I talked to my SIL last night. I made it clear to her that I have done nothing to delay the D and that my W has not done much other than file. She told me my W told her nothing could be done until custody is settled. I told her we reached a verbal agreement on custody 5 months ago, so that is no longer an issue and that even though my W wants the D, my lawyer ended up writing up the formal custody agreement. I also told her that 8 months ago my lawyer had written letters to hers suggesting we sell the house and share custody of our daughter until everything is settled, to which she (my lawyer) got no reply. I told her I requested the same, and my W said no. I also told her that my lawyer sent a letter to my W's in January requesting financial info, again to which she got no reply. I told her that although I don't want this D, I've done nothing to stand in the way and the ball has clearly been in my W's court all along. Seems my W is using custody as the reason things aren't progressing, which simply isn't the case anymore. Even if it were, there are other issues to be settled. Could it be she's using custody as an "excuse" to her family because there's really is no other explanation for why the D is dragging out???

I also expressed my concerns that my W might be suffering from depression and gave her my reasons why, but I didn't press the issue.

I told her I gave my W the paperwork she requested so she could sell the house 7 weeks ago, but that the house is a mess and nowhere near ready to put on the market. I told her that for someone so adamant about wanting a D and selling the house, she's doing nothing about it and that her actions don't match her words. She had no answer for that. She said my W doesn't talk about it and no one asks. I asked her doesn't it seem odd that she doesn't talk to her family about something so major. She just said that's how my W is. I said maybe she needs someone to reach out to her.

All in all though, it wasn't a great conversation. I got the feeling she didn't quite believe me, is getting a completely different story from my W, or just wasn't comfortable talking to me about it, but maybe she just needs some time to put everything together. I didn't leave there feeling very hopeful, I got the sense that my SIL considers the D a foregone conclusion based on what little my W has told her, but I'm glad I got some things out in the open. It really amazes me that for such a close family they're taking such a hands-off approach to this. If someone had told me some of things I've told my SIL, I'd be much more concerned and puzzled, but maybe she's taking what I tell her with a grain of salt. Oh well, they'll have to be the ones to help my W pick up the pieces when she hits rock bottom, if that ever happens.

Anyway, I stopped by the house again yesterday and my W still has done nothing as far as getting it ready to sell. It's a mess. I talked to Steve H. about this and he said even though I'm in plan B, it's time to sit down with my W and ask some hard questions like:

"You've told me for a year and a half that you want a D and you filed a year ago, but you haven't pursued it very aggressively. Your words say one thing but your actions say another. Is this really what you want? Are you having any doubts?"

Assuming she says this is what she wants:

"It's been 7 weeks since I gave you the paperwork you needed. Why aren't you getting the house ready to sell?"

He said don't settle for "I don't know" answers or dancing around the subject. He said I can't reiterate enough that I believe there's a way we can save our marriage, but it's time for some answers. He said it's not about pushing her off the fence, it's about talking her down.

I was very surprised by this advice since any pressure by the BS usually pushes the WS towards the OP, but Steve and I both believe OM is no long a factor (if he was, we'd be divorced by now). It's time for her to sh*t or get off the pot. I nearing the point of giving up.

sad dad

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

sad dad:

But how are you?

I've learned not to try and second guess what family are thinking at a time like this or what their motives are. Your SIL is going to have loyalties to her sister no matter what your W has done. How did you end up talking with the SIL anyway? I've found my in-laws to be very hands-off in our situation.

As for the house sale issue, well, it is possible that she just does not want her life to change all that much--except to be separated from you. She wants her daughter and her home. I can see why she is not anxious to move on. Could your W buy you out so she can own the home? While she may not have the cash up front, in the event of a divorce, she will be entitled to a portion of your retirement, etc. so she could use part of those assets to essentially buy you out of the home. Maybe you could offer something like this to your wife and she would feel less anxious and more protected. My lawyer has already made this suggestion to me in my situation (WW does not want to leave the house and wants the children to continue to live with her for greatest stability).

Good luck. I think SH probably talked with you about some sort of timeline for Plan B. Are you nearing the end of that time? Are there signs that things are going to change?

HoFS

HFS,

How am I? Frustrated. I'm sure that was obvious.

I know what you are saying about in-laws, and my SIL's loyalties are where they should be, I just wanted someone from "the other side" to know where things stand and why. I've wanted to talk to my SIL for quite awhile about my concerns that my W may be depressed. I could be wrong about that, who knows.

I'm sure my W doesn't want her life to change that much, but SHE told me she wanted to sell the house. There's no chance of either of us buying the other out. The bottom line is things cannot remain like this any longer. Whether she wants change or not, it's going to happen, this was her decision.

Steve never did talk to me about any timeline for plan B, but then again I didn't go to plan B for the usual reasons. Nothing is changing

sad dad

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

I got the feeling she didn't quite believe me, is getting a completely different story from my W, or just wasn't comfortable talking to me about it, but maybe she just needs some time to put everything together.

Could be any of those reasons. I'm leaning towards "getting different story from W".

I didn't leave there feeling very hopeful, I got the sense that my SIL considers the D a foregone conclusion based on what little my W has told her, but I'm glad I got some things out in the open. It really amazes me that for such a close family they're taking such a hands-off approach to this.

I'm willing to betcha that your conversation may do some good. Even though SIL didn't disclose much, or act too concerned, perhaps she'll take some of your conversation back to some of the family, maybe even your W, and something good may come of it.

It's truly amazing what happens to relationships with in-laws through all this. I still roll my eyes at some things that happened with mine.

My date? Well, I thought it went pretty darn well! We even went out Saturday night also. But this week seems to be a different story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> sheesh... I'm not too sure about this dating stuff yet... you'd think I would be used to dealing with aliens after going through Plan A and Plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Oh well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can tell you're frustrated, and you have every right to be. I hope you'll get some answers soon from your talk with your W.... and if not, Steve will continue helping you make a plan to get some resolution one way or another.

Faith1

Faith1,

I'm glad your date went well, sort of. Maybe he just doesn't want to pressure you.

I'll take your bet.

I'm not optimistic anything will get resolved when I talk to my W. Most likely I have to take the reigns on selling the house (through my lawyer and the courts if necessary). Same goes for the D. Right now given the choice of being divorced or living in limbo, I'll take divorce.
Pretty sad statement isn't it?

sad dad

It's realistic...and that may just be what your situation needs...a nice big splash of reality. She may just be waiting for you to take the reigns so she doesn't have to do it...or she may just be stalling. Either way, you'll be going SOMEWHERE instead of just sitting still waiting.

Don't try to guess what SIL is thinking. She may just need some time to process everything. Or, she may know more than you think. It's hard to say, and not worth worrying over. I just hope you get some resolution soon!

Just out of curiousity...what were your wifes beefs about you? Did she ever tell you what needs she had that weren't met or what did she used to complain about? Do you know what she saw in the OM that might have been something she was looking for in a partner? Did she ever fill out the EN quiz?

h4f,

A little reality, maybe that's what we both need.

I did find out something interesting today. My lawyer was supposed to go to court last Tuesday to enter the custody agreement. When I talked to my SIL the other night, she said my W told her my lawyer never showed up for court. That was news to me. I talked to my lawyer this morning and told her what my SIL said. She (my lawyer) told me she did go to court and entered the agreement. In fact, she told me my W's lawyer wanted to review the agreement with my W one last time and my lawyer made sure that was entered into the record. My lawyer made a point of telling me this was the first time she met this lawyer (another lawyer in the firm is now handling the case for my W, the W of her original lawyer). Clearly she lied to my SIL. Very interesting?????

To answer your other questions, when my W first told me she was unhappy 2 yrs ago, she said part of it was angry outburts and disrespectful judgements on my part, among other reasons that she couldn't quite specify. I started seeing a shrink to try to get help with those behaviors, but for the most part by just seeing the affect they had on my W, I was able to overcome them pretty easily.

She never complained about anything or told me anything was wrong until that night 2 yrs ago. I never asked her to fill out the EN questionairre, but I did ask her once if I wasn't affectionate enough or didn't give her enough attention, and she said no. I'll be the first to admit, I'm not much of a romantic, but I was always completely dedicated to her and our daughter, they came first in my life, above my job, my friends, etc. I always did more than my share of cooking, cleaning, paying the bills, grocery shopping, child rearing. Hope that answers your questions.

sad dad

Wow...lying to the SIL now, freaky! What's the point? What's her angle? I'm just trying to get a better picture of what could be going through her head.

Honestly, from what you've said it doesn't sound like she ever really looked to improve the marriage...only possibly looked for it to get worse, maybe. I'm not sure if she's a conflict avoider and just doesn't want to say what she wants or what. She probably doesn't even know.

As far as not being romantic, but doing many domestic things....that sounds like my hubby. He felt like I should be happy because he was loyal, a good provider, a wonderful father and willing to help around the house. To this day those things are wonderful and do make me thankful...but are still not enough. While I appreciate my hubby helping with the dishes or laundry, I'd rather see it pile up and get a romantic card or flowers more regularly. It's just how I feel special and romantically loved. I know my hubby loves me...but when he shows it the way I feel it more...it's more noticed.

I realize you can't show your wife that kind of love and appreciation right now, but I'm wondering if you might be able to show her you are capable of that kind of thing through your daughter. That's kind of how my hubby did it, though not necessarily intentionally (to the best of my knowledge). He'd pick up a cute holiday card and a little present for our son now and then or just out of the blue to let him know he cared.

I just know you're getting down to the count and if it were me and I were still interested in reconciliation...I'd be pulling out all the cards. Get yourself a really attractive wardrobe...it doesn't have to be expensive, just HOT! Go to a salon and have them style your hair in a new hot fashion...something that's still you, but HOTTER! Wear cologne. Give your daughter SMALL gifts and cards...nothing that looks like you're trying to win her over to your side or something like that...just "thinking of you" things. Seem really happy, like you haven't a care in the world. Drop all relationship talk, like it isn't an issue anymore. Maybe it will make her question what's going on in your life.

Just some thoughts...

h4f,

Some interesting comments. I told my W once after all this started that men aren't the most perceptive creatures on earth, we usually need to be hit over the head, subtle hints go right over our heads.

As far as my daughter, I've gone out of my way the last two years to shower her with love and attention. Not to "win" her over, but to insure that she knew daddy loved her in the midst of what was going on and because, sadly, she was the only one who would let me. We are always going for bike rides, going to the park, miniature golfing, renting movies, "camping" in the living room, wrestling (her favorite thing, as she says "she's very strong"), dancing, etc. I asked her recently why she loves daddy so much and she said because I do so many fun things with her. I said I'm sure mommy does fun things with you too and she said no, mommy just watches TV. I felt so sad for her, but parents play different roles I guess.

In any case, I've still got to talk to my W about the house and hopefully begin resolving that issue.

sad dad

<small>[ October 26, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>

Yikes...I guess I'm back to assuming your wife is either hiding something or in a great depression. While I was struggling with the A and my own issue I know my relationship with my son was strained. As much as I wanted to be a wonderful mother to him, it was very difficult to concentrate on anything when my head was swimming. That's just a battle she has to face on her own. No one can make you help yourself.

h4f,

Who knows what it could be? My guess is it's depression, probably shame too. It's apparent she's using custody (and blaming me/my lawyer) as an excuse to her family for why the D is dragging out because she has no other explanation for it.

I saw my W at our daughter's daycare Halloween party on Saturday. I plan A'd as best I could and it wasn't tense. Surprisingly, she asked me if I wanted to go trick or treating with them on Thursday. I said I'd let her know.

sad dad

Hi sad - dropping in for a quick look here.

Ditto Faith that info given to in-laws (WS family) gets filtered thru the Mothership. Lies are lies, no matter who hears them.

Keep yer chin up.

Dave

Well, tomorrow's the night I talk to my W. She seemed a little taken aback when I called and told her I want to talk to her, but it's time I got some answers to the questions I've been asking myself for a long time regarding the D and the house. I'll admit I'm scared, but it's time to get this situation resolved one way or another. I'm still working through exactly what I'm going to say. Wish me luck.

sad dad

Hi Sad Dad,

A couple of comments:

<strong>Could it be she's using custody as an "excuse" to her family because there's really is no other explanation for why the D is dragging out???
</strong>
yes, you got it baby! of course it's an excuse, of course she is flunking in front of her family (as far as they are communicating), of course she doesnt know what to do exactly. what do you expect: do you think she'll tell her family "hi guys. here's the bombshell: I'm betraying the father of my child, I'm betraying my husband".

<strong>
I was very surprised by this advice since any pressure by the BS usually pushes the WS towards the OP, but Steve and I both believe OM is no long a factor (if he was, we'd be divorced by now). It's time for her to sh*t or get off the pot. I nearing the point of giving up.
</strong>

I think this is a misunderstanding of the Harley method. Personally, I think it's about the WAY you say things, not WHAT is actually the content of your message. with this I mean: yes, you CAN and SHOULD be honest and speak up what is on your mind and heart. Example: Your WW actions and words dont match. For goodness' sake: Ask her why! Steve H is right, spot on. The thought of "but she might not like the question therefore she might go to OP" is wrong. It leads to a situation where you "pretend" and dont be honest - on the other hand, it enables her to double-cross and bullsiht you, as she knows, that you dont dare crossing this territory. I think the secret lies in the WAY you say things. There's a great proverb in French which says:

<strong>
C'est le ton qui fait la musique
</strong>

Meaning: It's the tone which makes the music. Meaning: when you say these "sensitive" things, ask these "sensitive" questions: ask them nicely, not cynicaly, not as closed questions but rather as open questions, like: "hey, we know each other well enough. help me understand, 'cause I dont gettit: why do you X and say Y? which one is it? does that mean you will come and do Z with the house tomorrow? can I help?" etc etc.

Best of luck. Let me know of an update.

Cheers,
Nick, London (UK)

sd,
GOOD LUCK!!! I will be anxious to see an update from you tomorrow night, or Friday morning. You'll do fine. Relax, get the answers you need, (make yourself some reminder notes if you need to, to stay on track - and tell her its cuz you want to be sure you don't forget anything), and do lots of listening.

Faith1 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi SD- I"ve been following your thread here and I am eager to hear how your talk turns out with your W. Even though I realize you are following Plan B I think at some point the hard issues have to be talked about directly. Have you thought about what you want to say to her and thought about what her answers might be? Are you going trick or treating tonite with your D? My H is taking our 3 kids out while I pass out the candy. I live in the ultimate little kids neighborhood so I hope I don't run out.H and I have stopped joint counseling now but I am still going by myself there.THis wk my therapy 'homework' is to write a long letter to H to tell him exactly how the A and his coldness and continuing on with it and filing for D affected me- now that is going to be one LONG letter!( she doesnt want me to actuallys how it to him just to her) The therapist said I should expect to have a bad headache after writing it!I expect I will too- I have been having frequent headaches for months now and I think its due to all these painful thoughts and feelings inside my head. H and I are re-financing soon and taking out some extra money to pay off bills. I think that will relieve some of the constant financial pressure I hope. Take care- lifeismessy

lim,

I'm glad recovery is going well for you, but sad to hear that you're still struggling with the after affects 1-1/2 yrs later. It's good that you're not trying to deal with this on your own though. Good luck. I think the letter's a good idea, it may help your counselor get a better understanding of the devastation the A caused.

To answer your questions, I know what I'm going to ask and pretty sure what her answers will be, but I'll prepare myself with a response to any possible answer. I'll probably hear alot of "I don't know".

On the way to the party last Saturday, my daughter told me how happy she was that "her family" was going to be together. It kind of broke my heart to hear the excitement in her voice and I don't want to mislead her, so I decided not to go trick or treating with them tonight.

Wish me luck.

sad dad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong>Well, tomorrow's the night I talk to my W.
.
.
Wish me luck.

sad dad</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck sd! Did you discuss the questions with Steve? It might be best to go into this with the set of questions in front of you. Something short. Some reminder so you don't get sidetracked off of your objective. Just curious, would it be feasible to exchange written communication through lawyers so that you can remain in Plan B mode? How much time left in Plan B?

Again, good luck.

HoFS