to let the "Tiger out of the cage!!"
Prayers are with you!
Peace ...

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

DETACHING

This is an exert from a message posted on a marriage enrichment (“Marriage Builders”) discussion, message board, forum.

"Detachment is not a cold, hostile withdrawal; a resigned, despairing acceptance of anything life and people throw our way; a robotical walk through life oblivious to, and totally unaffected by people and problems; a Pollyanna-like ignorant bliss; a shirking of our true responsibilities to ourselves and others; a severing of our relationships. Nor is it a removal of our love and concern, although sometimes these ways of detaching might be the best we can do, for the moment.

Ideally, detachment is releasing, or detaching from, a person or problem in love. We mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically disengage ourselves from unhealthy (and frequently painful) entanglements with another person's life and responsibilities, and from problems we cannot solve, according to a handout, entitled "Detachment," that has been passed around Al-Anon groups for years.

Detachment is based on the premises that each person is responsible for himself, that we can't solve problems that aren't ours to solve, and that worrying doesn't help. We adopt a policy of keeping our hands off other people's responsibilities and tend to our own instead. If people have created some disasters for themselves, we allow them to face their own proverbial music. We allow people to be who they are. We give them the freedom to be responsible and to grow. And we give ourselves that same freedom. We live our own lives to the best of our ability. We strive to ascertain what it is we can change and what we cannot change. Then we stop trying to change things we can't. We do what we can to solve a problem, and then we stop fretting and stewing. If we cannot solve a problem and we have done what we could, we leam to live with, or in spite of, that problem. And we try to live happily—focusing heroically on what is good in our lives today, and feeling grateful for that. We leam the magical lesson that making the most of what we have turns it into more.

Detachment involves "present moment living"—living in the here and now. We allow life to happen instead of forcing and trying to control it. We relinquish regrets over the past and fears about the future. We make the most of each day.

Detachment also involves accepting reality—the facts. It requires faith—in ourselves, in God, in other people, and in the natural order and destiny of things in this world. We believe in the rightness and appropriateness of each moment. We release our burdens and cares and give ourselves the freedom to enjoy life in spite of our unsolved problems. We trust that all is well in spite of the conflicts. We trust that Some-one greater than ourselves knows, has ordained, and cares about what is happening. We understand that this Someone can do much more to solve the problem than we can. So we try to stay out of His way and let Him do it. In time, we know that all is well because we see how the strangest (and sometimes most painful) things work out for the best and for the benefit of everyone.

…The rewards from detachment are great: serenity; a deep sense of peace; the ability to give and receive love in self-enhancing, energizing ways; and the freedom to find real solutions to our problems."

****

I lost track of who posted this - FYI Take what you want & leave the rest!
Peace ...

^^bump^^

Thank you everyone for your responses - they helped me to deal with the person who wrote - I wrote back, and we had a very acrimonious exchange, which was v upsetting, but I then realized I was also in the wrong - I apologized for my wounding words, but also told him that what he had said to me was both judgemental and, in a later e-mail, deeply offensive to me. We have now both apologized to each other and agreed to differ. He understands where I am coming from and I understand his views, although I do not agree with him. But I believe he is a good person who has been trying to be supportive of our marriage surviving - very much so. I think he now realizes that he only knows my H's side of the story and hopefully he will tread more carefully should he be tempted to give advice.

Hey 2long - I like your style - maybe its time I gave up on Englishmen and came back to LA! Just kidding - not yet ready to throw in the towel! But keep talking!

Am going back to my own thread now, but think this is a good discussion.

HH - detachment - thank you for that - that is exactly where I am trying to be right now - its hard. But this is what I truly need, for my own self to grow as a person. I need to keep re-reading this kind of thing, over and over, so thank you for that.

LIR