Hi Lisa,

I came back to check up here b4 H comes home about 7:30-8 - thank you for replying to my post - i am really struggling right now in some ways and I appreciate your advice - as always, you help me to see things I have missed and also point me in the direction of more effective ways to handle conversations - something I don't feel very good at, especially when I am frightened or stressed.

I also read your post, and want to get back to you on your own thread - I don't know when that will be, because this week my h and both boys will be home all week - i suspect my time on the computer will be very hard to find. But I wanted to say how sorry I am for your experience with H and his present - probably if you were both still happily married, he would have found it delightful and would have said "It's just what I always wanted!". But since things are so rocky right now, its just not good enough - somehow I get the feeling nothing you did would be good enough for him right now, and that is not your fault. Whether this is because of his resentment against you, or whether its because he has now embarked on the beginnings of his own affair is hard to say, but my instincts say the same thing as yours - it looks like he is heading for a "revenge affair". I know this is very painful, but I don't think you can blame yourself for this - this is his choice, not yours. You know that you will always find support on this forum no matter what you go through - believe me, I appreciate the support you have offered me!

I think you did the right thing to delete the history - if you knew it was going to hurt you, then just don't do it. The whole "buddy" thing I really understand must be so difficult to deal with. This is something that my H cannot tolerate, my two buddies giving me rubbish advice. But, I reckon from what you have said "buddy" is on self destruct mode. You cannot influence him or change him or what he says to your H (one of the things on your list to ignore). Your H is a clever man, surely he'll begin to wonder why "buddy" gives such specific advice? Other than my family (who are pretty biased as far as I am concerned), not one person has told me what to do or what not to do in such specific and direct ways.
Thanks so much for this insight - you see, it helps me so much to see things from a different angle. I kind of think my H is so "strung-out" emotionally that he hasn't twigged yet that Buddy shouldn't be giving him this kind of advice. I have said to my H that I think our problems are such that we should rely on trained counselors and not on "well-meaning friends". I am walking a fine line here, because if I criticize Buddy in any way, H will just accuse me of trying to control his life and who he is friends with.

If the conversation comes up again about whether or not "buddy" is gay (which sounds pretty likely IMHO), I think I would say something to your H along the lines of "Well, on reflection, I think he is, but it makes no odds to me whether or not he is or isn't" Leave a little seed of doubt, whilst saying that it really doesn't worry you though.
Good idea! But I don't think H will ask me again - still, I will be prepared if I have a chance. Thank you for this!

I am glad your H bought you nice thoughtful gifts and presents, but wouldn't you give them all back if you could have a happy, trusting and fulfilling M?Yes, I would - desperately. It has never mattered to me how much money we had, or have - or possessions. I would just rather I was married to an honest man who loved and cherished me for who I am, even if I'm not perfect.
I don't know your H, but it does sound to me as if he has tried really hard, and you should be very positive that he has been so thoughtful - no more no less. You cannot possibly know if there is anything more behind the present giving, so perhaps again, this is one of the things to strike off the list.
Yes, its true - I have to look at the positives instead of the "negatives". Jante reminds me that she wishes she still had her H at home - and so I am trying to be positive that he has now come back and wants to sleep in the same bed, and has been so thoughtful and generous. Trust is hard for me. I guess I have issues there from long ago that affect my ability to trust, as well.

I am not very good at the whole bed/sex advice thing, given my own issues there, but do you think YOU could have sex with your H because YOU want to? Why should women be different - it's always about a man needing sex, wanting etc.etc. but if you do, do it for you!!!!! Yes, I hear you - I should be able to do that - after all, I grew up in California in the 60's - I'm not supposed to have any hang-ups about guilt in that area - and I don't, really - maybe, like you, right now, I just don't fancy him that much - I want to, but I don't. Maybe if I do it, it will come back to me, like lighting a fuse - if I think of it that way, maybe I can get started again! LOL

LIR, you are such a thoughtful, intelligent and insightful woman, I wish I could have even a fraction of that. I read your posts and all the effort you put into your M and to yourself and I truly hope that it will work as you want.Thank you for saying this, Lisa - I don't feel like that very much - and I really wish I had more to offer others on this forum - most of the time, I am just totally embroiled with myself - I wish I could just let go and start to enjoy MY life again, even without H. And I think you have MORE than a fraction of insight yourself, and are far more articulate about it than I am, so keep up the good work!

I hope you have a good New Year - and roll on a better year for us all - I think we have paid some dues here this year and deserve some good times!

Take care,
LIR

I hope you are doing well, and that H is still helping you to do so.

Sometimes I worry about what I say to you, I don't want you to think "With all I have to cope with, how can he expect me to think of this too?"

I agree with all the good things that Lisa said about you. Credit where credit is due.

I hope your week is so busy with good things that you can't come on for a few days, it would be nice for you to have some really really good days.

When you do come back, I would like to know what is going on in your heart. There are still many unresolved issues, he still has bad habits that hurt, but you have seen some good, and you both are trying ( or were) I would like to know how your feelings are doing through all this, and what kind of emotional reserves you have now.

( later edit)
My W came in and started to clean out a closet so I read some of your post to her and ask her to comment. I'll try and remember our conversation.

I read her what you said about having a hard time trusting God because of your father. My W's father and mother were D'vd when she was about 16 so she was about the same place as you are.

Quote by LIR -
. I am realizing that my own R with God is affected by the loss of my father to Dv - I often relate to God as if he were my father - not trusting that he will be there. Deep down, I have the voice that says "There is no-one there for you, you are on your own, you are the only one who can protect yourself, so it is you who will have to act." Intellectually, I know that God is there. Emotionally, I have a hard time waiting for things to happen in God's time, because it feels like I am alone - do you see?
I am going to do this without quotes and stuff to save time, I trust you can follow it.

Did you have those same feelings?
You mean about trusting men?

No, about having faith in God.
Yes, it took me a long time to know I could trust him to take care of me.

How are you able to trust him now?
I have prayed so many times and gotten answers that I know he is there looking out for me.
How were you able to get over the hard feelings you had for me?

I realized a long time ago that it was my fire ( refiners fire) and I just figured I would come out the other end refined if I didn't give up.
Do you have any advice for her?
Just keep praying to know what she should do, that's the only thing that worked for me.

Do you think If I had been a better, nicer person it would have been easier and better for you?
We have to grow somehow. Everybody has their own fire. I am happy now and I don't know how I could have got here without the learning I was able to get. How could we have come to where we are now without what we have been through? I can't see how it would have worked.

( then there is some mushy stuff I won't repeat)
I hope you get to that mushy stuff.

Did I say I agree with Lisa?
I do.

SS

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Well its late here - past midnight, and I need to get some sleep, so I won't be too long right now but will come back tomorrow, too.

Thank you for all the encouragement, LIL and ss - I have been checking in this week as best I could - and trying to keep up with others' threads through the holidays.

H is out tonight - decided to drive to work this evening instead of waiting for tomorrow am - we are supposed to have snow tonight and he doesn't want to risk not making it tomorrow am - last week he didn't get there on time because of an accident on the motorway. It happens sometimes. I would rather he be safe so I am glad he went tonight.

Well, H and I got "reacquainted" last night. Like I said, I decided to look at it like lighting a fuse. As every night went on and he didn't approach me, I remembered what you said, ss about non-sexual touch, so I started touching him more around the house, trying to give him the message in a low-key kind of way, that I still wanted to be close to him. But each day brought no response. I told him thank you for all the presents, but it didn't seem to be enough. He was still unhappy deep down. We have spent a lot of time visiting friends, so haven't had to be alone much at home. A couple of days ago, we all went out with some friends - I drove with the wife, whom I have become close to, so we were able to talk about our respective Hs in the car - girl talk! - her husband is seriously emotionally abusive to her, which is plain as day to me, and to others, she says - I think she is only just starting to be able to talk about it. My H is now starting to see how awful this H is to his wife, and doesn't like it - sees how moody he is and how he takes it out on her. Anyway, she and I and my H had tea together and both of us noticed that my H drifted off for a minute, gazed out of the window with a deep sadness come over him. I felt sad for him - I wish I could help him, but I know in my heart that he is the only one who can help himself feel better.

When we got home, though, I pulled him over to me and tried to hug him. I said I was sorry for the way things were, that my emotions had been very fraught for a very long time. I kissed him and hugged him and told him I still loved him. He felt very heavy to me, physically - like he weighed so much - hard to move - he felt depressed.

Yesterday, we were laughing with the boys about something they did when they were babies. I said I had photographs and went and got them for them to look at - it made us all laugh a lot. H saw one of me sitting in the garden and said - "There's Mummy looking a lot less stressed."

I had to go babysit for a friend and didn't get back last night until 1:30am. I was surprised to find H still up, although he was heading for bed. I took a long time in the bathroom and he surprised me again - he came downstairs looking for me and came up to me, peered into my face and said "Are you allright?" - "Oh, yes, I'm fine," I said, "I'm just coming to bed now." Most of the time he shows no interest in me at all.

So we went to bed, and ended up, well, touching base again. I have to say, and I'm being brutally honest here, I didn't feel altogether good about it. There are things I don't like about the way my H is physical with me. Should I talk about it here? Sometimes he is too rough. But I told him I didn't like that - he didn't stop, so I told him again that I didn't like it - he tried something else, so I told him I didn't like that either - its the way he touches me - its too heavy and aggressive - not light and gentle. To give him credit, he asked me what I did like and tried to oblige - I just don't know if he knows how, or if he doesn't "feel" romantic with me - somehow, it all feels very "carnal" - I don't know how to describe it. I said he liked something about me (some body part) - he said "I like all of it" - inside I thought, "It?it? What about saying 'I like all of YOU'? Am I really an it?" Is that being paranoid or what? Anyway, there was no talking about R or us, no intimacy, just physical intimacy, then he rolled over, grunting. I patted him after awhile and said "That was nice," and got a grunt in response.

But today he is a lot happier, and is "relating" to me a lot more. More cheerful, flirting a little, fussing over topping up my mobile, lots more "engaged" -

This is kind of funny - he gave me a pair of mens pyjamas for xmas! Yes, he did! When I opened them, I said "These are mens pyjamas!" "I know, but the women's stuff all looked so tacky! I got fed up looking and thought at least in these you would be warm!"
I told our friends (above) about this, and they teased him about it. I said he ought to be careful - I would wonder whether he was wanting me to look like a bloke in bed! After that he told me to take them back and exchange them for something I wanted - insisted I should. So yesterday I did - I showed them to him today and he wrinkled his nose. I rolled my eyes and walked away. He came after me and said "Never mind what I think - as long as YOU like them, that's the important thing!" I thought that was a good sign.

Oh, BTW, LIL, you had suggested getting in a remark about men who are gay, in reference to "buddy". We were talking (same friends) and the subject of a new boss came up - seems he is gay. My friend (the wife) said women could usually tell if a man was gay - our H's asked how we could tell. I said that we couldn't always tell, but usually if a man was gay, we would at least wonder about it, and feel unsure - there would be a question mark in our minds. The other wife said that was because there was no spark coming from a gay man - and you could feel the lack, which made you wonder. I said that I had a close gay friend in CA, and I once asked him if he could tell whether a man was gay. I was surprised when he said that he couldn't always tell, but that gay men were often more keenly attracted to straight men than other gay men. The other wife speculated that that might be because there was the element of conquest there - the thought of "turning" someone. So the subject came up in a kind of a round about way. I wonder if any of it will resonate in H's brain at all. Well, I won't worry about it, but at least the conversation took place.

Well, I'm bushed, as they say - I will look in on everyone tomorrow and thank you so much for the encouraging words. I feel I've just managed to touch base here. Haven't really gone much into my feelings, since ss, you asked about my emotional reserves. I'm thinking about that one. Trying to sort that out. Not sure at this point, to tell you the truth. Maybe will be able to be more coherent tomorrow.

Take care, all,
LIR

I

Hi LIR and thanks for dropping in on my thread and posting your very useful thoughts.

I have read your post above and have to say it sounds like there are many positives if you could grasp them and hold on to them. While your physical rel may not be all you want it to be at the moment it is at least there!! Perhpas Michelles new book will help you on these issues. It was also good that you went out as a couple and that H seemed to notice things in the others rel. which may make him think about your own. I can only say keep working on you and bein as responsive as you can to his advances there is material there you can build with.

Jante

LIR,
I think you are a very interresting person. I think your reserves are better than any of us thought they were. How in the world were you able to do that?

Yes, you need to examine your feelings. That's where much of your help will come from right now. Think on that and see if it's true. I still think you are doing better than you thought you could do, and because of that, H will do better than you thought he would.

I don't have much time right now either but I hope to bet back tomorrow - late.

SS

Thank you jante and ss for your thoughts -

I stayed up late last night posting, so I kind of didn't take care of myself with the sleep I needed, so I'm tired again today - but hey, life is a trade-off sometimes! I'm OK!

The reason why I mention that is because you asked me ss, about my feelings, and my emotional reserves. The thing is, its hard for me to tell right now - this may sound strange, but - its now the depths of winter here, and I DO get SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder. Some people refer to it as a kind of depression - in my experience, it is not - it is a kind of lowering of my energy levels - I don't have the reserves of patience and capacity for good humour that I would have in the summertime. I don't have the inner well of strength that I would have in the summertime. Its not that I feel BAD - its more that I can feel tired physically and kind of "flat". In the summer I feel like getting up and playing squash, staying out to party, cooking lots for everyone, getting a lot done. In the winter, I would be happy staying in bed with a book and a box of chocolate! I still do all the work that needs to be done - I still stay up to 10pm cleaning and preparing for the next day, I still go to work, and yes, I can still have good days and be happy. But I don't have the self-motivating dynamic that I can have in the summer. I have to pace myself to get the job done. One of the things I need more of is sleep - if I get enough sleep, I generally feel better, regardless of what is happening in my life. So we're right in the middle of the darkest time of year here, and LisafromLondon could tell you that this year, the weather, at least where I am in England has been almost unremittingly grey for weeks and weeks now. The sky may clear for an hour or two, but in general, we are living under a low, and sullen cover of grey cloud - it can get very oppressive day after day. For me, what it means is the light level is very low outside, so I use my light box a lot. My light box is my lifesaver - it energizes me and helps me to cope with that "shut-in" feeling.

So what I'm saying is that I'm not sure what my true feelings are - how much my emotions are affected by the winter. Its hard for me to plumb the depths right now, but I will try.

I think what I noticed was that as soon as I realized that my H had got me all those presents, I instantly felt better. You talk about deposits to a love bank. He made a big deposit on that day - I noticed that it felt like I was starving and someone had just given me a big meal. The relief was intense. So yes, I was happy that he had tried so hard to make me happy, but also anxious, like I have tried to explain.

Today H called me and was very chatty and friendly on the phone - he had all the old affection in his voice again, which again, made me feel good.

I guess the question I am asking myself is - do I want to be loved by this man? I have taken a lot from him, and I am trying to look at all the positive signs. But I am still feeling very anxious about our future together. What I am anxious about is that this "reconciliation" may be just another resolution to one cycle of abuse and the beginning of the next. He has made the grand gesture, I have let him come back to bed, the tension has eased - how long before it builds up again?

I don't want that to sound cynical, its that I am trying to be realistic. I really feel that we need marriage counselling - there is still no evidence that either of us has any ability to talk to each other about what we want or need from the other in this relationship - I just cannot go on and on living out the same cycles, feeling frustrated and anxious, not wanting to upset the apple cart of his good mood, while nothing changes.

I am trying not to complain or blame - I am also looking for the positive signs. Jante and you, ss, help me see these positive signs. The main one is his willingness to go to joint counselling. Although, I have been thinking about that, and him baulking at the appointment I booked for 22 Jan, (which I think is because he thought it was too expensive - the fee was not negotiable) - maybe that's a sign that he needs more IC and is just not ready for MC.

We each are supposed to go back to our counselors next week, so once again, I will have to raise the subject of joint counselling - and I am not looking forward to this - so many setbacks in the past, it feels like I am a showjumper once again coming up to the same fences to jump over again and again.

Mainly, I would say that at this point, I do best if I think of it as taking one day at a time, and try to be positive for that one day. Thats about where my emotional reserves are right now. I am certainly not feeling "in love" with my H - but I am starting to hope that I might be able to respect him again.

How's that?

Well, got to go - off to church and then back to that big ole ironing pile - light box in front of the ironing pile - where's the chocolate?

Anyone got any sunshine to spare?

Cheers for now!
LIR

Hi LIR,
I seem to have the same problem you have, but I have slept in a few days because I was off work ( mini new years vacation)
-I stayed up late last night posting, so I kind of didn't take care of myself with the sleep I needed, so I'm tired again today - but hey, life is a trade-off sometimes!
Yes, life is a trade off, not sometimes, but all the time. We never are able to do all of what we want to do, so we have to do the most important things. It's a constant battle to figure out what those most important things are, and stay on task. Lots of distractions, aren't there.

I'm OK! The reason why I mention that is because you asked me ss, about my feelings, and my emotional reserves. The thing is, its hard for me to tell right now - this may sound strange, but - its now the depths of winter here, and I DO get SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder. Some people refer to it as a kind of depression - in my experience, it is not - it is a kind of lowering of my energy levels

This seems to be something many people are affected with. You seem to have learned how to cope with it, not to thrive, but at least you recognize it, and cope with it. Is this one of the things H should be helping with, and is not? This is one of the places I forget to help my W. ( as we have discussed before - you know, "forgetting") She has suffered from depression, and takes medication for it. I am supposed to be kind and helpful to her. You would think by now that I would always remember and keep her troubles foremost in my mind, after all, I love her deeply. In real life, some days I forget her troubles for mine, and I dump all mine on her. Once or twice I have caught that fleeting glimpse of pain in her eyes and then I remember. Why don't I remember? Is she not important to me? Don't I love her?

Well, I think it's just that I have my own demons, and sometimes I am so busy working on them that I forget about her. Someday, I will be a better person, and I will always consider her feelings, and state of mind, but not yet.

- I don't have the reserves of patience and capacity for good humor that I would have in the summertime. I don't have the inner well of strength that I would have in the summertime. Its not that I feel BAD - its more that I can feel tired physically and kind of "flat".
I have to think about this one, It would explain a lot about the cycles I go through also. I thought it was just because I am almost as old as T-Zero. ( Gotcha T. )

One of the things I need more of is sleep - if I get enough sleep, I generally feel better, regardless of what is happening in my life. So we're right in the middle of the darkest time of year here, and LisafromLondon could tell you that this year, the weather, at least where I am in England has been almost unremittingly grey for weeks and weeks now. The sky may clear for an hour or two, but in general, we are living under a low, and sullen cover of grey cloud - it can get very oppressive day after day.

I'm with you on the sleep. During the Christmas holiday everyone wants to party half the night and I try to go to sleep but my older children are only here for a week or two, and they all want to spend some time, so I extend myself, and it is hard to function correctly from day to day. I don't know how you cope with the grey skies. I am in the desert southwest, and our motto ( chamber of commerce stuff from my youth) was "where the summer sun spends the winter." So at least we have sun most days, and even pretty nice temperatures, though not as balmy as southern Cal.

For me, what it means is the light level is very low outside, so I use my light box a lot. My light box is my lifesaver - it energizes me and helps me to cope with that "shut-in" feeling. So what I'm saying is that I'm not sure what my true feelings are - how much my emotions are affected by the winter.
I know most of the above is background, but I seem to comment away. I believe I learned to talk to much to compensate for being shy.

Its hard for me to plumb the depths right now, but I will try. I think what I noticed was that as soon as I realized that my H had got me all those presents, I instantly felt better. You talk about deposits to a love bank. He made a big deposit on that day - I noticed that it felt like I was starving and someone had just given me a big meal. The relief was intense.

You needed that, and it is what I have been praying for - for he and you.

So yes, I was happy that he had tried so hard to make me happy, but also anxious, like I have tried to explain. Today H called me and was very chatty and friendly on the phone - he had all the old affection in his voice again, which again, made me feel good.
He is looking for love just like you are, only he looks for different needs to be met than you look for. You met his needs, he is happy. I believe in unconditional love, but I believe that as long as we are able, we show that we possess that love by our actions - that would be meeting needs, or said another way, doing things for the other person that please them and make them happy.
When I say as long as we are able, sometimes sickness, ill health ( mental or physical) or temporary events ( say, serving as President of the United States) dictate that we can't meet needs like we would usually be able to do. Then we lower our expectations for a time and cope.

I guess the question I am asking myself is - do I want to be loved by this man? I have taken a lot from him, and I am trying to look at all the positive signs. But I am still feeling very anxious about our future together. What I am anxious about is that this "reconciliation" may be just another resolution to one cycle of abuse and the beginning of the next. He has made the grand gesture, I have let him come back to bed, the tension has eased - how long before it builds up again? I don't want that to sound cynical, its that I am trying to be realistic.
Every marriage will have disagreements, and bad times. Its how we handle the problems that determines how happy we are. Abuse is not the way. This is what I see MC can do for you both, set up the rules on solving dispute's, and also discuss how to interact ( no LB's)

I am in charge of other people in my company. When we hire someone new, we train them and then we expect their performance to gradually improve. If they fail to follow proper policy or fail to do assigned work, we try to determine why. If it is training, that is, if they don't know how to do something, or don't understand policy, we train them. IF they understand policy but are not willing to follow it, we fire them.

That's where you are. If he wants to do better but needs training, then you have hope, if he understands but doesn't care, then you have no hope. Sometimes you really believe he understands and cares, sometimes you think he doesn't care. Personally from what you report, I believe he cares but needs training, and that the learning curve will be a long one.
That's why I ask about your emotional health. I notice that you did better in the spring and summer and you began to have doubts more in September and on into the fall. So it could be your cycle, or it could be he was worse. You have to call that one.

I really feel that we need marriage counseling - there is still no evidence that either of us has any ability to talk to each other about what we want or need from the other in this relationship - I just cannot go on and on living out the same cycles, feeling frustrated and anxious, not wanting to upset the apple cart of his good mood, while nothing changes.
No, I agree that you can't go on forever. Neither can he, for his frustration is real, even if he misunderstands what causes it.
You have had enough relationships to know that the perfect man doesn't exist. At least I think you have. Going to another would be trading one set of troubles for another. And it would take a few years to see what those problems were, and how bad they were. Right now you have defined the problems, and you have seen a willingness to improve. You have seen him demonstrate desire for MC. His concerns seem to be cost, and fear of it ending badly as before. He may realize as do you that if you can't find common ground, things are over, and he may be fearful of that ending just as you are. I am sure he wonders - just as you do if it would be easier with someone else. If the fear and pressure would go away. That doesn't mean he is unfaithful ( I admit he once was, not saying he is innocent) it means he wants a rest just like you do.

I am trying not to complain or blame - I am also looking for the positive signs. Jante and you, ss, help me see these positive signs. The main one is his willingness to go to joint counseling. Although, I have been thinking about that, and him baulking at the appointment I booked for 22 Jan, (which I think is because he thought it was too expensive - the fee was not negotiable) - maybe that's a sign that he needs more IC and is just not ready for MC.
You both need MC to give you hope of a better life. What you need to get from the first session are:
1. The knowledge that you both love each other and want to stay married.
2. You need to know that there is a way to talk without causing damage to the relationship (Note that I didn't say a way to talk without pain, there will be some for a while, but there is healing pain, so remember the difference.)
3. You need to know that your MC knows what they are doing and that they will help and keep you both safe. So, the Joint IC suggestion means to me that he is seeking this safety and that he trusts his IC, and he must feel that you trust yours. Looks like he wants to guarantee no blow up like last time.
4. You both need to see the light at the end of the tunnel. You both need to know that a good M is possible. I believe you will get that when you see steady, sustained progress. That is, successful MC over a few months time. I believe that will help him also for the same reasons. Remember again that even if he causes many of his own problems, his pain and suffering are real. He doesn't want to have pain and suffering and I believe if he sees a way out of it, he will take it.
Did I mention it will be a long learning curve?
It is for us, no reason you should be any different.

We each are supposed to go back to our counselors next week, so once again, I will have to raise the subject of joint counseling - and I am not looking forward to this - so many setbacks in the past, it feels like I am a showjumper once again coming up to the same fences to jump over again and again.
This is your best hope.
Make it work.

Mainly, I would say that at this point, I do best if I think of it as taking one day at a time, and try to be positive for that one day. That's about where my emotional reserves are right now. I am certainly not feeling "in love" with my H - but I am starting to hope that I might be able to respect him again. How's that?
You go with what you have, so now we know what you have to work with, and hopefully we an adjust our advice. Did you ever think that even God adjusts what he asks of us, based on our ability to respond. He lets us take longer, and just continues to give us help as long as we continue to try.

where's the chocolate?
Amen.

Anyone got any sunshine to spare?
Yes, but I have never figured out how to ship it. I put it in the box, but when it gets there, it has always leaked out.

There is another tool ( perhaps sunshine substitute) that you need to use. That tool is music. It affects our moods and it can help give you energy, and take away the blues. Find music appropriate for whatever task you are involved in, and let it help. Watch the intensity and beat, you will see what I mean.

Just like Jante, you have more talent and ability than you know. Have some faith in yourself, after all, we do, and we think we know you pretty well by now.

SS

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss-

Thank you, thank you, thank you, from the bottom of my heart for responding in such detail - I really needed it today and just about every word struck home.

I wish I could reply in detail - just know that all your words helped so much.

Today I went back to work and felt better about life in general, but as I said, the SAD does affect me this time of year - even with the lightbox, I am slow - my thoughts are slower, my connections are slower - its like, it takes me longer to count out the change, you know? And in the summer, the film speed gets faster - so yes, I do have a handle on it, I don't feel "depressed", but really, I am doing a lot of coping.

Music - yes - and my music that makes me happy? SALSA! I put that on and dance around the kitchen - my boys get all excited and embarassed and come in to try to dance with me! We have a good laugh! My little guys! I also like Yousef n'dour and Ladysmith Black Mambazo - they are inspirational to me - really uplifting!

H and I are, I think, on the bumpy road to recovery - I am trying harder to be more physical - this is hard for me, because I have felt rejected physically, and am not sure he wants me coming for a kiss - its a delicate business, but I am just trying to touch him more. What I am hurting from is that I don't know if there is really closure of his EA - and he cooled off to me physically when he was involved there - in fact, I was thinking back over some of his e-mails and although I have given him credit for not getting involved physically, I realized with a shock that one of his e-mails revealed that he had crossed over a line with her and gotten too aggressive physically - he apologized and begged her to understand him - she did and told him he was being too sensitive. I have suddenly realized that their affair could easily have turned into a PA had she succumbed to his advances, since he was clearly the one making the advances (although he was getting a lot of encouragement) - so there is nothing there that I saw that puts him in a good light - and if he won't admit that he did wrong there, then he appears to me to be very vulnerable to another affair, and he is just as vulnerable to it turning physical as any other man, for all the moral values he professes.

Well, that's just going over old stuff, which is not in itself constructive, but its funny how you see different things when you have a longer perspective. I guess it says that for the longest time, I have wanted to believe the best of my H, but maybe I see him more realistically now. I do still want to believe the best of him, and am willing to forgive him for making mistakes. I make mistakes, too, which I hope he can forgive me for, so I should be able to forgive him for his.

Last night we had a strange kind of verbal interaction - I wouldn't call it a fight - it was just wierd, and if I can get computer time tomorrow I will try to tell you about it, but I can't right now.

This morning, we again discussed trying to work out an arrangement for joint counselling - and although we didn't settle on anything, the last thing he said to me before I had to go to work was "We'll find a solution". So this is why I have hope. We still argue, though - we still don't communicate well. Basically, in my view, he LB alot. He interrupts me, doesn't listen, pours scorn on my view (which he may even have asked for), a lot of times I think, why did he even ask me? Or he starts a conversation, then when I say something, he complains that I have made him forget what he was going to say, he stops talking, gives up and just leaves the room, without even telling me he wants to end the conversation and do something else. I think its all subconscious - not intentional - its just like you said - he actually WANTS to have a relationship, he needs training.

I am just praying for a good MC.

I have to go now, but will check in tomorrow at work.

God bless you, ss - and get some sleep!

You know - if you "forget" and hurt your wife's feelings - its the apology, for me, that means more than anything - if he apologizes, then I know he saw my pain - you aren't expected to be perfect and ALWAYS do the right thing, and you are a human being with your own stuff, too - but tender, heartfelt, sincere, kind words I would suspect would mean more to her than anything. I know you are good at this, but I am just encouraging you to continue with your good work! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take care,
LIR

OK, if I can take enough time on my break to get through this - this is that wierd convo which happened Tues. nite -

On Tues, I have counselling appt at 6pm, then choir rehearsal - I made dinner for everyone b4 I left, but only was able to eat a cup of soup myself b4 I left - I got home at 10pm, hungry and tired.

When I got home, boys were in bed but still awake - it looked like they had not been in bed too long - H was taking hot water bottles up - some dishes were washed up, but table not cleared of pots and pans or placemats, etc. H comes down and starts making me some spaghetti, tells me that 2 people have called for me, one is my SM who wants to talk to me - my SM is someone I have a "mixed feelings" R with - the legacy of pain from my childhood is great - nevertheless, I do care about her, and I support her the best I can - now she needs some supporting and I knew what she wanted to talk to me about (results of a breast biopsy) - I wasn't prepared to talk to her until I had something to eat.

H said that he had had a run-in (fireworks) with OS that eve. I said would he like to talk about it and he said yes. I told him I had also had fireworks with OS two nights b4, when he was out (Mon). H was trying to make dinner and tell me about problem with OS, then stopped talking and said he couldn't do two things at once. H came in and sat down near me, while I started to eat my dinner.

H then said I should call SM her back and tell her I would talk to her after I had dinner - I said it didn't work like that with her, and it could wait 15 minutes until after I had dinner. H took issue with me and said that I was letting her control me by not being able to be on the phone only 5 minutes with her - I said I wasn't letting her control me - I knew what she wanted and needed and I wanted to talk to her, but wasn't prepared to talk to her at all until I had had some food - it was past 10pm and I was HUNGRY! H remonstrated with me and I argued back, without LB'ing. We had a difference of opinion - to me, I was in control, as long as I talked to her on my terms - finally H said if I didn't call her back, she would say that he hadn't passed on the msg - I said that I would tell her he had, so he didn't need to worry about that. I said it seemed he was more concerned about what she would think about him than about whether or not I got to talk to her in the way that she needed and I needed. Anyway, I said, what I really want to hear about is what happened with OS, I thought you wanted to talk to me about that. Oh yeah, H said, and then got up and left the room and went upstairs.

I am eating alone for awhile, wondering what is going on, feeling madder and madder - why is H suddenly taking issue with me over SM? And trying to tell me what to do there? How come he wants to talk, then doesn't? Now he has just left the room and not come back. What gives?

I go upstairs and he is e-mailing on his Yahoo account. What's going on? I say. What do you mean? he says. I said "I thought you wanted to talk to me about OS". Not now, he says.

I go back downstairs. Then I get mad. I go back upstairs a few minutes later. Its like, why am I eating alone? Is he upstairs e-mailing someone (maybe "buddy") to tell them how awful I am being?
What IS going on? I say to him again "What's the matter? You said you wanted to talk to me, but you just leave the room and now you are e-mailing someone!" H says "Yeah, so what? I'm just e-mailing someone, so what?" H is cold. I said "You set me up, didn't you? You just set me up for a fight. You get upset because I won't do what you want and call SM back right away, but if I argue, I'm the difficult one. How many times have you come home late, with telephone calls waiting for you and you won't call them until you've had something to eat - its ok for you, but not for me! I'm finished with my dinner and I CAN'T get on the phone because now you're e-mailing on Yahoo - so when you're done, let me know." I leave. He finishes. I call my SM and talk the 15 minutes I need to.

H and I don't talk any more that night - he is just distant.

Gotta go! Will finish later.

LIR

I read your last two posts, and I laughed and laughed.

Sorry, I know you were serious. I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at how alike he and I seem to be.

I can't believe you could describe how I used to speak to my wife. Ok, Ok, still do sometimes. Ok, OK, this is one of my worst problems, still.

I can explain about the phone call.
He really is ................( I hate to admit I am this way) .............like me.

It's not that he is trying to be controlling ( though it is ) it's that he probably told MIL
"I'll have her call you as soon as she gets home." and then he tried to keep his word. I do this a lot........still, and I know better.

Probably it has been studied, and someone could help me if I would go to IC, but I am too stubborn. LOL, LOL. ( hey, I'm just kidding, actually I am getting better.)

Tell me if your H is apt to be late? Or on time, and it drives him crazy to be late, or if anyone else is late?

I would leave the room in the middle of a conversation, if it wasn't going the way I wanted. I also remembered it different than my W, or my Kids, or anyone else that happened to be there. I remember it the way I want.

My wife says this about me, " you have a lot of problems, but you can be trained."
It seems to apply to your H also.

H and I don't talk any more that night - he is just distant.
It didn't go like he wanted, so he didn't know what else to say, and he quit.

I am eating alone for awhile, wondering what is going on, feeling madder and madder - why is H suddenly taking issue with me over SM? And trying to tell me what to do there? How come he wants to talk, then doesn't? Now he has just left the room and not come back. What gives?

I think it is his personality type, or at least that has a lot to do with it. I suspect if you learned more about it, you could almost predict what he would to in these situations. Except that he is your H, and it hurts because it is you that is in the line of fire.

I have often felt it would good if we could go to MC with a film of about one hour of normal interaction in our home between the W and I. I bet MC would have a great time with that.

Remember that quote about taking offense when none is intended? I really don't think H intended any offense. I think he doesn't understand himself very well, even after all the IC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

We actually have clouds today, but I'm happy anyway.

SS

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -

I'm sorry I ditched everyone in the middle of that post, but someone walked in and I couldn't continue, and haven't been able to get back to it.

I can't post now because its YS birthday - I am getting the house ready with lunch and bday cake while H is out with YS, OS and 3 friends doing something fun.

Thanks for your honest reaction, ss - I don't mind you laughing - I was hurt at the time and I have a lot more to say about what I think goes on with the dynamic between us, but it helps to hear your side, because - I don't really KNOW what he is thinking or feeling, so I don't KNOW is he is upset with me when he walks away like that - I feel I have done nothing for which he should get mad at me, so I get angry that he is "punishing" me or being rude to me when I have done nothing wrong - just going along, being normal and WHAM! - Being normal I mean being available to communicate about something he said he WANTED to communicate about which was important to him. Like you said, exactly, if it is not going like he wants it to go, he just gives up and walks away, without even a by your leave. Without saying, could we talk about this later, or I need to think more about this and I'll get back to you. Nothing. Just ditches me.

Well - the short story is that he was upset about something OS said, and he did get back to me the next day and tell me all about it, and feels better. I do think he is avoiding facing what OS said to him, but I'll have to talk about that some other time.

I think it is helpful for me to relate these interactions, even though they seem trivial - if it helps you understand yourself and how you might be able to handle things differently - notice I didn't say better, but differently - and it helps me understand why my H behaves the way he does - with a view to helping him do things differently, so that we don't end up with all these angry feelings flying around, then that is absolutely great. That is about saving our marriages!!

Have to go now - hopefully will be able to post tomorrow. Have a good weekend everyone,

LIL - if you are reading - I am sorry for you, but I agree totally with JL - I can't get over to your post right now - I have been reading with you, but can't comment right now - your H is in the fog and everything he says is "fog talk" - he wouldn't be saying that if he wasn't having an affair - and everything he feels in relation to you is influenced by the new relationship he has - even if it is, in his mind "just a friendship" - its not. Its an affair. You are believing every word he says as if its already set in stone, and what you should be thinking is taking every word he says with a grain of salt. My H also has said there is no chemistry, he has lost the thread, only staying for the children, wants a divorce, does not want a plan for recovering our marriage, his "friends" are "just friendships", is not interested in reading or learning anything to do with relationships, bladebladebla. How come he is still in IC - how come he gave me all those presents? He is CONFUSED. And so is your H - full of pain, going for anything that will make him feel good, covering up, lying to himself, and everyone else. Like Neil said, all you can do is work on yourself. He may be totally different, and wake up in a year and want you back. Don't wait around for that - just continue to work on yourself - but if you still love him when and if that happens, you will know what to do.

Gotta go.

LIR

Hi LIR

Thank you for thinking of me in your post. I too have been meaning to come by here to add some thought to some of your situations - although as you know I always feel inadequate commenting on other people's threads - don't know why, just do.

Anyway, what I think is interesting about you and your H in your interactions, where he walks away, reminds me of what used to happen to H and I, which was put to us. I don't know if this may fit your situation.

Both H and I lost our fathers very young - H was 3 when his Dad died (at the age of 33), and I was 3 when my Dad left and moved to Canada - after that age we had little or no interaction with him. It was put to us by an MC that in our R when we walked away from each other, we were "raising the ratchet (sp?)", because both of us had suffered significant loss in our early years. It was also a very childish way to deal with adult emotions - don't want to talk about it, so will just go away. Even now, if H turns and goes to walk out on me I can't stop myself, I scream "Don't walk away from me". And even this week, when the conversation got tough, H said "I've had enough of this, I don't have to listen to this, I'm going". The child in both of us reacts.

As I say, I don't know if you and your H have had similarly defining experiences, but it is something to think about.

Look forward to hearing from you soon, but thank you for thinking of me too.

Thinking of you (and happy birthday to YS) in sunny London

Lisa.

Hello guys -

I'm COLD! Heating is on full blast - 2 shirts on, 2 sweaters, hot water bottle sitting on my tummy - frost is still on the ground outside - sun is shining brightly - I'm still cold - sometimes I have these days.

Just wanted to check in - feeling withdrawn, too - maybe because I'm so cold? Had a good day with YS birthday yesterday, and went out with H on Fri nite to see th 2 Towers.

Just feeling a little lonely, I guess - pity party, as they say. Shouldn't when so many others have it so much worse -

I think one relevant thing to say is that I think I obsess too much on our problems - yes, H has problems with intimacy - but for my part, I think I would have ended up with someone who had similar problems anyway - in other words, if I wasn't married to H, I would have been attracted to someone else who had "problems" - i think I have had a problem with discernment about what is healthy - combined with having compassion for people - and I have a lot of fear about people in general - all this comes from my childhood experiences and perhaps from my own nature as well - I can be a shy person underneath the smile.

So what I am trying to do now is take responsibility for myself - for how I am. Plan A, plan A, plan A. For me, plan A means trying to build my independence, my confidence levels, and not to fall into the easy road of isolating myself. I think my marriage, as it used to be, was something I used to hide myself from life, to a certain extent. It was easy to do this because the demands on me when the children were small were great.

I think what I am trying to say is that I am looking at myself as a kind of an addict - maybe I AM off-base here, and minimizing the role my H has played in this, but if I look at it that way - oops, the thought just hit me, is this the only way I can feel like I am in control of my life? A lot of things in my life are still out of my control - or - to be more accurate, I still do not have co-operation with my H on the things I feel we should be acting together on - finances, honesty, etc.

Am I confused or WHAT?

I think what I am trying to say is that I feel I should not be so dependent emotionally on what my H does or does not do. The question is, and its the kind of thing Bramble Rose answers so well - how is one supposed to be detached and still in a relationship? How detached can a person be and still consider themselves to be caring? How detached can you be and still be in a committed relationship? Aren't people in a committed relationship "intertwined" in terms of their emotional lives, their finances, their dreams for the future? How "intertwined" is healthy?
These are all the questions that rack my brain right now.

I muddle around with these thoughts because I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing here. And trying to pinpoint how I feel about my H. I would have to say that my impression of my H (which could be wrong) is that my H has always taken the view that his thoughts and feelings are none of my business. And he takes the view that if I want to KNOW what his thoughts and feelings are, there is something wrong with me. That's what I would really like to tell a MC in a nutshell. And if that is really what he thinks, then what is he doing being married? That doesn't seem to me to be consistent with the whole arena of what it means to be married. Hence the big puzzle in my head "Why did he marry me?"

I needed to try to put that down somewhere so I posted it here. That's about all I can manage for today - feel I have to move physically and get some work done - boy is it COLD!

Thanks all for getting this far.
LIR

<small>[ January 12, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I am determined not to be a victim. If H were in counselling with me, he would be able to hear me say what I have to say, which includes all the love I have had for him, and the commitment I have to our marriage and to our children.

My heart is breaking because I think I deserve better than this, and I am not willing to bring sons up in an environment where their father views their mother as only a "partial wife". In other words, if all I am here for is to provide the domestic services and comforts and an occasional carnal F**K, I can't see that that is good for the boys to see. What my H refuses to see is that the boys are seeing a relationship that is not loving and normal. My H expresses no physical affection for me in front of the boys (hugs and kisses) - he used to. My H does not have healthy conversations with me in front of the boys - he is difficult and argumentative or totally absent - eating staring at his plate, not meeting my eyes, challenging me on small things. There is very little actual partnership going on for the boys to see - just two solitary people revolving around each other in the same house, and bumping into each other and getting irritated. I can't see anything healthy about their growing up witnessing this kind of a relationship and growing up thinking this is normal and healthy. To accuse me of caring nothing for their happiness is an extraordinary lie - it is because I care about their mental health and their future happiness, that I would be willing to take them out of this sphere, where all they see in front of them is a father who no longer loves their mother.

I am willing to accept that our marriage is over. If H is already looking for OW3 (and I suspect he is, since I sense the same absence of affection that was present before), then I am obviously not able to offer him the kind of companionship he needs in life. I am willing to accept that. I have also repeatedly tried to address my own part in the breakdown of this marriage, to my husband in words, deeds and writing. I have yet to hear my H admit to me any part in the breakdown of this marriage.

Well, any comments will be most appreciated.
Do I think of my sons? Every day, every hour, every minute - I have been through this as a child - I watched my brother descend into the nightmare of paranoid schizophrenia which ended in death (May 2001) - I KNOW the cost of divorce. That is why I am still here. Divorcing my H will nearly kill me, not because of ME or my feelings, but because I do not want to see the agony on my sons faces.

By the way - what upset H the other night, in my post above, was OS yelling at him that he didn't want him to be his father anymore. H can't see that you can't hide these things from children. He blames me for this, I know. Never blames himself.

I'm going to sign off now and won't be back until tomorrow.

Sorry about this.
LIR

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

It has to hurt. It has to.

You have many thoughts going round in your head right now. Remember to give things a few days. You need some time to let some of this go.

I do believe that your H has been affected somewhat by this "friend". I don't believe he buys into it totally. There are two many things H is doing to try and reconcile. If he wanted to do a token reconcillation to look like the good guy, he wouldn't have hunted down all the gifts that he did. There are two many things like that - and you say it feels like ( in some ways) he does love you.

I still believe that MC can really help you both. I believe that you both want to make it work but are kept apart by your backgrounds, and expectations and lack of understandings.

If there is another person ( OP3) then all bets are off, but be careful not to read in things. At any rate, a month or two to confirm wouldn't make much difference to you, but would mean the world of difference to children in making sure.

I don't beleive you are going to do anything spur of the moment, but you need to hear this anyway just to reinforce things in your mind.

I'll be back with more, but wanted you to see this when you come back to edit.

( later edit)
I was going to comment on on some of your other posts, but I think I'll wait and see how you are doing in the morning. I worry about you, but not because I think you will fall apart. I worry because I hate to see anyone in pain. I don't go to really sad movies because I cry too much. My kids tease me. I'd really like to know how you are, and you have my prayers.

Please don't talk to H until you have some time to think. One of the reasons I always admonish you that way is because many times I have had to "repent" of speaking before I had all the information I needed. I don't want you to do that.

Let us know.

SS

SS

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thank you, ss -

I am not going to talk to my H about anything at all, so don't worry - I have done that in the past, but I have learned my lesson.

I have a counselling appointment a week from today - H asked if he could come to meet my counselor and I said that I would ask her about it. I also told him that I would be willing to come meet with his counselor and he said he would ask his counselor about that. I really don't know what else to do at this point.

I believe that the crux of the matter is the question of commitment. H and I appear to have different ideas about what commitment means. H appears to me to want an "open marriage" - a marriage where he is allowed to be in love with and have "love" relationships with other women, although he claims to be faithful to me since they are not sexual. I don't feel this is consistent with a commitment to marriage - it is a desire to have your cake and eat it, too. The marriage we had, troubled as it was, has disintegrated under the pressure of him demanding this kind of relationship from me. Contrary to what he claims, that I am demanding a relationship of extreme commitment that excludes him having ANY meaningful relationships with other people, both women and men, it is HE who has demanded that I support a relationship where he is free to have what Sartre and deBeauvoir called "contingent" relationships, and it is HE who claims that the discord in our home is due to my non-acceptance of this way of life.

I am not demanding anything of him. I have a right to expect that he honour the commitment to be my friend, companion, lover and partner in life and to keep himself only unto me as is consistent with the vows he freely offered to me in Christian marriage. The view he appears to have adopted of marriage is inconsistent with this. My feeling is that if he can no longer honour his commitment to me, then he should go. I do not want to be married on the terms he seems to want from me - providing domestic and sexual services inside the empty shell of what he calls a marriage - that is a marriage of convenience for one person - him.

I am very sad this morning. I have hung on to the idea that we could save our marriage, troubled as it was. I realize that I have loved my H very much, and I gave my marriage everything I had. I don't resent giving my time and dedication to my family at the expense of my own career. If I had it to do over again, I would still be a stay-at-home mom, because I believe that my children benefited in ways that cannot be calculated by this commitment I gave to them. The stress I experienced during that time was mainly due to my H being always busy with his own career and not being able to meet MY emotional needs. We argued from time to time, and I was depressed with PND following the births of both my children, which was adequately treated. I don't think this is any worse than a lot of married couples, and if my H loved me, he would not be using all of this as an excuse to justify his own bad behaviour.

I think the question for me is really a question of letting go. I think it is time to give up and just let it go. I know who I am. I am a kind person, without malice towards anyone, even "buddy". I am shocked at the malice shown towards me and hurt beyond measure that my H is twisting my words and actions to make me out to be some sort of twisted person. But I am not going to let other people define who I am. I have tried to behave honorably and honestly, kindly and caringly towards those I love. I have failed at times and lost my temper and my self-control. I am not perfect. I have had a fierce loyalty towards my H, which he has not appreciated, which in fact, he has hidden behind, and taken advantage of. He has protected his good Catholic reputation, and his professional standing within the Catholic church community by maintaining the facade of being a dedicated family man.

I think I am just going to go on being who I am - without malice towards anyone - but I am beginning finally to mourn the death of the marriage I once had, and that makes me very sad.

ss- you have consistently advised me to pray - I have to tell you that last week, during communion, I found myself praying for H, and in a split second, felt what it would be like to be praying for him as if we no longer lived together - as if I were praying for him and he was finally out of my life - it was a moment of real detachment - I was praying for him with love, but no longer was he in my life, tearing me apart. I also heard something say to me "Separate yourself from him" - this was so clear that I was startled - I thought "did I really hear you say that?". This happened during the moment of prayer during communion. I don't know what this means - I don't know if God is trying to tell me to detach myself while still living together, or if he means a physical separation. I have decided to pray for confirmation of what God means about this.

As to "buddy" - wierd - I think he is conducting a campaign against me - like Iago did to Othello - misrepresentation, twisting and spin - all tied up with his own screwed-up view of life and relationships. The point is that H buys it because he wants to believe that he is blameless and does not want to take responsibility for himself - its easy to listen to "buddy"'s view of the world and how "buddy" thinks it should be. As a Christian, I believe evil works its way through people like this, and I believe this is what is happening here. H has free will in this matter. His choices are his choices. If he decides to listen to the one who speaks with a forked tongue, its his choice. What's so appallingly sad is that he is totally letting down his sons and destroying everything he has worked so hard to build FOR THEM.

Well, got to get back to work now.
Thank you all for your love and support - you have been a Godsend to me.
LIR

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Dear LIR

I wish I could say something wise and helpful. Sadly I can't. Did you delete a post? I started to read an email that "buddy" had sent your H, but think it's gone. You certainly do not appear to be that person he was describing.

Hang in there - only you will know in your heart if the time has come to move forward without your H. Whilst everyone here can give wonderful advice and opinions, sometimes there just isn't the fuel left in the tank to deal with "it" anymore.

Whatever you decide, know that we all care and are thinking of you.

Lisa

Yes, Lisa,

I am not panicking - to my H, all is as "normal". But inside, I am nearly done here. I don't have much hope for our future together, and I have a right to decide what kind of a marriage I want to be involved in. I did not commit my life to this kind of a marriage and cannot continue to live with my H on the terms he seems to require of me. He meets none of my emotional needs right now, except for financial security, if you can call what he contributes to the family income security. We have no emotional life left together and I cannot rebuild what we had before, which was flawed even then by his lack of intimacy, without his wanting it. I think he just wants to go on living together, with nothing other than a homely, functional partnership. That's not enough for me - in fact, it is a living Hell.

I really appreciate your support, knowing how difficult a time you are having right now. Thank you so much. You are also in my thoughts and prayers.

LIR

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Dear LIR

I have read your post and feel so sad for you - it seems in some ways we are in similar positions. Hopeful Person said to me "You've given up hope", and I think that is what you are saying. All the times there are those little signs, or signals that things "might" change, you have hope that you can continue and somewhere down the line you will be able to rebuild. Once the hope is gone, for me at least, it is very hard to want to carry on or know how to carry on.

If I can help you in any way please feel free to e-mail (although frankly, I always think I'm not that good at advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but if it means that you can put down some words that have hurt you badly outside of the forum and have someone listening in a supportive way, then I'll be here for you. Funnily enough, a couple of weeks ago, I wanted to ask you if you'd be prepared to go off the board, but if you do mail me, I'll tell you more then.

Let me know when you get this so I can delete it from the post.

Lisa

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Dear Lisa,

I got your e-mail address, and yes, if you would like to e-mail each other off-forum, I would like to as well - although I often feel the same as you - I am not sure how helpful my advice can be. Yes, I think we do find ourselves in similar situations as far as hope goes. Its a low point for both of us, but I think we will both survive and grow, although there is much pain.

Be in touch.
Take care,
LIR