Hey.

I have not been here in a LONG TIME. I needed to share some fantastic news. Good news may brighten up your day, LIR, since you have helped me so much in the past.

Briefly, nothing changed, so I moved out into an apartment roughly 4 weeks ago, started divorce route, just before first letter to wife from attourney, she decided to give up OM and reconcile. YEAH!!! I am so unbelievably happy. No contact and commitments to us. The love is pouring back, both ways. I moved back in immediately. She has planned a vacation for just us (starts this week), parents watching kids, 10 days alone together which includes a 7 day cruise!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am so deeply in love with her, and I can see the love in her eyes for me when she looks at me. I have longed to see those loving eyes for a long long time.

Thanks for all your help!!!

Dream,
That is very good news. Many have asked about you over the last few months, it'g good to know that success can come. What a roller coaster ride, You will probably never go near one again.

Give our best wishes to your W for us, I know she read here once for a short time.

I know you are not finished yet with the work of rebuilding, keep us posted - OK?

SS

Dreamland -

Its funny - I pray every morning - I use the Book of Common Prayer from the Anglican church which prays through the whole of the psalms in 30 days, morning and evening prayer - and so I pray the morning psalms every day, and you are one of the people I have continued to pray for every morning - its like, I stack up all the people I am praying for behind me, and then I pray for them, as well as myself - I have often wondered about you, and hoped that things were going well for you - I knew that things couldn't be clear sailing - that you would be having your ups and downs, and I expect that your recovery will have its ups and downs, too -

but , boy am I glad to hear this news! I am glad for all of you, and yes! You did cheer up my day!
I know that you have grown as a person through this, and that you will continue to grow as the years go by - I really do wish you and your wife all the best, and I hope that she has finally seen the light and will begin to work 100% on your marriage together. I'll keep you in my prayers. Keep me posted once in awhile, OK?

Take care,
LIR

Hi ss - I hope your neck is better - and that your wife is feeling a little better, too - I know recovery from that can take awhile - a little at a time!

Also, thank you for directing me to Q's thread - yes, it is relevant to my situation - and I have identified co-dependency as part of my own personal make-up, although I don't honestly think I am DRASTICALLY co-dependent. I DO think my H is drastically co-dependent. The book I have says that two co-dependents are drawn to each other like magnets. Two co-dependents are drawn to each other across a crowded room! I do think that explains how and why my H and I began and could not let go of our R, but as to the continuance of the problems in our R, it takes two co-dependents to "wake up" in order for the patterns to have a chance of being replaced by healthier behaviour.

What I think I see in my H is the kind of secretive behaviour an alcoholic indulges in in order to continue his drinking - my first H (briefly) was an alcoholic and I lived with him for almost 3 years. I know what it feels like to live with an alcoholic. Right now I have those same feelings - but my H is not (apparently, or yet) an alcoholic. My H is addicted to the "high" he gets from having a secret R, even if he kids himself that it is "pure friendship" because its not "physical". He is still getting "high" behind the bicycle shed, as it were.

I also checked out "absentminded professor"'s thread over in Recovery, which I think is also relevant to me. AP is a recovering sex addict. I don't know that my H is a sex addict. I do know that he has occasionally liked print pornography, and that when we got the computer and got hooked up to the internet, he started looking at internet porn. I thought that most people had a look at this once in a while for curiosity's sake, and before D-day no. 1, I didn't know much about computers. My sis told me how "cookies" work, and I looked in the "cookie tin" and saw all these porn site cookies. Since I don't hide things from my H, and we were concerned about porn getting in front of the children while they use the internet, I told him about how "cookies" work. He was embarassed that I had found all these sex cookies, but I didn't get too upset about it. I didn't think my H had a porn addiction. Still, I sometimes think the worst thing I have done is show my H how to erase his tracks on the computer. Since he now knows how to delete the cookies from the computer, if he ever looks at porn, I have no way of knowing. The truth is, I will have no way of knowing what he is up to behind my back unless I put surveillance on the computer. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to handle what I might see, and like I said, even if I did uncover something that upset me, my only option at this point would be to go to plan B - and would that be the best thing? I guess I still feel "not ready" to take that step yet.

As to his behaviour - it feels suspicious - he was out Monday nite until 11:40, and he took a shower before he went out. He is also starting to grow some fancy sideburns - last time he had a "girlfriend", he grew a moustache. It all makes me feel very distant from him at this point. He went to his counselling last night, but grumbled about "having to go".

I guess I have been a bit gloomy about it, but Dreamland's news cheered me up, and I also am trying to keep my mind on my own goals - I talked to my boss today about my MA degree and am going to give her the stuff so she can ask our employer whether or not they will give me any money towards it - they have a training budget which is discretionary. She told me she wanted to do this for me. So that's a positive step.

I've gotta go now, but will check in tomorrow - hope you are feeling better and not too stressed.

LIR

Hi LIR,
Things are busy here but otherwise doing well. Neck somewhat better, W somewhat better ( except now she gives orders! ) No, I am teasing her, in case she reads over my shoulder ( she was here a minute ago, said she would be back.)

You are not crazy to have these fears about H. What kind of partner leaves until early morning and refuses to discuss where they go? That part is not good, and I wonder ( so do you) if improved commmunication can fix that.

Perhaps I am just now getting something you picked up long ago but I wondered these last few days if he is doing nice things for you because he believes then you will go along with his "2nd secret life" without causing him so much trouble. That kind of thinking is so different - that it is hard for me to comprehend. There are still other things it could be, we don't understand very much about human thought and action, even though we study it a great deal.

I would like to ask you a couple of things.

1. What things did you determine you had the power to change, and what have you done with them.

2. Darned if I can remember right now. It was on mind Saturday morning as I thought over some things, and now I have forgotten it.

I better understand your thoughts on change - when I first read the conversation you had with H about it, I did not understand what direction you were going with it. You are way ahead of me there, and I think you have thought it out very well.

One of your great strengths is your ability to think. You seem to be able to look at the many possibilities and narrow it down to one or two that have a high probability of being correct. I admire your ability to reason. I know that you fear mistakes but I point this out so you will learn to trust your ability. Most of the time, God expects us to figure things out, and if it is beyond our ability, he steps in with help. It can come as additional information, or it can come other ways - dreams, voices, and so on. If we seek him with all our hearts, he keeps us from error. I hope you are learning to trust your feelings also, and that you are learning to feel what is truth, and what is error. It is a gift, but often it is a learned gift. ( Your H has a musical gift, but it did not come without great effort.)

Still can't remember #2, perhaps my timing is off.

W never did come back, perhaps I should go and see what is happening.

SS

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello ss -

Glad to hear that you and your wife are both feeling better - as long as you take care of each other, you'll be fine!

Thanks for checking in on me - I have to admit I'm feeling a little down - weary, I guess. But it is actually a bright, sunny day, and I have some plans, so I am not going to sit at home and mope. I am home on half-term break for a week - I have OS home with me, YS is in school (different holiday schedule), H is at work - OS is watching TV right now. I am going to take him up to our allotment garden in half-an-hour or so, and then after lunch, I am going to go play squash with him. I am also going to make a hair appointment for myself, which I have been meaning to do for a long time. I am feeling lonely.

Why? I guess its the fallout from Valentine's Day. And the sense that while H was sick, he was kind and loving (mostly) - now that he's better, the distance is there again and growing. I can just feel it, and VD shows it up. He didn't do anything special for me at all - no card, no call, no flowers, no plans, nothing. In the past, he has always given me a card - once he bought me a whole set of small paintings, just because I had mentioned them in the shop window. I was wondering what I could do for VD that would be honest, so I gave him a card - it had 2 people, each holding one end of a string, which formed a heart between them - they were each leaning back and looked like they were pulling away from each other, but were still holding on. Inside, I wrote - "To H, I'm still here, love (me)", and I propped it up next to a small bunch of flowers I bought for him and put them in a vase. It was there on the table when he came home from work. He sat down with his cup of tea and a piece of cake right in front of it, but ignored it - he then took YS out to his violin lesson. Soon after they came back, H had a piano student come to the door and had to teach her. Before he went in to teach, YS pointed out the card to him - H said "Oh!", picked it up and opened it, then tossed it aside carelessly and went out to teach his lesson. I felt very hurt but didn't say anything. I was going to make dinner, but hadn't started yet. H came back in and said "You haven't started dinner yet, why don't we all go out?" So this was a last-minute "maybe I can make it up to her" effort. He gave me the telephone book and told me to see if i could find somewhere. Of course I couldn't - everywhere was fully booked up - when he was done teaching, and his student was gone, H came in and said that's too bad, well, lets all go out tomorrow night, then OS can come, too. He said VD was just a commercial event anyway.
Well, I guess I could accept this, except that even though H is not the kind to make a huge fuss over me, he has always given me a card before. Only last year did he not give me a card - he sent OW2 and e-mail Valentine last year. So I was sad.

Sat nite, we all went out to eat - now, we NEVER go out to eat as a family - its expensive in the UK - we go out to eat occasionally when we are on holiday, but this was a rare event - all of us going out to eat in a restaurant. It was fun - I tried to show my appreciation - kissed him, thanked him, said how much we all enjoyed it. Yesterday, H was at work all day. This morning he was monosyllabic and didn't even say goodbye to me when he left for work.

Positive signs from him? He was very aloof on Thurs morning - and made some comment that I was being cold towards him - I said "Well, you didn't hug me this morning, so how do I know what you want?" Something like that, not quite like that - making a joke out of it. He came and squeezed me (too hard) - I said a little hug always did wonders. Yesterday morning, he brought me a cup of tea and hugged me goodbye (I was still in bed).

Negative signs - the distance despite my affection - you said touching non-sexual usually leads to more. Always has in the past. Not lately. I have tried - a LOT - I have even made some blatant physical passes at him. The fish ain't biting, honey. He is keeping his distance sexually, physically, and emotionally, with only a few rays of light - like he's trying to make up for something.

Now, I know H - I know the intensity with which he can pour himself into contact with a woman - calls several times a day - e-mails, TXT msgs - I am not getting ANY of this anymore, not even calls to tell me what time he will be home for dinner. Something tells me something is up.

You said, Perhaps I am just now getting something you picked up long ago but I wondered these last few days if he is doing nice things for you because he believes then you will go along with his "2nd secret life" without causing him so much trouble. That kind of thinking is so different - that it is hard for me to comprehend. There are still other things it could be, we don't understand very much about human thought and action, even though we study it a great deal.

Yes, it is very hard to know what is really happening here - maybe he is just withdrawing completely and is not involved with anyone else, just hunkered down emotionally like a snail in his shell. But this is when the desire to snoop rears its ugly head again (I haven't).


I would like to ask you a couple of things.

1. What things did you determine you had the power to change, and what have you done with them.

2. Darned if I can remember right now. It was on mind Saturday morning as I thought over some things, and now I have forgotten it.

Yes, funny you should ask - while I was plodding along this morning with the dishes, I thought of your recommendation that I make a list of the things I was worried about that I wanted to change, and start doing something, ANYTHING - even if they were only small things. I need to revise this list. The big thing is getting underway with applying for my MA course. Nothing is ever going to change in my life if I can't take charge of my life, and this is my way out. It will take 3 years of hard work, but I know that I am capable of doing the work - i am just afraid of the mess with my H upsetting me emotionally, and failing. This is how I let my H control my life - as long as things are unstable with him, I feel afraid to put my mind and energies to things that I know I CAN do, fearful that I won't be able to finish. To help myself along, I have told other people that I am going to do this MA, so that I will have egg on my face if I don't. And this week, I also told my boss that I felt ready to apply for the program - she is expecting me to give her the info on the program when I come back next Monday - she said she would support me in trying to get some money from my employer. I am trying to box myself into a corner - like pushing a calf out through the chute into the ring at a rodeo!

I guess I am also feeling reflective because, as I told you, I am not going to my counselor right now. My H is going to her - AND his own counselor! - so I am feeling like I have no-one objective to talk to right now. The BBC is doing a series on domestic violence and abusive relationships this week and has a section on their website - I did their questionnaire and answered 8 out of 10 questions YES, which is pretty disheartening. The questions are not just to do with whether or not your partner is physical - its how you feel - are you afraid to voice your opinions, ask for what you want, articulate your feelings - all of the above for me. I have no feeling that I will get a positive response from my H on these things. Like, I want to get the work on our house done - it remains unfinished, and all the projects we started together - repapering the dining room, the bathroom floor, the kitchen floor, etc - H has done nothing on the house for years now. I want to talk about this, but am afraid to - that would mean discussing finances, which are off-limit - his total income is not a topic for discussion because he won't reveal how much he earns in a year. This is one reason why discussing my degree is difficult. i don't really know what our true monthly income is, so I don't know how much we can afford to spend in monthly payments on a degree for me. Why should my life be held hostage like this because of his need for control or secrecy?

One of your great strengths is your ability to think. You seem to be able to look at the many possibilities and narrow it down to one or two that have a high probability of being correct. I admire your ability to reason. I know that you fear mistakes but I point this out so you will learn to trust your ability. Most of the time, God expects us to figure things out, and if it is beyond our ability, he steps in with help. It can come as additional information, or it can come other ways - dreams, voices, and so on. If we seek him with all our hearts, he keeps us from error. I hope you are learning to trust your feelings also, and that you are learning to feel what is truth, and what is error. It is a gift, but often it is a learned gift. ( Your H has a musical gift, but it did not come without great effort.)

Most of my family tell me I over-analyze things to death!! LOL I do think sometimes I do it to compensate for the "fog" I feel I am in, and out of fear. But I also have started to to see it as a drive to know the truth, however painful.

I think as time goes on, time is revealing my H to have an addictive problem with EAs and OW, and the charge he gets out of secrecy - the sense of control he gets out of maintaining control over some area of his life. This is not my problem, and like any other addiction, there is nothing I can actively do to change him or make it "better". He won't change unless he wants to, and he won't want to if there is no reason to.

Well, this is very long - and you are a champ if you have got through this - I needed to talk to someone, so I'm glad I got this off my chest. Now OS is rightfully restless, so I have to go. But I am sure that posting this has saved me from calling and talking depressively to someone else, or ending up LBing with H out of depression. I wonder if H will stay out late tonight? I am watching for patterns, you see.

Take care, ss - you must have sent us some AZ sunshine!

LIR

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

P.S. I know this thread is mostly a conversation between me and ss, but I appreciate any other comments anyone might have to say - ss, you have been a Godsend to me, and I appreciate the times you have listened - I also appreciate that your wife is so supportive of you. What I am trying to do is build my confidence and independence - I have got so much out of MB - reading and learning from "lurking", and all the support you have given me. My goal though, is to be strong, so that I also will have something to offer others in the way of encouragement and support. Right now I feel sort of "in limbo" - still confused about what is actually going on in my M. I feel I am getting stronger, and less "dependent" on MB - but I value the advice and insight I receive here - very often I think my own fear clouds my perception, and others help me see things from a different angle, or entertain the possibility that there might be a different explanation for something than the one I think. My interpretations of things are not always right - often driven by anxiety.

Well, just to say that I had a reasonably good day and that things are fine - H was home for a few hours and although aloof to start with, warmed up a little and joked a bit, now he's gone out to work again. Another explanation for his behaviour is that he is depressed - maybe the counselling is bringing up stuff for him which he doesn't like. So perhaps I am jumping to conclusions about there being an EA3. I don't really feel like finding out right now anyway - I am recalling someone on here who was talking about co-dependency - "I'm better when I focus on me. When I focus on her problems, then I know I'm heading for trouble." And that's it in a nutshell. Focusing on his problems and what he might/might not be doing makes me feel anxious and depressed. I need to shift my focus for the time being. Sometimes its hard.

Thanks everyone for listening. It helps to be able to talk in cyberspace, knowing it is anonymous, although I have to admit, I fear sometimes that my H will discover my thread and all Hell will break loose. There goes the anxiety voice again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Caught myself!

Well - gotta go. Will update when I can this week. Wishing everyone all the best.

LIR

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I read the dream, you can edit.

You have givem me a lot to think about. I don't know when I can comment properly, hopfully soon.

SS

ss - don't worry about trying to interpret the dream - I forgot to say that I have talked about it with my counselor, so I feel OK with its meaning - for me, its more how I manage to go about making the right kinds of changes in my life.

Can't talk now - thanks for listening - I'm OK.

Hope your wife is getting better.

LIR

Hi LIR
Just to let you know I still read but find it difficult to know what to say. I understand the hurt you felt over VD- it was VD 2 years ago that sealed the situation with H and I- he did send me flowers but also took anothe W out for a meal that night and then tried to tell me it was not romantic! I know its hard feeling he has a 2nd life and that it appears you are condoning it but it is still easier to 'fight 'for your M while he is living with you. Hang in as long as you can.

Jante

Thanks jante for the encouragement - things "feel" very wearing right now, so I needed the boost. I'm sorry about your experience of VD 2 years ago - I can imagine how you must have felt, and I know the pain doesn't ever really go away. I appreciate you sharing that with me.
It was good to be reminded that at least if H is here, I have a better chance of "fighting" for my M.

H and I had a long talk last night - he initiated it, after the kids were in bed. He had both counselors yesterday, one in the am, and our joint counselor in the pm. H came home looking very sad and tired. I feel that H is deeply depressed and tired - wondering how all this counselling is going to help us, feeling like we are getting nowhere. He wanted to talk and sat himself down by the fire, while I sat across the room on the sofa. For most of the conversation, he was the picture of dejection, leaning forward with his face in his hands. It was very painful for me to see him so low.

He is upset that OS knows as much as he does about our conflict. He senses the loss of esteem that OS has for him. He started off blaming me for this, saying I didn't have to tell him so much, that he didn't need to know. I explained why I thought it was important to talk to them and be as honest as we could, although I said I agreed it wasn't necessary to tell them all the gory details. But that this had been going on a long time, and I had been left with both of them at one time or another, crying in my arms after he had stormed out in a rage, and I was left being the one who had to explain things as best I could. I didn't say that I was always right in how I did it, but I understood their anxiety, because I had been through it myself as a child.

H was very dejected. We talked about the conflict between us, the "anger" problem that he thinks I have, and why that could be. I finally said that if it helped him to understand, that my angry outbursts, the way I used to shout back at him and make a scene was a conscious decision on my part. I thought that by defending myself strongly, I was standing up for myself and not allowing him to treat me badly. I was determined that I was not going to allow him to treat me badly. I even decided, after we had kids, that I could not allow them to see their mother being treated that way without them seeing me putting up a fight. I thought it would be worse for them to see me accepting being beaten down. He didn't like hearing any of this. It doesn't jive with the picture he has of the situation - that I have been an angry, volatile person who gets mad at him for no reason, and he has always had problems dealing with this aspect of my character. I think it must have come as a shock for him to hear that this was actually something I chose to do in reaction to how he was treating me. He will admit that some of the things he has done to me are bad, but he has often said "any man would get mad at what you said to me". This is classic abusive behaviour - blaming the abused for provoking the aggressive response. He continually tried to shift the responsibility for his anger on to me - he accused me of being aggressive - he kept saying "you hit me" - and then when I would try to use an example from his past history, he would say "now your'e just trawling up old history". So I would say - "so its OK for you to trawl up the fact that I hit you once, but never OK for me to articulate what you have done to me? You can bring up old history to justify your view of the situation, but I cannot". And he would get frustrated. At one point I said I was scared, and that I was afraid the conversation would escalate out of control. He remonstrated with me that he wasn't being angry, and hadn't been explosive, so I was "pre-empting" his reaction.

It was all very tense, but ended quietly. We both went to bed quietly (together). I am not sure. It may be that H is finally starting to realize the consequences of his own behaviour, and it depresses him. He is finding it very hard to admit that his behaviour throughout our marriage is a big factor in the breakdown of our marriage. He hates thinking about it and it depresses him. I don't know what the result will be. I just have to keep praying.

Thanks for listening.
LIR

Well, perhaps we are making some babysteps forward.

After Tues nite's conversation, I had a busy morning on Wed. H had the morning off and decided to spend it with OS, and they went and played squash together. I taught a lesson, then went and had my hair cut, and then went and had a long lunch with one of my girlfriends. When I got home, there was an envelope on the table with my name on it. Inside was a postcard of a Madonna, and on the back he had written "Dear X, Thank you very much for your card. Yes, you ARE still here, and so am I! Therefore it ought to be possible to work something out, oughtn't it? I'm glad you enjoyed the Thai food, with love from H".

I cried when I read this, because this is the first written communication I have had from him since D-day1 (June 2001). He hasn't responded to any of my notes and letters. The only note he has given me before was the angry note he threw on the table following our disastrous MC session in Oct.

Its been a long road, but this is the first sign I have from H that says he actually wants to work something out. I have felt that up until now, he has been angry and not sure that he really wants to try to work this M out. He has been going to counselling, but I have felt that that was not a sign of commitment to the M, it was more a way for him to deal with the stress of our conflict, and to try to help him explore his feelings about what he wants and what is happening to us. Not until this note have I felt that there was an indication that we both wanted to try to work together to save our M.
I hope that is what it means.

After we finished talking on Tues eve, I remembered what you had said before, ss, that he is looking for hope, and I need to give him reasons for hope. I felt that I had not picked up on that need in him on Tues nite, but maybe the way I talked to him, what I said and how I said it, helped to give him the hope he needed to write that card.

I remembered that, ss, and later, when I had a chance, I thanked him for his card. I then said that I would not still be here if I didn't think there was a chance we could work things out, and he said "Yes, well that's right." Agreeing with me.

When he started the conversation on Tues nite, he had asked "Where do you feel we are going with this?" and I had answered "I don't know" - I then said I had been waiting, just waiting for him to get some idea, and give me some indication of what he wanted to do. Later, I said that I felt that we were both in the refiners fire right now, and that our job was to sift through ourselves and try to sift out the ways and behaviours we were both doing which were destructive to each other and to our children. I told him this wasn't just about him - yes, I felt that there were serious problems in how he treated me, but this was not just about him, it was about me, too, and I had been working on myself for the last 3 years, trying to eliminate the destructive things I used to do. I said I had found, since our bad row in the summer of 2000, that I needed to pray and read the Bible every day in order to keep my mind turned towards the good, otherwise, I found myself blown this way and that by the strength of my conflicting emotions, and the events of each day. And in my prayer, I prayed for God to show me my faults - I had tried to eliminate the angry outbursts - shouting back, calling names, exploding in frustration, being judgemental (this was the hardest thing for me, since I tried so hard to figure things out and rationalized so much), threatening, making demands. God had shown me that I did all these things and I had tried hard to stop. This seemed to be interesting to him and he perked up and said "good, that's good". I said that I could not control what he did, and I could only be responsible for myself, that all I was trying to do was be a better person. I didn't want to look back on this time and feel ashamed of myself. I knew that I would have regrets, but I would have to live with that, no-one goes through life without making mistakes.

Maybe it was this that helped him. I feel that it is MB and the support I have received through MB that has helped me learn all that, and I would not have been able to have that conversation with H and stay calm, even though I felt frightened, had I not learned what I have through MB. Our R has been very troubled, and we are not "there" yet - I feel we have a long long way to go. I think we have to build even the basic groundrules of a married relationship still, but I have a little hope now that we might be able to do that.

One other thing happened yesterday - the BBC is running a series on abusive relationships and yesterday, there was a segment on Blue Peter about domestic violence. The boys both watched it with deep interest. H came in the room while they were watching and stood watching it with them. I had left the room when I heard him coming, I did not want him to think that I had put them up to watching it. After it was over, YS turned to H and said "I remember the time you threw a mug at Mummy". Now, H has never thrown a mug at me - he threw the peppermill at me once, but that was before YS was born (H says that when he threw it he deliberately missed). I told YS that Daddy had never thrown a mug at me and what time did he mean - he said that time you had the fight in the kitchen (the time I punched H - I punched H after he had wrestled me around the kitchen by the neck, trying to wrench the hot iron out of my hand - its a long story). YS did not witness that. but he heard the commotion. I explained to YS that Daddy had not thrown anything at me. He said that was what he thought he heard. YS was also heard the time when H started shouting at me to get out and tried to shove me out the back door and ended up wrestling me to the kitchen floor (in Oct) - YS did not see that either, but came into the kitchen and asked me why I was sitting on the floor - I said I had slipped. I think this has made my H think about the effect his behaviour has had on the boys (FINALLY) - because he realizes that they are blaming him and siding with me - they have ears, and they have eyes, and they have seen enough and heard enough to cause them a lot of anxiety. I am hoping this is helping this to sink in and make H think about it.

Thank you everyone who has been here for me. From the bottom of my heart.

LIR

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I've heard your song three times on the radio....... in the last few days, and I smile each time I hear it.

I hope things have settled down a little at our house now. Been an interesting two weeks. W had to go back in because of complications, they replaced a few tubes and she goes in again tomorrow to get them out once more. Towed another car to garage yesterday. Water heater burst on Monday , they delivered the wrong one on Tues. The right one came on Wed, installed it finally, but did not get to work until after noon. After two weeks like this, behind at work. You can laugh at me if you want, I do. This is what I call "real life." It happens to everyone in one form or another.

All of it is better than spouse having an A, glad I have that perspective. I don't cry about this stuff, and I seem to be able to cope.

But................ I haven't been here for a few days. That's why I smile when I hear that song play. I smile because I know I can't do much about posting, or help much for a while. I do think about you ( and many others here.)

I read your posts just now, and I get a strong feeling that you are doing just right. Very strong feeling. I hope you feel that also, and not the doubt and fear that the enemy is so good at spreading. While we really don't know what will happen, I see more and more hope.

I once spoke to my W about a hurt I believed I had received at her hands, and she said, " Do you think I tried to hurt you on purpose? Or is it just that I am not perfect and I make mistakes."
She sometimes makes mistakes. I often make them, your H makes them. It sounds like he cares about you.

I see so much good in your home right now. I see your sons are aware of what goes on around them, I see that they try and help the family. I see H struggle with himself and his feelings and even try to change his patterns and habits into better things. I see you learn and apply what you learn so that you are able to get out of the destructive pattern of conversation and argument that has been somewhat normal in the past.

We had a family meeting on Monday night and my 18 year old daughter brought up how I am still sometimes critical of my W. We discussed it for a time and then went on to other things. W said later that she spoke to daughter and told her that perhaps she didn't notice the change in me in the last two years ( W related this part to me.) Daughter said yes, she did but that I have a ways to go still before I am "cured."

I asked daughter what had made her bring this up, and she said, " I worry that I will be like you were, and I don't want to be that way." Very sobering thoughts for a father and husband to hear.
I have said before that I come here for help, and I do get it. Fact remains that I need help, that I am not finished improving, nor will I be finished any time before I die. I can say that the journey is much more pleasant than it was a few years ago. My W agrees.

I have some odd thoughts sometimes. When we get to heaven ( OK,.... if ......we get to heaven, or if I get there, ) will we be able to choose our neighbors? I think you and Jante would make great neighbors. And no worries about A's there either.!!! BTW, to address your tendency to analyze stuff, I say this last part as a compliment to Jante and to you. I believe you both are fine people and I want to try and convey that somehow.

I hope you feel as good as you sound right now. When I read the dream first thought that came to me is that I should not try to interrupt it. ( couldn't anyway.)

I do have some thoughts about parts of it, along with other things you have said. You have commented that you are lonely more than once. We are not meant to be alone, are we. It's easy to tell that after being in love.
Both dreams that you have related have spoken strongly ( to me) about your loneliness. I hope your H will fill this void in your life for you in the ways you need. I hope it is soon, and often that he can step up and do this for you. Is it time for H to read HNHN?

Well, I ramble sometimes, don't I. I am being paged, so will see what it's about. I have very high hopes that you will be able to do what you need to do. I have faith in you.

( Later Edit)
the other day I posted and I couldn't remember question #2. It wasn't a question. It just flashed back to my mind. I wanted to let you know again what I said above - I am still working on things myself. I'm not sure why I wanted to get that across again, but it was important to me that morning, and came into my mind again today. All of us are " works in progress" and I am glad your H is showing at least a little bit that he wants to make M work. You need that from him after so long a struggle.

SS

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear ss,

Thanks so much for the pep talk - things do seem to be going well. I have the odd feeling for the first time ever, that we might actually be "in recovery". H has been kind and more humane, more loving, ever since Wed when he left me that note, and it doesn't feel "forced" or like he is harbouring resentment. Yesterday we took the boys out for the whole day and all had a great time together.

I'm sorry your wife seems to be having a difficult recovery - I hope it all gets better soon - not fun to be in pain and have to go through that. Sounds like it never rains but it pours at your house - lots of gremlins tinkering with the machinery? In our house, the toilet valve broke last night, so we have to flush with a bucket of water today - can't call the plumber until tomorrow! At least the water heater still works (although it is leaking). H seems to be taking an interest in getting things fixed again, which is good.

I was interested in what you said about the conversation with your daughter. This is something which can be a problem in our house, too, although our kids are still small, and have not reached the rebellious teenage stage yet. OS, who is just 10, is, though, showing signs of bucking H's "instructional efforts".

The way it appears to me, H doesn't mean to be critical, and H doesn't realize that he comes over as being critical. Therefore, when others in the family react to him and reject his "helpful suggestions", he feels very hurt. I think in H's mind, H thinks "my way is the best way". H may recognize that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but he still thinks that he has figured out the best way, and he tries to get everyone around him to do it his way, because he KNOWS its the best way. H doesn't recognize that children and other people (grown-up children) sometimes need to learn on their own and that it is possible to have 2 adequate ways of doing things going on in the same household at the same time.

For example, with me, with cooking - I worked for five years as a baker in a restaurant - you would think that of all things, I would know how to core strawberries, since it was part of my job for years to wash and core whole flats of strawberries. But no, H has to come over and carefully and kindly (truly) show me the best way to core strawberries, which is the way his mother taught him - with a little grabber thing which leaves part of the white in. I use the tip of a paring knife and take all the white out, which is tart to taste, and also whip out any rotten bits. I am fast. I have to be patient and not lose my temper when H does stuff like this. I could take it as a criticism that I am not doing it right, according to him.

He also tries to show me how best to peel potatos, boil rice, fry eggs and bacon, etc. Although, after 15 years living together, I think he has improved a lot on this front. But you know what I mean.

With the boys, it is much harder. They ARE children and do need guidance. But I think he should be more relaxed. For example, I have this new allotment garden plot - its a big patch in the communal garden, which I rent for £12/yr to grow vegetables. At the present time, its still mostly dirt - read mud, after the winter. We went up there a few days ago and dug over patches of it and planted carrots and onions. YS and OS are stomping around it without a thought. I have marked out squares that are dug over, weeded and raked, and I don't want them going in those areas. They don't. But as far as I am concerned, they can do what they want on the rest of it - dig WWI trenches, dig holes, you name it, I don't care - let 'em have fun. H got uptight about it and started telling them they shouldn't walk on the soil, because it compacted it down where it has already been dug. He is right - it does compact the soil. But the point is I am nowhere near to being ready to plant it yet and will have to dig it over anyway when the time comes. H thinks they need to be taught not to walk on the soil. I think that can come later. I can't see the point of them sitting on the grass, doing nothing, just staring at all that mud waiting to be dug in, you know what I mean? Well, H conceded to me on this point, but grudgingly at the time.

The thing is, this quality of H's goes back to his own upbringing, and his own parents. His parents are the most rigid people I know. For them, there is only one way - their way. H hates that. But H doesn't recognize that he has the same behaviour in some ways, just about different stuff. He may be a lot more liberal about the things he eats, but he is just as particular about what he thinks is the RIGHT way to do something. I do think that if he doesn't get a grip on this, he is going to have some serious problems with the boys bucking his "authority" when they are older.

You said that you now recognized that "different does not necessarily mean bad", when we were talking about driving skills, and this is more or less what I am talking about. I think that your wife gave you a fantastic thumbs up there, which you should be proud of. It must have been hard for you to hear daughter say what she did, but we parents do tend to blame ourselves for everything where our children are concerned. She will have things she will have to work on in her own life, too. And some of it may be because of experiences she had growing up - the sad thing as parents is that try as hard as we might, with the best intentions in the world, we all end up damaging our own children in some way - my own mother told me this and I think she is right - we deal with it by declaring our love for our children, wearing our hearts on our sleeve where they are concerned and trying to build good communication so that we can help them with the problems they have as they go through life, even as adults.

I know that my own parents have both felt responsible for what they have been seeing me go through, and both have tried to help and guide me through. Both have apologized for the hurt and damage they caused all of us by their own unresolved marriage problems. My dad especially has had to face the damage to his children's lives. I have to say that I love my dad with all my heart and carry no resentment against him any more since he has faced up to this. My father, in the past few years has been totally honest with himself and faced up to his failures in life, without trying to shift the blame for any of his own mistakes on to someone else. Perhaps thats why he is finally able to quit drinking. Sometimes these battles take place over the course of a lifetime, but the love parents and children have for each other, if declared and nurtured, which also entails the parent letting go and not trying to control the child, that love is the strongest love of all and has the potential to really grow and flourish as the child grows into adulthood. I know my R with my father has done so, and I am sure that yours with your children will do so, too.

Well, I hope this is helpful to you - hope things are improving on the frontline there. Hope you have a good weekend and will check in some time this week.
LIR

Hi LIR,
It is so good to hear this, I have waited a long time for it.
Thanks so much for the pep talk - things do seem to be going well. I have the odd feeling for the first time ever, that we might actually be "in recovery".

I keep hoping and praying for this for you, and for everyone here. I can hear the hope in your voice, and it is a very good thing.

H has been kind and more humane, more loving, ever since Wed when he left me that note, and it doesn't feel "forced" or like he is harbouring resentment. Yesterday we took the boys out for the whole day and all had a great time together.
There really is good in him, isn't there. I hope you thank him for it.
"H, I don't know if you have noticed but things are more comfortable around here lately, and I want to thank you for your part in this............"

I'm sorry your wife seems to be having a difficult recovery - I hope it all gets better soon - not fun to be in pain and have to go through that.
She is doing much better today, much better, and thanks.

In our house, the toilet valve broke last night, so we have to flush with a bucket of water today - can't call the plumber until tomorrow! At least the water heater still works (although it is leaking). H seems to be taking an interest in getting things fixed again, which is good.
See, it's part of life, and I was about to say not the part we enjoy, but I am learning to laugh at it, and be happy anyway.

I think in H's mind, H thinks "my way is the best way". H may recognize that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but he still thinks that he has figured out the best way, and he tries to get everyone around him to do it his way, because he KNOWS its the best way. H doesn't recognize that children and other people (grown-up children) sometimes need to learn on their own and that it is possible to have 2 adequate ways of doing things going on in the same household at the same time.
I often think this way, and most of the time I believe I come up with the best way. I am learning to offer help when asked, and leave things alone if not asked. As MB says it, " Don't teach when there is no student present." As you explain, H is sometimes wrong, and so am I. It is hard to admit mistakes, but If I will not, then W and children will not. If I admit error, laugh at myself, and apologize, then W and children will also. Hmmmm, seems to be a lesson here - for me more than anyone. That takes time, if your H continues to improve, he will get it someday.

With the boys, it is much harder. They ARE children and do need guidance. But I think he should be more relaxed.
He has his example from his parents, and it is very hard to unlearn years of training. Again, if he wants to change, it will come with time. After you start MC, you can develop ground rules for talking about things, but already you are doing better. Resist the urge to do it all now because he will finally listen a little. I think you already know this, but thought I would throw it in, just for fun.

H thinks they need to be taught not to walk on the soil. I think that can come later. I can't see the point of them sitting on the grass, doing nothing, just staring at all that mud waiting to be dug in, you know what I mean? Well, H conceded to me on this point, but grudgingly at the time.
As you learn that he loves you, and he learn that you love him, this will come more natural. We have spent hours on similar things, trying to get to understand the other's point of view. Getting better, but I suspect we will never agree 100% on everything. You are already happier, but you wonder how to get these things across to him. Again, give it time, and for now, explain your thoughts on things when you disagree and also smile a lot and bat your eyelashes. Whatever works, I always say.

The thing is, this quality of H's goes back to his own upbringing, and his own parents. His parents are the most rigid people I know. For them, there is only one way - their way. H hates that. But H doesn't recognize that he has the same behaviour in some ways, just about different stuff.
Ops, I forgot you already went there, I didn't need to mention it above.

I do think that if he doesn't get a grip on this, he is going to have some serious problems with the boys bucking his "authority" when they are older.
He has about 3 - 4 years and if you can get marriage in better shape in a year, you can begin to work on these other things. You can do much for boys in the mean time. If you continue to pray, you will find ways to help them anyway. We are more aware than our parents of things that shape our lives and our children's lives. We can help our children if we put thought and prayer into it and seek Gods help. Jante has come far in the last year, from asking for help, to teaching other parents how to cope with the problems. It can be done, but you already know that.

Well, I hope this is helpful to you - hope things are improving on the frontline there.

Yes, and yes. Thank you again.

One of your top emotional needs is communication. Does your H know this?
He does not, and it is one of the causes of your loneliness. When you thank him for helping things get better, perhaps you could find a way to communicate that to him. It is also one of the reasons that his secret life bothers you so much. Communication is important to you, and that includes communication about him, and what he is doing. I have thought about suggestions but at this point, you can probably do better than I can suggest. Again, is it time for him to read HNHN?

I repeat that I feel you are on the right track. Mostly you need time for this to work. You can help him a great deal by thanking him for his part in bring peace to your home. Thank him for specific things that he does, or for things that he no longer does that bothered you. Setbacks will come, ignore them and continue.

SS

( Later Edit)
W told me last night she wanted to log on to MB and read with me. Said she wanted to do something with me that I liked and didn't feel like watching TV ( to much of that in the past few weeks) so we read for a while. When she read this part
He also tries to show me how best to peel potatos, boil rice, fry eggs and bacon, etc. Although, after 15 years living together, I think he has improved a lot on this front. But you know what I mean.
I was watching her and she looked like she wanted to say something - so I asked her to go ahead. She shook her head no, so I said it for her. " He is so much like me it is crazy." And she laughed and said "Yes, crazy, but you ARE so much alike - maybe all men do it."

I asked her if she had any words of wisdom this time and she just said "no, you lay things out in a logical way and are a good help, just keep talking with people."
Sometimes I wonder just how much I help, but I get a lot from this for myself. I kmow your time is limited, but you help others also with your comments. You know what you are talking about.

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello - thank you for your ideas, ss - I'm sorry I haven't been back to post in a few days - I have had a busy week and I've also been sick, but I'm getting better now. I'm glad your wife read with you - I hope she is feeling better also.

I appreciate your comments - yes, I think communication is one of my top emotional needs. Unfortunately, I don't think my H has even got the concept that I have emotional needs, much less that he ought to do something pro-active about trying to fill them. I know that sounds cynical, but its not really meant to be. I think you might be right - that HNHN would be good to read - but he already said he is NOT, i repeat, NOT interested in reading any books. So I could read it myself, and then leave it lying around, maybe?

I am feeling more and more anxious that my H might find my posting here, and I think that if he did find me here, at this point, he would just blow his top. He came back from Tues. counselling session with my counselor a little discouraged. He said that she said something that made him feel that she was biased towards me, and although it was good that he was talking to me about this, and we did discuss it in depth, he is definitely wanting to "run" and is feeling uneasy about going to counselling together - he says he is tired of this, and not sure. I stayed calm and said I understood how he might have felt that way, but that we seemed to be heading in a positive direction right now, and I thought we should just take it slow and keep going forward. Like I said to Deluded - I feel like I am leading the horse to water, but I cannot make him drink - that's got to be his choice.

What I am worried about is that he will reject everything the counselor says that he doesn't like, by saying "she's on your side still, since she WAS your personal counselor". I'm afraid this is not going to "work" - that he is going to use that excuse every time he hears something he doesn't like. I got kind of down, thinking this way, but this morning, I thought, well, you're just going to have to let him "win" the first battles, so that it can be proved the counselor is also on "his" side. Only then will there be a chance he might listen to her, if she "sides" with me in future "arguments". I hate putting it in these combative terms, but that is the level my H lives on right now - who's right/wrong - who's good/bad. I would like to get past relating like this.

He said he wanted us to go together on Tues. so I might "go dark" for awhile here. That's what I am thinking. But I will be lurking - so don't be afraid to ask how I am if it seems I disappear for awhile. What I would most like is to be able to come here and help people without fearing a backlash from my H.

I need to go now, but I appreciate your kindness and insights, ss -

Take care, and ciao for now!
LIR

I am thinking about some things related to your post, I don't know if anything written will come from it or not. Often they go round and round in my mind before I type.

One question, or perhpas comment to see if I am thinking corectly.

Not wanting H to find this would mean this thread getting lost probably. So, If I wanted to post to you, I would have to start a thread about something. I worry about you not because you aren't thinking correctly, but because will be loosing both your C and then this forum.
Reason I bring this up is I once posted on a thread even though the owner was absent for a while. I had some thoughts come to me quite strongly to post there, quite surprised me.

Oh well, if you need to vent, you can always start another thread and be vague. Your user name wouldn't matter at that point if this thread was buried deep.

Still thinking.

SS

Hi ss - thanks for the comments and suggestions - and thanks for being concerned about me, about where I am going to get the support I need. Yes, I do see MB as good support, and yes, I feel the need to protect my privacy from my H, not because I am doing anything I ought to feel ashamed about, but because my health and safety (both physical and mental) is not his primary concern right now. He is not in that place yet, where he puts my health and safety, or care and protection, over his own personal needs, or what he considers to be his own personal needs. So I feel the need to protect myself from him still.

I have been thinking about this Tuesday's MC session, and frankly, feeling anxious - I don't know what to say. I asked him again if he wanted us to go together and he said yes, so we're all systems go at this point. But if I am confronted with questions like "what do you think are the problems in your R that you would like to change?" I don't know what I would say that would not make my H feel "attacked". So I am trying to first, clarify what I really think are the "problem areas", and second, decide which are the safest to discuss at this point, even if they are not the most important. But then the counselor might not take that approach - I just don't know what is going to happen. I would far rather sit there and have him point the finger at me, and demonstrate that I can take responsibility for the things I have done badly and talk about how I have tried to change, than have to tell him what it is I am having trouble with as far as what HE does.

But the truth is, for me, it boils down to one fact - my H seems to have a compulsive need to have a secret life, and that is anathema to me. I babysat for some friends last night, who know us both, and know we have been having these problems. The H said he can't even conceive of wanting to have a life - friends, finances, activities away from home, that his wife didn't know about. The way that my H lives his life - with his private bank account, his private cellphone, his private e-mail account, his private relationships, his own friends, is something my friend's H said he cannot even conceive of wanting. He said he wants his life to be with his wife - he doesn't even dream of hiding anything from her. I know his wife very well and know that she is a survivor of child sexual abuse. I know the kinds of things he does for her that demonstrate how much he loves her - he has to deal with her fears and the way she expresses her fears. But they do it - they talk together, and they are tremendous friends who love each other deeply and take care of each other. That's the kind of relationship I want and I don't see why I can't have it. I feel like my H is trying to convince me that it is somehow "normal" for a spouse to have a private life, but I just don't buy this. I am also very defensive - I feel that he has told all his friends that I am a sick person because I will not accept him having this so-called "normal" private life - in other words, he presents his case in such a way that it makes me look horribly possessive and invasive of his "privacy", and, by implication, sick.

The truth is that my view - like that of my friends - is the normal one, and I am normal for having the angry and hurt reactions that I have. His view is the world of marriage stood on its head, and he is trying to convince me that his way is the "normal" way.

Those are the thoughts that keep arising in my mind today, and I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else. I could always say that communication is a problem, physical affection is a problem, quality time is a problem, but those are all off-shoots of the bigger problem. Those problems are there because of the deception and secrecy inherent in his chosen way of life. That's my perception of things. Maybe I am wrong, but that's more or less how it feels.

I think this is something of a "get-it-off my chest" anxiety post, so I think I will leave it there. I would like to keep posting here - and the truth is that I may find it very hard to stay away - but I will have to see how it goes after Tuesday.

Don't worry - I won't disappear down a black hole - I do though worry about not being able to support some of the people I have come to know here - Deluded, jante and LIL.

Ciao for now,
LIR

Dear LIR,

I just checked in to see how you are. I wanted to let you know that you are indeed a wonderful supporter to me and I do appreciate your posts.

One thing I am holding on to at the moment is something that is often repeated here-take each day at a time. I know when I start thinking of the " big picture" I become very down and can't imagine how I will ever put the pieces of my marriage back together. I think you are doing the same when you reflected on your friends' marriage.

There are lots of positive things happening with your H,LIR, and he IS going to counselling at least. And he is home with you. I think, although the marriage you describe sounds good, although you never know what goes on between 2 people,that it is possible to have a good marriage and have separate friends and to a degree, interests. Obviously not to the extent that your H has done. But my point is that-it works for them,you and your H have to create something that works for you.

I will keep looking for your thread ,though I don't feel I have much wisdom to offer.!

best wishes,

Deluded

Hi guys,

Thanks Deluded, for your comments - yes, it is good to be reminded that "one day at a time" is the best way to handle things - that's exactly what is happening to me right now - I want to title this post HELP! - I'm working myself into a total frazzle emotionally because this MC session is coming up tomorrow eve, and I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY! Its as if all I can see is the whole horrid ball of wax of our R from the time we met until now - the BIG picture - and I can't relax and get my head to zero in on anything that seems most important - other than communication.

Also, yes, it's true - my friends' marriage is a marriage that works for them, and we do have to figure out something that works for us - but I do look at other people's R, and I know that other people generally do not have the same kind of problems we have, nor did they start out on the "wrong" foot, like we did.

The closest analogy I can think of is that my H is like an addict. The two threads which most closely relate to what I feel I am dealing with are Spacecase and Qfwfq -(Q) - whatever - Q's wife has had a long-term EA (sometime PA) that covers almost the whole of their married life. Spacecase's wife has tied herself into emotional bondage with a prisoner. I think I met and married my H while he was still emotionally involved with a married woman 20 years older than him - and she is still in our lives, as a close confidante - so really, it looks as if I condoned him having EAs - because I don't think either of them ever recognized that it wasn't OK for them to have the kind of "friendship" they had, or to maintain it after he married. The natural thing happened, and he drifted away from her - his "in love" feelings for her died and she became a friend - a true friend - but in my view, the experience "corrupted" his sense of values. He now thinks that it is acceptable to have passionate, being-in-love-with-someone-outside-your-marriage relationships, as long as it never gets physical. He has no concept of emotional betrayal because he was party to it early on in his adult life - I think his EA with her was a life-shaping experience in other words. He cannot admit that his EAs with the young women he has had over the past 18 months have been wrong, otherwise he would have to admit that his friendship of 20 years ago was wrong. Now, how do I know all this? Because 18 years ago, I snooped and read some of her letters, and I KNOW that she struggled over whether or not what they felt for each other constituted adultery. I think they decided that it didn't, but she acknowledged at one point that she felt guilty and that she felt his life would have been easier, more normal, if he had never been friends with her. In the next breath she blithely goes on to say that God has turned their sins into blessings, though, so it looks to me like she is still somewhere out in left field, though. I know that after we were married, she did try to put their R in context and said that her love for him had been "misplaced". I have sometimes spoken to her about the problems we are having now, and she said she doesn't call because "she doesn't want to get him on the phone", and she has also said that his EAs are wrong and that she has told him that - she says he doesn't call her much anymore, possibly because he doesn't want to hear what she has to say. ( I need to get this off my chest). It's hard for me to listen to this, when I want to say that it is partly because of her that he now holds these values. I have now decided not to talk to her at all any more - I called her a couple of weeks ago and it was the first time I had talked to her in months. Anyway, its like, my H has a need for a secret life - I don't know why - maybe because the first time he fell in love, it was with a married woman, and there was a secret thrill in that. I have been thinking about it a lot. Because, thinking back, his initial love affair with me became serious when I realized he had this peculiar "OW" and asked him to keep our "affair" a secret. In other words, he was most thrilled with me when I was the secret lover. Of course, after we got married, the secrecy was gone. I am sure, deep in my heart, that there is something in this - I don't know why - its just a feeling I get about my H.

But getting back to what you said - yes, I have also been thinking of taking the approach - let's leave all the "rules" to one side for now, and talk about us and what we want out of a R. It has to be something that works for both of us, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Now, what also comes to my mind is that I feel shut in a box emotionally. I feel like I am denied the expression of the full range of feelings - in most healthy relationships, a person can express a variety of feelings and feel "safe" with the other - they can be sad, frustrated, anxious, happy, goofy, playful, comical, joyous, sensual, tired, even irritable, and know that the other person accepts these as normal. In our R, I feel that I am only allowed to be "positive" - no "negative" emotions are allowed, at all. I cannot cry from sadness, I cannot be irritable from tiredness, I cannot be quiet from sickness, I cannot be frustrated, anxious, or sorrowing, let alone, depressed, I cannot be afraid - the expression of these emotions has the most serious consequences. My H reacts with fury, or coldness, or contempt. I don't know if this is the famous "stiff upper lip" swinging into action, or whether its something else. I know a lot of English people who are not this way, so I don't think its fair to label him as being "quintessentially English" and rationalizing it that way. I just know that its there. There is no sympathy, empathy, or understanding - there is only resistance, and I am labelled "negative" - or "a depressive", and he turns and walks away, leaves the room, leaves the house, leaves the relationship. I have been puzzling over this, and it came to me, that its like telling me I have to live in a happy-clappy marriage - my H hates the evangelical happy-clappy music in happy-clappy churches (he's a traditionalist) - I realize that happy-clappy is a derogatory term and I am not happy using it myself, so please know that I am not trying to be insulting to other Christians out there who like this kind of music - but if I were to try to explain it to my H, I think that's the only way he might understand what I am trying to say. He and I are both Catholics and he is a traditionalist in both music and liturgy - we are converts, as well, and I felt at home in the Catholic Church because it embraces such a wide spectrum of spirituality, from the charismatic to the contemplative - I feel there is a way for everyone to pray to God within the Catholic Church, not just one way. But in my marriage, it has to be just the one way - happy-clappy - we have to be "positive" all the time - I don't know how else to describe it. Again, I say, I don't want to offend any evangelical Christians by saying that - but maybe it has popped into my head as an analogy, because that's the way my H might understand it.

Oh well, is the night before the marriage counselling nerves as bad as the night before the marriage? Or is it worse?

Help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
LIR

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>