SC:

"In fact, probably her main justification for all of this has been that she feels she has always given and now it's her turn."

My W has used these exact words many, many times. What does it mean? Well, thinking about it I would say that yes, my W has been extremely selfless since I've known her - always going out of her way 2 do things for her family and her extended family, with no thought for her own gain. AT THE VERY SAME TIME she's been extremely selfish by having an A, and rationalizing it as her "secret 2nd life" that's none of my business.

The question has been, and always will be, how do I deal with this? I'm a big fan of communication, as you know. I've had some pretty nifty communication with my W, as she "detaches" in "her own way" from RM over the past months. Will it be enough, or will she cut contact completely with RM? I think so, even2ally. She isn't there yet, but because I haven't "pushed" her 2 "do it NOW" while still having the oppor2nity 2 communicate my boundaries (repeatedly, when necessary), I HAVE learned a lot about both of us and the "downfall" of our M over the past 12 years - stuff I wouldn't have learned, or would have blown out of proportion (or learned wrong) if I were in plan B right now.

I have no illusions. I could still end up DV'd. But I am certain that my love for my W will not fade, even if that happens. I will love her even if we can't be M'd.

I think we all know that we give and take, and sometimes give or take more that our patner...being equal in that is impossible, as is the fulfillment of ENs.

But that is really not the point except as it pertains to what the WS might decide to do in the future, and how much that perception of "having given more" weighs on the decision.

From my standpoint I have 2 options; either just totally disengage, almost as if no longer trying to save the M, behaving as if it's over and making the changes necessary to our financial arrangements to make that happen, or I can try to understand it, find a "comfort" zone from the financial and emotional standpoint, and keep hoping that the fog will clear enough for some changes to start appearing.

Clearly, although I am not trying to change her, and realize she must change herself, I do hope for the change since if it does not come there is no way we can be married. So that's why this is even being discussed...because when it feels like my "generous" financial arrangements, and my generosity of time and effort during Plan B appear to have alowed her to remain undecided longer, and appear to "facilitate" her continuing undecided, then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate those arrangements. On the other hand, my heart says not to do that, to just leave it alone, since this way, even if it takes a lot longer, IF she ever decided to work on us, it will have been for love and not for lack of help or financial support.

I'm on the fence now! (As far as these issues go, anyway!)

Hey Spaceguy - just wanted to let you know I have been following your thread and am behind you 100%. We need to get another Houston MB lunch going!

Brit's Brat/BS-41
FWH-43
DS-1 year old
Status: One Day At A Time

SC,

Just a few observations and comments.

You need to be in plan B. What is plan B? It is where you remove yourself from the situation. It is where you are comfortable with yourself and lot in life. Where am I going? The financial issues and the generous financial situation are in fact pulling you out of plan B. You are not where you will be financially and you are in fact Plan A'ing her with the current situation. Hence, your timeline is being shortened because you are not living where you can or want to live.

I realize your preferred choice would be with her and at home with the family, but given that is not an option, it is time you really went to plan B and got the financial situation where it is supposed to be. That also means your living arrangements. Then you might be willing to give this more time.

Further, there is a reason that Plan A is NOT recommended as a way of life. The reason, is that Plan A requires giving and trying to meed needs WITHOUT your needs being met. This ultimately leads to resentment and the death of the marriage. Need proof. Consider that you are still plan A'ing her with your financial arrangement and the sacrifice is leading to resentment and her seeming like a taker. She is but it isn't her fault, you are plan A'ing her.

Finally, just an observation. It seems to me in my readings on this site, that the way to get those "in-love" feelings is to LOVE the person you want to have those feelings for. I mean LOVE in the verb sense.

Even OLD 2L is doing this. He has decided to LOVE his W unconditionally and what happens? His feelings for her deepen. If you read any WS post here, the affair started with someone talking to them sharing their feelings their hurts. The WS reaches out to them, just as the OP reaches out to the WS. And gradually the reaching out (an act of love) leads to "in love" feelings.

So if your W ever asks can these feelings ever come back the answer is yes. But, it requires that she listen to you, help you, and gradually rebuild the marriage. Those feelings do come. You and most any BS around these parts, knows that once you find out about the A, the intense feelings are those of hurt, and deep love. And often as you rebuild those feelings of "in love" do get stronger, hence the pain gets actually stronger.

SC, I wish I could offer you some good advice about healing this thing, but the only thing I can suggest is be honest with her about YOUR feelings and plans. And tell her yes "in love" can come back, all it takes is for someone to act loving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go I do hope something I have said is of use.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

"Even OLD 2L is doing this."

Hey! I'll only point out that the letter "J" occurs MUCH LATER in the alphabet than the letter "2", so JL is older than 2L <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"He has decided to LOVE his W unconditionally and what happens? His feelings for her deepen."

I should point out that if it hadn't been for posters like SC and Ilove_Ulove, I would never have even heard of unconditional love.

"If you read any WS post here, the affair started with someone talking to them sharing their feelings their hurts. The WS reaches out to them, just as the OP reaches out to the WS. And gradually the reaching out (an act of love) leads to "in love" feelings."

Not sure where you're going with this. But I guess the thing I've been feeling the most strength come from for me is the knowledge that *I* CAN love my W unconditionally, EVEN IF we DV, whereas RM CAN'T, because unconditional love is impossible without complete honesty, just like MB principles don't work without it. I've taken a great deal of solace in that fact, and it's had a very positive affect on how I interact with my W. Another thing RM can't do. Not just because they've had 2 lie 2 each other and every one else 2 have an A, but because he's not HERE, but I AM (precisely because I'm NOT in plan B, even though many might think I should be).

"So if your W ever asks can these feelings ever come back the answer is yes. But, it requires that she listen to you, help you, and gradually rebuild the marriage."

Again, this is easier 2 do "out of" plan B than in it. And, based on your definition of plan A, and the "danger" of plan Aing for 2long, I guess I must not be in plan A either! Because I firmly believe that loving my W unconditionally would not be possible if I was "meeting needs 2 excess" or whatever, such that I burn out and lose my love for my W. I believe that by removing the conditions on my love for my W, I'm not just allowing her 2 feel less pressured, I'm putting myself in a much more comfortable place 2. And that "place" is the knowledge that I am responsible for my own happiness, and she for hers, and so I don't feel any "need" 2 put up a plan A facade 2 win her back.

I've thought about this a lot, particularly with regard 2 what my IC said 2 me about "maybe you should just tolerate her A. So what if she continues a R with RM? She's 48, where's she going 2 go? Lots of famous people put up with their philandering spouses, so why don't you learn 2 shift your paradigm of right and wrong and learn 2 live with it?" I never went back 2 that guy. But I've thought a lot about what he said (though not in the way he intended, unless he's a lot deeper than I imagined! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), and what really has struck me the most is part of what I said above and very much part of what we're taught here on MB. And that is, we can't do ANYTHING 2 change our WSs. We can only change ourselves (or our perspectives). We save our Ms or "move on" in a healthy fashion based entirely on how good a job we do of understanding ourselves and how we interact with others (in this case, particularly our WSs). And so, because RM is in another state and thus not available 2 "interfere" so easily as some, it's been a heckuva lot easier for me 2 "rebuild" while living with my W. And I have 2 wonder if the same might be the case for SC (though that's his decision), because he's the one that introduced me 2 the unconditional love concepts as "principles" that FINALLY seem 2 work the best for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (thanks, SC!).

"Those feelings do come. You and most any BS around these parts, knows that once you find out about the A, the intense feelings are those of hurt, and deep love. And often as you rebuild those feelings of "in love" do get stronger, hence the pain gets actually stronger."

I'm not sure what you mean about that last part, JL. I do understand (and remember!!!) the emotions you describe pertaining 2 post-d-day. But I'm not sure I understand the last part... ...or maybe I do? I recently said 2 someone, out of hurt from a convo I had recently with my W: "This must be recovery, because it $UCK$!"

All my best 2 all!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong>Hey Spaceguy - just wanted to let you know I have been following your thread and am behind you 100%. We need to get another Houston MB lunch going!

Brit's Brat/BS-41
FWH-43
DS-1 year old
Status: One Day At A Time</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey BB!
Yes, we should get another one together..that was Honey's department! LOL!!!

I'll be out of the country for a few days, returning next week, so I'm ready!

Thanks, JL; I think you've pretty much summed up my situation clearly, and I have some decisions to make...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

Just a few observations and comments.

You need to be in plan B. What is plan B? It is where you remove yourself from the situation. It is where you are comfortable with yourself and lot in life. Where am I going? The financial issues and the generous financial situation are in fact pulling you out of plan B. You are not where you will be financially and you are in fact Plan A'ing her with the current situation. Hence, your timeline is being shortened because you are not living where you can or want to live.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. I must either find a way to get myself home so I can do a "2-Long", or change my financial and living arrangements to implement a "truer" Plan B.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I realize your preferred choice would be with her and at home with the family, but given that is not an option, it is time you really went to plan B and got the financial situation where it is supposed to be. That also means your living arrangements. Then you might be willing to give this more time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is precisely what I'd like to do, but you're right; it doesn't look like it's "an option".

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Finally, just an observation. It seems to me in my readings on this site, that the way to get those "in-love" feelings is to LOVE the person you want to have those feelings for. I mean LOVE in the verb sense.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, which is what I told her, but until she either reaches this conclusion on her own, or somehow believes me... she doesn't believe it right now.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Even OLD 2L is doing this. He has decided to LOVE his W unconditionally and what happens? His feelings for her deepen. If you read any WS post here, the affair started with someone talking to them sharing their feelings their hurts. The WS reaches out to them, just as the OP reaches out to the WS. And gradually the reaching out (an act of love) leads to "in love" feelings.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct. In effect, 2L has be re-falling in love and getting his W to do the same...that's the exact description. And it does happen the same way it might happen with an OP...the process is the same, only the players change.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if your W ever asks can these feelings ever come back the answer is yes. But, it requires that she listen to you, help you, and gradually rebuild the marriage. Those feelings do come. You and most any BS around these parts, knows that once you find out about the A, the intense feelings are those of hurt, and deep love. And often as you rebuild those feelings of "in love" do get stronger, hence the pain gets actually stronger.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish she WOULD ask...I wish she'd have a little faith...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SC, I wish I could offer you some good advice about healing this thing, but the only thing I can suggest is be honest with her about YOUR feelings and plans. And tell her yes "in love" can come back, all it takes is for someone to act loving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go I do hope something I have said is of use.

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, being honest about my feelings and the "reality" is exactly what I tried to do when we met...but it's a no go with her for now.

I need to find a "solution". I appreciate the feedback, JL. Really do.

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

I think it's over.
I’m not sure if this is right or wrong, fair or not, good or bad. But I feel that the only thing I can do, the only thing I want to do is to get a divorce.
It’s probably in part a reflection of the fact that I have not grown enough, have not reached a point where I can deal with the reality that is my wife and be OK with that. There is still a part of me that says; “I can’t be happy here, I can’t be happy like this, I have the right to be happy too.”
And there’s another part of me that realizes she must find her own way as well. She must, on her own, find what makes her happy, and if along the way she finds she needs to change, great. If not, that’s OK too.
I have done what I could all along the way with what I have had. As I have learned and grown, some of that has been reflected in my thoughts and actions, I have tried (and succeeded) in allowing her the freedom to do as she pleases without letting it “get to me” and making me angry or hurt. But that does not mean it’s OK with me and I can live with that. It’s OK for her to do as she pleases, but that is not the life I want.
I want to have a partner with whom I can share and be happy with, not a partner of convenience or a partner that makes me feel like I am not a partner. If she has her relationships and other things outside of our relationship that is OK, it’s just not OK for our relationship to continue. We should be friends, not enemies, we should be a team, not competitors. I don’t need to win, I just want to be happy, and I want her to be happy. I wish we could be happy together, but apparently we can’t.
Now that I am back at home things have been alright, but we’re not together; I’m sleeping in my son’s room, and we share only the “community” aspect of life; meals, chores, etc. Nothing intimate or personal. She does her thing, I do mine. But that’s no way to live…I want more and she wants more, I’m sure.
But she’s not ready to try; says she doesn’t want a divorce, but also does not want to say what she wants or how she expects “us” to be in the meantime. I have allowed her full freedom in everything without judgment or complaint or comment. She has allowed me much the same. Perhaps the only area where we’ve had some friction has been with the kids. I’ve laid out my feelings pretty openly with them, and have allowed them to make up their minds about what is right or not, what is acceptable or not, and clearly they side with me most of the time in terms of their sense of right and wrong, but I’m neither pushing them to that, nor am I using them in any way against their mother. However, she does lecture them often and attempts to get them to agree with her…she’s competing in a one-sided competition where I have not participated. My kids agree with some of what I feel and do, and disagree with some as well. And that’s OK. At least they know how I feel and have seen my sincerity.
She does not want to try. I told her I knew I was not perfect and that likely there were many things we would never be able to “fix”, but that I was willing and desired to try. She is “not ready”. And simply put, It’s been long enough for me. In February it’ll be 18 months since dday, and essentially nothing has changed in terms of coming together to work on our marriage. She says she does not want a divorce, but is not willing to do anything meaningful for the relationship or towards reconciliation. She just wants to “be” like we are; separate, free, with no responsibility towards each other and with nothing discussed or worked on, and I don’t want to live like that.
So probably over the next few days I will get with my attorney and file for divorce, break the only tie still binding us, and move on with my life, and in search of my happiness and my growth. She will no doubt do the same, and I truly wish she succeeds.
She will always be the love of my life, and in my heart she will always hold a special place; and by letting her go, seeking my path and allowing her to seek hers, I believe I am doing what was meant to be, and what is right.
Perhaps time will tell.

SC,

I am sorry to hear this news, but it seems like a reasonable solution to an unreasonable situation. If she doesn't want to work on reestablishing the marriage and relationship, there really is nothing you can do.

I do hope you find the happiness you seek with this course of action. I also hope that at some time in the future, you hear at least a few words from your W that shows that she has some comprehension of what you have done and endured.

God Bless,

JL

SC:

I'm both delighted and sorry that it's come to this. Delighted because I've followed you through this journey, at least the last year or so of it, and so I KNOW how much you've grown in the process. So, I know that you don't arrive at this conclusion lightly by any measure. It's a difficult decision to DV someone you've spent such a large portion of your life with - raising a wonderful family together... And so I'm also sorry and saddened by this decision. It's an end of something. Hopefully an end to your turmoil, first and foremost.

But it's also a beginning. Even an opportunity for your W to start over. Maybe she needs this to really get to a point to be able to take a leap of faith in herself that she can have a future better than the guarded life she's had to lead up until now. At least, now her reasons for not being forthcoming will be gone. It'll be up to her what she does with this new opportunity.

All my best, always.

Wish you the best spacecase. You deserve it.

Best Regards,

I can't think of anything to say .... I will support you in any way possible. You have grown.

Ppep

Hey Space,

I'd advise you to sit down and try to POJA this divorce before you actually go off to file. Get her to brainstorm alternatives with you (if she will). Propose different solutions.

It's probably not going to make much difference, but it will demonstrate the skills you've learned here, and she'll at least know that you've tried to take her feelings and concerns into account.

Sorry to hear about this turn.

K:

Good suggestion. SC might as well also show his W what he's posted. What's there to lose at this point?

If' it's truly over, then she has to see it too. POJAing the decision will give her one last opportunity (really a protracted one while the papers are enroute) to show what SHE might do to save the M, if that's what she wants.

go, SC!

SC,

I'm probably the least qualified to offer any input to your situation, but I figure it can't hurt.

In reading a divorce recovery book, I came across a great suggestion that I want to offer to you.

Basically, if you and your wife come to this FINALITY together, then the following exercise is suggested to reinforce the meaning of this event to BOTH of you.

One partner is to lie on the floor and play DEAD. The other partner can then say everything that they need to say to the DEAD spouse. Do not hold back. Let it come from the gut and heart as if this person was truly DEAD to you. The "corpse" can not react, or defend, or anything. They are DEAD and the exercise is meant to give them time to HEAR you.

After a few days of processing, the other spouse plays the DEAD one, and the whole process is repeated.

The idea behind this is that once the reality hits of what the divorce really means, it will clear away any last doubts or reinforce the goals to follow through.....

Spacecase,

I've been around this site for a long time, mostly just reading now as I am divorced and have little advice to give.

I come in and read quite a bit though, and as I was doing this today I saw a poster commiserating with another poster...saying she was sitting at her computer crying her heart out after reading a particularly sad passage. I thought, in all the years I've been here at MB I can't remember really crying like that for another member.

Until now.

Well, I'm at work, so can't loose it completely, and I'm not really crying because of sadness. I remember how bittersweet it was to come to the decision you seem to be making. I did a helluva Plan A too, tried B, but like you it was really tough with three kids...but I knew when it was time.

Whether it is that time for you now, or not, don't be afraid to let it go if you have to. I came to the point that I knew I would die if I didn't let my husband go.

Peace be with you.

allison

When I first found MB, your thread was the one I really followed. I've only been here since Aug. and my W has already come home and we are on to recovery. I'm truly sorry to see you're where you are now. From what I've read, you seem like a fine person that certainly doesn't deserve this. I won't give any advice other than just do what you feel you have to do to best take care of you and yours. If your W wants to go great, if not, then like I told my W, I'll miss you baby but life goes on. Best of wishes to you.

MTD

My sincere thanks for all the support and encouragement. MB has made a big difference in my life, as have many, many of its members.

Perhaps this plea, which has helped me so much, will help others as well:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May we all stand firm in the knowledge and comfort that all things are now, have always been and forever will be, in Divine order, unfolding according to a Divine plan.

And may we truly surrender to this truth, whether we understand it or not.

May we also ask for support in consciousness in feeling our connection with the Divine part of us, with everyone and with everything – so that we can truly say and feel-we are One.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Cadet,

The time comes when we reconcile our heart and mind into one decision. Funny how looong it takes us to get there and yet it seems short but not sweet.

Cadet, you will begin to feel some release as you move forward. This is the time to allow the support group around you to come to your aid.

Don't leave us, not yet ok? We can help be your support also. I have been here for 2 years now and still feel the support of this board.

You are a good person, H and father. Remember that. You are also right to be entitled to happiness.

take care,
L.

We find our power by letting go...