Hi All,

Wanted to give a brief update on weekend.

Talked with XBF for a bit on the phone and the discussion turned again to R issues. I asked to meet with him, but he seemed too busy and uninterested in getting together. Instead of getting upset, I thanked him for his time and went to Sissy’s house to hang out.

Sunday evening, I planned on getting DS at 5:00. OS was with me and we had nice conversation about life, sex, and his cousin who had just “come out of the closet”. I try to be an open and supportive parent because I feel that he is going to talk about it with his friends anyway. I’d rather have him talk with me and get facts then to be misinformed and repeat the mistakes that I made.

Anyway received a call from XBF at 4:00 and he wanted to get together with DS and me for an hour at the park. This was a bonus because OS was with me. I said yes and we met there. The kids played, and we sat and talked mostly about things in our past that made him angry. Once again I let my guard down and expressed my pain and growth.

Here are the things that impacted me a great deal:

1. XBF wanted very much to see the light in my eyes and face when I looked at him. This was gone for a long time during my A. I asked him to look into my face and tell me what he saw. He acknowledged that it was there and was glad to see it. He was sad though because he said it was “too late”.
2. He said that he sees that I am hurting inside and acknowledged that he is hurting too. He voiced that he cares about me but does not love me anymore.
3. After I expressed the following:
a) I was sad because I was finally becoming the person that he knew I could be.
b) I was hurt because he held on for so long believing in me and when I finally get there, he gave up.
c) I wanted to express to him all of the things that I was so afraid to talk about when we were together.
d) I missed having his companionship in my life
He stated that he would be there to listen to me when I needed to open up.
4. He acknowledged that he felt sad that I had no parenting role models and that I had so much inner stuff to deal with.
5. I told him about my inner child work then and about the things I’ve come to understand about me.
6. He expressed so much of his anger and pain and I was really surprised because some of the things he shared were never communicated to me the whole time we were together.
7. I recognized his view on things and had been pondering the same issues for a while too. I expressed how deeply I wished it could have been different. Told him how I would have handled the situation knowing what I know today. And explained that I didn’t have the tools to love him the way that I wanted to then. Shared that I am learning from those behaviors and am no longer that person. I regret a lot of my actions during the time we shared.
8. He expressed his rage that I “screwed up a good thing”.

All in all I felt really glad because we are really starting to talk to each other in ways that we never did before. I feel as if I am only starting to get to know this person that I have been involved with for so many years. I’d much rather have what we are experiencing between us now, than to go back to what we were living with before. In many ways, it’s more difficult to be around each other, but at the same time it’s still very comfortable too. I actually expressed this thought, as we were getting ready to go.

I will be okay and so will he. I’m not sure if we will ever be together again, but I know that I have gained so much by simply trusting myself. There are days when the pain is so great I feel as if my heart is never going to heal, but more times than not, I feel a sense that I finally have found that place where I belong in the world. I am no longer searching for that something missing because the emptiness is gone.

All for now. Hope you all are doing well.

Kily,

I don't really know what to say, but that reading your post made me sad and very happy at the same time. I cannot foresee the future, but I do think that this story isn't finished yet. Your exBF is at a stage you were at a few months to a year ago. He is finding away to express what he feels and wants.

I don't know if the two of you will ever really be together again, but I think you are finding your friend again, and I suspect he is going to come to see you as his dearest friend. You two share a child and this new state of friendship will help your child tremendously.

You really have done a remarkable job. I think that both of you should be proud but you specifically because you had to face your demons and then face his anger and you have done this with such grace.

God Bless,

JL

Kily:

You said at a 2ple of points in your post that your XBF is "angry" or "expressed his rage". THIS is what's preventing him from feeling close 2 you again. As long as he chooses 2 react 2 what's happened with anger, he can't heal.

You've come a long way, and I'm hopeful that once he's gotten over his anger he'll see this "new you" and be able 2 see that his love for you is still there - and it can only get better. You will always be a family, remember, whether you're 2gether or apart. Give your XBF time 2 get beyond his anger, and keep working on YOU the way you have been!

All my best,

Kily,

Hi, said I would come and check your thread. I was really touched by the things you said. You have indeed come a long way. I too felt happy and sad as I read your post. It sounds like things are going better. At least you are getting some of the hurt out, for both of you. That should be very healing for you both. I hope that you read your post over and see the beauty of what you have learned. Maybe your BF will see the beauty too. Yes you may never reconcile but maybe you can have something special together just the same. Good luck. I wish I had advice but I don't. Just good wishes and prayers.

Sharon

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: uteconf footballwidow ]</small>

Kily-

I 'm glad Sharon bumped your thread up! I looked earlier this evening but couldn't find it. I'm afraid it's been a LONG Monday.

I wish that I had some words of wisdom to add, but I don't . I will say that your post moved me. It looks like you and your XBF are having some meaningful communication about yourselves. It sounds too like you're so much stronger now. That is so good to hear. I hope to get to that place too. ( I did feel a bit of it earlier today, while talking with a girlfriend of mine. )

IT is late now and I've been up a LONG time, perhaps I misread what I read now. I do see that you feel empowered, and that is wonderful to witness.

Thanks for sharing here and God Bless,

H_P

Hi All,

Thanks for the encouragement and feedback.

I'm in a sad mood today so I wrote this email to XBF:

I was wondering how things were going.

For some strange reason I am filled with a very deep sense of longing to be around you. I have this urge everyday, but for some reason it is much stronger today than normal. If you can believe it, I have really craved an invitation to help you do the yardwork and rake the grass! I am always fearful of asking because I know that you don't want or need me to do this with you. I imagine what your reaction to my desire is: "Yeah right! You want to help me with the lawn now, and I couldn't even get you to think about it while you were here! I don't think so..go away looser!"

I know that you don't want to hear about it and I'm sorry that I'm bothering you. I'm tired of holding it in and I have nothing to lose by voicing my feelings. I miss you, the kids, the cat, and EVERYTHING good and bad about the life we shared together. I understand that I screwed up a good thing. It hurts so bad that I can't stop crying in my cubicle.

Just wanted you to know that you are missed and loved.

I sent it to him, but I'm feeling that this wasn't a good idea.

Some reflection on your posts:

JL: I don't know how much "Grace" I have handled the situation with. I'm feel like the "honorable" person that I am trying to be is not real and that when I least expect it, the lying, deceiptful, selfish child will resurface. Honestly, I'm terrified that this "new" me will dissolve and that I will plunge back into the dark despair that I've been living with for so long. I know that these insecurities are a normal part of recovery, and sometimes just voicing my fears helps dispell them.

2Long: If there's one lesson that will always stay with me it's the one about ANGER. I realize that it is a protection and it is an instinctive reaction to ensure survival. I also know that there are many complex feeling underneath ANGER that are the stimulus for the top level emotion. I agree that in time the anger will go away, and XBF will have to face the deeper emotions that caused it. I had to go through this same thing to forgive myself and to see him for who he really was. I know that the love IS there, and that is the one thing that helps me through.

UC and HP:

You both have been an inspiration for me to believe in this situation even after being told repeatedly that there is "NO HOPE" of ever having a realationship with XBF again. Reading your own struggles helps me to believe in my convictions that real love and trust in ourselves and GOD can heal us.

All for now.

Kily,

I happen to think the word "grace" is a very powerful word. When someone handles a complex situation with apparent ease, the word "grace" comes to my mind. When someone moves with confidence and in control, the word "graceful" comes to mind.

When a person struggles with themselves and yet the do their best to cause "no harm" the word "grace" comes to mind.

I guess it is no surprise that saying a prayer it is often said to be saying "grace".

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know how much "Grace" I have handled the situation with. I'm feel like the "honorable" person that I am trying to be is not real and that when I least expect it, the lying, deceiptful, selfish child will resurface.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the point of "grace" Kily. Most people consider and struggle with doing hard things the "easy" way. But a person that endure that struggle and still say and do things that are positive do handle it with "grace". You are indeed doing just that. It will resurface into your consciousness, but it doesn't have to manifest itself into your deeds. You are not a fraud. This is the real you, the butterfly transforming from the caterpillar.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Honestly, I'm terrified that this "new" me will dissolve and that I will plunge back into the dark despair that I've been living with for so long. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, You have the tools now, you see that it is truely easier to live with yourself when you are the way you are now. I think you will have times when you are down, but you simply have to ask yourself, how should I handle this "gracefully". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And I think you will find the way.

Kily, your growth has been a joy to watch and is probably why I still post on this forum. You, HP, and others are growing learning and learning how to handle things with "grace".

It is a powerful word isn't it? It isn't even a masculine word either, something very important for you to consider. Power comes in many forms and no matter the form, good can come of it if it is used properly and with "grace".

You are doing well, and I suspect your exBF will not be as turned off by your email as you think. I would simply offer that it bothers me when you say: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I imagine what your reaction to my desire is: "Yeah right! You want to help me with the lawn now, and I couldn't even get you to think about it while you were here! I don't think so..go away looser!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THis is a disrespectful judgement on your part. You don't know what your exBF will think, and you shouldn't put words in his mouth. It is something you might want to read about on this site: disrespectful judgement. He might well like you to think better of him, than to think that your opening up would bring vengeful thoughts to his mind.

Something else to think about.

God Bless,

JL

Interesting, what JL wrote about disrespectful judgment. I need to remember that, and apply it.

Kily,
I must say that you too have been a great help and inspiration to me. Your email reminds me so much of the emails and handwritten notes I have written my exH, letters I've never sent. He has told me that notes make him feel 'pressured', so I don't sent them now.

Did your ExH respond yet? I so can relate to your desire to express everything to him, and to be near him. So it is with me! Your note is so very much like the notes I've written to ExH.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Things are really getting better , it just takes time.

Take care,
H_P

Kily,
Don't really have much advice. You should not think that the "OTHER" you the "BAD" you is the real you. It's not. Sometimes we just lose ourselves. It doesn't have to be an A there are a lot of ways to lose ourselves. Just be happy you found YOU again. Maybe your XBF will see again the YOU he loved. If not you will be happier living without the "BAD" self that wants to destroy your happiness.

I also found the disrespectful judgement thing interesting. I have to remember that when I do and say things to my H. There is that thing that people are who we think they are. Maybe WE are who WE think we are to.

Take care

Sharon

Hi All,

I've been thinking about JL's comments about disrespectful judgments because it isn't the first time he's raised this point to me.

I see that what I was doing when I raised this comment was pasing judgement on myself and communicating it as the way I think XBF perceives me. For me, conveying this negative was a self protection. The thoughts that I was conveying to XBF put me in a vulnerable position. I'm not used to opening up and I was afraid that he would reject my feelings and tell me that I was wrong. This has been a difficult thing for me to overcome and I'm so new at voicing what I'm really feeling, that the defense comes up and I naturally defeat myself so that I will not be dissapointed by XBF's reactions.

Part of the reason that I drew those conclusions is that XBF has made a precedent of defending his own feelings with this type of reaction towards me. Deep down inside of me, I am fearful that he is dismissing the changes he sees in me. I'm hurting because the inner child in me believes that he has written me off. I suppose this is where the need to protect myself is coming from. I'm still trying to sort this out.

Setting myself up for rejection has always been my way of coping with the loss of the things that I wanted so badly but never received. Obviously I want XBF's trust and love again, and I'm so afraid that I will never get it, I hold myself back. In doing so, I'm not giving him a fair chance to form an opinion of me on his own.

I see that pattern today, and only recognized it because JL called me on it. This stuff is so confusing. Wow! Where'd all that come from?

As far as the email yesterday, I never received any feedback about it at all. That didn't bother me though, because I wasn't expecting to. He did call after work, and again to drop DS off. It was all business, but I felt quite a bit of warmth from him when he dropped DS off at the house.

I did suprise myself today and I called him out of the blue to invite him to lunch. For some strange reason, I had memories dancing in my head of many lunches that we shared, and I really wanted the personal time with him to try and connect again. He turned me down <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ! I was angry with him this time for turining me down and LB'd just a little. I apologized to him for that, and a little while later sent him this email:

Hey,

I'm sorry I was angry at you decline for lunch.

I was feeling very sentimental because it has been a LONG time since you and I had met for lunch, and the memories of times like Shakespere and Long Beach have really been tugging at me for a while. Truthfully I was hoping that we would meet at Shakespere and have Subway grinders like we used to. I got angry because I felt that you were rejecting me and all of these desires and that was unfair because you have no way of knowing what I think and feel. I was also hurt because it isn't that often when I have an opportunity to get down to see you and you weren't interested.

So here is what I think and feel.
I miss all of the times we spent together at lunch. Whether it was walking along the seawall, feeding the ducks at Shakespere, or getting a little wild on Ellis Street.

Again, I'm sorry.

I have to confess that I had these little fantasy images of having a quickie with him during the lunch hour. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have been fantasizing a lot about being with him and I know that this is something totally unrealistic. Sometimes I feel like I'm totally insane for wanting this, but to be truthful, I'm really suprised too because it's been years since I've wanted him this badly.

Another fanasy I've been having is that he will let me hold him, and I don't let go until everything we can't say with words has been exchanged through our soul connection. Sometimes I feel that this is the exact reason why he will not let me touch him. GOSH, I sound so nutty!

Is this normal or am I just really getting desperate? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well, I've vented as much as I can today. I hope you all have had more interesting things to do than I have.

Have a nice night!

Guys,

There's one more thing I meant to bring up for your input in regards to current "events" between XBF and I.

I've noticed over the past few conversation that XBF has been "taking care" of me again. The best way to explain this is to give you an example.

We were discussing his desire to return to school this winter, and he talked about changing his major from BSEE to Business. After telling him I thought it was a great idea, I voiced a similar desire to change my major. I expressed a deep fear of not being able to handle the rest of the EE program because it is really intensive stuff. He actually became ANGRY at me and said that I should continue on. He felt that I was too close to the finish line and that if I changed now, I would be losing too many credits. He apologized for his anger in the matter, and I reinforced my fear that I couldn't hack it.

I felt as if he was telling me what to do instead of hearing my fears and concerns and discussing it with me.

The other example that jumps into mind is that I pick up DS a few nights a week and we have to be there at 6:00. He called me at work one night at 5:20 and criticized me for not leaving earlier. His feelings were that I wasn't giving myself enough time to fit everything in. I of course have not had any problems so far in being late with picking DS up every day.

I'm posting this because I want to know if you all have a feeling about where this is coming from. Yes, they are sore spots that put him on his edge, and I am listening to what he is conveying to me.

This is what I'm thinking about all of this and JL PLEASE don't tell me it's unfair judgements again! Just Kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I see his reactions as being consistent with those that we had when we lived together. My assumption then is that he is reacting to me at this time from the mode of "us" and not "you and me". Does this make sense? In passing his opinions along in this manner, he is viewing me as a significant other and not just someone he is trying to let go of. Basically I'm thinking that this is the "dance" that we have always shared in our relationship.

Am I off base with this?

Kily,

Hi, first things first. YES YOU ARE NORMAL. You can't believe some of the things I fantasize about H. Earlier on in this thing I even wrote a couple to him. I wish I felt I could still do that.

Sounds like you are making some headway with your exBF. I would caution you not to push to hard or expect things too fast. I think we have a tendency (I do at least) to see a break in the armour and want more, more, more. Everybody here says baby steps. I'm not up even to baby steps yet, SNAILS are whizzing past me. I think you are in that baby steps phase. Don't push your ex away by expecting too much too soon. Let him take it at his pace. If it is going to happen, IT WILL.

Take care,

Sharon

Kily,

Don't have much time tonight, but I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Simple rule for Disrespectful Judgements: Don't tell someone how they do think, or what they will think, and don't assume you know unless stated by them how they have thought or will think.

As for your exBF getting on you for thinking about changing degrees. All I an say is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kily he still cares for you. Make sure you don't push him too hard, but I think your honesty with him is getting the point across. What you have to guard against is assuming that something he does is about you.

Take lunch for example. He may have wanted to hurt you. He may be afraid of getting too close (those lunches have a special meaning for him as well). He may have been too tired to address issues with you and he fears your presence. He may have been busy at work and really only wanted a quick lunch. He may have NOT wanted to explain himself to you.

Notice that only one of the few possibilites had to do with you directly and could be considered a rejection. The others had to do with him and how he is feeling.

Must go, just remember do it with "grace".

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Kily,
So many of your thoughts and feelings are so much like mine! I truly can relate to how you feel in so many ways.

I have the same thoughts about my xH, and we haven't been together in 'that way' in about 4 years.

I would agree with everyone else here, that you can't push too hard. I have the same dilemna. For now I am pulling back, and I won't issue another invitation like I did two weeks ago for a while.

I've been up for so many hours, and had a VERY long work day and a class tonight. I can't add much at this point, brain is on pause.

I'm thinking of you, Kily,
H_P

Hi again everyone,

I missed you all yesterday. I went into MB withdrawl because I had no internet accss yesterday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I appreciate all of the feedback that everyone has given me. I almost feel as if we are all in this together and that each time one of us makes some headway in our growth, we are all benefitted from it.

I went into DS kindergarden class yesterday to read to the kids. I brought in a box of munchkins too because I completely LOVE kids and kids love munchkins. After school, I took DS with me and called DAD to let him know the details. DAD called me back an hour later, after retrieving my message and I started to tell him how wonderful it was to read for the kids. I told him DS was jumping almost out of his skin from pride, excitement, and the specialness of having MOM come into school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I then told him that I hoped he has an opportunity to do this for DS in the furture because it was completely uplifting and I believe he would also love to have that kind of moment with DS.

Then it started......"If you were such a loving mom, where were you last year when OS was starting school for his first day?" (I ran off to Maui duirng this week!) OUCH! So I told him "I regret the time that I've lost with these kids. I can't get it back or change it. I can only be there now and forever in the fututre and love them even more because of the pain I caused them (and you). I guess things are reaching a point where I need to back off from XBF again.

This led into another intense "Discussion" about the situation between us. In one way I can see a change because we are not yelling and screaming. This is a real big + in our dealings with one another. Also, it was initaited by him. I'm not sure how to view this. I believe that he is trying to hurt me by inflicting the negative during such a positive moment. I also see that this is a defense mechanism because there is a positive change in me and to downplay the implications of that, the negative surfaces to diminish the event. At the time, I wasn't looking at this remark objectively. I went into the "defense from a loving place" mode.

XBF continued the conversation with the fact that he is ANGRY, HURT, HUMILIATED, and feels that I will never be able to earn his forgiveness. He is expressing his anger and I am glad that he is sharing. It scares me at the same time because my inner child believes that he will hold this anger forever and always hate me.

He stated that he is angry because he has started to piece his life back together and he feels that I am expecting way too much from him. Again he expressed that he feels it's unfair that I chose to leave and I choose to come back, and he feels as if he has no rights to what he feels. He said that he was forced to "let go" and now that he has, I'm looking for him to just "turn on" again. I don't want for him to feel this way towards me. He has his free will to do whatever it is he wants. I don't want him back unless he decides that this is the RIGHT relationship for him. Just as I had to make that choice for myself. I try to express this but he doesn't seem to want to accept that this is where my motivations are. He still thinks I'm manipulating him all the time. Well earned judgement, I might add. I'm frustrated though because I'm not manipulating him. I'm being honest. Soemthing he hasn't seen from me in many years.

I asked him exactly what it is that he thinks I expect, and he could not answer this question.

I told him that I pray every night for another chance to heal our family and the relationship. I tell him that I shed tears for the damage that I caused and very much wish that I could take the pain that I inflicted back. I tell him that I am proud of him for being able to pick himself up and rebuild. I tell him that I understand that family, comittment, and relationship are no longer his number one priority and that I accept responsibility for my participation in the events that led to his mindset change. I tell him that I do not blame him for living the life he now leads and his response was "You BETTER not, you've created the person that I am today." I think this was an ANGER reaction because I touched on a painful issue here.

He then told me that he has given me way too many chances and he feels there are none left to give. I told him that he gave the OLD me many chances, but the new me hasn't had one. I told him that I see that his life is being put back together because he has been able to deal with his feelings. I told him that reading on THIS site and talking with everyone from both sides of the issue has helped me to understand how he is feeling now.

In telling him all of this, I was trying to show him that my opening up and sharing with him wasn't coming from manipulation. I expressed to him that he has dealt with his pain and has made a choice. I told him that I see the life he has built, and accept his decisions. I then stated that I am going through dealing with my pain NOW because I buried it for so long. I told him that although I understand it and support him, it doesn't mean that I will stop wanting this or wanting him. I told him that it would take time for me to get to a place where I can let go, but in the meantime, I said that "I finally have something in my life that I feel is worth fighting for so I will do every thing that I can to make amends for all I've done wrong.

After sharing our dialogue, he had to get off the phone because someone came into his office. I was really suprised because about 45 minutes later, he called me back to continue our discussion. I'm not sure what to make of that because it seems like he is always ANGRY when he deals with me. He was on his edge the whole time we were having our discussions, yet he called back to continue the topic. AMAZING! During the second conversation he again asked me: "What is it that you want from me?" He also had plans of going out last night, but he still felt compelled to continue the discussion even though he could have been utilizing that energy elsewhere.

He has told me that: "He wants me to rebuild my life", "He can't forgive me", "He doesn't love me", "We will NEVER be a couple again" and yet, he still is willing to have these conversations with me. The whole thing just confuses me.

I'm done venting. Time to check out som eother posts.

Have a nice weekend! I'm going with the family to the circus tomorrow night!

Hi Kily,

Sounds like your Ex is still hurting. Understandable. You just need to show that you are sincere. It seems to me a good sign however that he is willing to talk about his feelings, good and bad. In the stages of a R the Harleys talk about the Conflict stage. It is the middle ground. Sounds like your Ex is coming out of withdrawal back to conflict. Seems hard but this is the first step towards intimacy. Just hang in there. You might want to check out the stages on this site. Moving back to conflict it says shows he is beginning to be willing to let you meet some of his EN's. I wouldn't push to hard, or he might withdraw again. I guess just what they tell us BS's when our WS's start coming back. BABY STEPS.

Good luck to you and have fun at the circus.

Sharon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He stated that he is angry because he has started to piece his life back together and he feels that I am expecting way too much from him. Again he expressed that he feels it's unfair that I chose to leave and I choose to come back, and he feels as if he has no rights to what he feels. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So...He has started to "move on", and now he says that you have "halted" him. That he is being prevented from feeling what he wants to.

His FEELINGS have halted him. Not you, Kily. If he were truly indifferent towards you, and was sure of what he wanted, nothing that you said or did would affect him.

His feelings of affection for you, that he had filed away, are coming to the surface, now. He's now dealing with some emotions that he doesn't want to.

He's HAS to deal with them, now.

As to his anger? Well, Kily, one can't fight what one can't see. Neither you, nor he, can even begin to control his anger if he keeps it repressed.

Not only is his inner child blaming you for the way he feels, but I also think that he is asking YOU to help him deal with it, since he is convinced that you are responsible.

Isn't that, Kily, one of the things you are hoping for?

Don't worry until the silence becomes deafening.

Boo

Kily,

Boo, and Sharon have given you good advice. One thing that struck me is how truely clueless you are sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">XBF continued the conversation with the fact that he is ANGRY, HURT, HUMILIATED, and feels that I will never be able to earn his forgiveness. He is expressing his anger and I am glad that he is sharing. It scares me at the same time because my inner child believes that he will hold this anger forever and always hate me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are seeing his pain Kily. He is telling you things he wanted you to see and act on years ago and you didn't see them. He doesn't believe that you do now. He is angry because he hurts and is confused.

My question to you is: Do you fear his anger or do you fear his pain? Something for you to consider.

By the way, you won't EARN his forgiveness. It is a gift he will give HIMSELF when he heals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He stated that he is angry because he has started to piece his life back together and he feels that I am expecting way too much from him. Again he expressed that he feels it's unfair that I chose to leave and I choose to come back, and he feels as if he has no rights to what he feels. He said that he was forced to "let go" and now that he has, I'm looking for him to just "turn on" again. I don't want for him to feel this way towards me. He has his free will to do whatever it is he wants.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No he doesn't have free will Kily. That is the point, he still loves you and you hold tremendous power over him. That is the point you have to be aware of. You have demonstrated an ability that he doesn't presently have: you could walk out, do what you wanted with another man and not feel any pain for doing it. He couldn't do that and he still has a hard time dating this girl. You come back and he feel awful for dating her, while you apparently had no trouble leaving for Hawaii, and doing other things with OM. Don't you see what he is afraid of? That you can do something to him that he cannot and could not do to you.

You can completely destroy him and he knows it. You probably came pretty close last time and he survived and started moving on telling himself that you didn't care and wouldn't care.

Yet, here you are. Kily what should scare you a bit is the power you have over him. Sadly, right now he sees your power as ONLY having the ability to hurt him, not make him happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't want him back unless he decides that this is the RIGHT relationship for him. Just as I had to make that choice for myself. I try to express this but he doesn't seem to want to accept that this is where my motivations are. He still thinks I'm manipulating him all the time. Well earned judgement, I might add. I'm frustrated though because I'm not manipulating him. I'm being honest. Soemthing he hasn't seen from me in many years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He sees what you did as manipulation because he cannot understand how you could do this if you cared for him at all. If you didn't care, then by definition you were simply manipulating him.

It is a scary prospect that most BS's have to address and need help from the WS to do so. He needed you but you didn't need him. So now he is doing his best to NOT become as needy again.

That is why this takes time, and why it takes you consistently being honest with him. He must come to believe that what you are saying is really true and it is really you. That takes time. So in the meantime you see the pain (via the anger), and you will see him doing his best to protect himself, because he is still drawn to you.

Hcii, is right. Only if he goes to the point where he simply doesn't care will this truely be over.

I believe the quote by Eli Weismann (sp): "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference." applies here.

So hang in there, and let him talk and get his anger out. You will learn a lot about this man that you have so much power over.

God Bless,

JL

Kily,
I'm glad I came here to check your thread before resting. It was hard to come here the last few days. With my eldest in the home with me I don't have much privacy to sit here and read the posts, and respond.

As usual, I learn so much from reading your posts, along with Sharon's, too.

JL- If you read this, thanks to you for saying that I was handling my situation with grace, as you said here to Kily and me. I missed that when I read the same post during the week.

Kily, I would agree with Sharon that it sounds like your BF is moving out of withdrawal into a conflict phase. It seems like a good sign to me.

JL quoted one of my favorites, "The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference." I so agree.

JL said so much of value, as always, that I'll have to reread it again tomorrow evening. I'd never before thought of many of the things that he brought up, especially the 'power' thing that you hold over ExBF. Kily, I feel that my ExH is quite indifferent, and I hold no power at this point. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm so glad though that your man is talking with you.

How was the circus, by the way? Please do tell.

This is now sounding nonsensical as it is very, very late. Take care, and know that I am thinking of you.

Thanks too all who post here, you've helped me, too.

H_P

Hi Kily,
Sorry I haven't been around much. I have been keeping up with your posts though and I think you are doing a great job. XBF sounds as though he is trying to deal with a lot of emotions. It sounds like you are doing a GREAT job of giving him a safe place to express those emotions!! Boo and JL are giving you great advice, I am learning a lot from them as well. Please keep in mind that even though I may not post as much, I am still reading and praying.