This is not the post I was going to do, it is fuzzy in my mind so either I am going senile ( pretty good chance of that) or God doesn't want me to post it.

You seem to be doing well with staying away from LB's and knowing what to say and do at any given time. I suspect it is not quite as easy for you as you make it look, and you have said as much. As I type the outline of the other post comes flooding back to my mind with clarity and I hope I can do it in the next few days - and that it is some help to you. I sometimes wonder about that last part. ( Later.......... after thinking about it, I hope I can do it in the next week, at least.)

I find I often wonder about your H ( and others) and what he is thinking and why he does things. This wondering is one of the things that I use to improve me, because I can apply the thinking to myself. I had a request from a family member a few weeks ago for some names and addresses of others in the family. I still haven't gotten them for her. I realized it is because I know it will take me 2 or 3 hours to make calls to the parents to get the addressed and phone numbers of all their children that are in college or married, and I don't have that much time in a block so I don't start. I could do it 10 minutes at a time ( like most of you gals do everything you do) but I don't multitask well. Same with some posts I would like to do, I could write them a minute here, a minute there but when my train of thought is broken, it is hard to come back to where I left off.

The bottom line is that I don't like to start something unless I know I can finish it and do a good job of it. One of the things I wonder about your H is if he is afraid to start working on the M with all his heart because he doesn't know if he can finish it, is afraid it won't work, and that scares him. I wonder if his own weaknesses are what he fears as much as any problem he has or may have had in the past with you. I think you can go further with this on your own without me commenting further.

I would bet you have had similar thoughts about it as you go along. What if this doesn't work? You have asked yourself the next question in the sequence, " what if I don't try?"
Your H hasn't got to that one yet, and you know from your studies that some never do until after it is too late and then they say " what was I thinking."
That " what if I don't try" is a really big one and you realize it, so you are trying for all you are worth. You have examined the consequences of failure and they are terrible. I think men - many men at least don't have the emotional wiring to do this kind of thinking. I think I mentioned my fathers cousin once said " I thought I could be happier if I D'vd my W, but it was the biggest mistake I ever made." Sometimes we only learn by experience. What a difference it would make if we could learn from others mistakes and not make them ourselves. I think that is one of the great benefits of reading scripture, that is, the lessons we can learn, and the mistakes we can avoid.

LIR, I believe you are ahead of many here in your ability to learn from others and apply what you learn in your own life. I believe you are ahead of me in that ability. It seems like the large problem for you is the coping with the frustration of the slow pace, and with the pain and hurt you experience trying to help someone that often rejects your efforts. Keep in mind that even though the cost of trying is very high, the cost of not trying is much higher.

SS

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I can't say I feel and understand your personal pain, but from the pain I have experienced, I can empathize with you and wish for improvement in your life so you can have a rest from it.

I hear you about time to post, and time away from my family, I know you care, but ( and I have a big grin on my face as I type this) I am a big boy and will be careful and not do the wrong thing. ( I hope you know I am teasing you, not making fun of you.) I project 2-3 hours because I am like your H, a perfectionist. I don't want to say the wrong thing, and I want to get things across correctly. Now, having said that, half the time I get it wrong anyway, but I have to do it so that it feels right to me, or I can't do it. It's not that I want to do 10 pages, it's just that It takes me time to get my thoughts in order and type them.

What I want to say addresses some of your comments in the last two posts you have done, and the ideas were in my mind 2 weeks ago, so I may be on the right track.

I do post here to help myself, it is a big reason, but I post here to give friendship and help ( I hope) to others. The story of the good Samaritan has been on my mind since I came to MB. That and the first and second most important commandments as given by Christ. The first is to love God with all our hearts, minds, and strength, and the second to love our neighbor as our selves. Please know I am not trying to claim any special ability to help anyone, but I expect someday to meet him. When I do, I don't want him to say " These people needed help, what did you do for them?"
I have balance in my life, we have a good family life, so don't worry about that. I do worry about many here that don't know their worth, and don't believe in themselves, and their abilities. I worry when there is no hope, and little faith.

Keep in mind as you go along that H really doesn't know what you know.
When you say that some men don't have the "emotional wiring" to do this kind of thinking, do you mean they can't visualize emotionally how bad they would feel, and how it would affect their children if they were to break up the marriage? I just take it as a given that they no longer care, or figure into the equation of hurt, the feelings of their wife. She's a write-off basically. So its only after its happened (the family break up) that they begin to understand the emotional damage to themselves and their children? While women can and do for see the consequences?
Yes, ( and later.....No,continued below) I have said before that we ( men and women) are different. On MB we get men that have been, or are in the middle of the threat of family breakup. Many begin to understand, but if you read around much, others, even with this great crisis upon them don't understand how to make their spouse happy. They are in the mode your H is in, get angry, and blame someone else. Don't change any habits, just offer to take the spouse back, and if rejected, throw up their hands, and say they tried. Now, to be fair some women have the same problems, but by far it seems to me to be a male problem. I would have to say that I don't think your H understands. I believe your fear is that he may never understand. ( later continued.......I don't just mean the family breakup, I mean the part where they say "My wife was a wonderful person, how could I have done that to her?" Some day he will know, and I hope you are both still married when it comes. In fact, I wish it would be right away.)

I often get ideas of ways for you to explain things to him. I don't say many because I fear you will get tired of it, and because you are often frustrated and the timing is bad. For instance, I wonder if you wrote him a letter with the points you explain ( mentioned above of why you feel rejected by him) and told him of your emotional distress, but also of your desire to reconcile and your inability to get past these things without discussion, I wonder if it would do any good. I think I could safely say (if he is like me)that he was trying to extend love and friendship to you, not just get $ex. Often over the years, I would do this same thing when I wanted to feel emotionally close to my W. It was a way of saying I was sorry, and that I was ready to be close again. She never got that from it, though I think she feels it now - now that I have learned how to make her feel close to me in the ways she needs me to. It also looks like he still doesn't understand what you are trying to tell him.

You once gave me credit for change, but I hold it as a gift of God to me. I was predisposed to act like your H. Funny, but I really wanted things to be better, and I thought I was doing what I could, and should, to make them so. I was about as wrong as I could be, but I had no idea. I am sure that at least part of the reason I encourage you to work with him are my own feelings of " what If my W had quit before I got it." I do hope I don't push to hard.
I should just do the post, for it will explain much of this better than these thoughts.

I am sure one day we will all meet beyond this mortal experience. When I see you there, I don't want you to say " where you when I needed you?" What I can do is very limited, but I intend to do what I am able to do. I am glad Orchid, Jante, and others have checked in on you. I meant what I said about your ability to apply what you learn. I know you don't feel it, but I can see it, and you should know it. Keep on yet a little while, I don't believe you are finished just yet.

SS

<small>[ December 16, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I have been thinking or trying to think of a lead in.

What were Christ's greatest struggles. Were they what he had to cope with externally - his ememies, his friends that betrayed him? Or were they his inner struggles to be equal to his purpose? We have a record of some of his prayers, tell me what you think.

SS

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 23, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hello LIR,

If I were visiting you and speaking to you, I would look at your face for signs on just how to open this conversation, but since I can't do that, I must just go on my feelings.

I woke up this morning thinking about some of my friends here. You kept coming to mind and I got my W and showed her your last two posts ( I show her on occasion, and ask her opinion on what I intend to post, but she still doesn't seem interested in posting.) and she commented that "they sound just like us, I can't believe this, it's like someone watched us and wrote it down." Her words exactly with no comment of any kind from me. This is mostly in response to the pain in your post dated Dec 21 at 12:17 PM.

Well, anyway, I thought a lot about you this morning and your reply to my "lead in." I had hoped you would reply as you did, so, lets talk a little more about it. This played in my mind early this morning almost like a script, and I hope I can do it correctly, and that it is a help. Let me say up front that I don't claim any great ability, but I think my W's comments communicate why I believe I can help perhaps a little.

Often I push you a little bit ( I hope it never feels like a lot) to change the way you word things that you say. It's not that I believe you are doing a bad job of things, or that I know just what to do, or what to say. It has to do with that lead in, or opening thought of a few posts ago. ( BTW, I believe you know the scriptures well enough that I won't quote chapter and verse for many of the things I say, but if you have any questions I can look them up for you. Also, I read the King James version of the bible, and the language is a little different, just so you know where I am coming from.) The Prophet Malachi speaks of the refiners fire and how God will purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver. If you have ever seen metal refined, and come out of the stamping mill, you will know what he is speaking of. The metal is heated is a liquid, the impurities are taken out, and it is cooled, and beaten into a useful shape. You are in the refiners fire right now. Christ went through it, and he came out purified and he completed his great work. In the end of the book of Matthew he said " all power is given me in heaven and earth."

Now, it's for you and I ( and I mean all of us when I say that) to have our turn. We get to go through the fire, and the stamping mill and come out useful, or we get to be cast off with the dross. Our struggle is mostly internal. You hear many here on MB say things about plan A like, "plan A can help to separate the WS from the OP but it is mostly about improving you." This is mostly about improving you. The Lord had many things he had to overcome, many enemies, friends that betrayed, friends that had to be taught over and over and over. I am going to discuss how he coped with things, and how he taught us to do it. You have studied his life, so you know that he was meek, and humble on most occasions. (and we will discuss the times he was not.)

He was taken in the Garden of Gethsemane by an armed party and when Peter cut off a soldiers ear to try and protect him, he put the ear back, told Peter to be peaceful. He said he could call on legions of angles to defend himself, but he did not do so.

He was condemned in an illegal trial, and was spit on, mocked, taunted and he did not revile back.

He went before the roman governor and was scourged, and had a crown of thorns put on his head. He remained silent except to answer a few questions.
Made to carry his own cross, he finally stumbled from the weight and could not continue on his own.

Hung on the cross and crucified and his parting words were " Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

His teachings:
From the sermon on the mount- I believe Matthew 5. I won't quote it word for word, I am leaving out some of the verses.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

From later in Matthew
Ye have heard it said by them of old, ye shall not kill.......but I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgment.

I think there are many more.
When someone shall compel you to go with him a mile, go with him twain ( the extra mile)
If someone shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn unto him the other one also.
if someone shall sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, give him thy cloke also. I am quoting mostly from memory, but I'll have to look this next one up.
From Matthew
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thine neighbour and hate thy enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them which despitefully use you, and persecute you: 45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.
and the last verse, and I take it as a commandment
48. Be therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

and Chapter 6
after the Lords Prayer
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. !5. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I know you know all of this already. So do I, but it seems hard to do. I am there, with you and your H, in the refiners fire. It's different for all of us, but we all get to go through it.

There are times when love must be coupled with boundaries.
Jesus taught and lived the virtues of love, and kindness, and patience. He also taught firmness and resolution, persistence and courageous indignation. These two sets of virtues seem to clash with each other.......love and indignation, but we need them both. If there is only one set, well, imagine righteous indignation with out love to temper it, and you know about love without boundaries which is very destructive in your own life. On two occasions, Christ took a whip and cleared the temple of money changers. On another, he called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, an generation of vipers.

I have tried to see when righteous indignation might be practiced. It looks like he used his anger on those that knew better, but purposely did wrong. . It looks like those that tried, were given help and love and were taught what to do. They were permitted mistakes and he responded with patience and love.

I struggle how to say this part, see, it is about us, about me, and my problems, you and yours.
How do I overcome MY own problems. Christ worked with others right along. He taught, healed, worked, forgave and all the time he was coping with his own internal struggles. You get to try and raise children, work, cope with H, and all of life's other problems all mixed together. When we have two of us working together in a marriage it is a great help and protection from the other problems of the world, but how in the world do we cope with loving our enemy when we live with them?
I am not really trying to teach you something here, I am not trying to lecture you, or say you need to do better. I don't' know exactly what you need to do.
How do we overcome the pain, the hurt, the anger when he who should be your strength and your help is the one causing that pain? You have tried to help him, you want so badly for this to work, for your children to have a happy family, and love and companionship for yourself.

I believe we came here to learn how to make our minds and bodies do the things which the spirit knows are best for us in the long run. I struggle with it myself. If we can clear our own souls of sin before we look too closely at others, if we can pay our own debts, before we press our debtors, what a glorious world this would be. God can give us the power to forgive and love. Gods Love is our pattern. We are to be as he is. The command is to be perfect, not just to try to be.

Now I ask you this - Does God give us impossible tasks? Would he ask something of us that we could not perform?
Matthew 7:7. Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find: knock and it shall be opened unto you. 8. For everyone that asketh reciveth; and he that seeketh findeth: and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. ............11. If ye then, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him.
I want you to know that this help is available, and that it is real, for I have found it. And this next verse seems to fit.
12. Therefor all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them.

I wanted to write this to encourage you, not to lecture you. Your task is to love him no matter what he does to you. I believe you can and need to set boundaries, but you need to do it with love. I wrote this to tell you that it's possible to be in the fire and not be burned up. I'm here too as are many, many on MB, and it is working for me. I know you can get answers, I have gotten them. I know anger can turn to love, I have seen it, and I have lived it, and I am living it - to an extent.

I don't know what will happen with your marriage. You don't either. Take the examples of two Apostles. Peter, and Judas. Both were given calls, both served him, he loved them both. Christ had foreknowledge of what both would become, but he treated them the same. I believe he mourned for Judas even as he (Christ) was sold to his death. I believe he wished all the way to Calvery that things would have been better for Judas. His whole life was lived for us, he is our example.

I wrote this for you, I want you to succeed. I wish for your H to succeed also, but you are here, and he is not, so I speak to you.

I think I will quote a couple more scriptures.
I encourage you to use this one as a test when you say things to him.
1st Corinthians 13:4.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind: charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil. 6. Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth: 7. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered:
9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
You are right, we have an example, and he doesn't lead by saying " go thither," he says "come, follow me." He says....... that he did it..... and with his help, we can do it. It's a promise given by someone that has the power to make good on all his promises.

You can encourage him, love him, teach him, but you can't do it for him. You CAN do it for you - with a little help. Help him all you can, but no matter what happens to him, lets make sure you are where you want to be.

SS

<small>[ December 21, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss - thank you so much for your reply. And I appreciate you showing my posts to your wife - its hard for me to believe that you were ever like my H - I know that things don't change overnight, but would you say that the marriage you have with your wife today still resembles in any way that marriage you had before you made changes in yourself? I am surprised at your wife's response - I feel right now like I am going through this time with my H alone, and that he is somehow different (worse) than "normal" men.

I am going to reread your post many times - I am sure that every time I read it, something new will stick out at me. For now, it "jives" with what I have been feeling about myself - that although I say I have forgiven, and I want to forgive, and I have tried to forgive, I know that I am still eaten up with anger, and I really just don't know how to forgive. I know that this "feeling like a victim" is part of the co-dependency cycle, so I am now trying to be aware of the feelings I have, and trying to suspend blaming my H for everything - but I still feel so angry. Deep in my heart, I have been examining my conscience - I know that whenever I die, I will have to go before God and account for myself and how I behaved - and I could die tomorrow in an accident, so its not as if its something I can put off - and deep in my heart, I do blame my H for putting me through this hell, and I am angry with him for being unrepentent, and I am finding it impossible to be loving towards him anymore. I just don't have it in me - its all I can do to be civil, but affectionate? Its just not there anymore. Complimenting him? Not there either. Sex? The thought repels me. I am just totally turned off, and I'm having a hard time with myself, trying to get a grip both on these feelings, and the fact that I am so unforgiving.
I am also trying not to feel sorry for myself about any of this. I chose this man, and I have accepted the marriage on his terms as best I could for a long time. I haven't walked out yet, so I can't blame him for the fact that I am still here.

I just don't know how to deal with any of this anymore.

H and I went to another party last night. H came home from his xmas shopping and said he wanted to go to this party we had been invited after all. A few hours earlier, he had said he didn't want to go, so I had called our friends and told them we weren't coming. He comes home 45 minutes before the party and says he's changed his mind. We went and it was a nice party - he played xmas carols for everyone and we both enjoyed ourselves although we did not spend time together.

When we were leaving, he mentioned, almost casually "I am going to see X tomorrow, perhaps have some dinner with him. He has been away for 3 weeks." Now, this is the "friend" who was the subject of my "Autonomy in Marriage" thread. This is the "friend" who I had that rancorous exchange of e-mails with. This is a BIG deal and threatens to blow what is left of our marriage clean out of the water. I am expecting severe repercussions from his meeting with this guy tonight, so please say some prayers for us today. My own prayer is that God will reveal this "friend" to my H for who he really is, and that God will be with my H and help him through the pain of reading my e-mails to this guy, then protect me and us from the fallout.

I have talked over all the e-mails with my counselor and I am ready to talk them through with my H, should he want to do that, but I don't think my H will want to do that - I am afraid he will just be totally shocked at the things I said, both about him and about our marriage, and use the whole thing as the final excuse to drive the nails into the coffin of our marriage.

Anyway, I figure my H was trying to tell me that he was going to talk to this guy about the e-mails, otherwise why would he have mentioned that he was going to have a meeting with him? So I said that I had talked them over with my counselor and I was willing for him to see everything that was said and that I would talk about it with him if he wished - I said I had always been honest with him and that he knew that I had already proved that to him in the past. I said that it would not make easy reading for him and I regretted having contacted the guy and told him the things I had told him, but that I would not hide anything from him. I said that it was not for me to say what he should think - it was best for him to read it all and then deal with it in his own way. I said that the best thing would probably be for him to ask his friend if he could read everything, because I had already given the guy permission to show my H everything that I had said, but I had told the "friend" that I would not show my H what HE had written without his permission, since I realized that he had spoken to me in confidence. Its really up to him if he wants my H to see what he wrote to me. I said I would give my H copies of everything if he wanted them after he had spoken to his friend, if he wanted to take them and discuss them with his counselor.

I also asked my H one question. I asked my H if this row I had with his friend had anything to do with the anger he felt towards me. H said no. I then asked him if the friend had told him about it and H said yes (when I asked him that before, he said no, that he was hearing it first from me - I know that's a lie). So I asked him what the friend had told him and if he had seen any of the e-mails. H said the only thing the friend had told him was that I had said he was "out of his depth", and that's all. So it is exactly as I thought - this friend told H that I had e-mailed him, told H that he e-mailed me back to try to help, and then told H that I had insulted him - other than that, my H knows nothing of what passed between us, except what I have told him - which was the truth - that I e-mailed the friend in desperation, that I told him my H had been physically aggressive with me numerous times and that I couldn't handle it anymore, and asked his help in trying to tell my H that this kind of behaviour was not acceptable, that I had said I couldn't accept my H's private friendships with other women and that my H guards his privacy ferociously and keeps control of his own money in his own bank account. I told my H that this guy had responded by telling me it was too serious an issue for him to handle, but that regardless of that, in his view, my ideas on relationship were "extreme, unrealistic and totally undesirable", which I felt was completely off-base for him to weigh into me like that, especially when I had contacted him asking for help, and my counselor agrees.

I feel pretty rocky right now. By e-mailing that guy, I opened a whole can of worms, but I feel I also flushed a snake out from under the bed. And now all the worms are about to come crawling out of the can, and the snake could be a cobra and rear up to bite back! But I will just take whatever comes. I have put my money where my mouth is, and if that isn't good enough, well, so be it.

I am expecting my H to be REALLY upset tonight. And maybe he will never get over it, and it will end our marriage. But if it doesn't, it may take him days or weeks to calm down, then maybe we will be able to talk about it, and have an honest look at what the implications are.

My counselor says that this "friend" constitutes an extremely dangerous threat to our marriage, that he is not who he is representing himself to be, and that my H is very vulnerable right now, so please pray for my H.

That's all for now - thank you all for reading, and to anyone who is praying for me and my H. There are a lot of issues going on here, and I will try to post more as best I can. Thank you especially ss - you know that I will read your post again and again, and take on board whatever I can, but it is slow for me - I know what you are saying - that there are things I can do to change the way I talk to my H, to not "bite back" in frustration and anger and bitterness and blame. I do do that sometimes - like yesterday. I am trying not to. I am trying to change. But I am also trying to not be in denial any more about the ways that he abuses me. So I feel pulled in two directions sometimes.

Anyway, I will keep trying, that's all I can do. Thanks for trying to help me, again.

LIR

Oh, LIR, I worry about you right now.
Once you said I could be more help if I could remain objective. I have a hard time doing that. I admit it, but I don't know what to do about it.

its hard for me to believe that you were ever like my H - I know that things don't change overnight, but would you say that the marriage you have with your wife today still resembles in any way that marriage you had before you made changes in yourself?
Yes. Not as often, not to the same degree, but yes. Wed night, and Thurs morning we had - well, not an argument, but a discussion, both of us in tears. She felt like I was angry, I felt like she didn't care about my feelings. I prayed by myself Wed night and all I could say for 5 minutes was " Oh God, help me, Oh God help me." and I said it over and over again. I never could get it together in that prayer, and I finally ended it and thought for a time before I could do a normal prayer. I was an hour late for work Thursday morning so we could talk about it. It's not solved, just postponed.

We do better MOST of the time. It is a terrible cycle, but we have broken the downward cycle and are now on the upward one - that I had you draw once. When I said I was in the fire with you, I was not speaking lightly, I am still there.

The cycle for us was that she seemed to ignore me, didn't want to spend time with me, didn't want me to touch her, and then I would get angry, and she would react by becoming more distant. I thought If I pointed out to her that she was distant, that she would come back. She thought if she pointed out to me that I was angry, I would be nice.

Neither of us had a clue. We were in the cycle that you are in. Remember that I am not trying to tell you what to do, or that you should not set boundaries. I just want you to be able to do what you do out of love, not anger. You will never heal if you can't learn to do that.

I am surprised at your wife's response - I feel right now like I am going through this time with my H alone, and that he is somehow different (worse) than "normal" men.
I don't know if he and I were equal. That is impossible to know, but remember that Christ treated Peter, and Judas both the same. We don't have the knowledge that he had, and it is good, for if we knew that something would not end well, we could probably never develop the patience we need to have, or treat people corectly at all times. So, you don't know, but if you can learn to treat him as though it will work, no matter how bad it gets, you will get the peace you seek. Remember again, I am not saying that you can't set boundaries, or that you can't protect yourself. I wish I could lay it out for you and tell you exactly what you should do, but that is part of your refining process, and I really think you will be able to work it out. If you say that I was/is somehow better than he is, I think you give me to much credit, but I don't know, and how could I, or how could you? There are many of us that will only be saved after a great labor of love by someone like my W, or like you. I know you don't want to be put in that place but you are already there, and you can't really just quit.

.......... although I say I have forgiven, and I want to forgive, and I have tried to forgive, I know that I am still eaten up with anger, and I really just don't know how to forgive. I know that this "feeling like a victim" is part of the co-dependency cycle..........
That is where we were - and your H feels exactly the same as you do only he thinks it is you that has the problem. We were there, oh how I know what you are talking about.

so I am now trying to be aware of the feelings I have, and trying to suspend blaming my H for everything - but I still feel so angry. ..........., and I am finding it impossible to be loving towards him anymore. I just don't have it in me - its all I can do to be civil, but affectionate? Its just not there anymore. That can change with prayer. I don't know if God wants it, for he knows what is best, but if he wants you to love H, and reconcile, he can make that change in your heart if you pray in faith. ( remember, I said if he wants it, I don't claim to know that.)

Complimenting him? Not there either. Sex? The thought repels me. I am just totally turned off, and I'm having a hard time with myself, trying to get a grip both on these feelings, and the fact that I am so unforgiving. I am also trying not to feel sorry for myself about any of this.

Part of this is the giver, taker theory. If you have read HNHN, there is a story that mimics this almost exactly. You have given so much for so long with nothing in return that you are burnt out. If I am right, you have a hard time being as civil to him, as you are to almost anyone at the library that walks up to you and says hi. I believe to work on this one, you should try to do things that don't drain you so much. Smaller things, but still things that he likes. Then you should ask him point blank ( nicely, and I said this to get you to smile, wink, wink. ) to do things that you need to restore your balance. Some of the problems you describe ( his not preparing a meal when you had been gone) happen all over the world daily, but if you are deeply in love, you would not even mention it. I am like him in this respect, and often I just don't pay attention and sometimes i forget even when she asks me, and I say I will do it.

I chose this man, and I have accepted the marriage on his terms as best I could for a long time. I haven't walked out yet, so I can't blame him for the fact that I am still here. I just don't know how to deal with any of this anymore.
Pray to find a counselor that can help.
Pray for your heart to change.
Pray for his heart to change.
Pray as if all this depended on God alone, and then work as if it depended on you alone, and between the two of you, ( and the rest of us that pray for you) you will know how to manage. Ask for a feeling in your heart to know that this is true, I believe it will come. You never did tell us about your dream, and other things that happened to you, but you once said you knew you had to try. See if you still need to do so.

I am expecting my H to be REALLY upset tonight. And maybe he will never get over it, and it will end our marriage. But if it doesn't, it may take him days or weeks to calm down, then maybe we will be able to talk about it, and have an honest look at what the implications are.
You will get the help you need, I am sure of it. I don't know many things, but I do know that God really is on the other end, and that he cares, and has the power to help. I know that he always does what is best for us. If you don't know that for sure, please trust me on it for now, for I know it.

............it is slow for me
We always think it is different for others, and that no one else's pain comes close to ours, but I believe I understand you very well. Remember also that you and I haven't sweat blood yet, so someone had it worse than we have it, and he says we can do it.

LIR, please know that I know you have endured much, and I don't want you to have this pain. I know you have taken abuse, and that you are still taking it. I want that to end for you. Christ was not able to change the hearts of everyone, only some. I believe most of his pain came from knowing that some of us that he loves very much, won't come and be saved. He didn't save everyone, but, he was able to do what he was sent to do. I want you to win that battle going on inside yourself. That is where your happiness lies.

I also want you to know that if you came back today and said it was over, and you were done with it, I would try to help you through that. I am not trying to tell you what to do, just help you find your way, as I find my own way too.

In your studies, see if you can find some scriptures about how he can and will help us. I know that he lives. Not lived - lives. That alone should tell you what you need to know about getting help from Him.

SS

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear ss -

If you ever wanted a sign that you are on the right track, I have it for you - I opened my BibleAlive this morning and the first reading is Malachi 3: 1-4 - about the refiners fire.

Thank you for coming back and posting to me again - and for sharing your own experiences - I would like to take some time to respond to you, but I don't have enough time right now - I am writing this while H is out for a few minutes - I may be able to get back to this on xmas Eve - H will be gone overnight, as I already said, and it will only be YS and I here alone - after YS goes to bed, I may be able to put some thoughts down.

I hear what you are saying - about the cycles we are in, and the cycles in your own marriage - I don't find it disheartening that you tell me this - I find it heartening that you and your wife struggle with similar issues, but have got past the place where H and I are now, and are still trying in love to understand each other. It sounds to me like you, like us, have different ideas about communication and, with the best of intentions, miss each other's signals - like two birds of different species, doing their own mating dance in front of the other, which the other doesn't understand (what an image just shot into my mind! LOL) - what is still there is the love.

With us, the love is being drowned out by the anger - and yes, I DO have a problem with that right now - like you said, I am totally burnt out, and I don't have any feelings left for H - I am just praying we can resurrect something for each other in counselling.

To update - we got the letter this morning offering us a counselling appointment with the marriage counselor and H has balked - says its too daunting to start something new with a whole new person, and he doesn't want to do that (he's the one who asked me to find someone because he said he doesn't have any ideas). Now he says he wants us to stay with the same IC, but can we all meet together - he says his other IC said she did this sometimes - meet with 4 people - the two warring parties and their IC together. Sounds a little strange to me, but I'm willing if that's what he wants. He came after me in the house, following me around, saying all this, and said "I want to say something and not be emotional about it" - so he IS trying, I can see that, I am just so frustrated and I don't have any energy left - I feel beaten to a pulp inside and hardly have the brains left to react to much of anything! I have a counselling appt on 8 Jan and I said I would ask my counselor about it - I asked him if he had a fixed date for a further appt with his counselor and he said no, his counsellor is away for the holidays, but he'll get back to see him around the same time I do. I am trying not to be pessimistic, but this isn't exactly very firm, is it?

Last night, our close friend called and talked to me for a long time (the auntie) - she is very supportive of me and of our marriage - she said she doesn't call him, and he hasn't called her for a very long time. I suggested it was OK for her to call him, as I thought he was very depressed and withdrawn. She agreed that the situation is nearly intolerable and that he needs to be accountable for himself, and that he should stop "sitting on the fence" (her words) and make a decision about what he wants. I also told her about the e-mails between me and my H's "buddy" and how worried I am about the influence this guy has over my H. She was very much on my side in this. I did feel that she offered me genuine loving support.

H called from his cellphone later to tell me he was on the way home, and he seemed cheerful. I don't know if he talked with his "buddy" about the e-mails. I asked him if he wanted me to wait up and he said no, so I was in bed when he got home.

I had a nice time last night with OS and YS, so I also built some good memories.

I will pray for both you and your wife, ss - I am glad you showed her my posts. Thank you again for your support and I'll come back when I can, OK?

Take care,
LIR

Just had a brief convo with H - he said that "by the way, just to make the record clear, "buddy" DID show me the e-mails - he forwarded them to me - anyway he says that you and he apologized to each other, and so the matter is closed. I am not interested in history, so I as far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with me anyway."

"Well, what exactly did he show you? Did he show you everything?"

"I don't know - he showed me something and he said you offered him an extensive apology, so its closed as far as I can see."

I am not happy with this. I suspect "buddy" hasn't shown him everything, so H still doesn't have all the info to make up his own mind, but "buddy" has managed to convince H that its all over and done with, so there's no point in dredging up "history". "Buddy" keeps his reputation intact, I come off as the insulting wife who "made an extensive apology". H is tired and doesn't want to deal with it anymore - denial again. "Buddy" still has power over H.

Do you think that since H said "buddy" showed him everything, that it would be OK for me to just leave copies of these e-mails for H to read? Or is H saying he saw it all and forgives me for what I said, and wants to move on? H seems to be saying that he wants to look to the future, and doesn't want to look back. H also said YS asked why we are "arguing" - with the implication that since I persisted in continuing a conversation, that it upsets YS and so I am still the source of discord in our home. Like "auntie" said last night, H is someone who will go with whoever makes it easiest for him, which is not such a good thing in a person. "Buddy" strokes H's ego, and has managed to get away with throwing a torch into our marriage and come off scot-free!
I'm not happy with this, but if I sit on it and try to talk about it later, I get accused of "not being able to let go of things", and if I persist, I am accused of "continuing to cause problems".

ss - you said one thing - trust in God. I am realizing that my own R with God is affected by the loss of my father to Dv - I often relate to God as if he were my father - not trusting that he will be there. Deep down, I have the voice that says "There is no-one there for you, you are on your own, you are the only one who can protect yourself, so it is you who will have to act." Intellectually, I know that God is there. Emotionally, I have a hard time waiting for things to happen in God's time, because it feels like I am alone - do you see?

Is this a time when I have to leave it and find a way to trust that God will deal with this "buddy" in his own way? How do I do that?

LIR

I came today to wish you Merry Christmas, but I may as well comment on a few things.
( since I almost always do anyway)

He came after me in the house, following me around, saying all this, and said "I want to say something and not be emotional about it" - so he IS trying, I can see that, I am just so frustrated and I don't have any energy left - I feel beaten to a pulp inside and hardly have the brains left to react to much of anything!
If you want to relax a little bit for a few weeks, I have a suggestion for you. Often we spend a great deal of energy working to change things that we don't have control over. I suggest you write down your worries, just go ahead and start, and write at random everything that comes to mind. From what to feed YS for dinner, to how you are going to get your degree that you seek. After you get them down, then take a good look, and transfer to another list the ones that you feel you can really do something about. I believe this will help with this question Is this a time when I have to leave it and find a way to trust that God will deal with this "buddy" in his own way? How do I do that? You need a rest, and if you will spend the next two weeks working only on things that you can really change, it will feel like you are getting somewhere. You can still pray about the other ones, and then let God worry about them. So, to summarize, take from your list the things you feel you have the power to change right now, and work on them. Put the others in God's hands for now - mind you, just for now, you can still go back to them.

I have another question for you. In your post above, and I have quoted it already, you say that you can see H is trying. We know from your past posts some of the issues you have with him, and some of the baggage he has brought from his family to yours. I wondered last night and this morning - just how would Christ see your H. Would he include him in the "generation of vipers" statement, or would he encourage him and teach him, and love him. Would he see him as a lost cause or someone that can be saved? I wonder how you really see him, through all the anger and pain you are feeling. I think your answer to how Christ would see him may tell you your true feelings, and that they may be better than you think. Sometimes pain obscures our vision, I once spoke unkindly to a DR that was trying to take my pain away, but had not yet been able to do so. I didn't mean what I said, from the middle of that physical torment.
Well, think on that one too. I really feel you may have more good feelings for him than you give yourself credit for.

I will pray for both you and your wife, ss - I am glad you showed her my posts.
Thank you, you are very kind, and If we get a few minutes, I may show her more and ask her to comment, but we have ALL of our 8 children here for Christmas, plus a son-in-law, plus a future daughter-in-law. SO, we'll SEE. ( LOL) It's crazy at my house right now. That's why I am at WORK. ( and Wendy, if you read this, I am just kidding, I am on lunch hour, and BTW, your are really sweet. ) JFYI, Wendy is my W, and she is sweet, but also fun to tease.

........you said one thing - trust in God. I am realizing that my own R with God is affected by the loss of my father to Dv - I often relate to God as if he were my father - not trusting that he will be there. Deep down, I have the voice that says "There is no-one there for you, you are on your own, you are the only one who can protect yourself, so it is you who will have to act." Intellectually, I know that God is there. Emotionally, I have a hard time waiting for things to happen in God's time, because it feels like I am alone - do you see? Yes, I believe I do. Faith is often a difficult thing. You have read of Christ, and his sacrifice, and you have some feelings about that. He prayed to his Father, and when asked by the apostles to "show us the Father," he said, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father." To me, that tells me what I need to know about God, the Father. The communications I have had with God have been mostly feelings. Right now, I feel very strongly that if you you will ask him " Father, are you there, and will you help me?" when you pray, you will have an almost overwhelming feeling of love come into your heart that will tell you what you need to know. Faith - well, faith means we are not often visited by angles, but he has ways to reasure us.

I read a chinese proverb once about someone that was surronded by devils. A passer by happened to see them and remarked to a friend, that man must be very wicked, for he is in the company of many devils. Later, they came across a man with only one devil and he remarked to his friend that this man must be very good because he only had one devil. The wise friend remarked that he had it backwards. The man with many devils was a very good man, and the devils were ganging up on him trying to have an effect. The man with only one was so wicked that one devil could handle him all alone.

Remember that with great trials, can come great help. You seem to be covered in devils some days, but that should give you some measure of hope. Look for help, ask for it and expect it. Recharge for a couple of weeks, enjoy the good in your life. Think about what you have learned. Remember that we are praying for you, and that you have friends unlooked for that care a great deal about you. God can send help that you have no knowledge of, because he really does love you. I believe he has the power to make that known to you.

Sometimes I think I go on way to long.

Here's to a very Merry Christmas to your family - from ours.

SS

<small>[ December 24, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks so much for your Christmas greetings, ss - and to all my friends at MB - I'm just checking in before I go to bed - presents all wrapped - kitchen clean - YS asleep - H gone and not going to be back until 8pm tomorrow. H surprised me big time this evening. He had asked me for a Christmas list weeks ago and I just decided to write down lots of things, since I didn't expect him to get me anything. But it looks like he got me EVERYTHING I wrote down, and more. Including a specific, really nice pair of earrings which I know he had to go looking for. He wanted me to open one present tonight before he left and chose that one. We have been at drawn swords until today, so now I am really confused.

Of course, I'm not so stupid that I can't tell he is really trying hard, and hoping to make me happy. Its just not what I expected at all. I kissed him and thanked him for the earrings - he could see that I am really touched. I am glad now that I managed to think of a few things for him, even though I have been so mad at him.

Christmas isn't a magic wand, but at least it shows that we are both able to put things aside and still try to do something to make each other happy. Still, I am feeling a little startled at how many presents he has got me and not quite sure what to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to relax a little bit for a few weeks, I have a suggestion for you. Often we spend a great deal of energy working to change things that we don't have control over. I suggest you write down your worries, just go ahead and start, and write at random everything that comes to mind. From what to feed YS for dinner, to how you are going to get your degree that you seek. After you get them down, then take a good look, and transfer to another list the ones that you feel you can really do something about. I believe this will help with this question Is this a time when I have to leave it and find a way to trust that God will deal with this "buddy" in his own way? How do I do that? You need a rest, and if you will spend the next two weeks working only on things that you can really change, it will feel like you are getting somewhere. You can still pray about the other ones, and then let God worry about them. So, to summarize, take from your list the things you feel you have the power to change right now, and work on them. Put the others in God's hands for now - mind you, just for now, you can still go back to them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for this suggestion - its true - you have picked up on the fact that I have been feeling overwhelmed and losing strength. I am tired and even my thoughts are coming out blunt and short. I will do this - make a list and start to work on the things I can do and put all the others aside for the moment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have another question for you. In your post above, and I have quoted it already, you say that you can see H is trying. We know from your past posts some of the issues you have with him, and some of the baggage he has brought from his family to yours. I wondered last night and this morning - just how would Christ see your H. Would he include him in the "generation of vipers" statement, or would he encourage him and teach him, and love him. Would he see him as a lost cause or someone that can be saved? I wonder how you really see him, through all the anger and pain you are feeling. I think your answer to how Christ would see him may tell you your true feelings, and that they may be better than you think. Sometimes pain obscures our vision, I once spoke unkindly to a DR that was trying to take my pain away, but had not yet been able to do so. I didn't mean what I said, from the middle of that physical torment.
Well, think on that one too. I really feel you may have more good feelings for him than you give yourself credit for.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good question. I guess I would say that when he is at his worst, I see my H as that one lost sheep that Christ came to go after. I have always seen my H as one who was worthy of love, never someone deserving of hate. I just don't know how to give him the kind of love he seems to need. He seems to need a lot more than what I am able to give him.

Well - you really do have a full house! I wish you and your wife and all your family a very happy Christmas.

It may be a while before I can get back to post - we also have a busy week coming up - we'll be visiting friends on the 26th, then have our nephew visiting from Canada 27th-29th. Also, OS is home from school from tomorrow until 6 January (my OS is a chorister and is in boarding school in our home town - so he sings through until afternoon on Christmas Day - a lot of people ask me how we can stand him being away, but the honest to God truth is that he LOVES it and is having the time of his life - and no-one knows how grateful I am that he has been there, with all the stability that life has given him, instead of at home these last 18 months).

I have to say, ss - that in these last few months, since my friends have become aware that H and I are having problems, I have noticed how my friends H's have turned a different kind of interest on me - its partly that we are all facing similar Mars/Venus problems in our own marriages, partly a time of life, I think - I have had, lets see, 4 husbands take a kindly interest in me, and been chatted up in an "interesting way" by our OS school headmaster (he doesn't know we are having problems). Now, I'm not saying I am in a place where I am going to do anything wrong here - each and every one of these couples is a dear friend of mine, and the wife of each of these couples is someone I am deeply fond of. I am saying I am noticing the interest their husbands have started to take in me - in two cases, it seems the husbands want help finding ways to communicate with their wives. One husband seems pretty clearly interested in me. Believe me, I am NOT in the marketplace for anything, and NEVER with anyone married! EVER! But its a little wierd, isn't it? I guess I would say that it has made me realize that I am still an attractive woman at 45, so I don't feel so bad about myself when I think of H chasing after 21 yr olds like a sick puppy. Anyway, I am steering clear of anything personal, but I am happy to give the kind of advice I have learned here at MB - if they try to talk to me about their wives, or their marriages, I try to steer them onto talking about emotional needs and ask them to start thinking about what they could do to learn how their wife "ticks" - I suggest they try to find out what she needs, and suggest they need to try meeting each other's needs in the way the other would like, and see what happens. I don't talk about myself. But its kind of interesting the minefields we end up tiptoing through sometimes.

I have been thinking about you and your wife and what you said about "forgetting things", which you have mentioned before. I have some thoughts about this, and some examples from our married life, but I will have to give it some more thought, then I'll post it to you.

All the best for a Merry Christmas.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ December 24, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR sorry I didn't get here before to wish you a very happy christmas but I trust that for you it has been both peaceful and joyful. Catch up with you after the holiday season!
Jante

Happy Holidays LIR!!!

I have very little time.

Just thought I would check in on my friends wish them joy.

I tend to check in on rare occassion. Everyones sick at the house. 3 year old just is getting over pnemonia, 1 year old just getting over upper respiratory virus, now my poor wife has it and has to deal with sons. I help out the best I can, but no one on earh is as good as a mom. Especially my kids' SUPPER MOM!

Bye for now. I will be out here in cyber-space.

Hello everyone -

Thank you for the xmas greetings, jante - I hope you also have been able to build some good Christmas memories, and thank you for popping in on me.

NDL - So good to hear from you! I often think of you and hope that you and your wife are in recovery - I'm sorry you are all sick - but I hope things are now on the mend. Let us know from time to time how you are - you do sound good!

As for me, am I a total idiot or what?

I just got on the computer to check up on my friends at MB, and found that H didn't wipe his history, so I could have got into his Yahoo acct to check on what's going on - but as soon as I saw it there, my heart started thumping like mad - trigger, trigger, trigger - and I ERASED it, so I couldn't look at it. I hate this, I hate this, I hate this!

H gave me a lot everything I put down on my Christmas list this year (is he trying to tell me something?), and we are now back sleeping in the same bed again after 2 and a half months of sleeping in separate rooms. On Christmas night, he said "Well, you know X is coming on Friday, so I can't sleep in the spare room, I don't know what you want me to do about it."
I said, "Well, I don't know what you're doing in there anyway - you haven't really told me why."
"Because! And anyway, after that last time we tried, it wasn't very successful." (referring to a couple of weeks ago, when he tried to come back to bed with me, and I rejected him).
I said, "Well, I have no objection to you coming back to sleep in our bed, its just that I need you to know that I am not just here for sex. Anyway, we have had a nice day, so we don't have to talk about things right now, lets just enjoy our Christmas."
He said, "Well, I wasn't thinking that anyway." (that I was just there for sex)

So he came back to bed on Christmas night. And we haven't had sex. I think we both still feel insecure, and Christmas isn't a magic wand which makes it "all better now". But at least we are back sleeping in the same bed.

What I'm kind of concerned about is that he still hasn't given me what I want - an acknowledgement that what he did was wrong and a commitment to not do it again. A NC letter to OW2 - a recognition that he has hurt me, nor any change in the way he handles money. Again, all this should be dealt with in MC, and at least I do have some kind of commitment now from him to go to MC in the New Year. So once again, I feel I'm trying to move forward with him on faith, since he has made some demonstration to me that he loves me (the presents - the desire to please me).

THEN I find that history up on the computer and I thought - do I really want to look and find out if he got a Christmas message from OW2, or see if he said anything twisted about me to "buddy"? Do I want him to find out and then accuse me of spying on him? I just bailed and cleared the whole thing. I WANT him to be accountable for himself willingly and I guess I think spying on him isn't going to move that goal any closer and I didn't want to ruin my Christmas. I feel like I just got my head above water on Christmas Eve and spying and seeing anything that would hurt me would send me back under.

So am I an idiot or what? SHOULD I have looked - am I just choosing to stick my head in the sand?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

LIR

LIR,
Often I wish I could come to your home, get someone to watch YS and spend about 3 hours with you and your H. I think you just need a good kick start to be on your way to a very good marriage. Then I laugh and say " Probably never happen, and even if it did, I am not trained for this stuff anyway." You seem so close, so often. I believe what you could use the most is someone to interpret your statements to each other. You are BOTH afraid, and often when you talk to each other you ( both) are so frightened that you take what is said in the worst way, when it is not meant to hurt, or point at the other. Things being said that are intended to help each other often cause more damage. I think if your MC ( or IC's if that's the way you do it) can get you both communicating so you can see the positive that is intended, then you will be on the way to a big improvement.

I said, "Well, I have no objection to you coming back to sleep in our bed, its just that I need you to know that I am not just here for sex. Anyway, we have had a nice day, so we don't have to talk about things right now, lets just enjoy our Christmas. "He said, "Well, I wasn't thinking that anyway." (that I was just there for sex)
I like sex ( just for the record) but being with my W means much more than having sex. When we have been at odds, and I go to her, it means to me that I am ready to make amends, that I want to be close to her, and get over it. His searching out and giving you those gifts means to me that he cares a great deal for you, and that he is seeking a way to get close to you and make things up to you. I almost bet ( you still know him better than I do, so I'll let you call this one) that his coming to you in bed last week ( or wa it two weeks ago? ) was an attempt to reconcile with you. That is how I would think. When we men hurt we give what is most important to US - and often it is sex. To be honest, W and I still struggle with this one, even though it is much better.

That is probably why this worried me.
What I'm kind of concerned about is that he still hasn't given me what I want - an acknowledgment that what he did was wrong and a commitment to not do it again. A NC letter to OW2 - a recognition that he has hurt me, nor any change in the way he handles money.
Does he understand that you expect these things? I realize you have spoken to him about them - at least in part, but I hope this is not one of those secret tests that he didn't get a chance to study for. MC could really help with these.

Again, all this should be dealt with in MC, and at least I do have some kind of commitment now from him to go to MC in the New Year. So once again, I feel I'm trying to move forward with him on faith, since he has made some demonstration to me that he loves me (the presents - the desire to please me).
He is seeking emotional closeness in a way that - even if it is not exactly the best way for you, at least you can see it. Try to keep this in mind when he makes a mistake, for he surely will at this stage. I really don't believe this is the sign of a man looking for a way to leave you.

I don't know what to tell you about erasing his history. It could have set you back, but it could have made him look good if it had been a communication that was positive. So you really don't know. Knowing the state of mind you have been in lately, not looking was probably best. You may have found something that he uses for therapy ( much like you use MB) that looked bad but was innocent. Probably you did the right thing, now you just need to get past it.

So he came back to bed on Christmas night. And we haven't had sex. I think we both still feel insecure, and Christmas isn't a magic wand which makes it "all better now". But at least we are back sleeping in the same bed.
If you could find a way to want him sexually, it would do wonders for his ability to try. At least if he is like I am. I can't explain all the reasons behind this, and you could read a book about it that explained it all, and you would shake your head and say " well, I kind of understand, but it still sounds fishy to me." I don't know how to explain this one.

I will say that non sexual affection with no pressure means the world to my W when she is feeling down, but she tries to give the same to me and it often frustrates me. Be careful about giving affection by touch unless you explain what you are doing. " Honey, I am not ready for sex yet, but I want to touch you, it helps me feel love for you, OK?" . He probably sees it more like I do and I know what I would think if my W started to touch me in bed. She looks at it as giving love, I tend to think, " why did she stop?" I hope you don't feel preassure by what I am suggesting here, I just wanted to shed some light on this one for you.

I think you have some progress here. I hope nothing bad has happened since we last heard from you. When I read your posts, I think of many more things to say than I can type. You give a very good account of your feelings, and conversations. I can really relate to what is going on with the two of you.

SS.

Hi there all - well its Sunday, and H has taken OS with him for the day so I'm home all day with YS, which is good - we are all tired and have been able to sleep late. We had my H's nephew here the last 2 days on a flying visit from Canada, and that was good - we had a nice time. So nothing bad has happened since I last posted.

I know what you mean, ss, about the way we say things - part of it seems to me that my H finds it very hard to be direct about how he says things - it feels rude to him, so a lot of the time I am guessing about what he is really trying to say to me. And conversely, he doesn't like me being direct to him - he thinks I am being rude - so with the coming back to bed thing, I was trying to be low-key about it, not pressure him, and it came out like I wasn't too enthusiastic, when actually part of me was extremely relieved that he wanted to come back to bed.

But to give some background, yes, I have a lot of misgivings about the presents and him coming back to bed, and whether or not he just wants me for sex once in awhile. Last Christmas, he was also very generous to me, although not quite in the same way (this year he picked out all the things on MY list - last year he thought up a lot of his own presents). And last year, I was very pleased and touched - last year was post OW1 and right after a miscarriage (I had a D&C mid-November 2001) - I felt so good last Christmas, like he really appreciated me and was trying to make up for the pain of OW1. Our SIL had committed suicide in mid-Nov 2001 and we were struggling through our first Christmas without her - and I really thought he had "got" the value of a loving wife. What I didn't know was that he was already getting involved in EA2 behind my back - he was already going out with this other girl once a week, and talking to her on his cellphone and by TXT msg - by the time he got his private e-mail account at beg of Feb, their R was already so close that they had half-a-dozen pet names for each other and he was saying "I'll be thinking of you tomorrow" - and "I kiss all your blonde parts" (a joke - not a very nice joke for me to read). So I look back on last years presents as not him trying to tell me he loved me, but a kind of appeasement, and maybe also, relieving his guilty conscience.

So this year, part of me is saying "These presents are really nice and I know you are trying to tell me you love me, but last year I trusted you and you were pretty busy behind my back, so I now have no idea whether or not you are busy behind my back again this year!"
Do you see? I WANT to believe his gifts to me are what they seem to be - but I'm not entirely sure. I want his faithfulness more than presents.

And on to sex - I like sex, too - but I'm not sure that for my H being with me means more than having sex. You, ss, are not, and as far as I know, have not been emotionally involved with another woman - most men, when they are emotionally involved with a woman, are also physically attracted to her. Like my H was emotionally involved with OW2 - even though they didn't get as far as sex, and even though she had a steady boyfriend in another country, so my H thought "This is cool - I can be "friends" and there's no danger of involvement," the dynamic of sexual attraction was there in spades (as you can see from his "blonde parts" comment). A lot of their comments to each other were heavy flirting about body parts, etc. They both were obviously physically attracted to each other and loving the fact that they could express that, without ever having sex, because they were both committed to other people. She called this "my BF trusts me". But that kind of R sucks you in - starts out fun - soon you are emotionally involved and "bewitched" for lack of a better word, by that person, and your interest in your committed partner dwindles to nothing. On the night I discovered their e-mails, I tried to talk to my H about "us", without letting him know I had found these e-mails (I wasn't sure I should confront him with them - it was before I found MB). And he said, with a pained expression "I guess I'm just not interested in you physically anymore." Of course he wasn't - he was pouring all his attention into a 21 year old bombshell and loving the attention he was getting back. The point is that he thought he could compartmentalize, but he couldn't - it was draining away all the delight he once took in me, both physical and emotional.

That was how I was able to tell he was involved with someone else - because he interest in me died. But of course, he did need sex - he likes sex - he needs sex - it was just no longer something that he wanted that helped him feel close to me - because he didn't care whether he felt close to me anymore - in fact, he didn't really WANT to feel close to me anymore. I did the usual which people talk about on this forum - make mad, passionate love to him in an attempt to woo him back. Of course, he loved that - but it didn't arouse his feelings for me. So part of me feels like I've been there, done that and I'm tired of getting hurt and being used.

I know that what I need is to want him sexually without wanting to control him - in other words, have sex without doing it as a way to win him back. I just don't seem to be there yet - its like after all I've been through, my doors have now slammed shut. I'm tired of being lied to and putting out for nothing. If he wants me, why doesn't he understand that he can't continue with any other emotional relationship, that that is wrong and hurts me AND our relationship, our family, and our children - and be a man - own up to his mistakes and commit to trying to mend what he has damaged. Why doesn't he do this? I want to be with a man who will do this, not someone who will continue doggedly to try to manipulate things behind the scenes to get what he wants? You can see from everything I say that I don't trust him. I think your wife, even though you say you have these similar kinds of problems with communication, still trusts you - and she has reason to.

When we have been at odds, and I go to her, it means to me that I am ready to make amends, that I want to be close to her, and get over it. His searching out and giving you those gifts means to me that he cares a great deal for you, and that he is seeking a way to get close to you and make things up to you. I almost bet ( you still know him better than I do, so I'll let you call this one) that his coming to you in bed last week ( or wa it two weeks ago? ) was an attempt to reconcile with you. That is how I would think. When we men hurt we give what is most important to US - and often it is sex. To be honest, W and I still struggle with this one, even though it is much better.
I think I needed to be told this - I do think you are right - that that is part of what is happening here - you can see from what I said above, why I am not able to respond so cleanly - I have all this other baggage in the way and I don't know how to get rid of it.

Does he understand that you expect these things? I realize you have spoken to him about them - at least in part, but I hope this is not one of those secret tests that he didn't get a chance to study for. MC could really help with these. I think he does understand that I expect these things, but this is the source of the conflict between us. He seems furious that I should expect these things and determined that he will not do these things for me. Because he refuses still to accept that what he did was wrong. He is still "in the fog", in deep denial about these 2 relationships - he still maintains that they were just friendships and he sees me as being "unhinged" in some kind of way for being so opposed to them. This is what hurts me the most - that he refuses to see how he has hurt me - its like, I could forgive him for being human and falling in love with a beautiful girl, and I could even forgive him for being such a fool as to try to hide his involvement. But once discovered, to continue it and then punish ME for being hurt - to turn on me and point the finger at me and call me sick because I won't accept it - its the cumulative emotional violence against me which is so difficult to deal with. But I have read over and over again that many men (and women) refuse to recognize that an EA is just that - an affair - and usually, it is the MC who manages to get them to see what they have done - usually their partner cannot make them see this. I am still struggling to get my H to MC, so that the MC can talk us through this. I DO think that my H has glimmers of seeing this, but refuses to admit this to me.

The reason why I say that is also because of his use of the computer, and because of the e-mails between me and H's "buddy" - I've been sitting on something which I haven't said - I did get a chance to snoop on my H's e-mails about a month ago, when he went to work without erasing his history. I felt terrible when I realized the history was up there and I had the choice of whether or not I wanted to spy. I did. There were no saved e-mails that I could see from OW. But I did look at the e-mails from "buddy", and what I could of my H's e-mails TO "buddy". "Buddy" is clearly NOT my friend, and clearly H is very dependent on him for advice. "Buddy " is giving my H advice which is counter to our reconciling, and having discussed this with my counselor, her assessment is that "buddy" is a very dangerous threat to our marriage.

For example, mid-November, H opened a R talk - this is the talk where I felt I was able to tell him why I had asked him to leave in April, where I told him how I had accessed his e-mail history and seen that he only asked me to his concert after OW2 turned him down. H "got" what I was saying about finding out I was in second place, remember, and turned away and went to bed, saying "fair enough, fair enough". Well, he e-mailed "buddy" saying that he had tried to talk to me that night and I had just "taken over" (whenever I say anything, he calls it "taking over" - even when I leave gaps in our conversation 5 minutes long, trying to give him space to say something), and that he just couldn't see anything positive in this R any more (remember I told you I was feeling he just was looking for a way out). But he ended his e-mail by telling "buddy" about how I had found out I was in second place and said "I feel this is all my fault". So even though I didn't like seeing that he was so negative about me, I also saw the first glimmer of remorse, and I know he is capable of feeling it. Buddy's response was to advise him not to admit anything about his e-mail romance, to cool it on that front for the time being (so is it still going on?), to give him lots of legal advice about custody of the children (which he said the judge couldn't deny him, even if he was the one who had been a naughty boy), and also not to discuss anything with me that went on in his own counselling sessions.

It was also clear from the sequence of e-mails that Buddy had told H that I had e-mailed him (that was mid-Oct), that he (Buddy) had e-mailed me back, trying to help, but that my response had been to insult him. From the dates, it is clear that on the day that I e-mailed Buddy back with my response (Autonomy in Marriage), he immediately forwarded to my H the sentence he took exception to, showing my H how "insulting" I had been to him. Buddy is not a peacful, impartial, religious monk at all, but someone who is mixed-up, intemperate, manipulative, and with his own private agenda where my H is concerned. Instead of responding to me with consideration, he basically threw a torch into our marriage and is now hard at work at separating us, or keeping us apart, by giving my H advice which impedes healing - clearly my H recognizes that he has done wrong, but Buddy is advising my H not to do the things that would help us to reconcile. Because the more estranged H is from me, the closer he is to Buddy. Is Buddy gay? I think so. Why do I think so? Because he sent us the passage on Rilke - just type the keywords "gay" and "Rilke" into a google search engine and watch what comes up! The philosophy Buddy is espousing to my H is popular with gay people "two solitudes bordering each other" - they see love without commitment, and feel that "contingent" relationships add value to a persons life, rather than detract from the commitment to a primary relationship. I don't think H realizes that Buddy is probably gay - in fact, H asked me if I thought he was, and I said I didn't know (that was before this happened) - H said he thought he wasn't. So H is trusting Buddy as a heterosexual guy, not realizing that Buddy is pretty keen on H, and although not able to fulfill a physical love due to his choice of a monastic life, he's pretty keen to be no. 1 emotionally with my H. He'll settle for that. But I am betting that if he is gay, he will eventually come on too heavy with H, and H will be shocked and beat a hasty retreat.

Isn't life wierd? You said you sometimes saw me beset with devils - I do, too - if it isn't one thing, it seems to be another.

So I guess I erased the history partly because I just felt I couldn't handle seeing anything negative just when it seems like my H has given me a big message that he wants to reconcile. And I also have already found out where Buddy is coming from, so I didn't need to see anything new there. I would have liked to see something positive, its true. But I guess I'm just afraid at this point. I didn't feel strong enough to see what I might see. And so I thought it was better to take care of myself emotionally. I feel better now. Today I am going to do the list you suggested, which I haven't had the chance to do yet.

If you could find a way to want him sexually, it would do wonders for his ability to try.
It really helps to be reminded of this. I hear you.

I will say that non sexual affection with no pressure means the world to my W when she is feeling down, but she tries to give the same to me and it often frustrates me. Be careful about giving affection by touch unless you explain what you are doing. " Honey, I am not ready for sex yet, but I want to touch you, it helps me feel love for you, OK?" . He probably sees it more like I do and I know what I would think if my W started to touch me in bed. She looks at it as giving love, I tend to think, " why did she stop?"LOL Your wife sounds like me, and I never thought of the effect I was having that way. That's why I find your posts so valuable! Thanks for telling me this!

Well, I had better go now - YS has been in front of the TV for awhile now. But I still haven't said anything about your "forgetting" - I am going, like you, to try to frame my thoughts about that today and then come back to you later. OK?

Thanks for everything,
LIR

Dear LIR

I have been meaning to stop by here for such a long time, and been way-laid by Christmas and my own issues. I want you to know that I value and appreciate all your advice, and hope that I can give you a few words of support to you. If not, please ignore the following <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you did the right thing to delete the history - if you knew it was going to hurt you, then just don't do it. The whole "buddy" thing I really understand must be so difficult to deal with. This is something that my H cannot tolerate, my two buddies giving me rubbish advice. But, I reckon from what you have said "buddy" is on self destruct mode. You cannot influence him or change him or what he says to your H (one of the things on your list to ignore). Your H is a clever man, surely he'll begin to wonder why "buddy" gives such specific advice? Other than my family (who are pretty biased as far as I am concerned), not one person has told me what to do or what not to do in such specific and direct ways. Frankly, if anyone did, I think I would have less respect for them, because at the end of the day, only I can make decisions and choices based on what I know and what is true to my own heart. If the conversation comes up again about whether or not "buddy" is gay (which sounds pretty likely IMHO), I think I would say something to your H along the lines of "Well, on reflection, I think he is, but it makes no odds to me whether or not he is or isn't" Leave a little seed of doubt, whilst saying that it really doesn't worry you though.

I am glad your H bought you nice thoughtful gifts and presents, but wouldn't you give them all back if you could have a happy, trusting and fulfilling M? Me too. Of course, I don't know your H, but it does sound to me as if he has tried really hard, and you should be very positive that he has been so thoughtful - no more no less. You cannot possibly know if there is anything more behind the present giving, so perhaps again, this is one of the things to strike off the list.

I am not very good at the whole bed/sex advice thing, given my own issues there, but do you think YOU could have sex with your H because YOU want to? Why should women be different - it's always about a man needing sex, wanting etc.etc. but if you do, do it for you!!!!!

LIR, you are such a thoughtful, intelligent and insightful woman, I wish I could have even a fraction of that. I read your posts and all the effort you put into your M and to yourself and I truly hope that it will work as you want.

Wishing you a wonderful 2003, from rainy north London.
Lisa