Hi All,

I’m feeling blue today so I wanted to just post a vent. Actually, I need to cry and feel sorry for myself so you guys get to deal with it.

I talked briefly with XBF yesterday. He called to let me know that he was picking DS up after work. Again this was something I already knew, but I don’t want to assume anything about his actions any longer. During the conversation, I asked how the stress level was going and he seemed to be really “drained” by everything. I told him how much I wish it could be different for him. He got defensive, not ANGRY. He reminded me that this was a sore subject with him, but I wasn’t about to let this scare me off THIS time. I began very gently by telling him this:

“XBF, I wish so much that this could be different. Right now, what I would love is for you to quit your job and lean on me. I wish that you could allow me to support you with this problem now.” I received the answer that I have been consistently receiving: “You weren’t there for me.” I said you are right. We both know that the past can’t be fixed. My past behaviors are irrelevant to this situation now.” He said: “Irrelevant! They are very relevant.” I said: “You misinterpreted what I was trying to convey, what I was trying to say was that the BEHAVIORS are irrelevant because they are no longer the ones I have. Your FEELINGS and REACTIONS to those past issues are very “Relevant”. I again repeated that we could change this situation and that I was willing to support him NOW. Then I said that I didn’t want to argue, or add complexity to his day. I just wanted him to know that I wish that he could trust me so that we could address this issue as a team.

This sentiment is coming from my heart. I never loved him unconditionally and I want to SO badly now. It pains me that we were once so close, and now we are complete strangers. I’m trying so hard to be strong and loving. Why can’t he recognize the authenticity of my intentions? Do you guys see it? Am I just kidding myself here? What more can I do to show him how much I want this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I’m really trying hard to be his friend, but I don’t think it’s working. He seems to be very happy in his “new” life and clearly doesn’t want me to be in it. Should I just take his words at face value and leave him alone? Have I left one FOG only to enter another? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I’m almost finished with “The Truth About Relationships” so here goes:

I’m being selfish because I want him to see me differently. I want him to depend on me because it makes me feel needed. I want to feel needed because I am feeling empty and alone. I want for him to recognize my hard work and efforts because I do not trust my own judgments. I am fearful that I am not worthy of unconditional love. I am terrified that I will always feel empty and alone. I am afraid that I will never be whole enough to have a successful relationship again. I’m afraid that I will never get the chance to show him who I really am. I am SO ready to do this and because it’s not happening on my time line, I am turning to protective behaviors.

I came to another realization today. It was pretty painful to see, but this book really opened my eyes. Here it goes:

During the FOG, I continually found excuses for “why ” I had the right to act this way.
The simple truth is that I wanted so badly to get rid of the empty and alone feeling that I sold my soul for that temporary “fix”. I didn’t care about anything but feeling love.

THE LIE I told many lies to “protect my loved ones from pain”.
My Truth I was completely selfish. I didn’t want to face how utterly destructive my behavior was. I wasn’t being loving to my partner. I was blaming because I had expectations that he could never meet. I rejected him because I didn’t accept him for who he was.

THE LIE I kept telling myself that I cared about my kids and that they were better off with XBF. I convinced
myself that I believed that I didn’t deserve them.
MY Truth I was completely selfish. I didn’t want to face any responsibilities at all. I didn’t want to admit to how un-loving I was being. I didn’t want to face my fears. I didn’t want to see that I was abandoning them for my need to be loved.
THE LIE I continuously blamed XBF for everything that was wrong with my life.
My Truth I was completely selfish. I didn’t accept my partner. I criticized and held him accountable for making me happy. When he couldn’t do this I shut him out and turned to someone else.
THE LIE I didn’t love XBF anymore and I was in love with someone else.
My Truth I didn’t feel loved. I was empty and alone and found a fix to take care of this. I was selfish, and the “fix” became the only thing that mattered in my life. This was even above myself.
THE LIE It’s OVER! Find someone else.
My Truth I am afraid to face my pain. I am not worth loving. When I am around you it reminds me of the things that hurt me. I am afraid that I will never feel love. I am afraid that I can’t love you.
THE LIE XBF doesn’t love me anymore.
My Truth I didn’t love him unconditionally and he is fearful that I can’t love him now. He is feeling empty and alone and is looking to “fix” that in his life. Now that I know that I can accept him and love him unconditionally, he is scared because he doesn’t understand the whole situation. He is afraid to allow me to “fix” his emptiness because he doesn’t want to take a risk of feeling it again.

I have been learning how to love myself this way over the last year, only now I understand what this growth thing has been about. What I want to do now is to commit to giving him the gift of receiving unconditional love. Forget Plan-A and Plan-B. I’m going to love him and try to completely break myself of all expectations. This has been hard, but it is getting easier.

I know I’ve been all over the place today. It’s helped me quite as bit.

Thanks for following this basket case.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Kily,

The truth is you cannot "fix" him than he could you. That was what you now realize, that he wasn't the "fix". He was just a guy you happened to love.

Your realizations are very painful aren't they? But, I think they are honest. Someday you might want to tell your exBF about them. Why? So that perhaps he can achieve his own realizations. It won't necessarily help you, but you might help him.

So Kily if you cannot "fix" him what are you going to do? Do you love him enough to back off? Maybe, but you do have a child together. Do you love him enough to really talk to him about at least "trying" to be together for your/his child?

Do you allow him to make his own decisions, but ask that he allow you to be a friend if nothing else?

What is the plan Kily? That is what YOU can do. Your BF is very hurt, and very skeptical. People don't want to believe that other people can be so selfish, and that they could be so mistaken. But they can and are. He needs to face that.

Another thing he needs to face is that you/he/me anyone can change and we often do change.

Perhaps, you need to address what HIS plans and goals are for HIS life. Where does he want to be, who does he want to be married to? Just remember one other thing, he does have relationship issues and they existed BEFORE your A. How do I know? Most men don't have children with women they are not married to. They also don't seem to have such a strong aversion to marriage and commitment.

Kily, he has issues as well and many of them have nothing to do with you. So factor that into your thinking. You are addressing your issues, is he?

He may need to hear that as well. He wasn't a complete victim in this situation.

Must go, have a good weekend and start to enjoy your life Kily. There are many good people and nice things to enjoy.

God Bless,

JL

Kily,

Thank you so much for your "LIES" post. I don't KNOW but I have such a STRONG feeling that this is what my H is going through. It is very somehow comforting to read it from someone who has "been there" thank you. I only wish I could share it with him. Maybe someday, like you, he will see the truth. That is what I have frevently prayed for since day 1. For him to see the "TRUTH" not what SEEMS like the truth but the real truth. No matter what that meant for my M. If the real truth is that my M is over I can accept that. BUT, if it is a truth like you are talking about I hope he finds out before it is too late and that he is able to know that I will accept him back and not be afraid to trust me. I must thank you again. Hope things go well, sounds like even though you and EXBF are having problems, he is beginning to sort throught his emotions and pain. To me that is a positive, however painful, step forward. Best wishes and love.

Sharon

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your support through my confessional. It certainly isn&#8217;t easy to face all of the damage I&#8217;ve done. I was very touched that all of you seemed so supportive and non-judgmental. I&#8217;m trying SO hard to change my life. It&#8217;s really easy to believe at times that this is not possible to do. I know that I have though, because I feel very different inside.

JL,
I took your suggestions to the extreme and actually sent XBF a copy of the post that I wrote and your response to it. I was such an emotional basket case after I wrote that post. He wound up calling me during that time and I couldn&#8217;t even speak to him. I couldn&#8217;t say very much so I decided to send him the post. I wanted him to understand why I was so emotional. I forwarded him all of it because I wanted him to see the real me. I was tired of waiting to see him in person to talk to him about it.

He called me back a little while after reading it and his reaction was pretty much the same. His comments were: &#8220;It&#8217;s no different than all of the other posts you&#8217;ve shown me.&#8221; Basically the last time he read my posts he said I was emotionally all over the place. It is like it doesn&#8217;t matter to him anymore what I feel or think. I managed to squeak out from the lump in my throat that I had to call him back because I couldn&#8217;t speak.

About ½ hour later he called me again. He asked if I was on my way home and if I was okay. I told him not to worry about me, that I would be fine. He started to comment that he stopped loving me over time and that it didn&#8217;t &#8220;Just Happen&#8221;. He said that I had abandoned him for over 2 ½ years. I couldn&#8217;t respond because I was holding back my sobs. He asked me why I was such a wreck over this. I asked him why he just didn&#8217;t care. I told him that I was finally DEALING with my feelings. He said &#8220;You&#8217;re not dealing with any feelings, you&#8217;re falling apart.&#8221; I pointed out to him that this was a judgement of me from him and that I was grieving and in mourning. He stated that it&#8217;s been 2 ½ years. How can you be mourning now? I explained to him that I had suppressed everything, and I am only now fully facing my pain. He had difficulty with this.

His next comment was: &#8220;OP really screwed you up.&#8221; What could I say to this? I said: &#8220;YES, I did get really screwed up from this.&#8221; He said: &#8220;I mean xx # of years ago when you two first dated and he dumped you. You just had to go back xx# of years later to figure out why.&#8221; I didn&#8217;t share my thoughts here because I saw no positive gain in opening this can of worms right at this moment. I wanted very much to say: &#8220;I have been damaged all along and I am responsible for that. No one else is&#8221;. At this point, he would have seen that as still defending OP.

Why is he redirecting the focus of my pain? To me it felt as if he couldn&#8217;t believe that I was sincerely healing or being accountable for what I did to him. Instead, it felt like he transferred this emotion to my being screwed up due to someone else. Why can&#8217;t he recognize that I am feeling real feelings and that they MATTER? What I hear is &#8220;Because you were dumped by this guy, it messed you up now&#8221; instead of &#8220;You really seem to be hurting from the loss of our relationship. Am I misinterpreting this? I am also feeling as if he finds my emotional reactions to be a nuisance. I feel that because I cry or hurt, he sees me as out of control and weak.

I told him how much it hurt to admit to myself all of those truths, and that I was having a hard time believing that I could be that selfish and cruel to everyone. He then brought up the two times that I left to go on the trips. He told me that there were three people that couldn&#8217;t believe that they were being treated this way by me. I told him that I can&#8217;t believe I did that either, and I&#8217;m the one who did it. I told him that there was nothing I could do or say to ever take that away from them. He agreed. Strangely enough, after this was stated, neither of us knew what to say. We both became very quiet. I had a sense that something major had just occurred between the two of us and that the hinges on the door to forgiveness were breaking free from the rust bond that had sealed them shut.

A little while later I told him that I sent that email to him because I wanted to show him how deeply I regret everything. I told him that I wasn&#8217;t looking to &#8220;gain&#8221; anything from him. We cut the conversation there because there wasn&#8217;t anything left to say.

As far as &#8220;fixing&#8221; him, JL, I know that I can&#8217;t. I was referring to where his &#8220;mindset&#8221; is right now. What was in my mind was that he didn&#8217;t want to open those vulnerable places to me any longer. I want so much to just share the concepts with him and to see of he would be open to exploring &#8220;real&#8221; love with me. I completely understand that this is his decision and I am going to be supportive of him no matter what choice he makes.

I really don&#8217;t have an option but to let XBF go. I never had him to begin with. I have told him repeatedly that I want to work on a relationship with him, but I don&#8217;t want to do it for just DS&#8217;s sake. I want to do it because WE deserve it. I can only be his friend now. There is nothing else I can do unless he can forgive me. I seriously doubt that he will ever want any more than that with me, but ultimately I will be fine. I&#8217;m already fine. I&#8217;m learning SO much about me, and as painful as the lessons are, that has made this journey worth it.

JL, I&#8217;ve thought long and hard about the relationship issues that he had prior to his &#8220;R&#8221; with me. You have touched on a really painful memory that I haven&#8217;t explored since before the &#8220;A&#8221;.

There were times in our relationship when I recognized that I was in deep pain. It was very confusing for me because this man claimed to love me with all of his heart, but at the same time I always felt that he would never marry me. I took this as a rejection of the person that I was. Deep inside of me, I always thought that there was something wrong with me and blamed myself for his lack of commitment. After all, I believed that this man couldn&#8217;t have conflicts about his feelings for me, he loved me. How could he have issues? He had everything together and I was the one that had all of the baggage from my family. I really didn&#8217;t know myself or love myself at all then.

A part of me knew that I couldn&#8217;t change this situation and believed the &#8220;R&#8221; would never change. Wow, this hurts to remember. All I wanted was for him to love me and marry me! I came from a broken home and had always craved the &#8220;normal&#8221; family life that I saw on TV. During the time that I decided to seek someone else out, I had many thoughts about this. I remember thinking that I was always going to be a live in girlfriend. I felt that I would always have to give up everything I wanted to get him to love me. I wanted so much to gain the approval of him and his family, but I never could get it. Reading &#8220;TTAR&#8221; certainly gives me perspective on how completely empty I was.

The fact is HE wasn&#8217;t happy, and I couldn&#8217;t do anything to change it. I was so co-dependant that I felt like a failure because I couldn&#8217;t please him. I died inside because I blamed myself. Looking at it now, I&#8217;m very sad for the both of us. Neither one of us had a clue. At least now I can look back and see where my mistakes were. He has been seeing a therapist, but I&#8217;m not sure which issues it is he&#8217;s working on. I know he seems to hold me accountable for everything negative in his life. That&#8217;s okay though. I understand why, and can only offer him my love. Someday, maybe this will help him.

My plan is as follows:
Work on LOVNING me.
Work on letting go of the need for the protective behaviors that have ruled me for so long.
Continue to Love XBF unconditionally
Continue to communicate my pain and growth lessons in healthy ways to him if he will let me
Continue to show the &#8220;real&#8221; me to everyone
Unconditionally Love my Children
Post on MB as much as I can

Well XBF just dropped DS off. They spent some of the evening together at my insistence because I needed to regain my composure. He let me know that he was asked to travel even more at the client&#8217;s request because they liked HIM. The client chose him over the President of the company and everyone else. He seemed happy that they wanted HIM. I just simply stared at him with a deep feeling of concern because I know how much stress he is under as it is. This situation reminds me of the JOB change issues because he is accepting another &#8220;responsibility&#8221; as a temporary fix to his emptiness, and he is not looking at how this will impact an already &#8220;critical&#8221; stress load in his life. Unfortunately, he will not even consider my point of view on this. He doesn&#8217;t value my positions on much. I just feel that come April or May, he will hate me for not supporting his original job change because his stress level will be so critically high again. At least now I no longer believe that I am responsible.

Once again, thanks for getting through this. I&#8217;m sorry it was so lengthy but I needed to get it out and hear feedback.

Thanks for the post over on my thread, Kily. It really is a strange world, isn't it?

Now...what can we do here?

I think you need a break, Kily. Take the next few days and relax, and try not to worry about the exBF. Then.....

Go back to the basics. exBF is just another very handsome, witty, charming man that you would be interested in having a relationship with. He's cute. He's funny. He's a stranger.

Because he is. Work from there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is he redirecting the focus of my pain? To me it felt as if he couldn’t believe that I was sincerely healing or being accountable for what I did to him. Instead, it felt like he transferred this emotion to my being screwed up due to someone else. Why can’t he recognize that I am feeling real feelings and that they MATTER? What I hear is “Because you were dumped by this guy, it messed you up now” instead of “You really seem to be hurting from the loss of our relationship. Am I misinterpreting this? I am also feeling as if he finds my emotional reactions to be a nuisance. I feel that because I cry or hurt, he sees me as out of control and weak. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because HE is part of the reason for the loss of the relationship. He knows that. But he doesn't want to remember that. Think back to what JL told you about him not being able to hurt you. About him having trouble with another R.

He doesn't want to believe that he is a party to this, because he cares. He won't believe that he is hurting your and his R chances. He can't stand the thought of that.

I've went back through some old posts and I never saw where he has even hinted that he disliked you. He always placed the blame on someone else. Why? Because if he truly thought that he was hurting you, it would devastate him.

Maybe for just a little bit you need to quit focusing on what you hope to accomplish. Think back to the basics, Kily. You are going to have to "emotionally" seduce him all over again.

You are wanting him to reach out and "grab" and "hold" your love for him.

Don't try to seduce him into your life.

Seduce yourself into his. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Basics, Kily. Basics. With patience.

Boo

kily,

In the almost 4 years I have posted here, there have been times when I wish I was actually physically around the party I am talking to. Why? Because I have such mixed emotions and seeing the other person in person always allows me to sort out my confusion.

I just wish I could reach out and take away your pain, but you know only you can do this. As I read your anguish and clearly the pain your ex is in, I would love to get the two of you together, and just brow beat you two into facing each other and the demons. I cannot do that, any more than I can make sense out of Boo's W (exW???).

But, here is what I would do, if I were running your life. I would tell you to focus on your children, make the holidays good for them, make the place you live in a place you enjoy. Make your life a life you want. Enjoy your job, even if it is with engineers (I think I remember that correctly).

Kily, I don't know how old you are, perhaps I have forgotten. But, your exBf cannot make up for what you parents did. You cannot make your ex love you, and if he doesn't/didn't no amount of sacrifice on your part will change that. Kily, there are men out there that know how to love and aren't afraid to do so. There men out there that you mere presence will charm.
But, none of that will matter if you are not happy with yourself and leading a life that you enjoy.

Think about this just for a moment. If you were to run into a man, who was relatively happy with his life, had a house or apartment decorated, settled into his job and enjoyed it. A man who seemed comfortable in his own skin and life. The very first thing you would know is what makes this man happy. The second you understand what kind of life he would like to lead and how he would like to lead it (is he a French restaruant type, or Burger King type, or perhaps he loves both). Now if you were to be comes friends with him, you would know who you were friends with. If you began to fall for him you would know who your were falling in love with.

My point is this, if you want happiness in your life, the figure out what makes you happy and lead that life. You will find that the men in your life (your ex or someone new) will be much more comfortable. You will find if they fall for you it is something THEY do, not something you have to sacrifice to MAKE them do.

I think you should continue your efforts to be first and foremost a friend to the father of your child. I think however, that you should work toward making yourself happy and enjoying your life. Develop some hobbies, go to movies concerts, go with girl friends, family whatever.

It sounds as if your family life was not good, so you have less instruction on how to do this, but girl look around for a mentor someone to show you how to lead your life in a manner you want.

You are a very insightful young lady, you have been deeply hurt, and you have inflicted your share of your pain. Unforunately, no one can take it back. It is done. But you can learn from what has happened and you are, but I fear you are not learning how to be happy. That only YOU can do, and you should start learning this now.

Perhaps you ex will see the change in you. Perhaps he will refuse to see the change in you. But, he has his own issues to deal with and they are NOT all to do with what you did. He had some before this.

So relax and focus on your life for awhile. That is what I would tell you if I were running your life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are a good woman and you are learning. I suspect you are quite a catch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Kily,
JL, Boo, and Sharon have said so much here of value. I learn a lot from reading their posts on your thread!

I don't have much to add at this moment. I feel a bit overwhelmed with all I have read. Sometimes it is all very difficult, but thanks to you, others here on MB, time, and with God's help, -- I have gotten much stronger. You certainly have, too.

Know that I'm thinking of you, Kily. You are doing very well, and you sure are helping me a lot!

H_P

Hi All,

I wish I had read some of your responses yesterday, before all of this happened.

JL, You have me in tears. You really do ssem to know me well, and right now I'd give anything to be sitting in a room with you. Somehow, I feel very "connected" to you and BOO and it helps me so much to know what you think. A lot of what you said in your post to me was very true. One thing I want to say to you is that I am happy, I'm just doing some hard work and trying to learn so that I don't repeat the mistakes that I've made. When I do finally have the relationship that I deserve, I want to know that I have the best tools possible to go the distance. I persoanlly never plan to be in the "Divorced\Divorcing" section. When I Marry, it will be a real commitment FOR LIFE.

Boo- I am very touched that you took time from your own pain to address mine. You are truly a great guy and I feel VERY strongly that only good things will come to you from this awful experience. Your XW doesn't know what she has lost.

Feel like going out for coffee and having a BASH session? JL is right that I need to get out and start being happy. The idea of just doing something this crazy sounds like fun.

Sharon and HP- Join us for coffee? We can all meet in Maui at the little burger joint in Kaanapali. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You guys have been so great. Thanks for the support.

Now on to the detals.

I&#8217;ve been leaning quite heavily on all of you this weekend. It seems that when it rains, it pours. This will be a long post (surprise, surprise) but I need to get this out. As usual, thanks in advance for reading.

I had DS all day yesterday because DAD was out of town in NY. I had been extremely antsy yesterday and just the slightest little things annoyed me. This told me that I needed to process something, but I wasn&#8217;t quite sure what. Well I was about to find out.

We were driving in the car and passed the restaurant that DAD took DS to to meet &#8220;J&#8221;. DS wanted to go in and I told him that this was Dad, J&#8217;s and your special place and that I didn&#8217;t want to go in there. DS then said to me: &#8220;No Dad took us to UNO&#8217;s.&#8221; I said: &#8220;When&#8221;? He said:&#8220;Last week&#8221;. I saw red! Turns out that DAD and &#8220;J&#8221; decided to get the &#8220;families&#8221; together for dinner. God this hurt so much. I let Stephen tell me about it, and he was worried that he was going to get into trouble for telling me about it.

Of course I confronted DAD with this when he finally called me, and it became another one of those &#8220;deep&#8221; emotional moments. The conversation that transpired went close to this. There was so much share that I&#8217;m sure that I&#8217;m forgetting something.

MOM: I&#8217;m extremely angry right now and I&#8217;m sure you know why.
DAD: Because it 7:00 and I&#8217;ve been away all day?
MOM: No, That&#8217;s not it. You brought DS around her AFTER we agreed that this would not happen.
DAD: We made that agreement in August.
MOM: What&#8217;s worse is that HER KIDS were there.
DAD: (Super defensive) What is it that you want?
MOM: I can&#8217;t believe that you broke your promise to me. I am so hurt, jealous, angry, and scared right now that I don&#8217;t know what to think or say.
DAD: I felt all of those things when you left me.
MOM: We agreed that you would not do this. I don&#8217;t want DS around her, and I don&#8217;t want HER in my house! You broke your promise to me.
DAD: (Very quiet)
MOM: Hello, are you there?
DAD: YES. I&#8217;m here. What are you expecting? I could barely pick myself up and get myself out of bed in the morning after you left, and all I had to rely on was &#8220;D&#8221; (best guy friend) and a few people at work. You weren&#8217;t there for me. Now, I&#8217;m living alone, and I&#8217;ve found someone that cares about me who makes me feel relatively happy. I think it&#8217;s unfair that you left and now expect to be able to come back into my life after all of this.
MOM: I'm not looking to just "Waltz" back in to your life. I simply want the opportunity to spend some time with you to see where this will go.
MOM: Why didn&#8217;t you tell me that she worked with you? I can&#8217;t compete with that!
The phone goes dead. A few minutes later he pulls into my driveway and turns the car off! This is a first. Usually he leaves it running and is in and out of there in two minutes flat. He gets out of the car and stands in front of it. I stand about 6 feet away in my front porch, holding the railing for support and as a protective barrier from him.

The conversation resumes:
D: I didn&#8217;t hear what you last said, can you repeat it please?
M: Why couldn&#8217;t you tell me that you worked with her?
D: I didn&#8217;t think it was important.
M: I am trying so hard to show you how much I want this. I am scared because you won&#8217;t let me show you what I&#8217;ve learned. I&#8217;ve come to see so many things differently and all I wish to do is to love you the way you deserve to be loved.
D: You didn&#8217;t love me when you left and went to Hawaii. You didn&#8217;t love me when you ran off to Vegas and didn&#8217;t call. Now after only three months, you tell me that you&#8217;ve changed! How can that happen so quickly?
M: I&#8217;ve been working on this a long time. When I left, I was running. I was so ANGRY at everything that I just wanted to be free of it. I didn&#8217;t believe for a moment that any of this could be saved, I was desperate.
D: How many times I begged and pleaded for you to stop this. I contacted OP, and I asked you several times to see what you were doing, and you didn&#8217;t listen to me. I blame the both of you for this.
M: During all of this, I heard you. I just didn&#8217;t want to face my fears. I was worried about hurting the OP, and I was just plain scared!
D: This is pissing me off! I am So angry right now. (Slams the car door!) Why do you even want this? You hate everything about this &#8220;R&#8221;. You didn&#8217;t like my family, you hated the time I spent working in the yard or on the house!
M: I never hated any of it. I was just so resentful because I was always number 4 on your list. I never mattered to you as much as all of those other things so as a way to protect myself from that &#8220;rejection&#8221;, I built walls and became angry.
D: There were that many walls?
M: Yes. (Began to cry) There were that many walls and for the first time, I have knocked them all down and want you to see it.
D: (quiet)
M: Remember all of the dinners that we had a Thanksgiving? How wonderful they were when your family came? That is what I really felt towards them. I just never felt that I was deserving enough, or good enough for them or you.
D: And this has changed that drastically in three months?
M: Yes.
D: How.
M: You want to know how? I&#8217;ll show you. (I ran inside and grabbed my copy of &#8220;The Truth About Relationships&#8221;. I handed it to him and said: &#8220;This is how.&#8221; I read this book and it helped me realize just how afraid and empty I was. It helped me understand and change my behavior. Read it, and you will start to see what I am talking about.
D: I&#8217;m done reading books! He repeated: I could barely pick myself up and get myself out of bed in the morning after you left, and all I had to rely on was &#8220;D&#8221; (best guy friend) and a few people at work. You weren&#8217;t there for me. Now, I&#8217;m living alone, and I&#8217;ve found someone that cares about me who makes me feel relatively happy. I think it&#8217;s unfair that you left and now expect to be able to come back into my life after all of this. I feel as if you are threatening me now.
M: Threatening. Please tell me how and I will change the behavior.
D: I feel like you are asking me to give up this R with J and it&#8217;s unfair.
M: I am not asking you to give J up. I know how much her presence in your life means. I&#8217;m just asking for an hour, a day, a weekend. I want some time with you to allow for us to get to know each other again.
D: Do you want to meet her? WHAT THE HELL IS HE THINKING HERE?
M: Not really. Would you be comfortable with me meeting her, and telling her how much I want to rebuild my family? She&#8217;s innocent in this. I don&#8217;t want to hurt her by giving her this information.
D: You&#8217;re right, She is innocent. We have an innocent R.
M: I know that. But I also know that I love you, and we have many years together that weren&#8217;t all bad.

Basically it went on and on like this for a while. I was getting very discouraged, but yet he remained standing and we discussed things fairly rationally. Finally something overcame me and I just went towards him with my arms wide open. I wrapped my arms around him, and although he didn&#8217;t hug me back, he didn&#8217;t pull away. I just held him to me and rubbed his neck with one hand. I grabbed his face in my hands, looked very deeply into his eyes and I said to him then: &#8220;XBF, I love you. If I ever get the chance to be with you again, I can tell you that you will have the most loving, dedicated, and sincere woman that you could ever have. I&#8217;ve realized what I&#8217;ve lost, and I would do everything in my power to guarantee that I will not lose it again.&#8221; Boy was I feeling the s3xual energy passing between us at that moment. Then I tried to kiss him. I saw him begin to lean in and then he stopped himself and said &#8220;NO&#8221;. I tried to pull him to me, and he resisted. Instead, I started to snuggle into his chest the way I used to when we were together, and I kissed that spot in between his breasts that I loved to kiss so much. After that, I looked into his eyes again and then I kissed him on his cheek. I asked several times if he would please just kiss me once, but then let go of the embrace. I wanted to kiss him so badly to show him how much I really was feeling. I knew he was feeling things too, and I wanted to share what words could not convey.

I went in the house to get DS, and came out again a few minutes later. I thought that he would be sitting in his car, but he was standing closer to the porch. I went over to him and hugged him again. I just relished in his scent, and the feel of his arms around me. I became very aware of the ANIMALISTIC energy that was passing between us. I repeated then that I was so sorry for everything that happened between us, and that I regretted my actions throughout all of this. I began Sobbing like a child, in his arms. Finally, I broke away again, said goodbye, and went into the house.

What the hell happened here? I am so confused, discouraged, encouraged, scared, and thrilled all at the same time. Did I LB by showing him my pain. Was this demanding? Should I have held it all in?

Today we talked and he was VERY angry. He made it VERY clear that I was beating a dead horse and that I needed to LET HIM GO! He told me that he was tired of receiving S**T in his life and that he was DONE with me. He told me to stop BEGGING him for a reconciliation because he was never going to allow that to happen. I asked him: Do you think that this is begging. I said: All I am trying to do is to show you the real me. I am opening up my wounds for you to see, that is all! He said: I&#8217;ve known you for fifteen years! I said: &#8220;How could you know me for fifteen years, when I didn&#8217;t even know myself. I said: &#8220;You have seen what you thought was the best of me, and you have seen the worst of me. Now I want for you to get to know the Golden part of me. He asked again, very angrily &#8220;WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?&#8221;

He told me that if I continued with this that he wants NO CONTACT! OMG?!? Then he said, even my therapist is wondering what you are doing. He knows how I feel, I know, why can&#8217;t you just accept it? Why don&#8217;t you go to my therapists appointment tomorrow? He&#8217;ll even tell you to move on. I said: &#8220;Fine. I WANT to go to your therapist visit.&#8221; I want to tell him exactly what I&#8217;m thinking and feeling. I want him to tell me what I&#8217;m doing wrong. You can even come to the visit because I have nothing to hide! This didn&#8217;t go over to well. He completely backed down on this and said: &#8220;Why don&#8217;t you take it to your own therapist&#8221;? I said: &#8220;You told me that your therapist has made a judgement about me and this situation. I want to voice my position and hear it from him. He finally agreed, but wasn&#8217;t happy. I told him that he could join me there if he wanted to, but I don&#8217;t think that it&#8217;s required. Did I LB here? I guess my attitude on this is that we Need to continue to communicate. If he goes into withdrawal again, I&#8217;m not sure that he will come out again. I have to believe that telling his therapist about the feelings I have, and the things I am trying to achieve, can only help.

I have made such a mess! Help me.

I'm gonna try to say something here, Kily, that I hope makes sense.

About 20 years ago, I desperately wanted to become an Amateur Radio Operator ("Ham"), not to be confused with a CB'er....

Anyway, I had to learn Morse Code in order to get my license. There were 3 classes of licenses. One required Morse Code at 5 words/minute (WPM), one at 13 WPM, and one at 20 WPM. I decided to take a stab at it.

I have never been so frustrated in my life! I was studying morse code every spare second of my life. I wanted that license BAD! But I couldn't get the hang of it at all. There were many times that all of the dits/dashes sounded like machine-gun fire. The harder it got, the harder I worked. The harder I worked, the worse it got. The worse it got, the harder I tried.

See the cycle here?

Anyway, one of my "elmers"(teachers), asked me for my study material. I gave it to him. He then told me that I could have them back a couple of weeks later.

WHAT!! Don't do this! I am determined to get my license! I CANNOT study without the material!

Then my teacher told me that after a 2 week break, that I would know more than if I had studied for those 2 weeks. I just knew he was crazy.

But he was so very, very, correct.

When he gave my study material back to me, I was LIGHT YEARS ahead in learning the code. I wasn't giving MYSELF enough time to comprehend what I was learning. Oh, I was learning, alright. I just wanted to KNOW that I was learning.

My point being...knowing that we have learned is really no better than the fact of just learning it.

And sometimes we need a break to let what we already have learned, sink in. We actually can "crowd" our mind.

You are not in as bad shape as it may appear to you. exBF is talking, whether it be through anger, or whatever. You are going to have to "suck it up", in a lot of his remarks. He's getting it out in the open. I know that's tough to handle, but hey...Vent to me, JL, HP, and the others. That IS why we are here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

He's healing. Slower than you may hope, but it's happening.

He wanted this "flare-up". He showed that by hanging up and proceeding to come there. You wanted him to open up...You are just now beginning to see what he's been wanting to let you feel for a long time.

Try not to take this as being harsh, but you are NOT going to educate him as to what you have learned by letting him read it. He is going to have to SEE it, and then he must be willing to accept it. You can't force him to see what you see.

As a matter of fact, he may NEVER see it as you do. But...to see as you do is irrelevant. He needs to understand in HIS way. Not yours.

Kily, honestly, I think you need a break. Do your best to hold things as they are at the moment. I know when I was in the early stages after D-day, I was just as you are. But it didn't work.

I honestly think that you are going to have to treat him as I said earlier. For all that matters, you both are strangers to each other now. Think back to his comments. He senses that you are just wanting to "go back to where you left off". He's NEVER going to accept that.

Your situation requires a horizontal move. But you are going to have to slide far enough away so that you can't see parts of the old relationship.

Then take off from there.

To me, to seduce someone is to have them to want to do something on their own, without realizing that it is because of someone else's actions. That is probably going to have to happen here. That's my take.

Kily, his greatest pain derives from his feeling that he cannot be with you. I think you need to back off a little bit, but yet show him the woman that you really are.

Show him that you are a woman that has made some serious mistakes in her life, accepted the consequences, yet was strong enough to overcome them. A woman who now does not need to run from adversity.

You told him that desperation caused you to lose yourself earlier. Do you think that being desperate now is going to change his thinking of you? Or is he saying to himself that when things get tough, you still will "lose it"?

That's NOT the real you, Kily. I know that, and you know that. Don't try to convince him that you are different, now. If you ARE indeed different, it will be obvious. That will be another brick laid in the foundation that you will not have to worry over.

I smiled when I read the comment of his that he was "relatively happy". What the s**t does that mean? ALMOST happy? Just a wee bit from being "happy"? Very telling, in my book.

You are going to have to let him overcome his fears before you will gain his respect. He's going to be VERY offensive at times. Some times you will need to overlook that.

Ever heard that " A good offense is the BEST defense"? That's his way of thinking, now. As long as he stays on the offensive, he will never have to be defensive. He's been there. He doesn't like that feeling. He got hurt when he wasn't playing "offense".

Kily, all in all I want to say this. In looking at everything that you posted, one thing is obvious to me.....

You wanted to talk about it, so he responed with "You want to discuss this? Well, By G*d, let's discuss it!"

Because HE felt it was WORTH the time. You will know when he doesn't.

Then it's time to be concerned.....

I've ranted enough. Think about this....

Boo

Another thing......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> D: I’m done reading books! He repeated: I could barely pick myself up and get myself out of bed in the morning after you left, and all I had to rely on was “D” (best guy friend) and a few people at work. You weren’t there for me. Now, I’m living alone, and I’ve found someone that cares about me who makes me feel relatively happy. I think it’s unfair that you left and now expect to be able to come back into my life after all of this. I feel as if you are threatening me now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that comment is very telling. He makes it a point to tell you about "someone caring for him". Wonder why he didn't say "I've found someone that I care about"?

Hmmm........

Boo

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>

.... .. / -... --- --- --..-- / - .... .- -. -.- ... / ... --- / -- ..- -.-. .... / ..-. --- .-. / -.-- --- ..- .-. / .-- --- .-. -.. ... / --- ..-. / .-- .. ... -.. --- -- .-.-.-

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay! I'm taking a vacation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've been arriving at this, but I needed to express my pain in order to see the dynamics.

JL,
You offered me some insights that really hit home. I've decided to look for a "new" place to live because the house that I'm renting is something I "settled" for because I didn't have the energy to face that it was a long term move. I found a condo complex on LI sound that has a poo, and a private garage. Right now, the house I live in only has a shower stall! I miss taking NICE HOT baths.

Thanks again for listening.

Double Post.

<small>[ November 15, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> .... .. / -... --- --- --..-- / - .... .- -. -.- ... / ... --- / -- ..- -.-. .... / ..-. --- .-. / -.-- --- ..- .-. / .-- --- .-. -.. ... / --- ..-. / .-- .. ... -.. --- -- .-.-.-

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're Welcome! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All I can say is that I never would have guessed... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Boo

Hi Guys,

It was a real short vacation. Unfortunately, this time the situation was completely out of my control.

We ended up at the house and it was UGLY.

Basically he was RAGING with ANGER, and I was a bit in shockl because all of my things had been packed and I wasn't quite prepared to deal with it.

I'm going to make this short.

He was so angry that he wanted very badly to hit me. I could actually see it in his eyes! He was standing about two inched from my face telling me that he doesn't want me. I simply stood my ground and listened to him. For once, I wasn't afraid of his anger, and I was NOT going to run away.

After that he backed up a few feet and continued his RAGE outrush. I learened things that he never shared with me, such as:

He almost lost his job because of the situation between him and I.
I cost him the job at the utility company.
He was so ill that he had to go and get a stress test done on his heart.

He never told me any if this was going on. I asked him to share more of these details with me, but he was too angry and defensive.

When the storm had settled, I told him the following:

"As hard as it is for both of us to sit here with each other and to talk about this stuff, and as difficult it is to sit here and face the ANGER that you have inside, I still feel very good when I'm with you. I think that these exchanges are really difficult, but the only way that we are ever going to have any kind of positive "friendship"/Parenting "relationship" is for us to go through all of this so we can heal. I need to see what kind of pain I caused you. You need to tell me how bad it is."

He agreed to continue the discussion on Saturday.

Guys,
I'm really struggling with this one. I never knew that I mattered that much to him. I honestly thought that he was just trying to get back the toy that someone stole from him. I feel so awful for not being there for him. I'm not sure if being there NOW is really a good thing for him.

I'm not really afraid of his anger anymore. I was fairly comfortable and pretty comforted by his outbursts. I guess I'm a lot different because I would have shut off and run away 3 months ago.

I am just really wondering if confronting his ANGER is really a healthy thing for him? I want to believe that it is the right thing to do, but he tells me that he is finally able to sleep and that he is happy in his life. The only time he feels ANGER is when I am around. He says that then his blood pressure goes way up, and he is consumed wiht rage. I know that when we have conflicts like this, he doesn't sleep well. JL, I'm not afraid to face his pain. I'm afraid of harming him more than I already have. I am just beginning to see how deeply this man felt. He never showed me before.

One other comment that I thought was significant to add:

He said to me, "Get on with your life. Stop torturing yourself."

Is this what I'm doing? I really didn't think so.

Thanks.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,

I think he is transfering his reaction to meeting you to you. You are not torturing yourself, I don't think. You would know.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't want to strike out in anger, but HE DIDN'T DID HE? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Personally, I think it is good to get this all out. It may not restore the relationship as you want it, but obviously he has held a lot of pain in. He needs to speak of it, and perhaps you need to here it.

Do you remember when I told you that you have a lot of power over him? Now you are getting a glimpse of the power you held/hold. In a way I am surprised that you are surprised that his feelings were that deep. You had a child with him and he stayed with you and the child, although not married. It is hard for me to fathom that he wouldn't have had deep feelings for you. It sure has been clear from your interactions with him.

Kily, if you learn nothing else from all of this, please learn that you can and do have the ability to affect another human being deeply. The irony is that many times you will do it without even trying. Other times it will be obvious. I think it is/was obvious that your exBF had deep feelings or he wouldn't have tried so hard to hang on to you when you left him.

He is facing his demons now, his fears, and yes the pain he walled off. It is not pleasant for him as you know, just as it wasn't pleasant for you once you realized what you had done.

I don't view this interaction as a bad thing Kily. Personally, I view it as a positive thing. There used to be a saying in football: "You aren't in trouble when the coach is yelling at you, you are in trouble when he never yells at you." I suspect there is an aspect of that saying that is true here. If he didn't care, if he was fully ready to walk away, his anger and frustration would be gone.

Perhaps this will dissipate his anger and allow him to move on, perhaps it will bring you two closer. I don't know but I do think it is good to settle various things now, because you two do have a child together and his parents need to be on an even keel as he/she grows up.

This is part of the drill Kily, not pleasant but probably necessary. That is my take on this

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I wanted to address something you said.

You wrore:
"Do you remember when I told you that you have a lot of power over him? Now you are getting a glimpse of the power you held/hold. In a way I am surprised that you are surprised that his feelings were that deep. You had a child with him and he stayed with you and the child, although not married. It is hard for me to fathom that he wouldn't have had deep feelings for you. It sure has been clear from your interactions with him.

I felt this way because for many years I tried so hard to make him happy, but he was always SUPER CRITICAL of the things I didn't do. This coupled with his way of not being around to share in things with me, led me to believe that he really didn't care all that much. I think the topper was when I went into my full blown depression and as I sat on the floor and begged and cried for help, he told me things like "It's all in your head. There's nothing wrong with you." and "If you want out, you have to do it yourself. I'm not helping you." These comments were hurtful, and I felt that the person who made them couldn't love me. I even told him that I was suicidal several times. He didn't believe me. This was about when the EA started.

After years of not being heard, criticized, disreagarded, and dismissed I felt as if his feelings weren't there. I didn't see that he was scared to death and not able to help me. I didn't see that my own neediness and lack of self love was the real problem. So, Yes I am suprised that his emotions ran that deep. We both hid our feelings really well.

As for DS, I was pregnant once prior with his child. We had been living together for over 2 1/2 years and were planning on getting married. He gave me an ultimatum of MOVE OUT or Abort. I LOVED this man so much that I stayed. When I became P with DS, I received the same ultimatum. I told him to stick it up his A** and deal with it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think he came to really LOVE me during that pregnancy.

He has a power over me too.

I'm not voicing this to be critical or blaming. I have forgiven him and myself for a lot of this. I'm just trying to show you why I thought he didn't care very much for me. I would have done ANYTHING for this man.

When I left for Maui, I had truly given up hope that he did love me. I never thought that he would hold on the way he did.

I guess this gets back to your comments about not being able to make someone love you no matter how much you love them. There has never been truer words than these.

Thanks,
This was hard to share. It's been a healing reflection for mw.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,

This leads me back to the question I asked H_P on her thread and I will ask you. Do you really want to be married to this man? He has some serious issues.

Oh By the way, depression IS all in your head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I wonder what he was thinking when he said that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Listen, I don't doubt that you didn't feel he loved you. But, now that you are getting stronger and looking back you can see that there was nothing you could do to MAKE him love you. He has to make that decision. He thinks the fact that you are around is pressure to make him love you.

I suspect what you really want is for him to forgive you and release you from the bond. He does have power over you as well, that is what a relationship is really about no matter how it is structured.

Keep up the good work. I suspect you are helping him, and you are helping yourself address this.

Now, let me ask you a hypothetical question. Knowing what you know now, how would you have addressed the situation you were in before you left? Before and during your pregnancy? I mean this not from a helping him point of view but from your point of view.

It seems to me (and I don't know why) that as you answer that question, several of your issues and the ways to address them will be revealed.

I suspect I know the answer to this, but I may be wrong. I have been before that is for sure.

So think about this and let me know what you think. This may require some iteration before you get to where you want to be with regard to this issue.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

You are TRULY a WISE man.

I'll think about it. Your words have already helped me.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

JL,

You wrote:

Do you really want to be married to this man? He has some serious issues.

My answer to this is:
Everyone has damage and issues. I realize that his “issues” are just as complex as mine were, and until he’s ready to face them, there is nothing I can do but simply be there for him.

Do I want to marry THIS man?
YES, and this is why I believe so deeply in it:

When you marry someone, you are promising to LOVE that person, unconditionally. You aren’t choosing to be with that person for just the good times. It’s all or nothing. You are to accept the bad with the good, with your eyes wide open! I also believe that only through the commitment in marriage, can a person really begin to heal the damage that exists inside. This happens because you get so close to another human being that you can no longer hide and the conflict starts. The conflict is the path to healing. What I believe happens is that you project your inner demons onto the other person, and the ANGER, PAIN, and Frustration are all based from the fears that are buried so deep inside (Reflection). When the couple put the LOVE they feel for the other person first, and face the conflict open mindedly, the UNDERSTANDING of the pain starts to occur. That’s when real healing begins.

It took me a long time to get to this, but I feel in my heart that it’s another one of those “TRUTHS”

So WHY marry HIM?

He and I have reached that state of mind where the “conflict” overwhelmed us. Neither of us had the understanding that it took to be able to deal with all of this the way it needed to be dealt with. I’ve known this man for many years, and we both have done some pretty severe damage to each other. I can honestly say though, that we have grown and learned and benefited from being a part of each other’s life. What I feel is that there is no better person in the world for me to be with because he is the one person that knows me better than I know myself. Besides, we have a child together and this makes it all the more rewarding to try and recover.

Turning to someone new is not the answer. The exact same problems will eventually appear, because they exist internally. He and I have come way too far to simply give up when the true “test” of our Love for each other seems to be more than we can bear. That’s just another form of running away. Why do you think people always say that it is a “better” kind of Love after recovery? I think it’s because they are facing the deep demons, and really learning about themselves, trust, faith, and commitment.

I know that I may never get there with XBF, and I'm ready to accept this. I will be sad at the loss of the potential for obtaining the "REAL" love that we have the capabiltity to share. If I do find myself in a new relationship, this is what I want from it.

Does this make sense?

Next you wrote:

I suspect what you really want is for him to forgive you and release you from the bond. He does have power over you as well, that is what a relationship is really about no matter how it is structured.

I really do want his forgiveness. It hurts so bad to see him in pain. It hurts even worse to know that I am responsible for that pain. I don’t want the old relationship that we had any longer, but the BOND will always be there. It may take a different form, but once you LOVE and share with someone that intimately, it never completely fades.

What I want is that deeper bond that I described above. He has quite a bit of good in him, as I was reminded of in my dream about him two nights ago, and I want to see that return permanently. I realize that this may NEVER happen. He needs to be able to forgive. In order to do this, he has to work through his own demons. I have to accept that and in doing so I am freeing myself from the “hold” that his ANGER has on me.

Now the HARD STUFF:

You wrote:
Now, let me ask you a hypothetical question. Knowing what you know now, how would you have addressed the situation you were in before you left? Before and during your pregnancy? I mean this not from a helping him point of view but from your point of view.

If I knew what I know now, I never would have left. I would have been completely revealing about my pain and fears. I would have looked less to him for making me happy, and more to myself for the inner peace that I so desperately craved. I would have treasured all of the moments that I only briefly acknowledged, and I would have stopped working so I could dedicate more time to my children and family.

It’s easy to say that I would have left the relationship and raised the baby alone. That is what should have happened. The reality of that is that it is a hard choice to make, and the idea of raising two kids by myself was scary. Again, it’s all about facing your inner demons. Things go through your mind about night feedings, daycare, housing, and emotional support and when you don’t have someone to help, it can be very overwhelming. Other issues that arise are the “opinions” of people about being an unmarried single mother that are really hard to face. Doubts arise about whether someone would love a woman with two kids by two different men who was never married. There are a LOT of dynamics involved.

There is no easy solution to it, but if I was as strong as I wanted to be, I would have kept the child regardless of the fears and doubts. I would have told DAD to go F**k himself and made the best of it.

Two tings that nagged at me were that when I was a child my mother sold her body in order to provide for us kids. I thought about that quite a bit and I’m not sure if I could ever DO that for a child. It made me feel unworthy to know that I could be in that situation and that is SCARY.

The second is that when I was somewhat around DS’s age, my mother left us kids with DAD and took off on us. I’m sure she was gone for only a few weeks, but I remember the pain when she drove away all too clearly. Now my DS has the same memories of his mom. Strange how we repeat the mistakes of our parents.

This went much longer than I intended. Thanks for reading.

Kily,

I haven't had a chance to respond on the board for a few days. Glad I had the time now...

Your recent response was very touching. It sounds like you are learning a lot,and seeing everything in a new light.

One thing though, you talked about repeating the mistakes of our parents. I do agree. However, did your mother ever come to see the problem with her ways, as you have? Was it ever 'made up' to you? Please don't be so hard on yourself. It sounds like you, as a child, dealt with years of questionable parenting, and in your case as a mom you are just not the same. I recall many instances in my own childhood that were extremely unpleasant, but I certainly don't feel they were the main thing about my childhood. In other words, please don't be so hard on yourself.

Thanks for your response to me on my thread, I need to go back and reread all now and respond.

My thoughts are with you, Kily. I like too your insights into marriage.

Thinking of you,
H_P

Kily,

I don't have but a few minutes before I leave for a meeting. Your response made me recall something my mother used to always tell my sisters and I when we were acting up especially as teenagers.

"I will always love you, but I don't have to like you."

My point? To have a good marriage one must "like" as well as "love" their spouse. Frankly, I wonder if you did or could. I will come back and post more later. Just thought I would throw this in to give you something to think about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God Bless,

JL