</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fairydust:
<strong>If he had married her...that marriage would have meant nothing to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you can see why I wasn't so concerned about his marriage to W.

Certain marriages under certain circumstances may be devalued in ones mind. FD makes that point quit clearly.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do you mean that he was cheating on you with her before they were married? That's the only thing that would devalue a marriage to me.

He met me first and wanted married. I asked him to wait. He met her 2 months later and married her 6 months after that. On the honeymoon (or shortly thereafter) he called me crying.

That notwithstanding, all I was saying is that people find all kinds or reasons to invalidate the marriage of another.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>He met me first and wanted married. I asked him to wait. He met her 2 months later and married her 6 months after that. On the honeymoon (or shortly thereafter) he called me crying.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But was he cheating on you, or did you know that he was seeing other people/person? If he was cheating on you then I see your point. But if you knew and were okay with it, then that's different. Did she know that she wasn't the only one? Either way, he kind of sounds like a guy who isn't big on thinking things through and has little impulse control lol. A guy like that would probably be a loose cannon no matter who he was with.

He has ABSOLUTELY ZERO impulse control. He all but proposed on our second date. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, we met, dated, then took a break. During the break he met her. We were friendly (but not what I would call dating). She gets pregnant - they get married.

No sooner then the vows were taken he was in tears to me "i've made a mistake, etc." For a Looooooong time I believed that he was there for the children. In time I could give a flip why he was there.

I think it's made for complicated by the fact that we had this intense emotional relationship but no sex until 6 years in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>He has ABSOLUTELY ZERO impulse control. He all but proposed on our second date. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, we met, dated, then took a break. During the break he met her. We were friendly (but not what I would call dating). She gets pregnant - they get married.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A guy like that would scare me. I mean, who knows when someone else might catch his eye and he thinks he's in madly love after one conversation lol. I do have to say though that the majority of marriages I've seen where the marriage was prompted by a pregnancy tend not to fare so well. Even if the guy was actually excited to get married in the first place, as soon as problems start to arise revisionist history often starts to creep in and he was "forced" to get married. And of course some guys never did want to get married but felt like they had to, that almost always ends up badly. Or (like one of my male friends from high school) - girlfriend gets "accidentally" pregnant because she thinks guy is a catch. He doesn't want to get married but does because he thinks it's the right thing. He takes full responsibility for his new family, treats his wife like a princess and basically makes love a choice. He thinks things are going along well until she announces that marriage isn't as fun as she thought it would be, and she found someone else.

He was in love with love and marriage in a way that i've only seen women be. It was weird. He IS a catch - on paper. Great job. Money in the bank, nice house, from a nice family, cars. ALWAYS offers to give his girl the world.

She was a single mom trying to make ends meet. So I see what she saw in him. PLUS he's a hottie!!!

He scared me to death with all of that "love" talk so soon. I think he thought that everything would be ok as soon as he had a family, then it bacame as soon as his son was a little older. Years later there's still an "as soon as..."

There is no question that I loved him for a long time. Probably still do. We have an undeniable connection. I choose not to nurture that connection any longer. Maybe it'll die, maybe not.

I WAS an opportunist. He wanted to be my Prince Charming and "rescue" me even after he got married. I was all too happy to let him. And when I was tired I dumped him + told the wife (so he's stay away).

Some have called what I did ruthless. I'm still not sure how I feel about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>He was in love with love and marriage in a way that i've only seen women be. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He sounds like my sister's ex husband. He was Prince Charming. Right away with the expensive gifts, romantic dinners, trips, love letters. She got a huge rock about 3 months after the started dating. She wanted to wait a year to get married, he said "I can't imagine waiting that long to have you as my wife." and begged for a wedding in 6 months. She wanted a very small wedding, he wanted extravagant because his first wedding was at city hall (and was "a mistake"). Said he wanted to "show off their love to the world". he was involved in all the plans. Don't know too many straight guys who care about the napkins lol. Less than 2 years into the marriage he left her for someone else. Said the "fire had gone out" and he "needed to feel that fire". She found emails where he told the OW that my sister forced him to get married and have a big wedding, that it was all a mistake and he never really loved her (same thing he told sis about his FIRST wife lol). When the "fire" apparently started wearing off with the OW he started practically stalking my sister (after they were divorced). The last she heard from him he told her he was getting married to the OW, but if sis would take him back he'd dump her. He'd been cheating on her anyway with several other people (wh all meant nothing of course). She said no thanks and moved 1000 miles away lol.

yup, sounds just like my xMM.

Believe it or not, these days I take the idea of marriage VERY seriously. It's FAR too big a thing to just jump in to. I have never known a couple who rushed down the aisle to last. NEVER!

I began dating a nice single guy in Sept of last year. I've never had a rockier start and remained. This much time later we're very much in love. It isn't easy, but we take it a day at a time.

My experience has taught me that marriage is what happens in the heart not what happens on paper. So we're waiting a loooong time, until we're both really sure we're ready. There's no rush as far as we're concerned.

Still trying to figure out where there is so much being discussed about the OW or OM?

In my opinion they aren't worth our time.....so sitting around trying to figure out why they do this or that is a mute point.

They aren't putting a gun to our WS's heads and "making" them have an A. The OW or OM isn't affecting our lives nearly as much as the WS.......they have a part in it....but it's the WS's choice to have an A.....nobody forces them to do it.

Now......I'm going to get flamed for this for sure........but I've been there and done that.....so here goes........

If we the BS spent as much time analyzing ourselves as we do the OM or OW's actions......then I'm sure it wouldn't be as painful for us and we would be able to focus on our abilities to make a go of it.....with or without our WS's.

I include myself because I used to analyze everything that had to do with the WS and the OW......I'm a woman afterall.

BUT.......I have a choice.

1. People treat me only the way I let them treat me.
2. Nobody makes me happy or sad. Situations can make me happy or sad but only I have control of how I will handle something.
3. I can depend on nobody but myself for certain things.
4. I can sit around and analyze everything on the whys and what ifs.....or I can focus on myself......myself being the more important person at that time.
5. My xWS doesn't make me who I am. I do.

I only say all of this because there is so much focus on the OW or OM and why they do this or that........when really we should be thinking of why WE (BS) do this or that....and what we ARE or ARE NOT going to put up with.

The anger also seems to be misplaced alot of the time. So much anger toward the OW or OM.......but what about the WS.......the one who actually spoke the vows....the one who's actually breaking them.

The OW has no place in my life......she really never did. She had nothing to do with ME. Though she was involved with my WS.....she wasn't involved with me.....therefore....she isn't worth the slightest thought.

Getting to that point is tough......but it makes thigs much easier to deal with.

Brilliant post, Miss Priss!

I don't think all OW/OMs are the same...just as no WH/BS situation is the same...but "situational ethics" seems to be an exercise in denial here...

It is like there are no more ground rules...
Maybe I do live in a storybook world. Yes everyone plays a part here...but the characters have taken over the play and there isn't the traditional cathasis...

There is no one hero/villian of the piece, everyone was responsible for the "death" of the M, and the audience is left searching for answers.

What can we learn from this confused state of M that exists currently? What can we teach our children?...

Feeling like Pooh bear...going off to think...

I don't want the OP's remorse. I don't like her (have met her twice, very briefly, before the mess) and I don't approve of her lifestyle and the way she treats people (she and her boyfriend cheat on each other regularly). I have no desire to even speak with her, about anything. I just want my fiance's remorse, not hers.

whippet,

Thank you very much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

straycat,

What if you never receive the amount of remorse that you think your fiance should show? Are you willing to throw the marriage away because of the possibility of him not being able to measure up?

I don't know your story......so not sure what's going on there......but I've found that sometimes we have it in our heads that this certain thing or that certain thing will make everything better. Been there....done that too.....doesn't always work.

Badgering someone for something......or constantly talking about something that you are not receiving will certainly push the WS away. Possible making them feel that they will never be good enough.

I know that it is a habit to continually bring something up that isn't resolved or that we see no effort put forth on.......but sometimes the WS doesn't see it that way.

Though it may be the same subject over and over again.....sometimes the WS sees it as everything....all the time.....they just aren't good enough.

Sometimes we need to step back and remember that we can only expect something of someone that they are capable of giving.......not we want them to give.

Just my 2 cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>whippet,

Thank you very much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

straycat,

What if you never receive the amount of remorse that you think your fiance should show? Are you willing to throw the marriage away because of the possibility of him not being able to measure up?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems to me that's a very individual decision. If my husbadn hadn't ended up being extremely remorseful there is no way we'd have stayed together. When he came back I didn't know what to expect or have any expectations. I was taking it one day at a time. I certainly NEVER "badgered" him about anything. I wanted to make things and easy and as desirable as possible at home. but in hindsight I can see that his remorse made all the difference in the world to me. If he'd come back with the attitude that he didn't really do anything wrong I wouldn't have been able to handle it.

Personally I have never understood the BS's need for an apology from the OP. How could the word of OP mean anything?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>Personally I have never understood the BS's need for an apology from the OP. How could the word of OP mean anything?!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It wouldn't have meant diddly squat to me. The OW actually did "aplogize" to me when she first called because I "deserved to know the truth". Of course my BS meter was going full tilt right from the start because when I confronted her at the very beginning of the A she lied her a** off and feigned righteous indignation that I could even think she was "that kind of a person." Guess she was after all lol.
She only called to try and cause more trouble between us and get revenge on him for ending the affair. I sat there and listened to her ramble without saying much. Then she said "I'm so sorry for all of this. I know that what I did was wrong. You deserve so much better than him." Then I said "Well, none of this is coming as a huge shock to me. I pretty much knew all along that something was going on, but I chose to handle it in a different way. We've been talking about getting back together for quite awhile and I plan on putting everything I have into repairing this marriage because I love him." As soon as she realized that I wouldn't be throwing him out (which is what she wanted to happen) she FLIPPED OUT completely. Started screaming about how I ruined her life (by taking him back) and how much she hated me. So much for apologies lol.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
fairydust
Member
Member # 6297

posted October 28, 2002 08:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems to me that's a very individual decision. If my husbadn hadn't ended up being extremely remorseful there is no way we'd have stayed together. When he came back I didn't know what to expect or have any expectations. I was taking it one day at a time. I certainly NEVER "badgered" him about anything. I wanted to make things and easy and as desirable as possible at home. but in hindsight I can see that his remorse made all the difference in the world to me. If he'd come back with the attitude that he didn't really do anything wrong I wouldn't have been able to handle it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.....it very well may be an individual decision.......but that wasn't my point.

My point was.....asking more of someone than they are capable of giving at a certain time, yet expecting it anyway.

You said that you had no expectations.......yet you expected your H to be remorseful and if he hadn't been than you wouldn't have been able to handle it.

A question..........How long should one show remorse? That's an individual decision too.

In my case......my husband showed remorse when we first got back together but after about 3 days I told him that I wanted to move on.....and not feel like he was kissing my a$$.

I wanted to know that he was doing things for me...because he loved me....not just because he felt bad about what he had done.

The badgering comment I made wasn't meant to say that some or all of us do badger our WS's.........but alot of the time the WS sees it as that. Especially when the same subject is brought up over and over.

You said that you made everything as easy and desirable at home......but did you also have boundaries?

That could send the wrong message to some. Sometimes making everything easy and desirable makes the BS into a doormat.....which I totally disagree with. With boundaries set both parties know what to expect and know the consequences of breaking the boundaries.

I will admit......I have a totally different outlook on alot of things compared to alot of you here at MB. Now in recovery myself and knowing what worked for me (not saying it will work for others) I can say that I'm much stronger.....and now take nothing I don't have to take from anyone.

I have to look out for me......I can't expect someone else to do that for me.

I think that worrying about the OP is a waste of time......they certainly aren't sitting around worrying about the BS. I also think that having discussions about the OP....what were they like, etc.....is a waste of time.

In my opinion.......I'm burning daylight.....and everyone else is too....and time is too precious to be wasted on someone or something that we can do nothing about.

JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>
What if you never receive the amount of remorse that you think your fiance should show? Are you willing to throw the marriage away because of the possibility of him not being able to measure up?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say that I am with fairydust on this count. If my H had not shown remorse,I wouldn't have been interested in taking him back. A lack of remorse would have told me that since he didn't feel bad for his adultery then there was nothing stopping him from doing it again. And I had to be CONVINCED that it wouldn't happen again in order to have any interest in him. So, I guess the answer is YES, I would have most definately walked away [he threw it away when he had the affair] from the marriage in the absence of any remorse.

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I'm not talking about showing or not showing remorse.

I'm talking about the amount of remorse.

The amount that the BS expects........it's possible that the WS isn't capable of measuring up in that department.

I'm also talking about expectations......the fact the we the BS expect so much and more often than not our expectations are dashed.

Trying to point out that the BS and WS have different views....as every man and woman do.....and that what WE consider just is not always what the WS sees as just.

That being the case.......are most BS's willing to throw it away because their WS's don't see it "our way"?

Miss Priss,

It's not a matter of QUANTITY but a matter of QUALITY. I think its pretty easy to tell if a person is sincerely remorseful and that is all most BS' want. More is not better if its not sincere. Without sincerity, no amount of fake remorse will cut it. I don't think sincerity is too high of an expectation and if it is, then maybe the remorse is simply not real.

In addition to remorse, I would expect to see a willingness to repair the damage by protecting the BS and being as open as honest as possible.

And to answer your question, yes, I WOULD walk away if there was no sincere remorse shown. However, the WS "threw away" the marriage when he had an affair, not the BS.

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>