He has been making big deals about his church, our church.. we had only been going to the church by our house on and off for a yr... not joinging .. becasue my h wuold not agree with me what church to go to...

After he left, me and the kids and ws (by letter) joined church by me. I asked him , do you want to join too? or just me and the kids?

Now, H wants to only go to his church.

I invited hi m on sundayto go with us.. he hasnt been in a while to my knowledge... he says go to my church if you like, not sure if I want to ride with you.... but you can come.

I am so thrilled, and thinking I should just go to my chuch, by the house with the neighborhood, etc.

His is in that city neighborhood with a different crowd.. not that I mind.. just very few children there and more liberals (he is in very v ery lib. neighborhood). But hey it is still church and it could bring us together a bit? t o go as a family???

Need advice. thanks, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Honey,

Let me say this...you are a diamond in the rough. I sense tremendous qualities in you that are admirable. I believe in your ability to succeed in anything you decide to do with your life.

You have an energy about you, wisdom, courage and sense of humor that are qualities that will support you in your success.

I have decided that I am not the best person to talk with you about your H. Bramble is by far, better qualified.

Since I commented to you in your last thread that I would like to see you focus on yourself, your life and your children; I told myself I would like to help you do this if you're willing and ready. Know why? Because I think you can help me too.

If you're interested in hearing more let me know. If not, that's ok too!

To answer your question in this thread. My response is that you already know the answer, you're just asking yourself the wrong question.

The better question is "Would going to H's church as he suggests be best for me and the boys; vs going to our church as previously planned?" I don't mean to suggest which is the better answer. My point is "What is best place for you and the boy?"

Which church do you feel "connected with", that "speaks" to you? Blessings CSue

Why not ask your boys which church they'd like to go to? Or perhaps each of you go to your respective churches, and then meet for lunch, or visit a park, after the services?

Putting myself in your shoes, I wouldn't go to his church. He was VERY disrespectful to you, by commenting "go to my church if you like, not sure if I want to ride with you... but you can come". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> How kind of your H, to ALLOW you to go to a PUBLIC church!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Honey, you can go to whichever church you choose, WHENEVER you choose to go. You do NOT need your H's approval on this one.

As far as 'bringing you together a bit, by going to church as a family' - I'm sorry, but the actions speak more. Are you living as a family now? Why would you want to put on a show to make it seem like you are? Why be a hypocryte? (there are enough of them in churches already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). I've gone that route with my H during our separation, and it only hurt me more when I went back to "my house" and he went back to "his house".

LIVE the lessons in the Bible and in church, don't PRETEND to live them.

Karen

Hi and thanks for your replies topie and csue.. I hear you both.

I don't think we'll go to "his church"... I was just inviting him with us .. thinking that might urge this man to get some religion in his life.

Anyway, not much hope with the way he is acting.

Have not called him all day, tempted, but have not. I am working on our house and cleaning this mess. I have JUNK everywhere and frankly am very tired of it.

I need to go , my dad is driving up to fix my gate... dogs tore a hole through it. Hugs, HONEY

honey,

imho..... go go go GO GO......

he is giving you a golden opportunity to bring the 2 of you together and to top it off, GOD is gonna be there..... there is no decision to be made in my mind.

in Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 Soloman describes what brings and holds 2 cords(people) together strongly. the Third cord. that third cord is God.
i know you want a strong relationship with him. submit to him and let him lead you to God. no better marriage counselor ever.

peace
tim

ok Tim, you are back on my other side of the coin.. my thinking is.. eventually he will come home and we will go to church here.. I could care less which church really.. they are both episcopalian.. wo at least we are agreeing on the type of church... still christian is enough for me... Maybe I will go... he makes such a biggie out of his place my place, I am sick over it.

I am thinking h should lead the family in some decisions and I am fine if he likes a church we can go there... despite the 45 minute drive there.. and then we can do lunch.. right TOpie? It is not a true farce.. in my opinion.. we are just going and seeking faith together.. which I feel can re4ally save our marriage... I did go with him there before a while back in my beginning of plan a.. and we all enjoyed it and went to lunch.. it was "like" being a family together again.

thanks TIM, honey

Hugs, HONEY

Honey ~

I think this answer is pretty much up to you...I don't think there is anything wrong with going to "his" church if it makes him feel like his point of view, his needs, his opinions are being respected. I suspect however, it may simply be a manipulation - if it is, boy won't he be sorry when you take him up on his offer and go! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sometimes, Plan A can be wickedly fun!

However, I would stress that you need to start thinking about what Honey needs instead of what will get your husband to come home. Honey most likely needs a safe, spiritual rock, a community and a support group. Which church will do this for Honey?

What about your kids? Now, if your kids are not settled in and comfortable at a specific church, then I think it doesn't matter so much. But if they are - then perhaps keeping some points of consistency and normalcy for them is more important.

So Honey - there's good reasons to do either one. You have to make a decision - take responsiblity <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks BR, See you are an Early Riser, ... at least earlier than some. I appreciate and respect your wise viewpoint especially knowing you have and do deal with the alcohol aspect of all of this.

So often drinking and infidelity go hand in hand... and I have found some at alanon who have experienced, but I do apprec. your opinion mixed in the mb! and alanon!

My older son, age 10, 5th grader is having a fit about going to dad's church - just got through telling me there are freaks there. OH WELL... I told him we are visiting today. We are not going to join that church, but just visit.

In my plan a with the 1st ow, before the maid... we were going to church steadily.. me and the kids to our church, here by our home... same flavor as h's new church... by his "home". We all went together to his church one time and I think after that there was some big lb that backset us and we did not go again... during that time period in early plan A when H went to church.. he talked to the rector, and he was contemplating what he had done.

He brought me and kisd up to meet him after church. During that time I was more welcome in h's "home" than now... we were less seperate and the seperation was still new. I don't recall the big issue.. prob. at that time my issue was COME HOME or I will quit dating you... also I refused to clean his house, etc.

Other stuff like that... (btw he wants me to iron some shirts???? do I do that????) Honestly I don't really mind and know it will be a hugs love deposit, around 5 shirts....

When I got demanding and put my foot down.. "you don't come home, I won't see you"- gee that worked... in came the maid. I was also a little snooty when asked to clean his house... "what???? "
My newest answer when he asked me to help him clean when he moved out of his house... the eviction.... wass.... "if we all live together I will handle the cleaning". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know... what to say in Plan A.... I guess plan a really makes you feel like a doormat.

H has to work after church, he called yes. to tell me, so not lunch, just one hour of worship.

I did have to hang up on h yesterday when he tried to push my buttons.. than k you Topie!!! He started in about the fat factor and telling me, "just friend to friend, you really need to do something.. I was looking at some old pictures of you... blah blah blah... take care of yourself!..." more insulting it digressed.. don't even remember... I hung up as it started to make me cry... no response just a click in his ear.

What do you know 15-20 minutes later a phone call with apology and a - more imporved invite to church... I told him I did not want to go unless he wanted me to... and the kids.

Well he got more friendly than the original you can go there if you want to... he now sd maybe it will be a good idea, will you go? still the maybe is lacking, but this is the fogged ws , right?

I think I am just going to have to be like Jesus to save this marriage... will it be owrth it?

I started reading a book this am, 101 lies men tell women... now guys that is not at all saying women dont lie.. just the nature of the book, trying to get us women to discern... or me.. I know my h lies... that is a problem... now how do I know when he lies to me.

My hope is that - without needing to meet us at church.. h prob. would not go.. so we are meeting him.. I hope this can be a step back towards his reaching towards a more spiritual lifestyle... which could greatly improve everything!!!!

So I am just hoping , again it is a baby step... NO< do not want to be manipulated.. and he is not angry that we are going.. I clarified, will not go unless you really want us to.....

It might have started as a counter to my invite to go to church with us... and it may be the only reason he is going.. if I know h it is...

But anyway, enough typing.. sorry to have gone on so long.. just had my coffee.

thanks, I am rereading all the good stuff ya'll have given me to think on.

I have to change me, I can't change him!

Honey

Honey - Do not Iron his shirts..... My god he says that you are getting fat - then he asks you to iron his shirts - I don't care if you don't mind - you are not his maid - you want to be his wife not his cleaning woman.... My god - you are as bad as me... But I am trying to get better - I have told my husband that I do not want to see him - that I do not want him coming in my house - that I want to be able to get over him and make it on my own... I know I have no self esteem left and that is from what he has done to me - but you know you don't either - you are young intellegent - you do not need him to make you happy - you have to make yourself happy - just think you have probably only been happy for the last year when he is nice to you - he manipulates you - and then turns it around like you are the one at fault and I also live with this problem all of the time - my husband thinks that I am the controller - yet he controls everything - he will say hi how are you how are the kids - oh well I will see them if you let - etc... It is always one bad thing one good thing... My husband told me we may date if I lost some weight - well you know that is the reason that I probably cannot right now ...I just think you deserve so much better for yourself right now... I am not saying get divorced but stop making him your top priority every waking moment of the day... Your world does not revolve around him - show him you can stand on your own two feet......

Plan A requires that you respect yourself enough NOT to iron his shirts. You can tell him why you chose not to in a calm non lovebusting way. He'll respect you for not giving in to his efforts to have his cake and eat it too. He chose to be separated therefore natural consequences dictate that he does his own ironing and cleaning. When he decides to be in a commited loving relationship he gets the benefits of that.....ironing and cleaning plus much more.

In response to the his church/your church thing, I think everyone is missing the point that Honey's H has always felt that she make demands on him, and he has rebelled against this.

No judgements here, just stating what I observe. I think he is trying to regain some sense of being IN CONTROL of some of what his family does.

Instead of living in HER FAMILY's house, or going to church SHE chooses, he gets to make the decision this time. Then asked her in a very respectful way to join him! Sounds like a major step in the right direction to me!!

My .02.

Hey lupo - no, I didn't miss that point. Thats why I told her she could consider going.

However, HONEY....

First off, I hope you explained to your 10 year old that people who make the effort to go to church are not freaks! Help your son learn from an early age that self-righteous judgements do nothing but cause oneself a great deal of pain and harm.

Fear of not being good enough often translates into seeing others as not good enough - for example, not good enough to go to church with.

I was raised in a household where we were taught from an early age the "truth" about everything and made to feel that we knew "better" than everyone else.

Guess what that got me? Nuthin but a broken family and a broken marriage and a broken heart. My self-righteous superiority nearly ruined my entire life.

My sister called me shortly after I filed for divorce and mentioned that a family "friend" (one of the clued-in chosen few with the approved form of truth) had comforted my parents when hearing that I had filed for divorce. His comment: "Sorry you lost one already..." (i.e., my parents had sadly become parents of one of those bad selfish lazy immoral secular people who divorced instead of fixing their marriage).

Ahhh, nothing like being on the receiving end of a self-righteous, IGNORANT, disrepectful judgement to open my eyes to just how badly MINE had hurt my husband.

I know I am coming on strong...but you've had a real problem with disrespectful judgements against your husband and his family and other people...and now its coming from your son's mouth.

If you want your marriage, this has to be fixed - first in you, and then in your son!

As for cleaning and doing your husband's shirts...I don't think so. You are taking care of 2 kids alone and working full time!

The only compromise I ever made with my husband was that I let him do his own wash at our home if and when he was visiting the kids. I didn't touch it though.

Same thing with church and family functions. I went on with my life, made plans, did stuff with the kids, and jsut took it day by day. My husband was always invited but my plans never required and I never expected his presence.

I'd say, H, my sister is coming for the weekend with her kids, we'll be having dinner on Sunday night, you are welcome to visit.

Or, H, we are going to 9 am mass at my church, you are welcome to meet us there...

Even better, H, Thanksgiving dinner is at our house, your parents will be by at 1pm. You are welcome to come...

Well, it was a wonderful service...
I did talk to my older son about calling people freaks... I think his reference was to the type of people in that neighborhood... that everyone is a child of GOd and deserves and is loved the same by God, etc. There are druggies in that neighbhorhood and rough types.. I think that was the reference... but anyway , they weren't at church.

It was my second attendance at the small church and I realy enjoyed it.
H did not show up. I was not completely suprised, a bit dissapointed, but not completely suprised, tried calling him 2x on sunday and left messages no answer.

The sermon was a message from God about love... how love is what makes everything good and Ok, and how we are commanded to Love God above all commandments with all our hearts... then love our neighbhor with that same love. What a world ... ? THe priest talked about us all living as if we are citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

I am definitely reenthused and ready to spend my week being loving to my friends, neighbors and hopefully if my h is still alive, my ws. I worry about him with the drinking problem and hope he is not in jail, or in a hospital or worse.. but he has survived this far in life without me. He is a big boy and he has God looking out for him.

I read my alanon books on fear, and feelings also last night... feelings really seem to get to me.

I recall don't know if It was just something I saw on a page or what... something aobut my alchoolics avalanche that is building up and how I should do nothing to remove any thing that is getting on his heap.. and do nothing to add to it. Let him deal with the consequences of how he lives and let him hope for a better life. I know he wants more peace.. he says our home was full of fighting... well I csn be peaceful and make a home he would want to live in.. but first of all I am doing that for me.

I have to take care of me.. Yes, I still need to read those alanon pages on taking care of myself. Why is it so hard? Classic codependent I guess, I was raised to take care of others... as a female.

My mother does it, and I am expected to do it- at least I thought I was.
Anyway- one poster was so right.. my ws feels controlled by my choosing our home, his having to live here.. my finally choosing a church.. he refused to choose one fo 3+ yrs.. I finally got him on a visiting schedule and for a while though neither of us are catholic he insisted we go to the Catholic church.... I later found out he had cheated on me during this time, a one nighter , I think, and he had gone to the catholic church and confessed... in confession...
He was raised baptist, as was I.... and after his susggestion at joining an episcopal church, which we did in atlanta... now im houston, he is telling me we should be catholic. I told him I was happy with the episcopal church.. can we visit quite a few until we find one we like??

He is very strange. Yes, his pride is wounded and his insistance that he not live in my "parents" house is ridiculouse. all my parents did was buy the home.. there has not been a word about it being thirs by them... except by me to my h... as we promised to buy it in a yr... we have been here 5. Ok, before that ws , when responsble for the bills.. had us constantly moving from one rental to the next, it was exhausting and I needed a HOME.. we both had bad credit and had both been divorced very young. Well, my parents helped me with 2nd baby ont he way and oldest son in kindergarten.. we needed a HOME>.. not another rental.. mind you, ws did not always pay the rent on time.. we were evicted at least 2x - maybe once moving while skipping rent - maybe 2x- due.. ws way of life... I hated it, and I simply could not live that way. vowed to work and get my mba so that I could provide even if he did not.... I did. And now I am.

I do think he has issues with me making more than him, big ones. He worked harder and was a better h when I stayed at home. I would love to ,but I cant live with his zany way of life.. the alcoholics...

Anyway, I always thouht my husband would be a good provider, someone to love and befriend.. not a child to take care of.

I know this post is quite frank and honest.. nad I hate to even admit some of the horror I have lived through.. evictions, etc. It was all thanks to alcohol and me depending on an alcoholic.. that is how he lives.

I eventually, before the BIG A... got angry - demanded h go to school, demanded he work hard and make more money... etc. kicked him out when drunk, sd it was my house,... and how I was angry he never bought me one... in my book an h would do that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I know it was big on lb's.

It is awful to live with an irrespeonsible h. But I did wear him down I guess and make him feel worse with my anger and demands. Big mistake... but I did not make him have an A or be an alcoholic, I know that. I can't change it o r cure it.

Thanks for reading anyone. I am trying hard not to call today, as I don't want to bother him... he is probably OK... I just hate to wonder.

HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Honey - I just think you are taking the blame for everything that has gone wrong - and finding excuses and excuses to justify your husbands actions !!! I don't want to sound like a b*tch but I just want to scream when I read your posts and I see what this does to you day in and day out... I mean stop look at it - is it worth putting yourself through this?? I am not saying get a divorce - I am saying try to get a life without him... That is what I am trying to do and though it is hard - each day I am thinking that I am going to be a little stronger than the day before - Do not call him - he blew you off yesterday - you went to his church as requested and he didn't show up - don't even give him the satisfaction of knowing what you did - or questioning where he was.... How do your boys deal with this??? You say in your signature line that the are the light of your life - which I am sure is true - so if that is the case - you need to stop worrying about your husband and concentrate on your life with your boys.......They have to be your top priority - not your alcholic husband you cannot help him - he has to help himself.....

Thanks Maw- I posted all that awful stuff about how we lived in his ALCoholism.. evictions and all.. so that some of you can see I am not a ever controlling +itch... but that I just want my kids to have a normal life and tried to get WS on that bandwagon.

He wants to live in funky druggie neighborhoods.. ow introduced him tot he one in Htown... he knew where they were in his home town Atlanta where we used to live.

ok, ENOUGH... i AM JUST TRYING TO HAVE A NORMAL .LIFE.. Sorry about the caps- he is very diff. to get to live normally.. he did it for a few yrs and now has royally screwed up again.

One night on a drunk.. he left town drove so far away.. with no money, he had to mow a church yard for gas money????? Now this is a person who grew up with LOTS of money in a great environment.. and who is a silver tongued devil and good looking, with all the advantages... money could buy as a teen, child... but what does he do with his life????? and my childrens and mine as his wife???

OK VENT!!!!! Can I scream.??? I wont say this stuff to him again, but this is why WHY, we got to this point.

NOwadays............I am spending LOTS of time with kids.. We saw tuxedo, cleaned house, both kids played with friends, went out to Luby's and made homemade pizza.. and I am working on sewing and finishing Halloween decs... We got the pmpkin, etc.

So I am focusing on KIDS, not him and ME TOO!

Thanks, H

Honey - good for you - you must really try to detach like everyone has been telling you - for your own good - You even said he was a big boy - if he is going to get into trouble then he is going to have to deal with it - I know that is is very hard - and basically bites that you cannot have that wonderful man right now that you were married to - but the simple fact is that right now you can't !!! and you deserve to be happy - you deserve to have a good life - you deserve to be taken care of for a change - !! See in my life all I want is someone who is going to make me and my children their top priority and you know it was my husband for the longest time and he has chosen not to do that anymore - not me him... - Just like your husband has chosen to live where he lives - !!! You have to continue to think about you and your children - and not him.....

[QUOTE...but that I just want my kids to have a normal life and tried to get WS on that bandwagon. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[QUOTE]..he is very diff. to get to live normally... [QUOTE]

[QUOTE]...but what does he do with his life????? and my childrens and mine as his wife??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference. Honey, you are TOO TOO focused on controlling his behaviors ~ even you statements make this very clear. Let go and Let God. WE didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it.

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-1 year old
Status: One Day At A Time

Hi Honey,

Just wanted to add a comment about a previous post about your H's wanting to feel in control.

Just as a personal opinion, I feel that both marriage partners should exhibit a mutually shared control and respect. The verse in Ephesians 5:22 that says "Wives submit to your husbands" is preceded by verse 21 which says "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Make whatever decision you feel is right for the marriage, but I would consider long and hard (as I'm sure you have) a frank and open discussion about "doormat" issues.

BTW, have you ever heard David T. Moore's "Love for a Lifetime Series"? He's on the web at Mooreonlife.com. It's a great resource on building marriage and other relationships.

Marriage should be a partnership ...not a pecking order.

Honey,
What did you do about church yesterday?
Hope things went well for you. Ladysing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lostinsimi... thanks.. I realize and want this.. but submit to someone who wants to live on drugs on alcohol, who doesn't pay bills or work to own a home, who messes up both of your credit, and criticizes you half the time.--- this is the problem...

bb, didnt know I was still trying to CONTROL.. I guess it looks like it... maybe i am. I wish I could fix it, I know I can't. I was venting about his behavior- trying to explain why.. I make decisions so much of the time. Because he doesnt make decisions for the good of himself or his family, HE IS OUT OF CONTROL...

spinning.

Anyway, THOSE days and times when he acts NORMAL.. are what troubles me. The back and forth from being a normal sober to a crazed alcohlic.. still someone I love in both situations.. SAD and HEARTbreaking.

I post about his evil twin and then I remember the sweet handsome, darling kind man I married.. he is in there.. I know it.

It is so hard to follow someone who is not leading in the right direction.

thanks for the kind support. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hugs, HONEY