<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

^^bump^^

Hello LIR

I was glad to see you were back after a few days but sorry that you are distressed.

As ever, I really don't know what to say to you. I am so sorry that you feel so sad and your H is withdrawn. Whether it is OW2 again or withdrawal, only he knows.

Do you have any idea when you may get to MC again? Do you really think this will help? It seems to me that if your H can't ackowledge or accept what he has done how will he work through with MC? Surely, fundamentally, he has to know that his A's are wrong and have caused severe damage to your M?

Well, I hope someone else wiser will be along soon to help you out here, but as ever, thinking of you in London.

Lisa

LIR,

Remember in these kinds of battles it always has to get worse before it can get better. The MC has done its work. To get everthing on the table and not locked up inside. Now the healing can begin.

Hello LIR,
I find I have many, many thoughts about you, and what you have said. Many times over the last few weeks I have wanted to say more but always felt constrained to offer support and keep still about everything else. I can't shake that "keep still" feeling even now.

For what it's worth, I have been praying for you daily and pleading with God to help your H, yourself, and your sons.

For almost two weeks I had a terrible feeling of dread when I would think of how things were going for you, but that feeling has lifted now and I feel more positive. I am not sure what that means but I feel somewhat better for you today.

I do have questions for you. With all that has happened, what do you project will happen with you and your family the next few months? Do you have a goal? Are you waiting to see what H will do? Do you even feel you can talk about it? You have spoken about many options as your feelings have unfolded the last month. I wondered where you were headed.

Please don't say anything that you are not comfortable with.

I had a dream Saturday that I was able to visit the UK and I came to see you and your H. I had called before and arranged to meet with you both and told you it would take about 4 hours. We sat and I started by asking you if you loved H, you said yes. I asked him if he loved you. He said yes, and said it with much feeling. I explained that the big problem seemed to be communication and perspective. ( I think the MC had it right but needs lessons in how to lead a discussion.)

We discussed those thoughts and how we have so much emotion for those that we love that we can't fathom their not understanding our point of view. Often we react with hurt and anger when instead we should express our love and desire to understand, and be understood. We discussed how in the world ( outside our family) we often give more time to explain and we are more kind sometimes to those that we are not close to. Manners and protocol teach patience in these situations. We discussed the high expectations we have for our spouse to understand and agree with us, and how it hurts when they do not. After a good grounding in these concepts, we began to explore the hurt feelings on both sides, always re-affirming the love you have for each other. Sometimes hurtful things would be said, and we would stop and talk about love again, and how we can express our feelings of hurt with love and kindness and not with anger. I felt you both made good progress and you both had the light of love in your eyes before we had gone an hour. We discussed many things, I can't remember the entire dream, though it seemed very vivid and real at the time. You both seemed to understand that what was destroying both of you was lost trust, and faith, and lack of communication. You (both) seemed to understand at some point that things could heal, and be much better than they had ever been. It was almost as though a light came on in both your hearts. I don't have an ending for it, It just kind of trails off in my mind with us still talking.

I don't understand why I would have this kind of dream. I am not trained to do this kind of thing and it is probably wrong to project myself in to something like this, but I know that it does mean that I care for you and hope for a good ending to your struggles for your marriage. I wanted to do a line by line discussion of your post but all that comes is "keep still."

I would so much like to say something to give strength to you, but words fail me.
Having said that, please know that I do care.

SS

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,
I was writing a long one and my computer crashed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
It looks like auto save was turned off. ( I write the long ones in a word processor.)

So here is the short version of my advice.

Don't take any wooden nickles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
And no, it doesn't have any thing to do with anything. It's all I could come up with.

I have to go, but will try and do it over again tomorrow.
Also, please get the movie "Polyanna" and watch it a couple of times, then play the "glad game."
You can grin (now) if it works for you.
SS

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Sorry, I won't get back today, I hate it when I don't do what I say I will. I know it's not a big deal, but I intended to do a little better.

Try to.......um.......try to be happy, dance and sing, or whatever works for you. I hope (and am praying) that things will get better.

SS

LIR

Just wondered how you were doing today?

Lisa

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR

REading your post and saw you were looking for books for a primary school in Nicaragua (sp) i teach school. maybe i could help S

Hi,
I still don't have any time, and won't for a few more days.

I worry about you, not that I think you can't cope, but no one should have to live with the doubts you are living with. I hope you find good right along and are happy from day to day. I hope your faith keeps you "up" most of the time.

I think I see many positive signs when you relate conversations, but I wonder if you see them and if they give you hope. I wish I had the time to discuss it with you. (Tried, but lost it, still haven't had time to reconstruct it.)

I was thinking today - if you were to have Jesus Christ come to your home to be your marriage coach, what approach would he suggest? It brings to mind many things - none of which I have time to post tonight.

I have to be up just after 5, so I had better go, but wanted you to understand that there is lots of good left in the world. I hope some of the good finds it's way into your Sunday afternoon.

SS

<small>[ November 02, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR, have read through your thread and can only offer the advice to wait and give your H space while being pleasant to him, and not demand answers at this point. I know its hard but if you want to have a full reconciliation then IMHO this is what your H needs now. I know I failed my H in the early days by demanding answers which he wasn't able to give. I wish I had found this board then- I may have been able to prevent H leaving and meeting this new OW.

I hope and pray you will begin to see changes.

Jante

Hello LIR,
I have a little more time today than I believed I would have, but I have been looking around, posting a few small posts and thinking about you. You are my biggest concern right now outside my own marriage and family. ( but let me say that others here are close.) Let me also say that when you have a friend that is in pain you want to help them find relief.

Your giver and taker are at war right now, and perhaps even you realize it is happening. You have been giving and giving and you want a rest. You are finding it increasingly harder to give to someone that doesn't meet your own needs in the ways you need them met.

Perhaps it would be good for me to bring up the mind set we get into when we study here on MB for very long. You and I expect more from marriage than most people do. It's true.
Once you come here and learn how marriage ought to be, you expect it to be that way. And I t can be that way, but it takes time and hard work. You have put in the work but are not seeing the results and it is getting to you.

I have been trying to see things from both sides as much as I can with what you post. What would you do if you found out your H was trying also, but doing it in a different way than you were looking for? How would it make you feel if you knew that? What would it mean to you?

I said I had some hope but I didn't know if you were seeing it, and perhaps I am wrong, I am not there and I don't get the body language and full range of visual cues that you get, but lets look at some things.

But on Tues. nite, late, he came and sat on the sofa and said "What are we going to do about this? I can't go on living like this anymore." It was like he had been brooding all day, and had sunk into a depression. Something had changed since the morning. To me it really sounded like he was saying he wanted to leave now, and I felt suddenly sick. All I could do was look at him and say "I don't know. I don't have any ideas." He got mad - he said "I'm trying to talk to you and that's all you can say!" I said I was out of ideas.

What I get out of this, that he is saying he wants to know how to proceed - what needs to happen for you both to be in love and work through things. It sounded like he was asking you to help him fix it.

I want to suggest a starting place. That is that you both start over.
What I mean is that there are a lot of things that have been said that have hurt feelings on both sides. I suggest that instead of fixing the relationship you had that hurt you both, you start a new one.

You send him a note that was a very good one about how you wanted to understand him. I thought it was exactly what needed to be said. I suggest you send him another telling him your feelings, and try to find some positive ones to talk about. Then I suggest you start dating again.

I realize it sounds simplistic but please think about it for a bit. Get a piece of paper and draw a sine wave on it. If you haven't studied electronics you won't know what that is. If you don't know, I will help. First draw a straight line across the middle of the paper from side to side.

Then start on one side of the paper at this line, and draw a curved line above the line, and then below the line all the way across, above and below, above and below, about 10 times - going all the way across. If I didn't explain it well enough, come back and tell me. This is more important that you might think.

This line represents how we look at life from day to day. I can see it in you, ( and in me, and my W, and everyone I know, this is not just about you.) Some days you are up above the line and you think there is hope. Some days you are below and you think it's over. The down days you see signs of H getting ready to leave. The up ones you believe maybe things might work.
I believe you should only talk to him on the up ones, it is even better if both of you are up. I think you should avoid talking about it, or making decisions on the down ones. I can tell you how to know if you are in a down one. If you think it won't work, you are down.

I know it' not this simple, but you have to have a start. Where I see you right now won't make it better. It seems to me that you are testing him again, but he still doesn't know it. You could start that note with something like this. " H, a few days ago you asked me what we needed to do, and I couldn't give any answer. I have a suggestion today. Lets go on a date, and have fun. Once we both felt we had something very special, I would like to find it again."

I know it is not fair for you to still do most of the work, but listen to your coach, Jesus Christ can be your coach even if he does not come in person. I think you were right about what he would say.

Now, lets turn your paper over and draw a straight line from the bottom left corner up to halfway up the right side. Turn the paper on an angle and draw a sine wave up that line. Now turn the paper back up and look at that line. It still goes above the line and below the line but notice how it still goes up. Some times it is below the line, but each time it dips below, it is still higher than it was the last time. That is where we want you to go. I still have the down days, and some of them are bad, but they are not as bad as they once were. I believe you can do that too.

I get up at am and pray every morning, read the Psalms and Mass readings for the day with a Bible scheme called Bible Alive - this really helps me start my day right.
Do you wonder if it is doing any good? IT IS ! ! !
It is like making sure you get enough vitamins. You don't really notice if you take them like you should ( or get them in your food) But, if you don't get enough, it shows up pretty clearly that you are not getting them. I hope you will do this all your life. Highly recommend it.

I don't have faith that my marriage WILL survive. I have faith that it CAN survive and I have faith that Christ loves us both no matter what happens.
I feel you are right, it CAN, but there is no guarantee. You have made a very profound statementt. You have a chance, and that is something. Many can't say that. I hope you do everything in your power to increase your odds of success.

You asked once if I had considered counseling as a vocation. I have not really. It is a real struggle for me to know what to say, and I always wonder if it does any good( , but I hope it does) . I hope I am not telling you things you don't want to hear. It also is hard for me to see marriages fail, and I don't know if I could take doing it full time, even if I was to get the training. I really hope I can be of some value to you.

I have one more suggestion, think some about when he said he couldn't live like this, and asked you what could be done. Think about it, and see if you can find some kind of answer that would make you both happy. I believe that when you said you didn't know you were expressing that you had already tried everything you could think of and now it was his turn but remember he doesn't see it the same as you do. I feel his asking was positive, even it it did not turn out for the best. If that ever comes up again, try to give him some hope, like you want some hope.

There are many other things you said that I would like to comment on, I think you have done well in many ways. I can't go back and re-create the other post (It was about twice as long as this one) and I have to go now today. I will just have to let you think about this one.

I really do suggest writing another note and to keep extending the hand of fellowship and love to him. I suggest you keep remiending him of the special feelings you once had and how you would like to feel them again.

SS

<small>[ November 04, 2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR

I am so sorry to hear you feel lonely today - I sense that you put so much in, it's like you're the only one doing anything, and although he's there in body, he's not in spirit, not meeting your needs, and barely communicating. Anyway, even if you feel lonely, you are not alone. There are all us folks out here in MB land <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I saw something on the TV the other day, and I don't know if this is perhaps something you could consider. I didn't see all of it, but it was a relationship chap, one of whose suggestions was that each S be given the opportunity to talk for 1 hour without any interuption on separate days. Say, you on a Tuesday, H on a Thursday. At first, I thought, this sounds really daft, communication is a 2-way thing, but the more I thought about it, I thought it could potentially work. I sense that so often, your H is withdrawn and doesn't talk to you, if you gave him the chance to speak, without interruption or judgement, it may make him open up about some of the things that are troubling him. Equally, if he were agreeable, it would give you the chance to tell him of your fears and worries.

LIR, I don't know you or your H, and this may be completely inappropriate for your situation, but I just thought I'd let you know. I don't know if I'm right, but if your H spoke to you for an hour, I sense this would be welcome by you.

Anyway, sorry if this is a nutty scam(!), but just to let you know that as ever, thinking of you in London.

Lisa

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>