Wen and MOWL.

I've copied and pasted my response 2 your posts in Zoey's thread here. I'll now go back and delete my response on Zoey's thread.

Best regards,
-2long

Wen, MOWL:

This is great that I can talk 2 both of you! It's also great 2 hear, in real time, both viewpoints on your sitch. I will do my best 2 make NO judgements, but I have some comments on both of your posts:

Wen:

"As far as reconciliation, how can you reconcile when we are BOTH living with Other People?"

Well, the simple black and white answer is that you can't. You both need 2 take a leap of faith and STOP living with OP, if you want 2 work on restoring your M. Does that help?

"Yeah, we say we care about them..but we know that it hurts each other more than anything."

Them, meaning the OP? I assume so. It IS possible 2 care about someone and not be with them. In a case like this, it would also be the most loving thing you could do for them.

"Both of us waiting for the other to make a move....we have little to no trust for one another."

And that's why the "move" should be 2 BOTH of you living alone for a while. No OP. No moving in 2gether 2 soon.

"Right now, I feel like we cant talk about anything.
I have a way of viewing things as black or white... bpd."

I do 2. I wonder if I'm bipolar?

"MOWL knows this, yet hides in the "gray" areas...knowing that it only confuses me and causes me to freak...
Is that love?"

Not at all, if he's USING it 2 confuse you. That would be abuse.

"Hey MOWL, if we were the only two people on earth, would you get along with me then?"

I notice that he didn't answer this question.

"The details are just taht... details. What about concept? The Main "jist" of the event? Hey, dont get bogged down in details...they cause you to lose focus."

I agree 100%.

"My problem....I wanted MOWL to be there for me. To listen to me (whether he understood my gibberish or not). To think of me first.
To love me.
Somewhere over the years, I became a blurr.
Have you regained your sight MOWL?"

This could very easily have come from my W!!! Wen, I hope you take some "comfort" in knowing that this very problem is behind MOST As that I've ever read about. It's so common it's sickening (or at least disheartening). I hope that I'm regaining my sight, but my W is still in contact with her OM, so we're not completely out of the woods. But I feel that the REAL progress started (about 3 months ago) when I started 2 realize MY contribution 2 the deterioration of our M over the years. My W has been responding because my awareness has increased the "safety" of being with me.

"I have a crossroads ahead of me, and I need to know if I should slow down or blow right thru it."

I hope you'll slow down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MOWL:

"Thank you for your thoughtful reply."

You're welcome.

"First of all I think Wen and I are both Alpha whatevers. We are both stubborn."

Many people fit that description!

""Don't whack me upside the head with a 2X4 unless it is going to lead to a net gain."
I said this because Wen and I are not together and to me right now opening up those wounds is pointless."

Opening wounds, if that's what happens when you talk, will always be pointless. Best not 2.

"When the OM's in our lives are out of the picture and both Wen and I are working towards something then wail away. Add some nails for that little extra kick."

Heck, I'll put as many nails and even a few explosive bolts in that 2x4 as I want, when I want!! Look, one of the reasons you need whacking upside the head (both of you) is precisely because your OP are STILL in the picture. Why is that, if you truly want 2 reconcile? We're not talking "Wen = WS and MOWL = BS" here. You're both BOTH.

"Wen,
Unfortunately I am a grey person. Everybody is a grey person. Both good and bad. I'd like to keep the good and work on the bad, but there will always be some bad."

Shakespeare once said "There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so." Indeed, goodness is a relative thing. Depends very much on your perspective how you perceive the impact on your own life.

"I will not change my opinion just to please you or accept being wrongly accussed."

You shouldn't. But if you want 2 be with Wen, you have a responsibility 2 clarify your opinion 2 her satisfaction. And frankly, if it's wrong and you can be shown that it is, then you should be willing 2 change it. I'm not sure what you mean about being wrongly accused. Of what? What might you think makes Wen accuse you of things that you feel are unjust?

""My problem....I wanted MOWL to be there for me. To listen to me (whether he understood my gibberish or not). To think of me first.
To love me.
Somewhere over the years, I became a blurr.
Have you regained your sight MOWL?"
Change MOWL to Wen."

...and then answer the questions! Don't make this an argument or a pissing contest (I've heard some girls can WIN those, by the way!). These were very good questions. At least they seem that way 2 me NOW. 9 months ago, I probably would have reacted similarly 2 you - I would have said something like "Huh? I've loved you all this time, and you had an A? How come your "needs" are important at all?"

"We seem to have pretty much the same feelings although Wen's are much stronger."

I don't know whether her feelings are stronger or not. Don't know whether that means anything here. The real question is, do you 2 want 2 work on bettering yourselves and maybe rebuilding your marriage, or would you rather skip the growth process and perpetuate your fantasies with your OP? It's your call.

I don't wish to do this. I'm tired of the fighting, the hurt and the pain.

I don't see this helping Wen or myself.

Wen's questions are a test requiring the correct answers. The truth does not matter. If I answer them correctly she will change the question. If I answer them honestly I am wrong.

We are no where near reconciliation.

I will take 50% of the responsibilty. No more, no less.

MOWL:

"I don't wish to do this. I'm tired of the fighting, the hurt and the pain."

So don't fight, hurt, and try not 2 take anything personally!

"I don't see this helping Wen or myself."

Fighting won't. Hurting won't. Talking MIGHT.

"Wen's questions are a test requiring the correct answers. The truth does not matter. If I answer them correctly she will change the question. If I answer them honestly I am wrong."

Why are you so judgemental? I doubt it's true that the truth doesn't matter 2 Wen. Maybe she's 2 hurt 2 see this truth? And so she lashes back? I don't know, but it certainly happened in my own si2ation, and in most I read about on this 4um. You 2 have a unique opportunity here - 2 converse with referees that are interested in your recovery, of your M perhaps, but certainly your self-esteem. Don't just give up.

"We are no where near reconciliation."

I would agree. What 2 do? Give up? Not a solution. Hash your differences out on the 4um? Perhaps not the best way (with an MC would be better). But at least talking through the 4um might help keep you from arguing with each other in person and you might get some wise advice from the "old-timers" here (and then, after you've recovered your M or your self-esteem has been restored, YOU can give advice 2 newbies!).

"I will take 50% of the responsibilty. No more, no less."

Do I hear "51.3333%?" Look, MOWL, I've heard you say you'll accept responsibility, but you BOTH need 2 demonstrate your willingness 2 do this through ACTIONS, not words (which aren't all that convincing at this point).

All my best,

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

Wen:

"Someone once said that we were like Fred and Wilma....
someone else said we were like John Wayne and Maureen Ohara"

I was ac2ally thinking of the Bickersons, myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"We are at a stale mate.
100% honesty.
Yeah."

This won't come overnight. It won't come at all if you both don't stop and recognize that you're both actively hindering it.

"That's because everything is silence."

And I'm all for communication.

"Willing to take 50%.
Which 50%? who cares."

It really isn't all that important.

"MOWL wants to "talk" about it...but runs when I ask a question.
He loves me...but scared to get close to me."

I can understand this, ac2ally. I still have a small problem with this. In what way, you ask? (okay, you DIDN'T ask, but I'm going 2 answer anyway!). We're all pretty fragile, lonely creatures, I believe. When we can share our innermost feelings, fears, and strengths with our spouses, our lives are enriched. When we can't, for whatever reason, our spouses can't share themselves with us. This negative feedback cycle perpe2ates itself and our Ms go in2 a tailspin, leaving nothing but a smoking hole in the ground if we don't get it under control and FAST. Throw an A in2 the mix, and you increase the diameter of the impact crater. Throw 2 As in the mix, and... ...well, the metaphor gets out of control itself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There's no solution but 2 take control of the downward spiral NOW. Accept blame, clean toilet bowls, do whatever it takes 2 change the focus from the bickering 2 the positive things about your R with one another.

"I want a life with love."

And you both deserve this. But it will take both of you 2 create it. You can't get love if you don't give it. And you can't expect it even if you do. You have 2 take a leap of faith here in each other.

"I want a life with happiness."

You both deserve this as well. But just like love, you can't get it from others without radiating happiness and contentment with yourself. Other people don't make you happy, as you've both probably found out with your As.

"I want to be able to talk with you ... MOWL...not at you."

This ability will take time. But if you both want it, and you can get past the resentment, you can both achieve it.

MOWL,

I seem to recall a bit of your story. Just a bit.

All I really want to say is that you are divorced. You have someone else in your life. Right or wrong, you still have that person in your life.

What you are doing by having ANY contact with your ex is just wrong. You are in a relationship with another. STOP! By having all this contact with the ex, talking about reconcilliation...ALL this is no better than what the ex did to you! STOP! Make a decision as to what you want then do it. If that includes the ex, then you need to do what is right with your current relationship partner. She DOES NOT deserve what you are doing now. STOP! Have you learned nothing?

Luck to you.

jd

JDMAC1:

Wow. As I was reading this post I was thinking just that! They are divorced already and each of them has a new partner that they live with. I know that they are XH and XW but still, all this extraneous contact with each other is equal to each of them "cheating" on their respective current-day partners, doesn't it? I mean, do each of the OPs in their lives know that they are trying to reconcile? This isn't trying to save a marriage at this point, it is trying to rekindle an old relationship. Perhaps methinks that each is not in the best or most likeable situation so going back to what is familiar actually seems to appear to be a better option than where they are now. I know this feeling. After I and my 1st XW had some disappointing experiences after we divorced, we actually started to become enamored with each other once again, but it was a temporary feeling, just like infatuation and fantasy, and we both realized that in reality we were no different than we were before and we still had the same basic differences in values and other personality qualities that would ultimately lead us back to parting once again. Glad I missed that experience. So I agree with JDMAC1, even though 2long is offering up some solid advice. Ultimately, they each need to focus on their respective relationships with their current partners and resolve those issues first. If either of them decides to leave their current situation, they should do so based solely on the merits (or lack thereof) of the relationship that they wish to dissolve (if that is what either wishes to do). No safety net. No promises from the XH or XW. Live alone for awhile. Don't throw yourselves back together; it's a train wreck waiting to happen. I see this as 2 kids standing on the edge of a pool on a hot day. Each wants to enjoy the refreshing cool water, but each wants the other to go in first. Then they agree to jump in together, but they still playfully try to "fake out" the other person to see if they will jump in first anyway!

Basically, IMHO, it breaks down to this:
Finish the business at-hand first (your current OPs), then, if you are both willing, start to see if there is any reconciliation in the future for both of you. Good luck to all.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Well ladies and gentlemen. I will probably be doing what I need to do on my own.

Wen will end up with the OM and I will be alone for the time being.

I asked when the following questions in an email today, but she has not replied.

What's up with you and the OM's relationship?
Does he know we've been talking?
Does he think the trouble between you two is just about the kids?
Do you want your relationship with the OM to work?
If you move out will you still have contact with him?

I know almost nothing about what her intentions with the OM were/are. Is it coming to an end and does she want to come back just because she sees no other choice?

Wen and I are emailing each other. We'll see how it goes. I'm having a very hard time with this. One way or the other someone I care about is going to get hurt.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

Wen:

"Happiness is from within, and I have finally figured out that I am a really cool person. I dont "need" someone else in my life."

Heck, any one of us could have told both of you that a long time ago, but you were behaving like gooves (that's plural of 'goof') at the time!

All my best. You've both got a lot of work 2 do, but I think you can do it!

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

Thanks Wen. You 2 deserve it!

<small>[ October 24, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Wen ]</small>

Wen, that is great news! I find that when I see both marriage partners working MB it's even more important to me when I see things going well. It's amazing to know that it's possible to come to care about people I meet here. Blessings CSue

Thanks Wen. I wish you could tell me I've done something right or good in person. It would mean so much to me.

Hang in there Wen. We have a long way to go and we are just getting started.

One really bad thing about knowing the OM as well as I do is seeing the OM's influence in Wen. Whether it is clothes, music, a way of speaking, etc. I can sense the OM in her. That is very disconcerting.

This is going to take so long to work through. I'm hurting right now thinking about the things Wen and I have done together that she has been doing with the OM. So many things ruined for me.

How do you ever recover?

MOWL,

Might I inquire as to the status of your other relationship? I ask only because I read a response from her in another thread. Curious as to where she is in all this now.

jd