I have probably over used the word wow, so I will just say that you are one amazing lady. It looks like you are getting very good at making your points with out LB's.

I realize I have been sitting here for quite some time not knowing what to say. I want to somehow convey love and support but I can't find the words to do it properly.

LIR, keep it up, please keep it up.

SS

<small>[ November 29, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>
.......What's the reverse of my "list"?

Marriage is not exclusive, but "open" and other relationships are allowable.
Physical abuse happens sometimes - you have to be able to get over it when it does.
Verbal abuse is something everybody does - yelling, losing your temper, calling names - most people do this when they get mad - it's not as bad as it sounds.
Emotional abuse - what is that really except one person complaining about something they don't like in the other person. This is just an excuse to nag your partner.
Accountability? Why should I have to answer to anyone? You should just trust me.
Emotional needs. Well, no one person can meet all of another person's emotional needs, so that brings us back to the top of the list again, and the solution to this one is right there.

Does my list in reverse sound like sound Christian doctrine? I don't think so. If H comes home with any answers similar to the above, which he has worked out with his "friend", THEN I can start questioning the "friend"s Christian beliefs (I think they are already a bit weak myself).

Ernest Hemingway once said that to be a good writer, your most important tool was a "built-in, shock-proof SH*T detector" - I think that goes for life, too - and mine is hard-wired right now, after all this...........

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well LIR, you done well. I am even further impressed.

So even his efforts to corner you into something bad failed. Good stuff. You even let him know you come to MB and it went right past him. Score!

But my favorite was your 'reverse list' above. It must be put in the Babble Book. Where is JDmac? I thought he was writing a book, this one's a keeper. LOL!!!

See how easy it is to see things clearly when you are not the one trying so hard to fit that square peg into that round hole?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well now regardless of how he approaches things, this is a definite turn and in the favor of the family. Even if he decides not to make it a go you will find that your conversation was a booster for you. I say that so you can be ready for whatever and I think you already are.

I am soooo proud of you. It is definitely harder for the A to hurt to like before.

Be well and safe.

L.

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

We all have these doubts, but you have had other experiances that have helped you to work on things. Hold on to those things through this darkness, you will come out of it with your faith intact, and you will know what to do. If it ever becomes time to change and do something else, you will know.

Hold on to the study and prayer you are doing. It is the sorce of much of your strength and clairty of thought. If you get where you don't feel like praying, rember the reasons for that are often not from inside us, then get down on your knees and pray until you do feel like it.

I really believe that you will know exactly what to do, with no doubt if you will continue to try, and to study and learn, and to pray.

I always want to say more but it's time to quit. You know what I am talking about already, just try to keep it in mind when the bad feelings come.

SS

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I am getting better at communication but I am having a hard time reading your H's mind and knowing what he is thinking right now. Yours is a little easier.

You have the concepts down well now. When you speak to H you know how to do it the right way, and you are able to use the skills you have learned to avoid LB's and to cover all the subject matter correctly. There is still a lot of worry because of the emotional investment you have in the M. This part is natural and I would worry more if you didn't show some of these signs before, during and after the conversations. Our whole life is wrapped up in the fabric of our M and we have a huge stake in making it work. Only those who don't think can give the marriage relationship up easily, and later when they do think, most regret it. So, anyway, you are doing about what I hoped you could do when I spoke to you about communication a few months ago. That part comes more easily for me now as I said, but my W still struggles with it for some of the same reasons as your H. I look at each R conversation as a way to learn about us, and improve our M, but she sometimes still looks at it as a personal attack on how she does things. After I remind her she is able to calm down and talk to me, but she still gets worked up sometimes.

I can see your H is starting to look at things in a different light, but I am concerned in that I don't understand his motivation. You still fear ( at times) that he is trying to make himself look good so he can leave with out anyone casting blame at him. The things he is saying point to reconciliation, but there must be other things that cause doubt. You have lived with him all this time, and know him and can see things we can't see. His posture, body language, that fact that he won't sleep with you, and probably many other things cause doubt in your mind.

I keep waiting for some other thing to come to light. I wonder what he thinks that your feelings for him are? I mean, does he feel that you are missing him and he is punishing you for your comments on abuse by not sleeping with you? Or does he believe you were about ready to leave and is staying away so as to not drive you further from him? Perhaps it is somewhere in the middle or something else. You have touched on it before, I wonder if you have any more thoughts about it?

Your comments are still colored by your feelings.
I said "I know you think that and that is what is wrong."
In one way, it is wrong, and if he had studied as much as you have, he would probably feel differently. On another level, all of us have our opinions about things and - well, we feel that each is entitled to his/ her own.
" I know you feel differently about it, but my feelings are so strong about this that we need to work them out in order to have a strong, loving relationship again. That's why I am talking to you about this, because I want us to be in love, and happy again., I don't want bad feelings between us"
I try to always turn things into positive affirmations. ( I don't always succeed, my W would tell you that if you spoke to her.) BTW, I am just trying to encourage, not lecture.

You have been good with the thank you's, and It really is good for him to hear it when he is willing to speak with you calmly. I would keep that part up.

I don't know - I just look back on the last 17 years and feel like I was suckered into his sick emotional life.
Yours is worse than mine was, but it is better than some of those that have put things back together. You already know this, because you have read here for quite a while. But this is yours, and it is hard. Really, we are all suckered into marriage. I can tell you that there are a lot of things that my W wished she knew before she married me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am just going round and round with this. he doesn't love me. He never loved me. He just wanted to get married and have children and play happy families and he elected me to share his life, but not his heart. That's why he has treated me so bad. And now that its all coming to pieces, he turns and blames me.
Actually, it is probably not that simple, but when we are down, we make it sound that way. I suspect that once you were deeply in love and that he was also. ??? Yes, No???

What do I do? Do I have to spend the rest of my life this way? I feel so unloved and it is so unfair.
No, you have freedom to do what ever you want, and I believe you have even had offers to help with the money to get you back to CA. It is the consequences you fear, for yourself and the children. Also, you are not convinced it is over yet. I know that, because YOU WILL do what you believe is best, and you are still there.

I think only a miracle could change our marriage into a true marriage. I think our marriage was a sham and built on sand from the beginning.
Look around, they are still happening, and are reported here often. No sure thing though, you have to do the work. ( sorry)

I love my sons. I am responsible for them since I brought them into this world and I'm trying to provide them with a stable family life - the life I didn't have. But right now it feels like I am trying to build in the middle of quicksand.
I don't know if this helps, but I feel that way sometimes also. I feel that we have a good M, but I feel that way some days. I can't imagine a relationship that doesn't have some quicksand. I am not trying to discount your feelings, and I know that things are not what they should be, don't get me wrong. I just want you to understand that your feelings are normal, and that you can get through them if you keep trying and H responds. Some days it looks like he is responding, so give it more time.

At least when H is here, our family life is cheerful and "normal", except for H sleeping in the spare room. So the kids are not feeling the effects. But the loneliness in my heart is now immense.
I wish I could do something about that part, but we can't really take the pain away. No words are adequate here, I am sorry I cannot..........cannot ........I don't even know what to say, please forgive me for not being more help.

I was wondering if having the talk we had the night before had helped him to feel better about me and about us. But maybe its just that he got a "fix" of the OW - OW2 back in town for a visit to English friends at Xmas? How do I know any more? Oooh, I'm going round and round. I think H has a counseling appt this am. It is so hard sometimes to go on with this.

Yes, it is hard. There is much you don't know. If you did know, would it change your plan right now? What would you do different?
I said once that I admire you because you are doing things right. I can't retract that statement, I still believe it.

SS

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

OOps double post!

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
,,,,,,,,
"So what you're saying is that I'm never allowed to get mad. I'm never supposed to get mad at anything you do, and I can't show it."
"no, that's not what I said"
"That's what you just said"
"No it isn't"
"Oh, here we go again! EVERYTHING with you turns into an argument. Here I am, trying to communicate with you, asking you a question about some rule you laid down for me, and all you can do is get mad and argue. I've had it!"
walks out.

This is the pattern of all our rows - in my view, almost every single one. He approaches me for something. I don't like the way he talks to me. I say so. He gets mad. He accuses me of starting an argument. He berates me for being argumentative and unreasonable. He leaves.

What is it that happens in this pattern? He is aggressive about how he approaches me - sometimes, as in the above example, he is decidedly abusive. I say I don't like it. He blows up. What he CAN'T STAND is hearing me say that I don't like being treated like this. He cannot tolerate me stating the obvious.

..............
LIR</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LIR,

What you said above is very true for many of us. Your H is 'sharing' his anger. Mine does also. In fact his whole family shares their anger with each other.

It has taken over 10 years for me to understand this illogic (I wasn't raised this way). So now I given him is anger back. When he begins to get argumentative and accuses me (just like what happened to you above), I raise the stakes.

Exactly what you stated happened to us about 3 months ago. He said 'you never want me to get mad?' I said: "yes". Taken aback..... I then proceeded to say, that is what I would like but since you are not perfect, I could work with you rerouting your anger into something constructive. Awhhh.....that one made him think. He has been much easier to deal with since then.

Another point is that I have to realize that I can't have a full discussion with him in 1 sitting. His mind does not digest all my info. We are definitely working on 2 different levels. H can deal with complex issues regarding machinery or his other areas of expertise (computer and stuff)......me I can go from work to deep family issues in a moments notice. H can not. I am NOT mechanically inclined - LOL!!! Therefore, I do acknowledge his abilities and in turn he does try to acknowledge mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
..........

The more I get better, the less control he has over me. The less control he has over me, the worse he feels. The worse he feels, the more he blames me. The more he blames me, the worse our marrige gets. Its a downward spiral that only he can halt.

Lets just say I don't have high expectations anymore.

LIR</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now LIR, I can really relate to this! I also had first and experience in this area. It was a frustrating cycle and I felt like the dog chasing it's tail.

In my case, I decided to put the onis of my healing on H. H already admitted that the whole A thing was really his fault for not being attentive to his family's needs due to his selfish desires. All that name calling and blaming stuff that the OW thrived on was not true. Not that I am a saint or anything.....no far from it but I was not the bad wife that I was portrayed as either.

It became real evident that the A needed hate to survive. I used this and said 'if you have the ideal relationship with your perfect partner, then there should be no hate. ' But the OW could not do anything but hate. Any friendly relationship between the H and I just brough out more of her claws and fangs (imagine that, a rabbit with fangs - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So I started to show that I was vulnerable. At times my inner strength had been the WS' excuse for leaving (she'll be ok without me, etc.). I showed him that no, I was human not super mom and that I needed encouragement and love also. I then put the onis on him to help me heal. With that on the table, dumping his anger on me became very awkward.

Also I did not have to deal with giving back his anger as much because I would show my deep wound and he knew he caused it. I no longer camaflouged my pain.

For me this helped.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR

Just wanted to drop by and let you know that I keep trying to catch up with your posts, and then there's more and I still don't get up to speed!!

Anyway, I think you're out there at the moment, and if you are, please know that I am thinking of you, and appreciate the support you give me, given that things have been so difficult for you recently.

I will come back again when I have more time and perhaps post a few thoughts - although it's not often that I think I have much of any use to say.

Wishing you well from rainy cold North London.

Lisa

LIR,
I believe you are now making progress. You have identified some areas that trigger his abusive actions.

I have to run out also but will be back to post more later.

Have nice day.

L.

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I am in retail, and this month for me decides if we can pay the bills, or - you know the other.

So, I can't do as many posts as I want. Yours take a lot of thought, so I am thinking, and I have something but it will take me 2-3 hours to type so......who knows when.

No, not offended. Don't think you could, your'e too sweet!

I think you are doing pretty good, but we can always do better? So, I still think about you.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>T... - read your truck and wall analogy and love it! Just one question for you - what do you think the truck FEELS - he may know he LOOKS stupid doing what he is doing, but as long as OP makes him feel good while he's doing it, he's going to want to keep doing it.

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LIR,

The truck is a truck and in the fog, I think it's sense of feeling is numb and causes the truck to do dumb things. About him not caring what others see, well that is quite true in the fog but it doesn't change reality.

I used to use the ostrich illustration about putting their head in the sand with their butt sticking straight up in the air for all to see yet they 'think' no one notices - LOL!!. Happens alot in the fog.

L.

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>