CSue - thanks for congrats!

Honey, you said:

"Any advice?

I will gladly take it from a recovered alcoholic."

Well, I won't be 'recovered' until I meet my higher power <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ! I just take each day and ask for help to not drink...

As far as advice? None coming from here. But I probably understand the selfish actions your H portrays better than most on this board. For me, I had everything to offer my W. She just didn't want to have any of it on my terms. I gave her $$, jewels, flowers, nice homes, and my 2cd loyalty. Yes, I'm sad to say she was of second importance in my life. You see my A was with Gentleman Jack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ! All others paled to his ability to heal me and help me forget.

That is until it became REALLY clear what I was losing and may have already lost. My family, my career, my self respect (the little I had at the time), and soon my life. IMHO, your H is EXTREMELY miserable with himself. He is embarassed, he is ashamed, and he is depressed. But this is what you need to know:

There is NOTHING you can do for him. He must want sobriety for himself before the healing can take place. Usually this requires hitting the bottom for an alcoholic. We each have our own 'bottoms'so to speak.

Some on this board have told you to walk away from him and detach. That may just be the bottom your husband needs to get help. However, like Bramble said,

"I for one think you ought to stay in Plan A, with boundaries. Not for HIS sake, but for yours. I think there are things you still need to work out for yourself that you won't learn if you go to Plan B or D, or whatever"

Wise words. You will know when it is time to say goodbye. Your recent thoughts of boundries and detachment show strength and confidence. I read somewhere on this board that the car dealer who is confident and has a good product gets the sale. Not the emotional one begging for your business. Good analogy to our relationships, don't you think. I know it was true for me......

Take care of you and your kids. They are what is under your control right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

(sorry if that sounded like advice!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )

Gib

thanks Gibby- Yes, I pulled away more today and am about to see ws to get my kids back... he is being a bit nicer and still agreeing to counseling, and claims of course he loves me and does not want a D??? Well we are getting somewhere aren't we. He agrees to counseling, but he could be back to angry and raging tomorrow.

I know people think this is all nuts.... it is hard to understand what alcohol does.. but I know. I still love him and I forgive, but I want to be treated right... he sees that... and when I don't take it, the +rap, i don't get it as much. I know i have to show him I am sorry for my alanon anger... it hasn't always been alanon anger , but just pure anger issues I 've carried from my past and ways of dealing with things with fits and rages.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate your kindness in posting to me. Hey I look good tonight, maybe he will notice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Hugs, H

Sorry Topie and Honey -

I had to get this in.........

my 100th post after one year on the board!!

"Somebody stop that mad man!"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gib

Hi Honey,
You have received excellent input, I have been following your threads and I just wanted to say that perhaps one of your H's unfortunate consequences of his drinking IS losing his family. If you allow him to come home without giving up alcohol, doesn't that enable him to keep drinking without consequences? Are you afraid he will choose alcohol over you? But isn't that already what he has been choosing all this time? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I admire you for giving your 200%. We can only hope that one day your H will appreciate all your giving too. Keep the faith!

Thanks BTDunTHAT and Gibby,

Gotta love that 100th post... I am honored <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Yes, I am afraid that he will not stop drinking, I know I can't demand it, and to do that might end my marriage. I hate saying I am afraid he will choose Alcohol over me, it is more like he can't give up the addiction. I am still praying that one day he will.

I don't think he consciously says Alcohol is over you, or the kids, or anyone. I think he does not want to change his way of life, which is what he sees my demands that he quit as. He says if I don't love him as he is, I can let him go. I do love him as he is drinking and all, if I only get what I need from the relationship. Admittedly and obviously if he stopped or changed his drinking behaviors- I am one of those hopefuls who think perhaps one or two here and there could happen.. but a lot of Alcoholics seem to have that compelillng urge to go from one or two drinks to 12 or more...

Anyway- I am very hopeful.. there is hope.

Hey last night I mentioned to him that maybe he could put some digital pics on transfers for shirts, iron on for me- and this was his reply...

WS- Let's get 4 shirts, take pics of the 4 of us, us 2 and the boys, and we will all have one.

Now does that sound like a man wanting a D? He is definitely confused.

hugs and thanks, HONEY

Here's my take on the t-shirt idea, and why:

As nice as it may sound, by getting the shirts done for everyone would only be another enabling action on your part. Why would you have shirts symbolizing your family unit that doesn't exist? I think it would be far more fitting for you to have one done with just you and the boys, no H, and still give him a shirt. THAT's the reality. Where LITERALLY your H isn't in the picture.

I could be wrong here... but that was my initial thought. And I'm VERY much into analyzing enabling behaviours. You could say I'm becoming obsessed with it, in my effort to stop myself from doing so.

I don't know if this shirt idea is one of those enabling moments or not. I haven't been at this long enough to decipher what should be considered and what should not. So my attitude is, stop all enabling that can be done, and work on filtering out what's not overly necessary.

This is tough work. I'm going through a similar situation with my H in regards to the SA (as you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). So anything I say to you under the guise of advice, is for me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You know, good ol' written reminders, here on our interactive journal called MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

No shirts have been made.. my idea was just the kids, then ws idea was the 4 of us... I never answered him, well- I think I might of sd OK.. but no action has been taken. I just thought it was weird for him to mention that.

We played a card game, a couple of rounds iwth the kids, and ws had tv on while I was there... all in all non lb evening.. I am wary, but so is he. he is still saying yes, counseling - so now I am going to ck into it, at a church or something.

Thanks and hugs, HONEY

Honey,
My memory is getting a little fuzzy--thank goodness! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, my aloofness varied depending on what my goal was at that time.

Plan A & separated , I tried not to call him more than once a day, unless I had a good, concrete reason. That was down from 3-5+ every day...(y'know, the morning call, the almost lunch call, the past lunch call, the end of work day or evening call, the goodnight call...YIKES and sometimes more than 1 evening/goodnight call).

I stopped dropping by his office, again unless he needed something or I had a very good reason.

I didn't ask him out, but said yes when he asked, even if it was the same day, unless I did have plans.

I ended the phone call as soon as I heard his interest slipping.

Post Plan A, moving toward divorce, 22 months after his PA had begun, 17 months after our 1st separation

Not sure how this fits into the rules, but these were my boundaries and I was more aloof:

He was requested to call before coming over.

I asked him not to be in the house if the kids or I weren't there. That he wouldn't use his key to get in. (I briefly took away his key, but my kids always forgot theirs when they went with him).

I didn't want him to call after our goodnight call because of loneliness--it had been his choice to move out, since I wanted to be his wife and he didn't want me in that role, I didn't want to be merely his best friend, counselor, comforter, or lover. (My saying this did hurt his feelings, but at that point being all those things AND being separated hadn't really helped either of us in the long run. Pleasant in the moment, though...as you know.)

I told him I would co-parent with him, and discuss anything about the kids.

At that point he did realize I was serious in that I didn't want a half-way relationship anymore. If he was going to be on the fence...he could have the dang fence but not me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

I don't know if you are at that point. I feel certain you'll know when you get there.

My H's issues were different though, more than anything he needed anti-depressants, the psychiatrist prescribed them 1 1/2 years before he took them. He couldn't get out of his depression, not with me, not with the OW for long, not by himself, not partying with his friends.

And, somewhat like your H's drinking, until my H's depression was under management, he couldn't be the husband that at times he wished he could be. And I couldn't make him take the meds. He had to make the choice. And he finally did, along with many other good choices, ending personal contact with the OW, going to counseling on his own, going to men's Bible study, having a couple of those guys as his people he was accountable to along with to me.

THEN when he showed me consistant, accountable behaviors over a couple months, I could begin thinking about letting him close & trying again.

Thanks Lor,

I appreciate your honesty and boundaries you shared. I am getting there... boy have I improved, I rarely call more than once a day now too... I used to do the 5 calls a day thing too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - and that was about the number, now that was down from my psychotic needy stage where I would call WAY more at times when He UPSET me... or I chose to ride my emotions like crazy...

I can't say how much I love the rules book. I bought the rules for marriage too this weekend. I am not sure aobut the one chapter that says give up on your M if your spouse cheats, once a chter, always a cheater.

I am so much stronger lately, and very happy- I am feeling more like the old me who would not of taken any of this!!! But I still have the part of me who is very sorry for all I did wrong, and my ws saying what all I did wrong... and why he is aprt from me... is that...

So , I am out to prove that I am not that horrible wife he imagines... of course that wife he imagines has all my bad traits, and exaggerated at that, and none of my good traits.... HELLO_ FOG. I do think his fog is really fading.. but seeing him and his drinking ... when he is, gets me down.

TOday more thoughts crept into my head... What will he be if he comes home? Will that be acceptable, etc??? Is he worth it? I love him, but don't want him to ruin my life... etc.

It is so hard. I am so afraid that if I close the door... he will give up. He is fragile emotionally, even thought he would never admit it,.... IMHO- that is why he is acting this way... not because he is a jerk... and that is why he is an alcoholic.

I thank you so much for telling me what you changed... as you remember.

Thanks for sharing, and than k good ness your marriage is better now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs and thanks, HONEY

Yes, I agree, there is always hope! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Something just hit me though... If and when he quits drinking, wouldn't you want him to prove himself worthy of you by remaining sober for about a year or two with no drinking before you even allowed him back into the family home??? Seems like that might be worth exploring and not unreasonable considering marriage is for life and you have the children's well-being to consider...

BtDt said:

"Something just hit me though... If and when he quits drinking, wouldn't you want him to prove himself worthy of you by remaining sober for about a year or two with no drinking before you even allowed him back into the family home??? Seems like that might be worth exploring and not unreasonable considering marriage is for life and you have the children's well-being to consider..."

Honey, I can't predict how your H would handle this approach. I know in my case, if my W would have kept me out of the family home after I had quit drinking (even for a couple of days), it probably would have had the opposite affect. I would have left her for good, told myself that I had been right all along (my M is over), and gone out and gotten drunk.

BtDt, I agree with you that in a perfect world this approach would be a great. But in my case, I could not have stayed sober the last 13 months without my family.....

Honey, let me make sure you understand something...A drunk can not be forced to sober up. It must be his/her decision to do it for themselves. Outside influnences can help them get there, but alcoholics truly start recovery when the decision is made from within.

Good luck Honey and stay strong!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gib

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Something just hit me though... If and when he quits drinking, wouldn't you want him to prove himself worthy of you by remaining sober for about a year or two with no drinking before you even allowed him back into the family home??? Seems like that might be worth exploring and not unreasonable considering marriage is for life and you have the children's well-being to consider..."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, I agree with Gibby in this regard. In the initial recovery that my WH did in rehab, one of the exercises he had to complete asked what major life events or what type of loss(es) would cause him to relapse and drink again. His responses were death of father, loss of wife and son. IF AND WHEN your WH acknowledges his addiction and begins working on recovery in a demonstrably way you will have to gauge what approach is best given the circumstances at the time.

I also agree with Gibby that, until Jim acknowledges within himself that he has a problem and wants to do something about it, no one ~ no matter what they say or do ~ can force him to this realization.

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-1 year old
Status: One Day At A Time

Thanks for the replies- I don't not think it would work to put that kind of restriction on my h at all. Especially b/c of his current mind set... that I caused all our marriage issues.. or most of them... He is def. in the blame stage.

So- I can't do that... and don't want to. He was way better at home - than he is now... kind of fell off the wagon without the family to tell yout the truth... he used to drink way less when at home and on track with us.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas... I don't want to be apart that long anyway..

I apprec. the support... wish he would just sober up, but I know it is his choice and I can't require that be a part of our relationship right now.. it is total lb behavior to tell him that.

I see what you mean GIbby, my h would just say.. well you can't take me as I am... bye.

hugs, HONEY