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im running into a little problem lately. my W and I have been getting along the last couple of weeks with only one or two LB's on my part but many on hers. I feel like W's A with OM is still continueing but not for certain. W has started taking care of friends cats while they are away. each night she goes to their house to take care of cats and is usually gone for aleast 30min and has been gone for up to 2hrs. somenight she says she sits and reads a book or takes a bath. for awhile i called her just to ask how it was going and make sure she didnt fall asleep, maybe i was wrong for doing it but could stop myself. she was there everytime but im afraid OM might meet her there (perfect opportunity for them) my imagination tends to run wild. at the beginning after i found out about A and before i found MB's i made a lot of LB's. now i'm scared to bring up A because i dont want anymore LB's. my question is how (if at all) do i bring up the subject and negotiate for the A to stop without causing anymore pain or LB's on either side. one thing i failed to mention WW is pregnant with OM's child. please advise <small>[ November 12, 2002, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: rothals ]</small>
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rothals - I replied to your post on JFO before I saw this one indicating your W is PG by OM.
I hope you get some good advice by others in this situation - perhaps you've already posted on the Pregnancy board.
PG or not, MB principles still apply if you want to recover your marriage, but this dimension is obviously a much bigger challenge for a male BS. I don't know what I'd do in this situation.
Please keep posting, keep reading, and keep learning. The answers will come.
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Couple of questions for you, before I can begin to give you some advice. Are you sure your W is pregnant with OMs child, or is there a chance its yours? Also, do you have any other children? Michael
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<strong>Are you sure your W is pregnant with OMs child, or is there a chance its yours? </strong>[/QUOTE] im 95% sure this child is from OM. i had a vasectomy 3 yrs ago and was just tested again about 4 mos ago and all was clear. There is always a chance its mine, but im 95% sure its not. to give you a quick background: this is my W second M and my first, been together for almost 5 yrs. she has 2 children from previous and 2 from our union. this will be number 5 for her. OM has 2 children and lives with mother. little frustrating seeing OM always has a babysitter and can leave and meet my W when ever. W and i can never do anything together since its so hard to find babysitter for 4 children
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I would make a HUGE effort to either find that babysitter or take everyone along with to go feed those cats. I highly doubt your imagination is running anywhere. She could be meeting him or she could have call waiting and be talking to him. I would say there's a HUGE chance that is happening. No contact is extremely important, especially given her extra sensitivity of emotions due to the pregnancy...she may scream foul and a whole spiel about being a prisoner...but boo hoo...that's the price you pay and if she's serious about recovery she'll deal with it.
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I'll try to answer your question with the following.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr Willard Harley Jr:
Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.
A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.
But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.
Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.
Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?
While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B,you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a complement to plan A and no love busters, I would suggest you consider Michele Weiner Davis's 180 degree list. Here it is:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! 2. No frequent phone calls 3. Do not point out good points in marriage 4. Do not follow her around the house 5. Do not encourage talk about the future 6. Do not ask for help from family members 7. Do not ask for reassurances 8. Do not buy gifts 9. Do not schedule dates together 10. Do not spy on spouse 11. Do not say "I Love You" 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc. 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation), be scarce or short on words. 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. show him someone he would want to be around. 20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) 21. Never lose your cool 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic 23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger) 24. Be patient 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you 26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil) 28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.
Of course you won't see results overnight, but in the days and weeks that you faithfully follow all of the above, your behavior will definitely get noticed by your WW and her behavior towards you will definitely be affected.
A war is seldom won overnight, and this one is no different. If you despair, then the enemy has won a great victory and it's just a matter of time before you lose completely. So your attitude and outlook on life has to be a positive one regardless of whether your marriage survives or not. You and your children deserve no less.
Good luck and God bless.
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rothals - CoffeeMan is exactly correct. My reply to you on JFO in which I stated you shouldn't negotiate for your WS to end the affair was specific to trying to end the affair by interferring. I had forgotten that Harley uses the term "negotiate" in the MB literature. I hope I didn't confuse you.
WAT
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WAT & coffee i understand and im trying my best to not interfer. i think im doing ok in that aspect although it is tough. as bad as i want it to stop ill try not to interfer with it. it will be hard for me tonight because W is planning to go to friends house to feed cats and has already said shes planning on staying awhile. will try not to call her while shes there, just have to stay preoccupied. ive been on this site most of the day and have read some good posts but some have gotten me down because in almost all of them both members are trying to save the M and i dont see that in mine, but ill keep trying plan A until W leaves in January. when she leaves do you suggest i continue to try plan a or go to plan b? i know ultimately its my decision but i was wondering your input. i know she will still be in contact with OM by phone because of the pregnancy and because she still doesnt want to give him up. i truely appreciate your responses since this is the only place where people understand i want my M to work. All my so called friends just tell me to move on and start setting up my own back account and to press charges against OM(military is very strict on adultery, OM could end up in jail or kicked out) but i dont want to hurt OM or W. I do feel he should be held accountable for his actions but reluctant to press charges because of W, but thats a different issue. well out of stuff to say for now just feel like i keep repeating myself over and over again...hope im not annoying anyone...will probably be back on soon. thx for support
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "when she leaves do you suggest i continue to try plan a or go to plan b?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh definitely plan A, no love busters, and the 180 degree list.
Here's what Dr Willard Harley Jr says about plan B:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.
Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.
Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
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