Here is an e-mail I received from WW.

I just got home and read your email. I can't believe that you even think I am trying to get pregnant right now. I am not even close to that and whoever else thinks that you can all go to hell. I have a lot on my mind right now and the fact that you cancelled our mediation appointment and the fact that you never let the boys call me once while I was gone, even though I kept asking, makes me severely pissed off. How would you like it if you were in California and the boys were with me and I didn't let them talk to you? I can't even believe how childish you are being. And BTW, it is not the time right now to tell the boys about OM. I think that is a decision that I should make, and not you or you IC. And why didn't you tell me that our youngest has wet the bed? Did you make sure that he went pee before he went to bed? The boys don't have a problem when they stay with me. And I make sure that they are bathed and their teeth are brushed, something that apparently you dont do because the last time they were here they stunk and they hadn't brushed their teeth in days and their ears were disgusting!!!! If the boys need help we will get it for them. I realize that they have to work through this and YES, one day they will be okay. This is still new to them and I don't think now is the time to introduce anyone new into their life. And I found your wonderful website "marriage builders." I was going through my history and just out of curiosity thought I would look at it, and NO no one else told me about it. It is interesting the things that you tell these people. I guess you think of me as a bad mother huh? And they all do too. Nice people. They are all a little fricking crazy, and I am in no FOG!!!!! And forget about the plan A and plan B, there is NO PLAN. If you cancel the next mediation appointment that I make I will get an attorney of my own. I had this all arranged with work and now I have to rearrange it again. I guess you think that it is easy for me to do that? And NO you weren't supposed to have the kids tonight. It just so happens that I didn't get home until midnight and it was my regularly scheduled night. I don't think just Monday night is enough for me to have the boys. If you have a problem with that, OH WELL!!! They haven't been spending enough time here with me lately and they need to start since you will have to sell the house, I want this to feel like their home. I will pick them up today. I need to swap out the TV in their room for one of theirs in their room since it doesn't have the hookups for the nintendo. And do you have the extra nintendo 64 cord? The one that I have isn't working and I need to see if you have the other one.

Ok, well she spent the whole weekend, Thursday through Sunday night with OM. She was supposed to have them Friday night and be at their soccer games Saturday. She was with OM instead. They boyes never asked to call her. never aksed where she was either. She wants more time with them now becasue she has been with OM for 4 days. She wasn't supposed to have the boys Sunday night, but if she thought she would why would she make it that she got in at midnight. Again, to spend all the time she could with OM. Am I wrong here?
The boys do get baths and teeth cleaned. I have forgot about their ears, wow, someone call CSD.

So how does everyone feel being fricken crazy, lol.

Reading this actually make things easier for me to deal with.

HW

Oh, Obviously they read here together. Her history on her computer when she left was 1 day. So there is no way she could have looked at that.
She sent this e-mail to me at 12:31 am. She got home after midnight, when did she have time to read it all?

It's almost comical to me at this point. I'm sorry, but I actually have a smile on my face right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi HW,
I haven't posted to you in a while, but I worry about you.

From reading your posts, it feels like you spend a lot of time worrying about what your W is doing, and it feels like you think about her quite a bit. If you were to go back and read the whole saga of 2long you would see that when he quit worring about his W and OM and started working full time on him, he started to recover.

I would recommend to you at this point that you turn your thoughts inside and work on you. Please don't think I am saying that you are not doing a good job, or that I think you have problems, that is not what I am trying to say. There is a difference between maritial recovery and personal recovery. You may not be able to get maritial recovery but you control personal recovery.

I don't know if I am explaining this in a way that will help, I wish 2long would come and take this over. He could probably do a much better job.

I know that it has to hurt and that it is not right, but I also know that we often cannot change any of that. We often use way too much energy trying to cope with the bad feelings we have when we try to keep track of what WW is doing. That's why I worry about you. I worry that your health may begin to go down hill, and that you will spend emotional energy on her that you should spend on yourself and your children.
Right now, you're all you've got, and you need to take care of you.

I think 2long and I should gang up on you and get you to call Steve Harley. I still think it would help you proceed in a manner that would bring you a bigger measure of happiness.

I hope this made some sense to you, I do care, and I know it will never be an easy thing.

SS

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

hw:

Hm... So, she reads MB! That's great! Well, it doesn't seem so right now, but it will even2ally. Remember, this A of hers just took off, so even if it HAS seen the light of day, it could take a while 2 "run it's course."

As 2 her email 2 you:

"I just got home and read your email. I can't believe that you even think I am trying to get pregnant right now."

Did you say anything like this?

"I am not even close to that and whoever else thinks that you can all go to hell."

Well, I for one didn't "think that."

"I have a lot on my mind right now and the fact that you cancelled our mediation appointment and the fact that you never let the boys call me once while I was gone, even though I kept asking, makes me severely pissed off."

I suspect a lot more than your actions is behind her being tweaked. But this isn't unusual.

"How would you like it if you were in California and the boys were with me and I didn't let them talk to you? I can't even believe how childish you are being."

I'm no longer amazed at how childish fully grown adults can be. My WW has been childish in the past. So the hell have I! 8^) Hopefully, we can all grow up at some point.

"And BTW, it is not the time right now to tell the boys about OM. I think that is a decision that I should make, and not you or you IC."

How did she arrive at this conclusion? And why? 2 protect her fantasy?

"And why didn't you tell me that our youngest has wet the bed? Did you make sure that he went pee before he went to bed? The boys don't have a problem when they stay with me. And I make sure that they are bathed and their teeth are brushed, something that apparently you dont do because the last time they were here they stunk and they hadn't brushed their teeth in days and their ears were disgusting!!!!"

This is between you 2.

"If the boys need help we will get it for them."

Who does she mean by "we"? You and her? Good, then. Her and OM? Bad and unfair 2 you and your kids.

"I realize that they have to work through this and YES, one day they will be okay. This is still new to them and I don't think now is the time to introduce anyone new into their life."

Wait a gol darned minute, Mrs HW! If HW agrees with you, you should follow your own recommendation and get OM out of their life until you BOTH agree that introducing him 2 your family IS the right thing 2 do. That ain't bloody likely. HW, this is fog-latin. Purest form.

"And I found your wonderful website "marriage builders." I was going through my history and just out of curiosity thought I would look at it, and NO no one else told me about it. It is interesting the things that you tell these people."

This is very interesting and offers the best hope of all. I would like 2 see her post 2 the 4um for feedback.

"I guess you think of me as a bad mother huh? And they all do too. Nice people. They are all a little fricking crazy, and I am in no FOG!!!!!"

Well, this reaction 2 what's been said on your previous threads clearly indicates that she started reading while very much on the defensive. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY that I would have EVER thought of her as a bad mother. And yes, we are nice people, for the most part (though I know she was being sarcastic with that comment). A little crazy? Hell, I'm a LOT crazy! Just ask my friends! 8^). But Mrs HW is very, very definitely in the fog. People in the fog can't even see the fog.

"And forget about the plan A and plan B, there is NO PLAN."

This may be true. But it's up 2 you (and possibly her, if she'll participate). In my case, I've tried a lot of things, including plan A and plan B (though other therapists call these different things, most of them recommend similar "plans"). What's working best for me is probably closer 2 plan A than anything else on this website, but I don't think of it that way. It's very definitely a plan, though. A plan for ME 2 grow from my experiences and change the things I should change. What my W does or how she responds is entirely up 2 her. Do what you think is right, HW, and the W can/should do what she thinks is right. There are no "innocents" and no "victims" here.

"If you cancel the next mediation appointment that I make I will get an attorney of my own. I had this all arranged with work and now I have to rearrange it again. I guess you think that it is easy for me to do that?"

It might not be easy, but does HW have 2 participate in something he doesn't agree with, just because his W is burning every bridge in sight? I don't think so.

"And NO you weren't supposed to have the kids tonight. It just so happens that I didn't get home until midnight and it was my regularly scheduled night."

Sorry, Mrs HW. HW is NOT responsible for you getting home 2 late.

"I don't think just Monday night is enough for me to have the boys. If you have a problem with that, OH WELL!!!"

Now THAT's a solution!

"They haven't been spending enough time here with me lately and they need to start since you will have to sell the house, I want this to feel like their home."

Do you have/want 2 sell your house, HW? I don't know, that's why I ask. Your call.

"I will pick them up today. I need to swap out the TV in their room for one of theirs in their room since it doesn't have the hookups for the nintendo. And do you have the extra nintendo 64 cord? The one that I have isn't working and I need to see if you have the other one."

I'd go ahead and deal with the cord issue, but would ignore pretty much all else in her email.

HW. She's tweaked, and taking it out on you and... ...US!

Don't let her make this a contest of wills between you. If you have 2 try something like plan B 2 get this bickering 2 stop, by all means do so. Her A is only weeks old, right? That means that it's got months 2 go 2 run its course. Take your time, learn what you can, and just be loving 2 your kids.

I would love 2 see Mrs HW post here someday. I don't think she will, though, until she can get past this feeling that we're out 2 get her. I'd love 2 hear her side of the story.

BTW, I really didn't comment on the message which is what you asked for, I suppose I ought to do that.

When you get mesaages like that, there is really no use trying to analize them for valid content. You can communicate with her about anything that needs a reply but even things like the teeth brushing don't need a rebuttal. Just say something to the effect that you are sorry and will try and do better and leave it at that. Nothing else you say will make any diffdence anyway.

You already know that it is not rational to leave someone you are married to and start an affair with someone else. It is just plain wrong and also the stats show it won't work. ( I hope she doesn't read this and vow to make it work just to show us that we are wrong, I care about her happiness also, and that is a sure road to unhappiness.)

So, my point is that you can't really reason with someone that would do this - until they realize they are going the wrong direction and ask for help. That's why I said what I did about working on you, there is not a whole lot you can do for her right now.

SS

SS:

I hope I can live up 2 your high praise of me!! Thanks.

HW. SS is right. You need a truly energetic, effective counselor right NOW. SH is the best I've talked 2, and I've talked 2 four different counselors 2 date. SH is the most expensive, but his efficiency at getting 2 the point should more than pay for the higher fee. You will be amazed at how insightful he will be.

All my best 2 you and your family,

Still Seeking, I have been trying to forget about her. I have told her not to call me or to see me. I have only e-mailed her when there is a question regarding the kids. I did make a mistake in e-mailing her last night. Not sure why I did, but we all make mistakes. I am trying to better myself and let her go. It's only been a month or so, I'm getting better at it everyday. I know I have a long way to go. But, I'll get there.

2Long, I did e-mail her about her getting pregnant. It was a mistake. Her sister told me she thought she wuld try to do that to bring that family back or to try and keep OM. I just e-mailed her and said if she does want to do that, that is between her and OM, but just to think what it will do to the kids. I was very pleasant in the e-mail. I have to learn to not respond to her anymore.

Thanks to both of you. I did tell her in my response to this e-mail, I did about the boys visitation, that her and OM should post their side of the story, if what they are doing is so right.

HW

SS, I am really not trying to do anything for her right now. I would be happy not to talk or to see her at all. But I can't have it my way. I truly am working on myself and not trying to worry about what she is doing. I've learned a lot already.
Thanks again for the replies.

2Long, I do have a counseling appointment tonight. He is a very good christian counselor. I have been trying to work on myself with him and not this ongoing situation. I will talk with him more about it tonight. I may indeed make an appointment with SH. As always, thanks for your comments.

HW

HW:

"Still Seeking, I have been trying to forget about her."

I don't think any of us would advise you 2 forget about her. Just ignore the negative comments that you can't do anything about and that draw you in2 senseless arguments. I would advise that you DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN 2 cultivate the POSITIVE things she says or does, however infrequent they might seem 2 be. She's still your W, she's still a person, and she deserves 2 be as happy as she'll let you help her be.

"I have told her not to call me or to see me."

This is your choice.

"I have only e-mailed her when there is a question regarding the kids."

It would be okay if that is all you've done, but...

"I did make a mistake in e-mailing her last night. Not sure why I did, but we all make mistakes."

Yep. And we're all human, 2.

"I am trying to better myself and let her go."

Just be certain of how/why you're doing this. Letting her go doesn't necessarily mean not communicating or even not being M'd 2 her. It means loosening the grip she perceives you 2 have on her (for whatever reason, right or wrong).

"It's only been a month or so, I'm getting better at it everyday. I know I have a long way to go. But, I'll get there."

Yes, you will. And Mrs HW will, 2, particularly with your help or that of a good C.

"2Long, I did e-mail her about her getting pregnant. It was a mistake."

Boy, I'll say!!

"Her sister told me she thought she wuld try to do that to bring that family back or to try and keep OM."

Try not 2 talk about stuff like this 2 your W. You might inadvertently push her 2 do something thoughtless.

"I just e-mailed her and said if she does want to do that, that is between her and OM, but just to think what it will do to the kids."

Yep, that was a mistake.

"I was very pleasant in the e-mail."

But the message wasn't pleasant.

"I have to learn to not respond to her anymore."

No, you have 2 learn not 2 REACT 2 her anymore. RESPOND away!!

"Thanks to both of you. I did tell her in my response to this e-mail, I did about the boys visitation, that her and OM should post their side of the story, if what they are doing is so right. "

I would leave it at that, then. Let them decide whether they want 2 post 2 this 4um on their own, now. I doubt they will, but you never know. It won't be the first time, and the results can often be productive.

Again, all my best 2 you, your W, and your kids,

Again, don't think I am trying to say you are doing a bad job, just trying to give suggestions that may help. I worry about you when you are in this kind of pain.
SS

Have to agree with others, most of her email is not worth responding to. I do NOT know your situation except for what is posted here...but I would offer one bit of advice that she addressed in her email.

Doesn't matter if the children ask to call her or not...make sure that they do call her or that they are available for her to call them. This is for their benefit, not hers, not yours. Their need MUST come before either of yours. jmho (Did she even try to call them while she was gone? Or does she expect you to make sure that they call? The phone does work both ways, and if she didn't call...then it is her fault that she didn't talk to the children. If she did call and you made it difficult/impossible to talk to them, then you are at fault.)

Go to mediation...if for no other reason then to discover what she wants, doesn't want and where you stand. While mediation can work, I tend to believe that whatever you pay a lawyer to protect your rights and the rights of your children is money well spent...and will save you in the long run from emotional and finically mistakes.

Thanks again 2Long.

SS, I know actions are louder than words. I know that by me e-mailing and so on it shows me in pain. But, for some reason, I don't feel anything like I did for the first couple of weeks. To be honest the thought of her with him really doesn't enter my mind all that much. I suppose I am just suppressing it, but I am eating really good, exercising, getting a lot of sleep. Not sure what that means, but that is what is happening. Thank you for your care and thought. it means al lot to me. I know I have a lot of friends out there for me. That helps so much.

HW

Just a wifey 2002, She did try to call. Each time though the boys were not around and I did not have my phone with me. She left a couple of messages. If the boys would have asked to call her I would have let them in a second. They never asked. I left a message at her house, that if she called I would have the boys answer the phone. I know she had a layover somewhere, she could have called then, but I am sure she was probably talking to OM. I did not make it difficult for them to talk to her.
I understand what it is you are saying, but I cannot also bend over backwards to hand her her cake while she is eating it too. Sorry, just the way I feel. I didn't feel as though I used the kids against her. Again if they asked I would have let them in a second. They never asked and she never called when I was around the phone.

HW

HW --

We of course are only hearing one side of this e-mail exchange. I suspect that yours must have set her off.

You "pleasantly" asked if she were planning to get pregnant??????? Oh please.

And wanted her to think about what that might do to your kids....can you say "LB"?? Trying to educate her and a disrespectful judgement all in one.

I'm not ready to judge what she had to say, because I think half the story behind it is missing.

Good Luck.

HW.

E-mail her again and I'm going to get my virtual 2x4 to whack you over the head with it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I couldn't help but contain a chuckle or two when your WW used the term childish and frickin crazy to refer to you and us here at MB. Oh well, it's like Joe Walsh's title album from the early seventies 'you can't argue with a sick mind'.

2Long.

Hey salad guy (now there's a user name if I ever saw one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )there's no need to 'talk' to his WW and OM as though she and OM are reading HW's thread, because they no longer know that HW has changed his user name.

Hey how's this for a name for your salad 'Ol Doc 2Long's Plan A' and underneath the title 'one or two servings recommended to end affairs, cure rat bites from OP, and maintain regularity.' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM, I'm still wincing about that virtual 2x4. LOL, But, I deserve it.
I would like some of that salad 2Long has too. I like the name, hehehe.

HW

Just curious -- why didn't you post YOUR e-mail to her? So that we could see both sides to this?

Lexxxy:

Now THAT's an interesting 2uestion!

Care 2 comment, HW?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here you go Lexxxy, I was wondering when you would pop up. Flame away.

During my last counseling appointment with my IC he discussed with me talking to the boys about your relationship with OM. I was dead fast against it, but he told me we wouldhave to deal with it sooner or later. And, he didn't think it would be a good idea just to pop OM into the picture. Since your relationship with OM is progressing and our marriage to you is obviously very much over, I think it may be getting very close to the time where we need to discuss this with them. I told my IC, that you said it is up to you when you introduce him to the boys, but he said since I am their father I do have a say in it and I should prepare them for having another man in their mom's life. I told him I would always be their father, he said he understood but that they would see it as their mom getting a new dad. I'm not concerned at this point in who you see, but I am concerned, very much, for our boys well being. Our youngest has already wet the bed on 2 occasions now. Something my IC said might start happening and too watch for.
Anyhow, I will be discussing whether or not we should talk to our boys and tell them the truth about what is going on. We cannot hide it from them for very long. They are smarter than you think. I by no means want to or will ever tell them anything derogatory about you. If he tells me we need to tell them, then we will have to tell them together. He said before that if you refuse at some point to want to tell them together that I need to do it myself. If that day comes I firmly believe we both should tell them and let them deal with thier emotions now instead of later. If I have learned anything in the last month, I cannot try and shield them from this. It will only prolong them dealing with it. They need to go through it in order to fully heal themselves. I know you have convinced yourself that they will be "fine." I am sure one day they will, but they will still have to deal with it eventually.
Our oldest told me he feels he is the only one in his class that has parents that don't live together. We had a long talk about it and he understands a little better now.
I will let you know what he tells me.
One other thing. In your last e-mail you said to me that you hope I find happiness. That is something else I have learned in the last month or so. If I look to other people for happiness I will be looking forever. I realize that the only happiness you can "find" is happiness within yourself. Once you find that happiness you share it with loved ones and those around you. It then becomes contagious to all those around you. I do have some happiness within me. Right now I am sharing that with our boys and they are really enjoying it. One day when I feel our boys are ready for their father to have another woman in their life and when I fell I am ready to have someone else in my life, I will share that happiness with our boys and someone special. I know that day is a long way off for me. Not because of my need to "get over" you but because I need to wait and see what it is I want in life and not just jump to another person. And, I am ok with that. I have a lot of self dicsovery ahead. I actually can't wait to learn and be a better person and father. I have learned so much already.
Well, I'm sure you didn't care to read all of this, but was just typing and couldn't stop. You can stop rolling your eyes, lol.

HW

p.s. There are those who think you will get pregnant soon with OM to keep him and there are those who think you will try to get pregnant to try and bring your family back, even though they aren't gone. If you do decide to get pregnant, and if that is something you both want then I am happy for you, but please do it for the right reasons. I am not lecturing you, but please think how it will affect your boys. I am actually already getting prepared for it, because I have a feeling you may be trying to already. But it isn't any of my business except how it will affect our boys.

I only started to write the first paragraph, the rest just came out.

HW

Also, on my way to counseling appointment today WW called to tell ask me how I could do this to her. How could I let her friends and her family be agsinst her. She wanted to know if I understood how badly she has been hurt by what *I* have done to her !!!! She said she cried to work and cried at work today. She says that I have turned all of her friends and her family against her.
I said nothing except that I could not and would not comment on that. I would not get drawn into this agrument. Since I wouldn't talk about it she said F*** Y** and hung up.

Luckily I went to counseling and was told the same thing everyone here has told me. I have not turned her family and friends against her. How could I? She has done this to herself and is blaming me for it all.
Lexxxy, I guess I need to take responsibility for that too? You know what, if thats the way it has to be then I will take FULL responsibilty for all of this. Yeah, I kidnapped her, dragged her on a plane, found out where OM lives, drug her to his bed, forced her legs open and made him have his way with HER!!!!!!!

HW