Hey, are you still around? How did the marathon go? Did you finish- are you pleased with your time?

Hope all is well in your M.

Hi Espoir,

Many thanks for asking! Yes, I did it and am still in NY. I'm mightily pleased with the marathon result, having beaten my personal best by 40 minutes (!) with a finishing time of 3:47. And the best is, I still had plenty of gas left in the tank. NY Marathon is just such a great experience with the friendly crowd, the sights of the city and all of that.... awsome, just awsome. a mate said it's better than s*x... wouldnt go that far maybe, but close enough!

On the personal side, things haven't changed much. I beleive WW stopped contact with OM for good, for something like 3 months now. That's what she is saying, that's what my gut feel is saying, also I cant find any hard evidence of the contrary. that's the good news. on the bad news side, we still havent gotten any closer, and she is still very aggressive and quickly gets upset, angry and nervous, whatever I am doing. Yesterday we chatted for an hour over the phone (somehow, we always have the more open talks over the phone, not face 2 face) where she mentioned she wants to see an MC (but alone, not with me). She still has the feeling that we are basically incompatible, too different and she doesnt want to be stuck in the current situation forever. The same ol' points were thrown in with good measure, like the "I dont get energised with you, with musicians it's so different", "it's all your family's fault" yada yada yada. Also, in discussions she tends to always tackle the player (me) rather than the ball. So, every argument continues to turn into a rant why it's all my fault. I think she is in a depression, and I somehow can't lift her out from that hole. What is very frustrating for me is that I feel misunderstood and helpless in this situation. actually, I feel pretty depressed too (and have some v good reasons to feel that way, like, say, being betrayed, or not having any EN met for ages!). But the difference betwen her and me is that I have made a fundamental committment to stay in this marriage and to work on it... whereas she still seems to be unsure whether it's worth the trouble or not, and simply doesnt want to pick up the ball when I pass it on to her. Plan A is great, to try and try and try is good, but at some point I do expect an answer, like a smile, a cuddle, a thank you or whatever.....? But then again, I tried to move her to an MC for ages (since d-day, more than 6 months ago) and she always was full of contempt and scorn for these guys.... the fact that she is now volunteering is maybe a silver lining. At the same time, wherever I go, I see couples in love, or married, sometimes older, folks being tender with each other.... it always drives me nuts, my heart always rips apart when I see that.

Espoir, or anybody else out there, - is that phase / behaviour in line with the recovery process? or are we still before recovery? am I doing something wrong, not good enough?

Any help, views and comments appreciated. Thank you.

Wow! Impressive time! Was this your first time at the NYC marathon?

Two friends of mine, women, ran in the marathon. One (35) did it in 4:08, the other (34) in 4:34.
I wanted to go and cheer them on, but it was too cold for my kids. It was a chilly day this year, but at least it didn't rain.

I used to run, and I'm trying to get back into it, but it's hard because I am having problems with my left knee. I can't go too fast. So the Marathon is one of those dreams that are unlikely to come true. My sister has run the half marathon and she wants to do NYC. But when I saw some people did it in 6 hours, I'm thinking, well maybe I could do it SLOOOWLY.

So marriagewise, I don't exactly think you can say you're in recovery. Doesn't the spouse have to be remorseful, and trying to repair the marriage? However, you are moving closer to recovery. Your wife did end the affair. She woke up and smelled the coffee! She never left you, she is sleeping under your roof with you.

My guess is that your wife is still in withdrawal. Not necessarily withdrawal from the OM per se. She may well see him for what he is. But she may be mourning the loss of the idea of the affair. The idea that this exciting man, in a burst of romance, would sweep her off her feet, and be her soulmate. I do think it is very likely she is depressed. She is looking to others (musicians) to energize her. But energy has to come from within.

A warning about withdrawal. It can really last a long time. My H had "last contact" July 01. He was in withdrawal until about Feb 02. Meaning he was trying some, but still held back. He explained to me later that he was depressed over what he had done, felt bad about himself. Your wife may have not really dealt with those feelings. It sounds like she is turning her depression into anger and striking out at you.

I feel sorry for what you are going through- I don't know if I could bear it. Your resolve and commitment is admirable. I have my own issues that I'm dealing with in recovery. My H does love me, and I love him, but the A really disillusioned me about him. I'm envious of people on this board who post that their H's just had an EA, and stopped, or stopped immediately after Dday. My H dragged the continued contact out for 3 excruciating months, including a 2 day visit to her city to break it off, but he actually slept with her 3x while breaking it off. I told him before I left that if he had sex with her, our M could be jeopardized. I'm having alot of trouble getting over that. I think it symbolizes to me just how far my H could go to hurt me and disrespect my feelings, that he would risk our M in this way. I know you went through something similar, when your W went to SF, but worse yet, she didn't break it off. My M is OK, but I'm feeling a bit stuck- guess I should start my own thread about the issue of being stuck on the past.

The fact that your W is mentioning going to MC is a very good sign. Even if she goes alone. She is saying MC not IC and there's a big difference. You need to find a very good MC, someone who is supportive of marriage. The first MC my H and I went to was TERRIBLE! If we had stuck with him I don't think our M would have made it. Are you able to choose an MC, or is the MC assigned to you by National Health? Does your W have an MC in mind? It's a very good first step, if she takes it. I'm crossing my fingers...

Well, I hope your absence (in NYC) will make the heart grow fonder... I know it's tiring, doing Plan A, but keep it up! (encouragement from the sidelines) (I'd put in a smily face, but I haven't figured out how to use icons yet)- do you know how?

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Espoir - I was wondering too how Nick had been - funny that!

Nick, as Graham Norton would say, "Well done you"!!! What a fantastic time, you must feel very pleased with yourself.

Not much time now, but I'll be back tomorrow with a few thought about the rest of your post.

Lisa (in rainy London!)

Hi Nick

How are you today?

I had a couple of thoughts about what you said.

Firstly, your FWW is (to the best of your knowledge) finally through with OM for about 3 months. However, you do not think she has recommitted to the M yet and are you in recovery or not yet.

From my point, as you know I took the advice of the wise sage, Just Learning, and decided to give myself a 6 month time frame to a)let the very raw emotions of both me and my H calm down and not do anything rash during this time b) try and find myself again (why have I done this awful thing) c) try and get over OM and well, I don't think there is a d)!

It is very positive that your W is considering MC, but if it is only 3 months of NC, she is probably still in withdrawal and perhaps uncertain whether or not she can recommit if she still has feelings for OM. It would seem that she may have (sorry), but her comments about being energised by musicians and it all being your fault (of course it is eh?!?!?). The thing is, the feelings will continue to lessen and hopefully she will see all the things you are doing and have done to support her and keep your M together.

I do not mean this to sound negative. I think it is very good her wanting MC, and hopefully the upsets are becoming fewer and far between. I just think that the reality is, that it is only about 3 months which isn't very long (gosh I'm sounding like an old hand at this).

I am sure there are wiser people out there that could help you out Nick, but you're doing well, and let's face it, things are getting much much better.

Wishing you well from sunny London (are you still in NYC?).
Lisa

Hey, Lisa, while Nick is AWOL from this thread (no doubt sleeping off the jet lag, taking ibuprofen and massaging his aching muscles)
Just wanted to say- and I know I've only responded sporadically to your threads- that I think you made a wise decision in slowing down the time frame, giving yourself and your H some time to settle down. Time does help. I hope things improve for the two of you.

Hi Nick (and espoir and lisa in london) -- That is great news about your time in the marathon and an inspiration.

I am chagrined, but not suprised by WW actions and I think espoir and Lisa in London are probably right when she says that WW is in withdrawal and having a hard time seeing the positive things in life.

I do see big steps your wife has taken as mentioned by the others. No contact with OM. Willingness to go to MC. I think it will take a while to get the "oomph" back.

I find it interesting that your WW thinks musicians are sexy (or whatever she's saying with that comment). Personally, musicians have never done it for me, but marathon runners....just kidding.

How is your daughter doing?

Take care. I'm away this weekend on a badly needed girls trip with sister and friends.

Hello everybody,

First of all: Many thanks for checking in on me & you suggestions - it's all incredibly well appreciated! It may be silly, but you guys are actually the only ones who share in my thoughts & detailed history since the beginning&#8230;

My legs are doing v well - no ibuprofen necessary! In fact, I already contemplate my next run, which is likely to be Paris next March&#8230; to be continued! The run was very chilly, especially at the start. But NY marathon is just fantastic, definitely. Espoir, you should definitely watch the knee, which can be dangerous. I got some customised insoles, quite $$$, but worth every cent. Also, I definitely recommend seeing a physio in case you're serious about it.

Espoir, Lisa, Unsureheart, thanks for your views. 2 things I got out of it, which is news to me:
a) that withdrawal can be a LONG phase, like in your case 8 months Espoir! (how did you survive this...?)
b) that we are not really in recovery as long as she doesn&#8217;t admit guilt or even signals that she wants to make it work (apart from not doing a runner) - sounds straight forward, but it's true that I shouldnt expect big leaps as long as this condition isnt met.

I agree with both points and they do make sense. I guess I know what to tackle now, and what to expect in terms of time frame (bummer.)
I also hear what you both say in terms of MC. One of my closest friends who uses him for a 1 year recommended the guy to me. (in fact, my friend is the only person of my circle who knows about the whole darn thing). Right after d-day I gave the guy a ring and asked him what to do. I had 1 session with him, alone, where he gave me some elementary and useful hints, as well as explained some of the concepts to me, like e.g. the day after d-day that I was like a deer in a headlight thinking whether to 'fight' or to 'flight' , what emotional needs are (call me a bloody neanderthal ... yes, I had no concept of what that is before! I couldn&#8217;t articulate any of this!) and so on. I then asked my wife to come with me... she disagreed but agreed to see him alone. (that was at a time when she still was deeply in contact with OM and thought that I would agree to a quick divorce so she could move to him and that we all would happily and merrily continue to be in contact for the rest of our lives...). I don&#8217;t know in detail what they discussed then, but I think it was along the lines of "I don&#8217;t know whether I want OM or Nick", "how to tell Nick in the nicest way possible that he should pack his bags", "is reconciliation possible at all, in theory".
I then asked her to come with me together to see him, which she declined. At that time, she still was in contact with OM for another 3 months (traffic monitored by me, she constantly in denial).

Only a week ago she said she wanted to see him. Said fine, but let's go together. NOW WE HAVE AN APPOINTMENT FOR TOMORROW LUNCH TIME. Not sure what to expect... but will definitely ask him if he knows MB principles and what his take on it is.
Don&#8217;t know if NHS (National Health) covers it... anyway, we will give it a shot with that guy. Costs only about 25£ an hour, so wont make a big dent in my wallet anyway. Still cheaper than a divorce lawyer is my guess.

Lisa, your comments have been insightful re. timescale and feelings for OM. Yes, maybe she still has feelings for him. No, I think she definitely has. But she knows that I'll simply *BLOW* if I was to discover yet another contact. Rightly or wrongly, I do believe she stopped contact (but without showing me a NC letter or having told me she wrote one), so some doubts remain

You know, the funny thing is that so far I succeeded on all points (she staying with me, she dropping contact, us going to see MC), but each of these 'victories' has come at great cost to me (and her maybe too). Each of these points was accompanied with denials, shouts, accusations and tears (the first three from her part, the last from my side mostly) and discussions finished usually with her saying "NO WAY", only to fulfil my wish quietly some time later.

Yes Lisa, on the face of it things are getting better. But fact remains that I feel alone, haven't seen any of my ENs met for bloody ages and feel increasingly depressed... and don&#8217;t know for how long I can and want to keep up. Part of me feels increasingly confident as I get more "experienced" in all this and know how to handle situations better. But another part of me simply wants to run away and leave all these problems behind.

Unsureheart - yeahh, the ol' musicians thing. She is a musician, I'm not. Shouldn&#8217;t come as a great surprise, as I've never been one. I sincerely don&#8217;t believe that husband and wife must share the same profession. If I have a fulfilling job and my wife has a different job which is equally fulfilling, that's a normal situation for me. I have to say, I'm getting increasingly bored with this point and can't stand it anymore. All these things she says, like "as a musician, she has feelings" (&#8230; as opposed to me??), "she wants to live" (as opposed to what?), are just a load of horse manure. But let me stop my rant here and there, I guess I have to learn to tell her these things directly (not that I haven't tried in the past)

Our daughter is fine and an endless source of joy! Yesterday (and earlier too), she said things like "mama doesn&#8217;t like you anymore" and "why did you marry mama"... how do you explain these things a six year old...?

I'm really looking forward to tomorrows first joint meeting with MC. I'm really a bit anxious.
Let's see what he has to say,and more importantly, let's see what WW will say in front of him...

"Yes Lisa, on the face of it things are getting better. But fact remains that I feel alone, haven't seen any of my ENs met for bloody ages and feel increasingly depressed... and don’t know for how long I can and want to keep up. Part of me feels increasingly confident as I get more "experienced" in all this and know how to handle situations better. But another part of me simply wants to run away and leave all these problems behind."

Nick, when I read this, I thought I almost wrote it!!!!! How many times have you come along and given me support when I have said the exact same things about wanting to run away and it all going so slowly, and although it is progress, it's not enough - boy, it seems sometimes that us WS are not so far removed from the poor BS's on here!!! And, as I said to LIR the other day, you may feel lonely, but you aren't alone, because there is everyone out in MB Land, willing you on, wanting you to do better and hoping you'll make it....

Nick, the thing is though, you also know that if your ENs aren't being met, and your WW doesn't begin to show any signs that she will recommit, then you may have to make a decision about whether or not you do have a future together. Maybe you need to give yourself a timescale about what is reasonable for you and your situation and to keep your sanity. Sometimes I am amazed by the people here who just keep trying, and it seems to go on forever.

I'll say it again though, a commitment to MC together is a really big thing and a positive one. Take it easy when you go though, remember what happened with me and my H - he absolutely went through the roof and has refused to go back since. Inevitably, your W will say things that hurt you and you find difficult to accept, but that is all part of the healing process. Better she is talking and being honest.

Nick, I will be thinking of you tomorrow lunchtime. I am off for work in East Sussex for the next few days so will find it hard to get to a PC and see how you get on, but I wish you the very best of luck.

Take care
Lisa

Best of luck!

I think the fact that she is willing to go to MC is a huge step forward. And if she is willing to go with you, even better. And you are right, the money is well spent, much cheaper than a divorce. Let us know how it goes!

I can't really put myself in the WSs shoes. I had a bad night with my H last night. In fact, I'll have to start my own thread about it. (Hope you guys will give me some feedback when I do.)I try to mainly post in response to others, as my H resents my participation in MB. It makes me sad- I realized last night that our recovery may be useless. The problems we had before the A still exist, and have only been compounded.

I don't understand how the WS, like Nick's WW, could cling to her feelings for the OM. I truly hope it's not the case. He sounds like a real low life. I think the hardest thing for the BS to accept is the feelings the WS has for the OP. When you talk about missing OM, Lisa, it makes me feel so sad. I wonder if deep down my H harbors some feelings for the OW. He claims not, says if she called he'd hang up.

My question is though, does Lisa truly miss the OM? Does she truly know HIM? If he was the person he is with his BW, would she love him in the same way? His BW sees the warts and pimples- Lisa a carefully edited version. My H created an image of himself to OW- she never saw the real HIM. She never knew the man I've had to live with for the last 15 years. the post A feelings for the OP- what do they mean?

Also, Lisa might not miss the OM so much if her BH was plan Aing her more. It doesn't sound like he has done much of a Plan A.

But then you see a BH like Nick, doing a hell of a plan A, with little effect... what Nick's daughter said breaks my heart. Kids do pick these things up. But they learn from your efforts too- remember that.

hmm just musing a bit on all of this.....

Thanks Espoir, Lisa and Mongo for your feeback.

Well, one day up, then the other day down, isn't it. Seems to be your turn for the downer, Espoir! Now let me try to cheer you up for a change. I don&#8217;t know the details of your story as you don&#8217;t post that much about your personal situation. Why does your H resent you posting? I mean, it's totally anonymous, isn't it. Nevertheless, having gone that far, that long, past the A, is a v. good indicator, or is it not. When you write that the same problems are there as before&#8230; may be, but at least you (both?) see the elephant this time standing in the room between you. It should be easier now to call the elephant by his name rather than to play-act that everything is just fine. Potentially painful, but hey, no one said it's easy! Feel better? Let us know more, happy to give feedback.
You write also "BH like Nick, doing a hell of a plan A, with little effect&#8230;" well - do you think there's little effect? This time let me be a bit more optimistic. Plan A definitely showed effect - improvement is there, definitely. But it's just that it hasn't translated yet fully into bottom line results as I would coin it in business-speak. But I would v much hope to say that yes, the basic conditions to move forward happily are in place. Not all yet, but some.
You also write "I don't understand how the WS, like Nick's WW, could cling to her feelings for the OM. I truly hope it's not the case"
Me too! But realistically, I have to assume that after almost 2 years of me being viewed as the "baddie" and OM fulfilling - out of safe distance - a couple of ENs, that she can't suddenly switch the situation back to normal. You know that I wrote that I believe that they are not in contact anymore&#8230; you know about the nagging doubts I have from time to time&#8230; I just will never know, will I?

By the way, it&#8217;s not the "carefully edited version" a WW sees in an OM, I think it's the opposite: it's what the WW *wants* the OM to be, i.e. what she reads into his actions. At the same time, of course, OM takes care not to fart too loudly when WW is around - this will come when they're happily married.

Thanks Lisa for your views - as always v appreciated. I'm not yet in counting-the-days mode, not yet. I was before, as long as contact persisted. But I might be, maybe, at some point, if MC sessions prove to be useless. Good luck in Essex, will report back tomorrow.

Thanks Mongo for the encouragement. Have you put your story on a thread?