A while ago, someone posted a comment they got from Jennifer, along the lines that one of the "unfortunate" side-effects of Plan B is that the BS starts to realize maybe they are better off without the WS...

I believe Dobson talks about this "phenomenon" in LMBT... describes it as something almost more dangerous than the A itself - that once the BS has learned to "let go" and the bleak winter begins to thaw, they start to make these realizations. He makes a special point to exhort the BS to forgive in the face of this.

I guess I'm realizing that I'm getting to the point where I don't really care about WS... not just that "in love", but love itself is being eroded with time. I understand how Plan B is intended to preserve that as long as possible - but it also admits that the end result, if divorce, can be done in an environment where no love is left. And I understand the true value in knowing I did everything I could to save this M. I've been grappling with whether I've done enough... I'm starting to believe I have.

So what I'm contemplating right now is something of a "Plan D letter" for WW... To be delivered if nothing changes by the end of the year... It would basically ask her to please file for divorce as the "default position" - that I still don't see it as what I wanted for us, but I need a sense of closure on things, too. It's also give me a last chance to ask some questions about what she really wants - as opposed to forcing my will down her throat (which, although justified, just isn't me). (And that if she continues to not do anything, I'll have to take some initiative myself.) Talking about being open and honest!

I guess one of the advantages I see in doing it this way is that I can at least compel her to face the reality of the situation: that I'm pretty much done and ready to "go". It also gives her one final opportunity to admit what she wants, as opposed to someone showing up on her doorstep one day to serve her. That would be a LB'er, and I want to give her as little "justification" as I can, even if we end up divorced with no feelings remaining... is that "wrong" or "vindictive"? Or just the "high road"?

So for anyone, especially FWS's, how might you react to something like this? For example, I seem to recall H4F saying that she dragged her heels on Dv until her H pushed her along... Perspectives? Of course, the threat of Dv has compelled many a WS to change, but I don't want to do this with any expectations... I want to do it because I'm truly ready to move on... which says a lot indeed about where I'm getting to.

I'm truly understanding how to "let go" now too. It's quite the eye opening experience, isn't it?

My thoughts on your post, is that your grappling with the fear of a D. In your head, you've been fighting for your M to survive. After all, isn't that considered to be the ultimate goal on here?

What we fail to remember, is that getting that opportunity is not the real goal here at MB. It is nothing but a possible side effect of the true acheived goal: to better ourselves.

You need to find within yourself, the acceptance to move on with your life. I'm sorry that your W just doesn't get it. But you do not need to feel guilty about that fact. It's not your fault. You HAVE done the best you could. This could be the time that you realize that you need to move on by yourself, and without your W. That certainly doesn't mean that she cannot join up with you later. It's just at this moment in time, it may be the best way to go.

I'm writing all of this in an effort to convince myself of the same things. It's hard. It's damn hard in fact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But in my case, I KNOW that this detachment is taking place, has been taking place for a long time, and now it's up to me to do something about it. (how's that for sounding positive when I don't really feel that way? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Karen

J.R.,
One of the thingsI have respected about you is that you are very good at looking at both sides of this, and walking the middle.

I believe you are doing a very good job, and that you are going the right direction. I really don't know how you could have done it any better.

I encourage you to go ahead with it, at this point it seems to be the only thing you can do.

SS

J.R.

It's funny you post this becuase for the past few days this is how I have felt.

Maybe it's just getting stronger or maybe getting fed up...and maybe it will go away tomorrow or the next day but I have felt especially good about myself the past few days and I have wondered if that means I have gotten to the point of knowing I have done everything...and accepting that may not be enough...

I will be interested in the responses...

E

As a FWS, whose H has talked Dv since the beginning, and who is legally separated right now, it meant that there was no dilly-dallying. I ended the affair immediately. I started showing remorse immediately. My number one priority in life is finally my M, even though we are now separated. I've been to counselling to understand my selfish and hurtful actions. I've read so many books on infidelity and divorce and how to save a marriage.

So, perhaps the mention of the word "divorce" from the beginning gave me a much-needed swift kick in the butt immediately, and caused me to work harder on recovery than some other WSs who didn't hear that word.

But that's just me, someone who wasn't really that deep in the fog.

I hope my perspective helps to answer your question.

Jen

I certainly don't want to hijack this post, but...

For the experienced MBers, did you have this feeling while you were doing Plan A? For instance, I started doing Plan A a few weeks ago, after months and months of screwing up and doing nothing but LBs. However, there are days that I feel good by myself without her, although very few. When I feel that, I think about how that moment would be if she were with me and I realize it wouldn't be as good. So, at that moment I wonder if maybe I should just let go. Of course by the end of the day I miss her so much and I want to talk to her and hug her and... (you get the point).

So, all this confuses me. Did you go through this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, there are days that I feel good by myself without her, although very few. When I feel that, I think about how that moment would be if she were with me and I realize it wouldn't be as good. So, at that moment I wonder if maybe I should just let go. Of course by the end of the day I miss her so much and I want to talk to her and hug her and... (you get the point). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may not want to hear this from a FWS, but that is EXACTLY how I feel, very frequently.

For hours or maybe even days at a time, I feel confident and good, like I could survive without my H. Then that is tempered with times of complete and total loneliness for him, his touch, etc.

Sometimes I think time apart is a dangerous thing, because we see that we can make it on our own. One thing I plan to remind my H though is that "of course we can make it on our own, we are two intelligent, capable adults. But do we want to be on our own, or do we want to be married? What will make us happier?" I think that is the real question perhaps....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

JB

Topie: It's quite the eye opening experience, isn't it?

JR: Quite sobering, almost surreal. For me, it's like I can look outside my body as an impartial observer suddenly, and say, "what the heck are you doing, man?"

Topie: That certainly doesn't mean that she cannot join up with you later. It's just at this moment in time, it may be the best way to go.

JR: Fair enough... if I make a decision (that carries a lot of "sense" to it) and she holds it against me as a personal attack, that's another example of her being selfish and unkind towards me... in a way, the kindest thing she could possibly do right now - if she's not going to work on the M - is to "let me go" herself... to allow me the chance to find some happiness somewhere else. That would be the most gracious, loving gesture imagineable.

SS: I really don't know how you could have done it any better.

JR: Well... hindsight is always 20-20, but I feel a lot of comfort in things right now. I know I did a bad Plan B at first, but now I see it as giving her another chance, in a different way. Now I'm in a solid Plan B, and even SH agrees with that... likely based on where my feelings have gotten to. It's interesting to note that my feelings are very calm right now - I'm not raging or hateful. It's more a quiet determination - a sense of peace and protection for myself - a sense of loss, but also some anticipation. I still don't want to get too far ahead of things here, though.

Elad: and accepting that may not be enough...

JR: I've come to realize it really, really, really does make a world of difference - to know you did everything you could. For them, it must take so much effort to construct these strawmen and knock them down. I'm glad I don't need to do that.

Jen, you're one of those FWS's who make me truly question my tactics over the past 14 months... whether a LMBT approach might have been better, sooner. But then again, it would have been so much more painful... hence Plan A/B, which I can truly see the value in. I doubt we can "short-cut" through this mess, and 14 months is probably the magic timeframe that I'd take for "acceptance" regardless of my path... but at least I know I didn't let my W "escape" her dilemma. It's hard for you I imagine to be facing this in reverse, but the principles of loving detachment can still be healthy for you.

UC: For the experienced MBers, did you have this feeling while you were doing Plan A?

JR: Yes, but it usually passed, like you describe for yourself. That always told me that I wasn't ready for Plan B. Now that I'm in Plan B, it's another "level" of acceptance that's creeping in... and that's allowing me to contemplate filing myself... something I told myself I would not do - that I'd wait for WW, as long as it took for her to make that fateful decision herself. But I realize she may never do that, and I may lose all of my feelings for her completely - and then where would we be? She may have some false belief that I'm still "waiting for her", when in reality by then I'm well past the point of no return. One of my main dilemmas is do I wait for that point of no return while in Plan B (thus depriving her of some important insight into my heart), or just inches before reaching it, let her know what's ahead. Then how to judge it all? Something I need to talk with my IC about, I guess.

Jen: Sometimes I think time apart is a dangerous thing, because we see that we can make it on our own.

JR: Right, the WS needs to remind themself that they will end up with someone, someday. So what qualities do they want in a mate? Someone kind? Someone honest? Imagine writing a personal ad... the WS would probably end up writing many things that their BS was - and is now all the more. It boggles my mind when so many of them "trade down".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
You may not want to hear this from a FWS, but that is EXACTLY how I feel, very frequently.

For hours or maybe even days at a time, I feel confident and good, like I could survive without my H. Then that is tempered with times of complete and total loneliness for him, his touch, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I have heard it from my W and it hurts some and makes me feel like there is no chance in the future. Of course she does not tell me anything about missing me, my touch, anything. After my blunders today I am realizing that my emotions are still tied up to what goes on in her life. I need to detach myself over things I have no control over.

Thanks for your post.

J.R.,

Welcome to the club ... the club of moving on. At this point if you talk to Jennifer or SH ... they might even tell you to make a hard choice and filed. MB is designed such that BS could walk away w/ little chip on BS's ego in case plan A/B doesn't separate WS from OP.

-rh-

BTW: NewAlive wants to organize fishing trip soon, are you interested of going ?.

J.R.: Right, the WS needs to remind themself that they will end up with someone, someday. So what qualities do they want in a mate? Someone kind? Someone honest? Imagine writing a personal ad... the WS would probably end up writing many things that their BS was - and is now all the more. It boggles my mind when so many of them "trade down".

This is the thing that baffles me the most. My WW has said a couple of times that she feels she doesn't deserve me. What does that say about her or what she sees in OM (or me and my ability to choose a spouse)? It's hardest when, as the BS, you feel in your heart of hearts that WS DOES deserve you. I suppose, J.R., that we feel this way throughout. You do seem to be saying this. I guess it's just the question of determining when it's time to stop waiting for her to open her eyes.

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

Hey JR, sorry I didn't get here sooner. Works been a bear and my "helper" is no longer...so I'm flying solo.

Ok...my take on a few things... First of all, you asked what the Plan D letter might do for a WS. I agree with Topie, if the WS sees that your serious...in other words no more assurances and quite frankly little interest in the other party...it is quite an awakening. I would say that if the WS is still very much in the fog and determined as hell to stay there...they'll just cry and try like heck to throw the ball back in your court. It's your fault cause you won't give them enough time yadda yadda yadda. A little reverse fog would probably work the best there.

But the letter bit...seriously JR, if you want to make an impact, change the dance. Talk to her in person. Say what you need to say in person...or on the phone. Whatever...just stop with the long letters. You told her to file once, and then reassured her that you were just really emotional and just meant that you wanted to continue in Plan B. Each time the poop has hit the fan and she's gotten really uncomfortable, you've assured her of your love. I KNOW you want to make sure she knew you loved her...but in the fog processing machine she's turned that in to more and more and countless and endless amounts of time.

I guess personally I would say that when you've had enough, which it sounds like you're very close to...then just give her a call and let her know you're done. If she just throws fog your way...let her go. If she freaks out and wants to work it out, well, don't get too darn excited and don't assure her of ANYTHING. Let her prove herself in action. If she really means it, you'll be able to tell.

The fact that you really don't love her right now and can picture life without her doesn't mean much. It's to be expected really. My hubby and I weren't "in love" again when we got back together. I realized my husband really did mean a lot to me and that we could have a much better marriage if only I'd given it a chance...but I still didn't fully trust him or feel giddily in love with him. And you think after all our false recoveries that he trust me??? Not on your life. He took a risk...hoped for the best...looked for proof in action and the "in love" feelings and trust were rebuilt. Those bridges aren't burnt...you just can't see them right now.

You'll be fine if she decides to stay in the fog forever and you decide to move on in life....and you'll be fine if she pulls her head out of her butt and you try reconcilliation. I wouldn't overthink it too much since all possible "outcomes" are capable of change due to circumstances you can't possibly imagine. Figure out what you're ready to do today.

JR,

Why would you ask HER to file?

If you are ready for a divorce, then you should do it. If you aren't - then you shouldn't be talking about it.

Anything else is simply not honest or upfront.