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#1036732 10/30/02 07:34 PM
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Picking up the topic from Honey's thread, ""Motherboard" and others...."

2long started the "trust" topic with his thought provoking paraphrase of Baer.

I'll offer a parallel in the form of the "unconditional", "conditional" love label.

Frequently, posters expound on their "unconditional" love for their spouse. This has always perplexed me, but I usually end up concluding that they're using a cliche', not really thinking about this terminology - or are they?

I propose that marital love is exclusively conditional. It has to be cultivated and acquired - it is not a given. In contrast, love between siblings, parent/child, etc., usually is unconditional - it's there from the onset and can weather incredible contradictions.

Bring in 2long and "trust."

I'll propose that between romantic couples, trust and conditional love are congruent - without trust, the conditional love cannot be acquired. Erode one or the other, and they both are affected. So yes, I also believe trust is a gift - given when another has deposited enough love units to create safety and vulnerability.

Just rambles from this MB winner..........

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WAT:

I almost agree! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Except that I would say that M is conditional, but love is not (or should not be). Greg Baer calls it "Real Love" versus "Immitation Love" (conditional love). It's an interesting read. I highly recommend it.

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Hi there 2Long,

Interesting paraphrase. I am hoping you can expound on it a bit more since not all of us have the book at our disposal. You say Baer says:

"Trust is NOT something that has 2 be earned, it is a gift. Insisting that trust must be earned may protect YOU from your S's "bad behavior" (in our cases, ongoing As), but PROTECTION only serves 2 make you ALONE AND UNLOVED.

And....would that always be a bad thing? Aren't we better off sometimes being alone if the one we love continues in behavior that will ultimately destroy us if we continue to engage in a relationship with them? I wonder in what context your quote is coming from and if you might explain a bit more.

I could agree if it's referring to the context of a relationship that is functional and where each spouse is striving to do their best. Where "protection" could be defined as "putting up an emotional wall" to make sure we don't ever get hurt.Keeping that wall up at all costs is where I can see "protection" leaving us alone and unloved and that indeed could be a bad thing if one never allows themself to feel safe enough to let another's love in. That could lead to a very lonely life.

However, in situations where a spouse is self centered, addicted and consistently only talking the talk and not walking the walk, might it not be the wiser thing to do to NOT trust in that circumstance.Wouldn't it be the healthier thing to protect yourself from the havoc and destruction they bring to those closest to them and to remove yourself from the situation until they are healthy enough to reliably contribute to a functional relationship. In a case like that isn't giving continued, unconditional trust an unhealthy thing? I think so. What does Baer say?

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Hey Dave,

Re: your quote ~ </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually end up concluding that they're using a cliche', not really thinking about this terminology.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not only do I *say* I believe in UNconditional love, I *live* it.

I'm going to talk about my ex. He cheated in the 80's, three times (everything but the big boink). I also heard from a neighbor woman who told me to tell my husband to leave her alone. That makes four of 'something'...

I did NOT trust him. But I loved him.

You know (as does anyone else who's read anything of mine) that there was more, and ultimately, I too stepped outside of marriage once, and it nearly killed me. The marriage was a mess.

I tried, he tried, but we just couldn't make it.

In the end Dave, I loved him, and he loved me. The day I filed divorce I loved him. The day he handed the papers back to me (he held them for five months because he didn't want to sign them) and he cried as he handed them to me. We loved each other, didn't trust each other at all, but loved each other. We just couldn't sustain a marriage with love alone.

You hear all the time about abused wives loving the men who abuse them. It's not that unheard of... love in spite of circumstances.

Trust is a TOTALLY different issue.

Now, let me speak to my current marriage. I love my husband, *and* I trust him. He loves and trusts me. We have both done things in our past that we aren't proud of... but not to each other. We are as much of a 'clean slate' as possible for two people over 40.

Just some words from another MB winner... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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Well, I'm gonna wade in here...

I look at the "trust" issue a little different. Wouldn't we all concede that "trust" and "faith" are comparable in meaning?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJV, Holy Bible)

I believe, too, that trust is a gift. Here, however, is where I differ with most:

The gift of trust is what my WW gave ME. HER gift of "trust" is what she destoyed by having the A. My gift of trust to her still remains.

When we tell someone that they can "trust" us, it is US giving the gift. Not the other way around as is typically used. Then, it is up to THEM to accept OUR "gift of trust". By trusting us, they have accepted OUR gift.

In other words, my WW decided to "take back" the gift of trust that she gave to me.

It's up to HER to decide to return it.

By the same token, using the words trust and faith sort of synonomously, once my WW had the A, the "evidence of things unseen", now became SEEN. I no longer had the need for faith. I no longer could even HAVE faith.

Remember, faith is the evidence of things which are not seen. I now see. Faith and trust cannot survive in that environment. Only in the "unseen" environment can they thrive.

So, my WW tore down the trust, the gift of trust that she offered me, and that I accepted on September 23, 1988. She cannot possibly "earn" it.

She has to decide to "build" me another gift. Then, I must choose whether or not to accept it.

My 2cents. And it probably isn't worth that.

Boo

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Ok, here goes;

Trust is a state of vulnerability; you can't have trust without vulnerability.

You award your spouse with a badge of protection. By marrying your spouse you have hopefully learned in the dating process that they can be trusted with your vulnerability. The badge you give them is what they earned during the time that you got to know them when you learned they can be trusted with your vulnerable self.

Their responsibility being your spouse "in a perfect world" is that they will "protect" you in MB terminology from themselves, meaning LBs, infidelity, dishonesty (their worst selves).

During an affair the BS takes back the badge that was awarded because the WS has proven untrustworthy. The WS has lost the right to the badge because they have failed to protect the BS from themselves.

During the recovery process there comes a time when the BS (if recovery goes well)needs to take the risk of being vulnerable to the spouse again; by handing back the badge that had been taken away. Re-establishing trust is a product of the WS proving his/her ability to protect their BS once again - consistently.

It is still up to the BS to take the risk of being vulnerable so that trust can be re-established.

Faith is a choice - trust is earned; and re-earned hopefully if need be.

My WS is also learning to be vulnerable with me again; because for quite awhile after d-day; I was unable to protect him from myself; typical BS LBing with enormous outrage.

SH taught me the wisdom of "protecting" WS from my LBing and take responsibility for my actions; so that recovery was possible. WS ability to trust me came with me consistently proving to him I could protect him from my worst self.

As I reported before SH states that if done correctly your spouse is the most dangerous person on earth to you. Very daunting; but the potential is enormous if you can really really learn to have the kind of relationship that MB gives you the ability to dream.

I've often looked at couples who appear so connected and said - "I want what they have"! If recovery continues on I think I will have what they have. Blessings - CSue

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Perhaps those who are interested can read the excerpts of Greg Baer's book on Amazon. He can explain it better than we can! (I think the complete Chapter 1 is there)

The Truth About Relationships - Greg Baer

I found an excerpt from Baer's book which I'd saved. He used to have it for download from his website, but it's not there anymore. It might clarify some things here:

<strong>Real Love
by Dr. Greg Baer
(From "The Truth About Relationships")

Real Love is caring about the happiness of another person without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. Real Love is unaffected by the mistakes and flaws of the people we love. When they give us nothing in return -- including gratitude -- or even when they're thoughtless and inconsiderate, we're not disappointed, hurt, or angry, because our concern is for their happiness. Real Love is unconditional.

It's Real Love when someone cares about our happiness without any concern whatever for themselves. It's Real Love when people are not disappointed or angry when we make our foolish mistakes, even when we inconvenience them personally. Sadly, very few of us have ever seen love like that.

Real Love is
An Absolute Requirement for Happiness

Prior to the late eighteenth century, sailors on long voyages often suffered from bleeding gums, tooth loss, and wounds that didn't heal. Many of them died. The physicians of the day called the condition scurvy, and they tried to treat it with better food, exercise, hygiene, and medical care. But nothing worked until they added citrus fruits to the sailors' diets. Scurvy then vanished completely, and eventually, we learned that it was all caused by a deficiency of a single molecule - vitamin C. Without it, people starved and died, even though their bellies were full of bread and beef.

Similarly, most of us are emotionally sick and dying from a deficiency we have not yet identified. We try to fill our sense of emptiness with money, power, food, approval, sex, and entertainment, but no matter how much of those things we acquire, we remain empty, alone, afraid, and angry. What we need is Real Love. Without it, we can only be miserable. With it, our happiness is absolutely guaranteed.

When I use the word "happiness," I do not mean the fleeting pleasure we get from money, sex, praise, and worldly success. Nor do I mean the brief feeling of relief we experience during the temporary absence of conflict or disaster. Real happiness is not the feeling we get from being entertained or making people do what we want. Genuine happiness is a profound and lasting sense of peace and fulfillment that deeply satisfies and enlarges the soul. It doesn't go away when circumstances get difficult. It survives and even grows through hardship and struggle. True happiness is our entire reason to live.

With Real Love, nothing else matters; without it, nothing else is enough.

The Connection and Life-Giving Power
of Real Love

The greatest fear of all for a human being is to be unloved and alone. As a physician, I saw that confirmed many times by people who knew they were dying. Those people were consistently more afraid that no one cared about them and that they would die alone than they were of death itself.

But when someone is genuinely concerned about our happiness, we feel a strong connection to them. We feel included in their life, and in that instant, we are no longer alone. Each moment of unconditional acceptance creates a living thread to the person who accepts us. Those threads weave a powerful bond that fills us with a genuine and lasting happiness. Nothing but Real Love can do that. In addition, when one person loves us, we feel a connection to everyone else. We feel included in the family of all mankind, of which that one person is a part.

Imagine living in a world where all the people are truly happy. In this place there is no fear or anger. The people here are so filled with love and happiness that their only concern as they interact with you is your happiness, and you can feel that with absolute certainty. Because they have everything that really matters in life, they don't need you to do anything for them. So there is nothing you can do to disappoint them.

As you communicate with these people, you can see that it doesn't matter to them whether you're smart or pretty or handsome. You don't have to do anything to impress them or get them to like you. And they truly don't care if you make mistakes or say something stupid. It finally and powerfully occurs to you that it's impossible to be embarrassed or ashamed around these people -- because they love you no matter what you do.

That is the feeling of being unconditionally loved -- and many of us can't imagine it. We've been judged, criticized, and conditionally supported for so long that the idea of being unconditionally accepted is inconceivable. But I have seen what happens when people consistently take the steps that lead to finding Real Love. They find a happiness that utterly transforms their lives. This is not a fantasy. Thousands of people have successfully used this simple process by which we can all learn to find Real Love, genuine happiness, and fulfilling relationships.

The Effect of Not Feeling Loved

Without Real Love, we feel empty, alone, and afraid. We can't tolerate those feelings, and we'll do anything to get rid of them. From the time we were small children, we all learned behaviors that made us feel good temporarily and gave us a sense of relief from our emptiness and fear: winning the approval of other people, getting angry, criticizing people, having sex, making money, controlling people, drinking alcohol, using drugs, and running from difficult relationships, to name just a few. All the unproductive things we do with each other in relationships -- lying, criticizing, anger, withdrawing, and so on -- are just reactions to the pain of not feeling loved. That doesn't excuse the foolish and hurtful things we do, but it does explain them. Not feeling unconditionally loved has terrible consequences.

Drowning

Imagine yourself again in the middle of the ocean. But this time, there's no island, no one to help you, no lifeboat -- and you're drowning. You're exhausted and terrified. Suddenly, a man grabs you from behind and pulls you under the water. Completely overwhelmed by fear and anger, you struggle wildly to get free, but your efforts are unsuccessful, and you remain underwater.

Just as you're about to pass out and drown, I arrive in a boat and pull you from the water. After catching your breath, you turn to see that the man who pulled you under the water is also drowning, and it's obvious now that he only grabbed you in an attempt to keep his own head above water. He wasn't trying to harm you at all. Knowing that, your anger vanishes immediately, and you quickly help him into the boat.

Let's examine what we can learn from this imagined experience -- about ourselves and about other people.

Why do other people hurt us?

Only moments before I arrived, you were absolutely certain that the man in the water was a killer. Sitting in the safety of the boat, however, you determined with a single glance that he wasn't trying to hurt you at all. He was only trying to save himself.

And so it is in relationships. People really don't do things with the goal of hurting us. When people hurt us, they're simply drowning and trying to save themselves. People who don't feel unconditionally loved are desperate and will do anything to eliminate the pain of their emptiness. Unfortunately, as they struggle to get the things that give them temporary relief -- approval, money, sex, power, etc. -- their behavior often has a negative effect on the people around them, including us. But that is not their first intent.

Other people hurt us only because they are reacting badly to the pain of feeling unloved and alone. When we truly understand that, our feelings toward people, and our relationships with them, change dramatically.

Why do we hurt other people?

When the drowning man first grabbed you from behind, you were understandably angry at him, believing that he was trying to kill you. In fact, you fought to free yourself, and if you had been strong enough, you could have drowned him.

And again, it's the same in relationships. Without Real Love, we feel like we're drowning all the time. In that condition, almost everything seems threatening to us, even the most innocent behaviors. When people get angry or criticize us, we don't see them as drowning and protecting themselves. We become afraid and defend ourselves, using behaviors that often result in injury to others.

It is not our primary goal to hurt the people around us. But when we don't feel unconditionally loved -- when we're drowning -- we're desperate. We don't think clearly as we do things to feel better and protect ourselves. And those things often hurt other people.

Why do we get angry?

One of the ways we hurt people is to get angry at them and blame them for our anger. But other people never "make" us angry. If we all understood and remembered that one principle, very few relationships would fail. Most relationships fall apart because we angrily blame our partners for something they did or did not do. We need to remember that our anger is really a reaction to a lifetime of trying to survive without unconditional love. That's enough to make anyone angry. We get angry because then we feel less helpless and afraid. Anger protects us and briefly makes us feel better.

Lisa wasn't angry because of anything Christopher did in the few months they were together. She was unhappy and discouraged because of a lifetime not feeling loved. You weren't murderously angry at the man in the water because of a single tug on your shoulder. You were angry because you'd been spit out in the middle of the ocean with no chance for survival, and because you were exhausted and frightened and about to die. Anger makes much more sense when we see the real cause for it.

In relationships, we only get angry because we don't feel loved. In that painful condition, we lash out at anything that threatens us -- which is almost everything. Anger is terribly destructive to relationships, but when we're drowning, we don't react reasonably to the situation at hand; we react to many years of emptiness and pain, and we protect ourselves from every imaginable threat to our safety.

As we find Real Love, it's like being pulled out of the water into a boat. Our fear and anger simply vanish. Loving relationships then become natural and easy.

And all the other stupid things we do

We do so many stupid things in response to the pain of not feeling loved. We use money, power, sex, praise, approval, drugs, and alcohol. We cheat on our spouses. We criticize people and blame them for our feelings. We argue with those we love and insist on being right. We withdraw from those who might hurt us, even though that separates us from the very people we want to be close to. We even pick up guns and shoot each other. We do all those things to minimize the pain of feeling unloved, and we'll discuss them more in the next two chapters.

When you understood that the man in the water was not trying to hurt you and was only trying to save himself, your anger disappeared, and you were glad to help him into the boat. You had no more desire to struggle against him or hurt him. When we feel unconditionally loved, we also lose the need to protect ourselves and do the things which hurt our partners. That makes a huge difference in relationships.

My own experience with drowning

I know something about drowning. Having insufficient unconditional love in my life, I spent a lifetime acquiring money, power, and the approval of others. No matter how much I earned, those things completely failed to make me happy. Despite having what the world called a successful life, I was desperate for relief from the pain of feeling empty and alone, and I turned to some very foolish solutions for my discomfort. I became a drug addict for years and caused great harm to my wife and children. I became depressed and suicidal. People who are drowning don't think clearly. They hurt themselves and everyone around them.

We Have Not Been Loved Unconditionally

Most of us have received little, if any, Real Love. We prove that every day with our unhappiness -- our fear, anger, blaming, withdrawal, manipulation, controlling, etc. People who feel unconditionally loved don't feel and do those things.

As a child, I was thrilled when my mother smiled at me, spoke softly, and held me. I knew from those behaviors that she loved me. I also noticed that she did those pleasant things more often when I was "good" -- when I was quiet, grateful, and cooperative. In other words, I saw that she loved me more when I did what she enjoyed, something almost all parents understandably do.

When I was "bad" -- noisy, disobedient, and otherwise inconvenient -- she did not speak softly or smile at me. On those occasions, she frowned, sighed with disappointment, and often spoke with a harsh tone. Although it was unintentional, she clearly told me with those behaviors that she loved me less, and that was the worst pain in the world for me.

Nearly all of us were loved that way. When we made the football team, got good grades, and washed the dishes without being asked, our parents naturally looked happy and said things like, "Way to go!" or "I'm so proud of you." But when we failed a class at school, or tracked dog poop across the carpet, or wrecked the car, or fought with our siblings, did our parents smile at us then? Did they pat us on the shoulder and speak kindly as they corrected us? No, with rare exceptions, they did not. Without thinking, they frowned, rolled their eyes, and sighed with exasperation. They used a tone of voice that was not the one we heard when we did what they wanted and made them look good. Some of us were even yelled at or physically abused when we were "bad."

Other people in our childhood gave us the same conditional approval. School teachers smiled and encouraged us when we were bright and cooperative, but they behaved quite differently when we were slow and difficult. Even our own friends liked us more when we did what they liked. In fact, that's what made them our friends. And that pattern of conditional approval has continued throughout our lives.

Picture in your mind some of the people close to you -- parents, children, spouse, friends -- and predict the expression on their faces . . .

if you completely forgot their birthday.
if they said "hello" to you and you responded by walking away and angrily mumbling something under your breath.
if you were an hour late for a special dinner they had prepared for you.
if you got them nothing for Christmas after they had spent a great deal of time and money buying a gift for you.
if you snapped at them after they'd said something quite innocent to you.

Do you honestly imagine that they'd smile and be delighted with you if you did those things? Of course not. In almost every case, they'd be disappointed and unhappy. In addition, most of them would probably be hurt and angry -- which would be entirely understandable. However, such reactions clearly demonstrate the conditional nature of their love.

Real Love is, "I care how you feel." Conditional love is, "I like how you make me feel." Conditional love is what people have given to us when we did what they wanted, and it's the only kind of love that most of us have ever known. People have liked us more when we made them feel good, or at least when we did nothing to inconvenience them. It was natural and unintentional that our parents and others did that, and they did it from the time we were small babies.

Although it is given unintentionally, conditional acceptance has an unspeakably disastrous effect because it fails to form the bonds of human connection created by Real Love. No matter how much conditional love we receive, we still feel empty, alone, and miserable. Tragically, most of us have filled our lives with that empty "love," and that is the real reason we're now unhappy in our relationships -- not because of anything our present partners have done or have not done. This principle is easily important enough to repeat: if you're unhappy, don't look at your partner for the cause. You're unhappy because you don't feel unconditionally loved, and that's been going on for a long time, usually from early childhood.

Blaming Our Parents
vs.
Understanding Our Past

In our emotional development as children, there was nothing more important than a supply of Real Love. Without it, we were guaranteed to become empty, frightened, and unhappy adults. While it's useful to understand that our parents were responsible for loving us as children, and are therefore responsible for a great deal of how we function now, it's very unproductive to blame them if we're unhappy now. Understanding is a simple assessment of how things are, while blaming is an angry attitude that can only be harmful to us and to others.

Although our parents had an enormous impact on our lives, we are solely responsible for the choices we make now. Continued resentment and anger will not help us make wise decisions in the present. In addition, blaming our parents is especially inappropriate when we understand that they gave us the best they had. I've never met a parent who got up in the morning and thought, "Today I could unconditionally love and teach my children and fill their lives with joy. But no, I think I'll be selfish, critical, and demanding instead." Our parents loved us as well as they could. If they failed to give us the Real Love we needed, it was only because they didn't have it to give. If they weren't unconditionally loved, they couldn't possibly have given us the Real Love we required.

Cheryl was very unhappy, and she blamed it all on her husband. When a wise friend explained to her the real cause of her condition -- that she was not unconditionally loved as a child -- she said, "But my parents did love me!"

Friend: "How often did your father hold you and tell you he loved you? How many times each day was he obviously delighted when you entered the room? How often did your mother sit with you and ask what was happening in your life -- just to listen, not to give advice?"

Cheryl was speechless. Although she was raised by parents as good as any she knew, she couldn't think of a single time when any of those things had happened.

Friend: "What happened when you made mistakes and disappointed your parents? Did you feel just as loved then as when you were 'good?'"

As Cheryl described the details of her childhood, it was obvious that her father mostly avoided her. Her mother was kind when Cheryl was obedient, but she was critical and harsh when Cheryl "misbehaved." Cheryl realized that she had never been corrected and loved at the same time. Her wise friend made it clear that there was no blaming in this, just an attempt to understand the real cause of the fear and anger in her life. She could then begin to take the steps necessary to find Real Love (Chapter 7) instead of blaming her husband, which was ruining her marriage and making her very unhappy.</strong>

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

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Didn't know if anyone noticed, or cared (lol), this book is the reason I haven't been starting threads for a while. My old name was TORO, I changed it due to my Wife and OM reading my posts. I almost wish i hadn't changed it, b/c it wouldn't bother me AT ALL if the read my replies to some posts. This book may not save my marriage and actually that's not why I'm reading it. But, it has saved me from myself. My attitude has changed and the people around me have noticed, big time. That isn't the reason i'm making the change, I making it b/c I am beginning to feel unconditional love from those around me. Even if my Wife never sees me clearly, I think this is the best approach for me. Those around me are beginning to feel my unconditional love for them. For me, that's what it is all about. Giving and not expecting anything in return. Once you expect something you'll be empty all your life and eventually someone will dissapoint you.
I have never recommended anything else in my life. I definately would recommed this book. I will not say it is a substitute for MB, Not at all. I think it is a supplement to MB. I think 2long has said it best when he said has has changed his attitude and done a modified plan A. It's because of this book. I know he is making progress with his Wife. I wish him all the best and thanks for sterring me in a direction I feel so much better about taking.

HW formerly TORO

Spacecase: Can two people have the same signature line? I want to change mine now, lol.

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: happinesswithin ]</small>

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Thanks SC for posting those quotes from Baer.

It really is this simple:

*If you give trust, love, and all that without expecting anything in return, you CAN'T be disappointed.

*Trust should be a gift. Even in cases of infidelity, I believe we can start by trusting that our WSs will at the very least act in their own best interests. And if we're loving them without expecting them 2 do anything, our changed atti2des will ATTRACT them, because we'll be giving them what they've always wanted but didn't know how 2 get.

*Faith is really simple, and it IS something that even an atheistic scientist, like ol' 2long here, can have. Faith is simply believing that something is possible, and acting on that belief. I believe that my W will respond 2 being loved unconditionally, and I'm acting on that belief. I also believe that her OM can't love her unconditionally, because doing so would require complete honesty - he'd have 2 be honest with HER and the WORLD about who he is, and so will she. And since As are based on lies, the conditionality of the love they've shared will become obvious with time. At least it will 2 my W, because I'm going 2 keep this up for the rest of my life, and so if we're 2gether, it's likely 2 rub off!

ol' 2long will take Ulove any day over the inferior and ephemeral substitute, conditional love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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Ex-TORO, feel free to use Baer's line for your sig! It's not mine! LOL!!!

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SC:

When I was in first grade, we were all asked what we wanted 2 be when we grow up. I thought that 2 people couldn't want 2 be the same thing when they grow up, so when a friend of mine picked "policeman", I thought I had 2 choose "fireman."

So, now that I'm grown up, I'm neither! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But I know what you're thinking, and maybe you're right! ol' 2long will NEVER grow up! (never grow up, never grow up, not me!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

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I'm going to suggest that none of us is ever going to find the idealogic "real" love Baer is describing in any relationship with another human being. Human beings are flawed, none of us is perfect, we are always going to be a disappointment to one another. Sure we can let the little things go and even some of the big things that happen in isolation in order to lovingly accept the humaness in those we are closest to. That's part of mature, realistic love. We can accept that our loved ones will never be perfect and we leave ourselves vulnerable in order to have loving, HEALTHY relationships where we can feel connected and loved in return. However, if we repeatedly tolerate malicious, neglectful, abusive, hurtful, damaging behavior in the quest or name of "real" love we will destroy our spirits and likely the spirits of those who are vulnerable and dependant on us ( namely our young children). It is my opinion, that in order to stay psychologically and emotionally healthy we must protect ourselves against the bad behavior of others, even if that means those closest to us.

However, there is a way to have that relationship where we are loved unconditionally, where we will never be disappointed and the only way we can have that ideal relationship is to develop a personal relationship with our Father in heaven, Who's love will never fail us no matter how many mistakes we make. He's always there, He'll never forsake us, He's true and faithful and He cares for us more than any human being can. That hole and emptiness that Baer sees people trying to fill with success and wealth and praise and any "thing" else you can think of ( including human relationships) will always leave us feeling as if something is missing if we try to fill it with something other than the development of a spiritual relationship. We are spiritual beings and God created us that way so that when we feel that lack, that emptiness, we might be aware enough to seek a loving, close, personal relationship with Him where we can find that unconditional, "real" love all human beings crave so desperately. In Him we will find a love like no other. Blessings and all the best to everyone!

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Just my 2cents:

I believe I can give uncond. love and trust without hurting me, in fact I think it helps me.

It has been my past lb's and etc. that have led my ws to be as angry, childish and etc. as he is right now.

The nicer I am, and more loving and trusting I am the better the relationship gets.

I just have to do all that and expect nothing in return right now.. aka- pLAN A.

I can't type much now, at work- and maybe that too adds for some of the confusion about m y other posts... as from work I cant respond a whole lot---

Thanks for the topic, I am very interested in the book and these concepts.

Honey

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WAT,

Your thread certainly has me intrigued. You see before d-day I believed in unconditional marital love.

My truth now is that it is not possible to have unconditional marital love. I have found in fact it is quite conditional. I think I can have unconditional love for my children only.

Having followed 2long & Space for these past months, I am surprised to hear their position. So you guys help me out here...I don't get it. Especially in your position. What I wonder then is this; is unconditional marital love more about the journey, not the destination. Better said; do you recognize that it is unobtainable; yet the efforts to be there make you a better mate?

I have an open mind on the concept and am hoping you reply. Also it would be interesting to hear JL's take on this subject. 2long, can you invite him over?

Thanks, CSue

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I just HAD to jump back in here!

While in no way do I dispute or minimize the value of the Harley concept of "Love is Conditional", I will say this about it: it has a definoite flaw, and that flaw is that no matter how hard we try, and how much POJA we do, INEVITABLY in a relationship one of the partners will feel like he/she is giving/receiving more than the other. This is simply reality. And secondly, even if we are receiving equally, if part of what we are giving (or most of it) is not something that comes naturally to us, out of our heart, it WILL become VERY hard work to continue to give it indefinitely. Therefore, it is my belief that we MUST make an effort to go beyond that, and into the realm of "Unconditional Love".

Contrary to what some have said on this thread, Unconditional Love DOES NOT mean that one condones improper or hurtful behavior from one's partner. What it does mean is that we do not retaliate either verbally or otherwise, for that behavior. It means we choose to see that behavior in a different light, not that we accept or condone it. What this means is that we see it as a mistake, an error our partner has made, and we lovingly (as opposed to confrontationally) discuss it. We also see it as an involuntary hurt we have been caused, as opposed to a purposeful hurt.
Since Unconditional Love and Forgiveness have so much in common, (and I mean REAL forgiveness, not conditional forgiveness). In fact, they are so closely bound that it is hard to say whether true forgiveness begets unconditional love, or unconditional love begets forgiveness..it may be both.
But since they are so closely related, I will post a small description of a definition of Real Forgiveness, and I beleive that when you read it, you will also see what Unconditional Love is about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Based on Philosophical, Traditional (Hebrew, Christian, Islamic, Confucian, and Buddhist traditions, among others), Psychological and Developmental principles. Gleaned from a large survey of readings, professional dialogue, and stories of forgiveness written by volunteers.

<strong>1. What it is:
Moral</strong>
It is a response to an injustice (a moral wrong).
It is a turning to the "good" in the face of this wrongdoing.

<strong>Goodwill</strong>
Merciful restraint from pursuing resentment or revenge.
Generosity or offering good things such as: attention, time, remembrances on holidays.
Moral Love or contributing to the betterment of the other.

<strong>Paradoxical</strong>
It is the foregoing of resentment or revenge when the wrongdoer's actions deserve it and giving the gifts of mercy, generosity and love when the wrongdoer does not deserve them.
As we give the gift of forgiveness we ourselves are healed.

<strong>Beyond duty</strong>
A freely chosen gift (rather than a grim obligation).
The overcoming of wrongdoing with good.

<strong>2. What it is not:

Forgetting/Denial</strong>
Time passing/ignoring the effects of the wrongdoing.

<strong>Condoning</strong>
Nothing that bad happened. It was only this one time. It won't happen again.

<strong>Excusing</strong>
The person did this because.....it wasn't really their responsibility.

<strong>Condemning</strong>
She/he deserves to know they have wronged me.
"Forgiving" with a sense of moral superiority.
Seeking Justice or Compensation
Forgiveness is not a quid pro quo deal--it doesn't demand compensation first.

<strong>3. Important Distinction:

Forgiveness: One person's moral response to another's injustice
Reconciliation: Two parties coming together in mutual respect </strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This comes from the following web site, and is based on research done at the University of Wisconsin. See "The Process Model" also at the same site.

What Is Forgiveness?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>I... it is my belief that we MUST make an effort to go beyond that, and into the realm of "Unconditional Love".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">B-Bu-But... see... to me... there is NO effort in UNconditional love.

You just do.

It just is.

Okay, so I sound like I've smoked some good stuff... I haven't. It's truly what I believe. I have written numerous posts on this subject. I'm a broken record, and boring by now.

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Space thanks!

Let me chew this over! I was hoping you would respond!! CSue

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WHOA, Back up a minute Spacecase! I get the forgiveness stuff and can agree with most of it except the part about choosing to see hurts an an "involuntary" action instead of a "purposeful" action. Affairs, among many other hurts, are very purposeful, they don't "just happen" as many WS start out trying to say when the A is exposed. So I definitely don't get that part of what Baer is saying. It either IS or ISN'T purposeful regardless of how much we try to see it another way. What would be the point in trying to fool ourselves by seeing it for something it isn't? I think we can still forgive purposeful hurts if the transgressor is repentent. So seeing the hurt for something it isn't, involuntary vs. purposeful isn't the issue when it comes to honest to goodness forgiveness. The rest of the forgiveness concepts I can agree with.

Back to 2Longs original quote from Baer regarding trust and protection...... this is what I'm wondering if you can expound upon.....

"Trust is NOT something that has 2 be earned, it is a gift. Insisting that trust must be earned may protect YOU from your S's "bad behavior" (in our cases, ongoing As), but PROTECTION only serves 2 make you ALONE AND UNLOVED"

You see I wasn't implying anything about unconditional love in my post, it's related to the "trust" quote. I fully understand that unconditional love has nothing to do with condoning or accepting bad behavior. I'm wondering about the original quote above that 2 Long excerpted from the book. Please go back and read my 1st response to the thread and if you would, since it appears that you have the book or good knowledge of it, expound regarding the context of the "trust" quote. Thanks very much! Your efforts are appreciated!

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Gotta jump into this one WAT!

I usually just lurk but I had to respond to this, especially since I just finished a 10 page paper for my Psych-Nurisng rotation on "TRUST and ...."

Trust according to two professional sources is:
"a belief in the integrity of other people."
AND
"an expectancy held by an individual or group that the word, promise verbal or written statement of another individual or group can be relied upon."

I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't felt that, in respect to my STBX, in over 2 1/2 years now.(gosh, how time flies when you're not having fun)

As for "unconditional" love...according to Webster, unconditional means "not subject to conditons or limitations"; To me this means that those vows to love, honor and cherish were not dependent on whether or not I (or WH) felt I(or he) was receiving sufficient attention or love. In other words, I love that person even if I don't feel that my love is being reciprocated at that time. After 26 1/2 years of marriage, foolishly, I thought "unconditional love" was a given. If I've learned anything over the last 2 1/2 years, is never ASSUME anything!

I firmly believed in "unconditional love", especially in a marriage. Do I still believe in it? Yes... but the question is "Will I ever trust enough to possess it again?"

I hope things are going well for you. Keep in touch, you've got my e-mail address.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>WHOA, Back up a minute Spacecase! I get the forgiveness stuff and can agree with most of it except the part about choosing to see hurts an an "involuntary" action instead of a "purposeful" action. Affairs, among many other hurts, are very purposeful, they don't "just happen" as many WS start out trying to say when the A is exposed. So I definitely don't get that part of what Baer is saying. It either IS or ISN'T purposeful regardless of how much we try to see it another way. What would be the point in trying to fool ourselves by seeing it for something it isn't? I think we can still forgive purposeful hurts if the transgressor is repentent. So seeing the hurt for something it isn't, involuntary vs. purposeful isn't the issue when it comes to honest to goodness forgiveness. The rest of the forgiveness concepts I can agree with.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no...you're mis-interpreting. The affair IS a conscious decision by the wayward spouse, what it IS NOT is an action taken to PURPOSELY HURT the betrayed.

The principle is that once we accept that the wayward DID NOT HAVE THE AFFAIR TO HURT US, it becomes easier to forgive, comprehend, and love unconditionally. While we maintain our "victim-hood", we cannot do this.

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