I am the BW, H is the WS...

DH is doing anything and everything to try to make up for it. It's just so sad that he's doing it now, when I always needed it. And now I'm afraid, what if this is just "honeymoon" time? What if he gets me to trust him again, then backs off and does it again? Is he working so hard because now I *am* a challenge? because now he fears he could lose me? Is it real or is it memorex?

This is my question to the people on this board who were the betrayers... do you really love your spouse and want to work it out? And if you do,, then how/why would you have cheated in the first place?? And how are we , the bs, supposed to know what to believe??

This is the scariest thing I've ever been through, wanting so much to trust him, and yet terrified to trust him. Does that make any sense at all?? Sometimes, I think I may have lost my mind. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

B.B. You might not want to hear from me because I was the Other Woman. But none the less, I will give you my take. My now ex-lover (i.e. the "WS") was actively trying to win over his wife, but from things he said to me I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that things may get better for a while (or may not), but sooner or later, whether a year or a decade from now, he will cheat on her again...I can guarantee it.

I have no doubt right now his wife is benefitting from his honeymoon behavior, the behavior he used to woo me in the first place. But later...

I know this is not what you want to hear, and maybe not where you want to hear it from, but it is my point of view.

BB -- There's a divergence of opinion on the board when it comes to the trust issue. Some say the Harley model of never trusting and doing all you can to earn the BS's trust is essential. Others say that's not only unreasonable, but just plain vindictive.

You wrote:
"This is my question to the people on this board who were the betrayers... do you really love your spouse and want to work it out? And if you do,, then how/why would you have cheated in the first place?? And how are we , the bs, supposed to know what to believe??

This is the scariest thing I've ever been through, wanting so much to trust him, and yet terrified to trust him."

Let's analyze:
"Do you really love your spouse and want to work it out?"
Well, yeah, I do and I believe she does. Now, are there others out there that just don't want to be alone or lose the kids? Maybe. What's important isn't what your WS wants, it's what YOU want. This is YOUR recovery. If your S wants to play, make sure the rules are clear and get busy healing.
At some point, you have to quit worrying about your spouses' motivations or intentions. The fact that you worry about it tells me you are afraid of future hurt and not really sure you want to commit. It's not a negotiating thing. If he wants in, he wants in. What do YOU want? If you want him back, you're fighting to get this guy in your life the way you want.

"Why cheat?"
I love my wife with all my heart. She kicked the crap out of me with her As, but I was cheating before she did. Why? Because I was afraid -- no, SURE -- she would eventually hurt me, so I was preparing to jump ship. She was too good to be true and I did everything I could to ruin that good thing so when the inevitable happened, I could be righteaous in my pain. Also, the fact that another women -- or women -- found me desirable fed my ego. EGO. I was a child with self-esteem issues and lots of fears. It's not about not loving you. It's usually about not loving what's happened to the themselves, to their fairy tale life and other things. To be fair, some do fall out of love and find others and go on to happy, successful lives. But, to me, that sounds like they learned the lessons on how to live happily with a person from their first marriage and are applying them in the second. That's all.

"What to believe" is up TO YOU. You are the most powerful human on the planet when it comes to your relationship. You have the power to believe what you choose to believe. You also have the power to check your beliefs with reality. You are educating yourself, learning to communicate and are willing to do the hard work. As you go, you will see your strength growing, and your belief won't be anchored to your fears, but to your hopes.
Think of all our hopeful icons, songs and stories. "I believe I can fly" "I have a dream" etc. etc. etc. No one ever says "I believe my life sucks." Food for thought.
It's an attitude and faith in self that pushes you forward. Not your faith in the spouse, but that you will become a new you, fresh and shiny and more powerful than the old. And what he thinks/feels/does really doesn't matter.

I said earlier there is a divergence of opinions on the boards. I tend to think this: I'd love to have my trust in my S validated every day by her checking in every second, telling me what's going on, kissing my a** whenever I needed it. But, if she did that, she wouldn't be the woman I married. Then what would I think of her?
It's not about trusting them. It's about trusting your ability to survive whatever crap life throws at you. It's about you trusting you to be strong, even if he walks out the door in a year and never looks back. It's about having the courage and power to tell him what you will and will not settle for. It's about trusting you can establish good rules for your marriage (between the two of you) and YOU will live in those rules, even if he doesn't. Trust is this: there are no doors, no keys, no guard towers, no razor wire to keep you love locked safely in the prison of your marriage where it can't get out to go to someone else. It is an open compound, and there are rules. Break the rules, face the consequences.

I am the WS

I went through 4 years of MC and the MC told us there was nothing she could do. My W then went for IC and was on Celexa and Wellbutrin and she didn;t change.

I was very clearly telling her what my needs were even after the counseling she just told me she couldn;t forgive me for previous things, not an A, just being me. I gave up.

During the A I decided that I wanted to rebuild if there was any chance at all... Now I don;t think I'll get the chance....

MJay..

I'm sorry for what you're going thru. But I'm not sure I'm ready to believe, "once a cheater always a cheater." My H had a ONS/no-sex. He went on a "date".. he says it made him feel 'exciting and fun', he liked feeling like he was 'still sexy and attractive.' They spent about 7 hrs together, holding hands, making out, and bar-hopping. Yes, I'm hurt, angry, betrayed.. but I think my situation is different from yours. I think alot of OW like to believe that the MM doesn't really love his wife, but if that's true.. why do so many try so hard to work it out??

Back to the Betrayers...
Why do you try so hard to work it out? Is it a moment of weakness? Do you really love your spouses? Or are you staying w/them out of convenience, family, obligation?? How are we , the BSs, to know which one our spouse is?? I/m really trying to understand...

Please help.

oops. sorry.. double post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ November 01, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

B.B. I'm not going through anything. Just thought you might want an alternate perspective.

In my case, I neither believed nor didn't that my MM didn't love his wife: he TOLD me point blank that he had never loved her, right from the start, had only married her out of convenience, and stayed out of comfort. Frankly, I don't think he loves anyone. But that's not my problem because I haven't seen him in 10 months, and never will again.

I thought you might want to hear what I heard from my MM, in my case.

Also, I didn't realize that your husband didn't have an actual affair, as opposed to a 7-hour date.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Baby Blue, what you are going through now is part of the package you accepted when you agreed to stay and work it out. It will never be the same again. Yes, you CAN trust him again, but only if he BECOMES trustworthy. Trust is rebuilt through consistent trustworthy actions. THAT is how you trust again.

You are taking the chance that it will all happen again, but that is part of the package you accepted when you agreed to stay. What you are going through right now is all part of the recovery process, but just know that there are no guarantees and noone here can give you one.

**It's not about trusting them. It's about trusting your ability to survive whatever crap life throws at you**

Wow Chorus , that's a mouthful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Kind of puts the ball back in my court, huh?? Thank you for responding.

**You are taking the chance that it will all happen again, but that is part of the package you accepted when you agreed to stay. **

From MelodyLane.. kind of saying the same thing as Chorus.. Am I seeing a trend here? LOL.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is *how* a person can cheat on their spouse, and still love them. I, personally, could never do that. So I do not understand how it can be done. That is what I'm trying to figure out... I asked H about it repeatedly last nite.. he just kept saying it was about him, his ego, his need to feel sexy and exciting to other women... He never meant to hurt me. But I still don't understand that... when you love someone you don't do something to them, that you KNOW will hurt them. He says, that during that time, he took me for granted and swears he will never do that again. What I want to hear from the WS on this board if that can be true. Are there any people here who betrayed their spouses but still love them and want to be them, and if so.. what logic did you use to justify your actions at the time of the betrayal??

Mjay & Baby Blue

What you said about the MM in your case is true for a habitual cheater, as you have told us he was. But it simply is not true that once a cheater always a cheater. This is an individual thing. Only about 20% of all cheaters ever repeat. These people have character flaws that will not go away until the address themselves. No marital improvement can keep such a person home.

But for the remaining 80% of all cheaters, most go on to rebuild their marriage and never cheat again.

(((((((ZORWEB))))))))

Really??? 80% do not cheat again?? Please tell me that is a legitimate statistic!! That is the BEST news I have heard in 8 months!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thus far,, all i've heard, is the negative. They did it once, they'll do it again, ... They always lie to the wife,,, letting them come home implies approval of the betrayal, they'll do it again, etc. on and on and on....

Oh You Just Made My Day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ohhhh {{{{{{{{{{Baby Blue}}}}}}}}}}}

Please don't feel so discouraged. It DOES work. It CAN work. My H and I are 4 1/2 years into recovery after his affair and doing better than ever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know how easy it is to doubt true recovery. I know how leary you are to trust again, especially when you hear those phrases like "once a cheater..." Let it work. Allow it to happen. Love each other and use the new rebuilding tools you have read so much about. And with time (and lots of work!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), you'll be glad you took this chance at recovery. We are glad we took a chance to try again. Hard work! The most difficult thing I've been through in my life. But worth it when it all comes together.

<<<I guess what I'm trying to understand is *how* a person can cheat on their spouse, and still love them. I, personally, could never do that. So I do not understand how it can be done. That is what I'm trying to figure out...>>>

You're dealing with Infidelity Myth #2,564: "if someone cheats, it's because they don't love their spouse or because things are seriously lacking at home."

This is one of those things that "everybody knows," but plenty of folks here can tell you that it's just not true. Lots of people become WSs when they realize how easy it really is to be married at home and single elsewhere, especially at work.

This is called "compartmentalization" -- putting the different parts of your life into tidy little compartments so that one never affects the others -- and just going on as if this is perfectly normal. Former Prez Clinton is a prime example of this.

As long as these people have a trusting spouse who doesn't ask questions, they can and will go on like this for a very long time. There's nothing better than having all the benefits of marriage AND all the fun of being single, and they've learned they can do this with very little trouble as long as they keep both lives strictly separate!

By the way -- this is why a married person who has "personal" or "private" or "secret" friends of the opposite sex is dealing a fatal blow to their marriage. Once things are allowed to go on in secrecy, it is absolutely the road to hell for the trusting spouse.

<<<I asked H about it repeatedly last nite.. he just kept saying it was about him, his ego, his need to feel sexy and exciting to other women... He never meant to hurt me.>>>

Actually, this probably true. While he was doing this stuff, you didn't exist for him at all. You aren't in the box marked "Dating," so, in his mind, nothing he does in the "Dating" box has anything to do with you. Got it?

<<<But I still don't understand that... when you love someone you don't do something to them, that you KNOW will hurt them. He says, that during that time, he took me for granted and swears he will never do that again.>>>

I can guarantee you he told himself:

1) He was way too clever to ever get caught.
2) Since he'd never get caught, he would never have to deal with your reaction, so there was no reason for him to think of what it might be.
3) What BabyBlue doesn't know won't hurt her.

Can he love you and still cheat? Yes. It's called "double-dipping." Like so many people he thought he'd found a way around that pesky no-dating rule in marriage. He loved having you for his wife, but he also loved being a single guy when he felt like it.

Please, keep your eyes open, because Infidelity Myth #3,872 is the one that says "Once the betrayed spouse knows what's going on, the WS will instantly stop." Unfortunately, that one's not true either.

I will be glad to answer this but want you to know that I was an OW for several years.

You should trust you instincts and pay attention to what goes on in YOUR home, and in YOUR marriage without using any theory or statistics. There are bound to be signs if he is not being honest.
If you had a happy marriage before he cheated, how was his behavior different when he was cheating? Does he still do things that make you think you are not getting the truth?

I was in an affair with a married man and his wife was forever suspicious. He continued his affair with me and pretended to be making an effort to reconcile with his wife by doing what she wanted, while he continued to live another life. The more she tried to control what he did, the more he gravitated toward me.
This is not to imply that you should suspect your husband of lying but if you have evidence, don't ignore it. My lovers wife found a cell phone bill and still believed him when he said he was only having friendly conversations. Maybe people want to believe things because it doesn't hurt as much as facing the truth. I can understand how humans use denial as a way of survival if its just too painful to deal with reality. If you really want to know if he's cheating or not being honest with you, pay careful attention. I assure you, the signs will be there if you look closely.
L

<small>[ November 02, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Layla15 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Baby Blue:
<strong>

This is my question to the people on this board who were the betrayers... do you really love your spouse and want to work it out? And if you do,, then how/why would you have cheated in the first place?? And how are we , the bs, supposed to know what to believe??:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As the spouse to have the first emr in this marriage, I guess I am qualified to answer your questions....

Do I really love my spouse? No, I guess at this point, it has faded away. When the emr was discovered 4 years ago, there was room for the possibility of rebuilding the marriage into something strong. However H didn't care about my EN's or even if I had EN's so he made no attempt at making this relationship work. (other than insisting that I do things his way, which just caused more distance and dislike) It's been a long time, MC with 2 counselors was a failure, and I have no good emotions left. (Thankfully, I have also given up most of the bad emotions that I harbored though...that anger was killing me bit by bit. It's far easier to not care.)

Do I want to work it out? Well, I'm still here, I've given up on a miracle happening though. We are both in this only for health reasons, lack of finances and kids, kinda stuck I guess.

Why cheated in the first place? None of my EN's were being met and H didn't listen to my pleas. He didn't take for serious when I told him that this marriage was in serious trouble. He decided instead that things should be just as he wanted them. I wasn't working.... so of course nothing I said had any value either...... sigh.

Both BS and WS on this board will have so many points of view on this. Everyone is in such a different place in their lives. This is just my experience and isn't the most positive spin on this topic. But it is honest and how I feel at this time.

I hope that you have a more positive outlook on things.. don't stop trying/ listening like my spouse did. And if you are spiritual, all the better. It is yet another positive to hang onto that you can build on.

Good luck to you...

I thought I should submit my 0.02 cents worth views on the questions raised.
I am a WS. I had two ENS many years ago. I have had no further A there after. These were disclosed last year and understandably, my BS is undergoing extreme trauma and pain since then. Like you, my BS too seeks answer to her questions:-

1. If I really loved her how could I cheat?
In my opinion, I cheated not because I lacked love for her, but it was purely for my ego and physical satisfaction while being out of station - (none of these can be enough justification). Under the urges, I acted without analyzing the consequences. It is my firm belief that a large numbers of WSs indulge in "A"s based on such ego trip and urges.
2. Can the relationship ever be rebuilt?
I believe yes! I am trying and so too my BS. We are struggling and not sure if we will swim to the shore. But it is definitely worth the effort. I am grateful that my BS is making some efforts.
3. Will a revenge A by my BS be justified and only way to get even?
I am a WS and thus personally feel I have lost all rights to opine on this in negative terms. However, if such an act can bring resolution and relief for the BS, I will welcome comments from all experienced MBers.

Meant to add an answer to your question about loving my spouse. It all depends on what you mean when you say "LOVE".

No, I can't say that I'm IN love with him anymore. It ended a long time ago for me.

I love him as a person, meaning its a platonic love. There is no passion, no romance, no physical desire for sex with him, no desire to rekindle anything.
Like the post from One Time Lucy, I stay married for many reasons; kids, finances, health issues, etc. It's gets tough to leave when there are so many factors that overwhelm any real desire to leave.
And when your lover is in the same boat and can't leave for the same reasons, its easier to stay.

<small>[ November 03, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Layla15 ]</small>