If I were driving drunk, and I struck another car and seriously injured the driver, I would be beside myself with guilt. I would try my best to make it up to him for my "mistake." I would live with the pain of hurting another for the rest of my life.

Why, then, does the OP have such a difficult time owning up to the hurt they have caused?

My wife had two affairs many years ago. After the end of each, I confronted the OM. In both cases, there seemed to be no shred of concern for me nor for the pain my wife and I felt.

In the first case, the OM was a "best friend." He repeatedly told me, "I am not at all sorry for this."

In the second case, I told the OM of the incredible pain he caused. My wife (who has "issues") was suicidally depressed for guilt after the end of this affair. I told OM2 I was trying my best to forgive him. His response? "I'm a born-again Christian. I don't need your forgiveness. My savior forgives me." I'm no authority on Christianity, but I think being a born-again Christian doesn't entitle you to a "Get Out of Jail Free" card that allows you to act with impunity.

So why the lack of remorse of these two? I think it may be typical, but it doesn't make sense. I hate the fact that they walked away from the destruction unscathed by remorse. It doesn't seem fair.

Just my two cents worth, How can you feel guilty, when you don't have any character or morality. See decent people feel sorry and change, immoral people don't, they lie

QM,
I agree with you

Im a FWS. I can tell you in my case when it was all said and done I was remorse city. The OM in my case was also remorse city. We understood what we did was totally wrong. There was a NC letter sent by me to the OM and end of story.

It depends on the person (s) that you are dealing with.

I consider myself a person of strong faith. I lost that faith when I was in a dark world and out of control in the A. When I regained my senses and faced reality, I found my faith I lost. I did not then nor do I now use my faith as a cover up or justification for anything.

I would be rather annoyed if I was in your shoes and the OP spit those words out at me about being a Christian and that he doesn't need your forgivness and all that. Unfortunatly many people abuse "GOD" and "FAITH" and use it to suit their needs when its convienient for them. I hate to sound judgemental but I have come across lots of hypocrites in my short time on earth.

I'm not sure it about lack of character or morality. Lots of good people make really bad mistakes in life. It's not up to you to worry about how THEY deal with their mistakes. Just be worried about yourself and your wife.

Now with that said, don't worry about the lack of remorse or concern for your needs or your wife's needs that these OP have or don't have. Its not for you to be worried about. You worry about yourself and your wife. They will be dealt with in due time but that is not for you to worry about. I would focus my energy on other important matters if I was you, like YOU and your WIFE.

Stressing out over what other people feel and how they are acting and because they are not showing you remorse is a total waste of time. You don't know that perhaps at night when they are alone, they are very remorseful and very sorry but perhaps too much self pride won't let them show YOU that they feel the way they do.

I hope you think about this and focus your attention where it would be better suited, on yourself and your wife. Don't waste precious time worrying about OP that are no longer in your life.

Keep worrying about them and how they act and you are keeping the affairs alive.

Has your wife done a NC (no contact) with these OP? If so, then its best you adhere to that NC policy too. I don't see how talking to the OM/OP ever amounts to anything other than adding more pain to an already ugly ordeal.

I wish you well. Sorry to be blunt but I feel sad when I see someone focusing so much on someone that should not even matter to them any longer.

Zoey

<small>[ October 24, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Zoey ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just my two cents worth, How can you feel guilty, when you don't have any character or morality. See decent people feel sorry and change, immoral people don't, they lie </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just my 2 cents here.......

To say that the OM is immoral and has no character is to also say that every OM, OW, OP, WW and WH have no morals and no character.

To also say that they aren't decent people is also saying that our WS's aren't decent either.

That being the case.....then why are all of us at MB in the first place? Why are we fighting to keep our immoral, undecent and without character spouses?

Sometimes the BS needs to remember that the OM or OW isn't the only one at fault. Our spouses have just as much to do with it....if not more.

Now....to the point of this post.

I am of the opinion that the reason that the OP doesn't feel remorse is because of this.....
The OP has nothing to do with the MM or MW's family or friends in most cases.....they don't know them.....don't associate with them. They make them none of their business. Now.....in order to feel remorse in most cases you have to care for those that are hurt. If the OP doesn't know you...and makes YOU none of their business.....then they don't care. Kind of like....out of sight out of mind.

On the other hand.....some people just don't care at all.....about anything or anyone other than themselves.

Now......as far as your W is concerned. She may actually feel remorse......but as we all know....sometimes it's just better to act like it isn't there so you don't have to deal with it. Some WS's are even known to actually be remorseful but swear they aren't.....so as not to deal with it.....again.....out of sight....out of mind.

First of all, I will not criticize you for your interest in the OP, what makes them tick, etc. I too have been where you are, and from time to time go back there. It's part of healing I believe. I've got to run an errand, so I'll finish my thoughts on your post later. But don't feel bad or guilty for thinking about the OP. In time you will move past them, some of us just fight it a little longer than others for one reason or another.

Keep in mind, OM1 was my best friend. Of course, I was surprised by him not regretting a thing. Some friend, huh?

I can accept the fact that OM2 didn't care about me, but how about the hurt he caused my wife? He walked away from that, too.

I understand it's not a good thing to dwell on the OP, but good did come out of speaking with OM2. I stopped comparing myself to him. I wouldn't want to be such an arrogant, sanctimonious, hypocrite for a million bucks.

OK, here's my experience with the OW. She apologized to H right after he broke it off. When this did not result in a "making up session" she apologized again a couple of days later. Said she was just "lonely" and it never should have happened. When this did not result in the aforementioned session, she quit apologizing. Since then her only references regarding this topic were when she asked my H why I didn't like her. When he shrugged his shoulders, she said, "I've never done anything to her." Then later in the same conversation she stated that she had never done anything to hurt our marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Sometimes I think people just don't have a clue!!

In my situation, my OW involves herself in these types of situations all of the time. She's a repeat offender. I truly believe that she thinks life is a soap opera. That the way she acts is the norm. She even convinced my H at one point in the A that I probably behaved like she did and he was because it was so "normal/natural." For the record, my H did not have sex with her although they did kiss on 2-3 occasions. He broke it off when she pushed for sex. So to her, he's probably just a bump in the road in comparison to some of the A's she's been involved in. He was just a "high school game" in comparison to some of her more exciting conquests.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by QuestionMark:
<strong>but how about the hurt he caused my wife? He walked away from that, too.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me first say that i'm an xOW. My question is this. How about the pain your W caused herself?

Over and over I read on these boards how there is little of no empathy for the OP and I can understand that. Over and over I read "the OP chose this situation" I agree with that too. At the same time, so did the WS.

So why should the OP feel bad for you or the WS when SHE choose the situation.

We take calcualted risks EVERYDAY. As a single person I had nothing to lose by dating a MM. Our EMA lasted for 10 years and ended in July 2001. I still can't bring myself to regret it, but i'm sorry for the pain that it caused his family.

At the same time I feel like that's a choice that HE made. When it began to hurt for me, I left. That's the decision that I made. He chose differently.

Ps. I ended it. Told his W and cut off all contact. He STILL calls my house and hangs up.

I've talked with the OC (as in Other Creature because I do not consider him a man) and he is not worth my time. Yes, I would ENJOY seeing him eaten alive with remorse, but I have to leave that to god and himself. My concern needs to be myself and maybe one day my XW (she is still with him).

Something to remember is the OP probably does feel remorse, but they can not show it because then everyone else will know they did something wrong too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>We take calcualted risks EVERYDAY. As a single person I had nothing to lose by dating a MM. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing to lose? How about your self respect?

<small>[ October 24, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

I don't wanna start a flame war or anything over here and I really don't expect MB's to get it.

But I don't regret what happened between MM and I. It's done now and that is as it should be. I agree that it's unfair. I ended things, cried for a while and they found a nice SG to share my life with.

In terms of fairness the BS gets SCREWED BIG, BIG, BIG time in all of this. THAT's unfair. No 2 ways about it. But in these situations there's NO WAY that somebody's not going to get hurt.

On OP boards you see over and over OP crying about how me jsut went back to his regular life and the OP is left in so much pain.

Bottom line - no matter how it all shakes out, somebody's going to be devastated. It's only a matter of who.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
<strong>[QUOTE]Nothing to lose? How about your self respect?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I NEVER felt like what I did was wrong, so the self respect issue was not even an issue for me.

I don't what that to sound like a taunt. I'm just trying to offer another prospective. If I could not look myself in the mirror I don't think I would have done it.

In my mind, my love for him, and his for me, justified my actions. I was 21 when this all began. I'm 32 now. It's been a long process. But honest to God I felt that I loved this man and that our union was blessed.

IMO his marriage was a matter of convenience.

<small>[ October 24, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by QuestionMark:
<strong>If I were driving drunk, and I struck another car and seriously injured the driver, I would be beside myself with guilt. I would try my best to make it up to him for my "mistake." I would live with the pain of hurting another for the rest of my life.

Why, then, does the OP have such a difficult time owning up to the hurt they have caused?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure there are some that do. But it's true that many of them don't. My husband's OW told me that the only thing she was sorry for was that she ended up getting hurt. She also told me that she was glad that I was in so much pain.
One of my friends was an OW and she pursued the guy relentlessly. She had met his wife before and was of course very nice to her to her face. When I asked her how she could justify her actions she said "She's nothing to me. That's his problem." When I asked how she would feel if the situation were reversed she said "Well, it's not. So I don't care. Sucks to be her I guess." Needless to say this person is no longer a friend of mine.

Katie does offer an interesting insight into the nature of As. The participants lie to each other, lie to themselves, and justify in any manner possible. They do whatever is necessary for them to feel like they deserve to be involved in an A even though it is WRONG. Maybe that's why so many OW and even many WS aren't remorseful. They've conned themselves into believing the lie that because it "felt good" or "felt right" it must have been. Does that mean they have NO moral character? No, it's more situational ethics to them. The situation is so necessary to their ego, whatever, that it is justified. Therefore when it's over, the same reasons still justify it.

To feel remorseful would mean that all of those good/right feelings were really wrong. (which they were!)

<small>[ October 24, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: jamup ]</small>

Why expect remorse from a selfish person? Why try and figure out the mind of another? It's a relentless pursuit and it doesn't resolve anything (except a curiosity).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jamup:
<strong> Does that mean they have NO moral character? No, it's more situational ethics to them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's the nail on the head. My WH tried desperately to justify his actions, grasping at any straw possible, no matter how ridiculous. In his case he was never quite successful in justifying it to himself and, in the end, felt great remorse. That remorse was key to me to making the marriage work. If he hadn't been remorseful I couldn't have stayed.
From what I've seen, married OP who stay in their respective marriages after the A tend to be a lot more remorseful than single OP. Our xOW thought she hit the jackpot with my H and she wasn't going to give that up without a fight. She was far too concerned with losing the life to which she wanted to become accustomed to worry about the ripple effect consequences on anyone else. She had nothing to lose except hurt feelings, everything to gain. When she whined to me "He broke my heart.." I said "What about his wife's heart? What about his new baby? What about his mother? The rest of his family? My family?.." I could tell that no one else had ever occurred to her before. Then she said "I don't have to listen to this from you!" and hung up. She was the one who called me lol.
It's funny you mention "situational ethics". I remember seeing an OW on another board crying about how shocked she was that her MM was lying to her. She said "I knew he lied to his wife, but he had to that. I figured it was situational lying and he wouldn't do it to me." Why the heck not lol?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
I NEVER felt like what I did was wrong, so the self respect issue was not even an issue for me.

I don't what that to sound like a taunt. I'm just trying to offer another prospective. If I could not look myself in the mirror I don't think I would have done it.

In my mind, my love for him, and his for me, justified my actions. I was 21 when this all began. I'm 32 now. It's been a long process. But honest to God I felt that I loved this man and that our union was blessed.

IMO his marriage was a matter of convenience.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some people may disagree with me on this, but I don't fault an OP for falling in love with a MP. You can't control who you love. But, you can control how you handle it. I don't care who you fall for, or what the circumstances are, it's wrong to pursue a MM/MW. If the marriage is bad, or is just one of convienience, it will break up of it's own accord. But to interfere with a promise made before god is just plain wrong. And from a practical standpoint, if a MP is willing to break up one marriage to be with you, what makes you think they won't do it again, this time with you being the one who gets hurt? If you show no respect for the sanctity of someone elses marriage, why would anyone show respect for your marriage?
Michael

Michael,
I'll tell you this. In time my motives became 100% selfish. In the beginning I "loved him" and felt that we were "meant to be."

As I matured I was in it for what I could get. He claimed to "adore me" and gave me that world materially speaking. I dated other people, and did as I pleased just as any single person would. I knew that I could always fall back on him, but counted on him for nothing.

After 8 or 9 years he told me flat out "i'm not leaving my wife." That was fine with me because there is NO WAY that i'd marry a man like him.

I never felt that I was interefing with his marriage. He pursued me. The whole thing blew wide open for me when he said "I want to make a life with you." He laid out what was supposed to be this fairy tale life for me and I told him "no"! In no uncertain terms NO!

It's VERY false to assume that all OP want marriage or a more committed relationship. In time I DID NOT want to replace his W. I felt sorry for her.

I wanted to keep things just as they were. FAiling that, there was nothing for me there.

[/QB][/QUOTE]Some people may disagree with me on this, but I don't fault an OP for falling in love with a MP. You can't control who you love. But, you can control how you handle it.>>>>

Sure you can control who you love. You can't control who you are attracted to, but having the hots for someone is a whole different story than love IMO. Then again, lots of people seem to think that even a fleeting crush is "love". To me love is what comes, or doesn't after the brain chemicals of limerance (that initial rush) fade away. That's when you know whether the love was real, or just biological. Then you either go to the deep attachment stage, or you drift apart. It can take a long time for those brain chemicals to fade. I think I've read up to 2 years. No way to "fall in love" with someone that you never go even go on a date with, and it's easy to prevent that from happening with the simple words "No thank you". Being "in love" is totally different than having a crush on someone.

<<<if a MP is willing to break up one marriage to be with you, what makes you think they won't do it again, this time with you being the one who gets hurt? If you show no respect for the sanctity of someone elses marriage, why would anyone show respect for your marriage?>>>

I agree. It's always ironic to see an OP cry the blues when their MP cheats on them. The xOW tried to act like I was the OW lol. That was funny. I'd never knowingly be anyone's dirty little secret. even while they were living together (he lied to everyone about where he was and wouldn't admit the realtionship to anyone) he was still taking me out in public and making sure no one saw him with her. If he had married her (snowball's chance in hell lol) that marriage would have meant nothing to me, and I've always been one to respect other people's marriage vows. MM were always totally off limits for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fairydust:
<strong>If he had married her...that marriage would have meant nothing to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you can see why I wasn't so concerned about his marriage to W.

Certain marriages under certain circumstances may be devalued in ones mind. FD makes that point quit clearly.

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>