Hi all

I'm continuing with a new thread which follows the old one:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=021025

We had our joint first session today at the MC. Bottom line: some good, some not-so-good news. For those not having followed my thread so far, here's a brief abstract: D-day in march, ongoing contact behind my back (I was monitoring that, but it was constantly denied and I was lied at), plan A for about 6 months; then I said: look, drop contact now, or else [I walk, resp. she should leave the house].
After which we entered some sort of a "truce" phase, where she dropped (I think) the contact, with no real LBing or bad times, but no progress neither. Last week, WW went to see a MC (the guy I asked for advice the first day after d-day), and I've asked whether I can join in too. In fact, it was an idea of mine, which she ridiculed initially but now finally came around.

So there we were, husband and wife, betrayed spouse and wayward spouse, father and mother of our child, sitting at the MC's office.

The first Question the MC asked was what our goal is. Mine, I said, is clear - reconciliation. That's why I was still at home, despite of what happened, that's why I'm in this room. Interestingly, my wife said, she "wants to learn more about herself" without a firm commitment from her side to the marriage in the first place.

Then we quickly started to argue - sort of a contest, who got hurt the most in our relationship with all the ol' stories thrown in. The MC immediately picked up (and said it crystal clear) that my WW is 1) *very* angry, 2) denies that I have feelings [like, when I say: look, I was really sad - she would counter: No, you didn't!], tackles the player and not the ball. In a weird sort, it felt good to receive confirmation from a neutral third party! I mean, for long time I was really going out of my mind from not knowing what *I* was doing wrong.

I reiterated on the fact that I was ready to move on, to learn, to work on us. She, on the other hand, kept on re-iterating the golden oldies from top of the fog pops: with the A, she knew what love she can give & receive, it all felt natural, she doesn’t want to work on it as it's not a mechanical thing blah blah blah, she didnt feel supported by me, my family is all at fault left, right and center, that I wasn’t given enough love in my childhood therefore I cant give myself even if I wanted etc etc etc.

Also very interestingly, MC said that WW was "a moving target" who really doesn’t know what she wants. If you say, but you just said A so let me do therefore B, she would duck & dive away. For example, she admitted on the one hand that "the affair is totally out of character for her, given her personality & cultural background [true - she's muslim and generally very responsible]", but at the same time takes the "feelings" during the A for reality. The moving target aspect, he mentioned, also makes it very hard for me (and her!) to focus and act towards a certain goal! how true - how many times did I write here that whatever I've tried, I would end up with mud on my face??

The other interesting area the MC picked up was that WW was generally full of anger, depression, guilt, blame and shame, which she directs towards me. Again, that was an observation I made long ago and told her numerous times (I also posted my observations here), but it nevertheless "felt good" to hear it from a neutral third party (not that it felt good - merely a confirmation that my gut instinct I've developed in the last 6 months was spot on)

The MC's bottom line was that the issues, feeling of being lost and major decisions are squarely in her court, not mine, - but that to make it work, we need to do it together. I subscribe to that!

On my side, he mentioned that obviously WW doesn’t "trust" me and feels "that I don’t love her". These are good points I have to work upon and ask myself some hard questions too. Also, he said, that for next time I should think about what I want (like, what my ENs are) and *why* I want to make the marriage work.

We had a discussion whether we should continue the three of us or just MC and WW. We agreed on an additional session, which will take place this Friday.

***

Views anyone? Particularly, I would like to ask those who have gone through such a MC process, whether this is a healthy "base one" to start off the process? I'm particularly worried about my wife's state of mind and frame of mind - can a MC process work if, say my WW, says she isn't committed to the marriage in the first place? Or am I way off expecting such a commitment? Or am I foolish to give such a commitment?

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

jmho...I think your W should continue with some IC with this counselor BESIDES continuing with the MC for both of you. And it wouldn't hurt for you to have some individual sessions either. Follow the lead of the counselor. Be open to whatever he/she says would be the "best" way to both of you getting what you want.

It sounds as if your W needs to find out what she wants to began with. She's got some issues that are all hers, just as you have some which are all yours. (Is your W correct/could be correct about the issues you may still carry from childhood?)

The counselor should validate both of your feelings...as feelings are what they are. Make sure that neither you nor the counselor "gang up" on your W...make positive statements about your W whenever possible.

I'm a little surprised that your counselor allowed you to argue. Mine put a stop to it immediately. But maybe it was a chance for him/her to see how you argue and learn the mistakes you make when doing so. (We all need to learn to fight fair, and few of us do so without learning to use new tools.) I would ask for some help in learning some productive arguing tools.

IF your W truly doesn't feel that you love her, this is something you can do which will make a difference. Begin being more open with your affection. THE SMALL THINGS COUNT! A touch as you walk by, a hug and kiss when you come home or leave for work, listening to her and hearing what she says, not what you think you heard. Taking her for a walk in a park. Spending time with her that you normally would spend doing something else. Picking up SMALL gifts which show that you're informed about something which is important to her. (If she reads, a book by her fav author. etc. NOTHING large.)

MC can work even if one of the spouse's isn't giving it their all. Sometimes we are rewarded with a "lightbulb" moment in-spite of ourselves. Keep going for counseling.

Good Luck!

Hi Nick,

Well considering the condition of your W, I'd say it was progress. Boy I sure can relate to your MC session. Had something similar. Must say though, our session was a bit more rough and ended with me having a suicide attempt and wanting to end it all (for real).

The MC brought out a lot of issues but one of the comforting ones was that the BS is NOT the focus of the issue. It is the right thing for the BS to acknowledge where we need to improve or outright change but to be burdened /blamed for things that are NOT our fault often puts the BS in a quandry and prevents the real issues from being identified. So for you to have the MC validate what you know was a bit of a relief, right? I felt it, just in your post.

In my case, once I was able to not feel guilty for what was really not my fault, I was able to heal and even overcome those anxiety attacks and suicidal thoughts. Oh yea, those thoughts when enacted scared the WS but for me, it wasn't a threat, I meant it and the only thing that stopped it was that I was pulled back. Scary ya know! I don't recommend anyone go to that extreme.

However, I did learn to put the A and other problems that truly resided with the WS with the WS. Boy he didn't like it but it sure made me feel better. That's when I learned to get better at the reverse babble technique.

Get this, I even told the WS that the OW was right, he really didn't need his family and we didn't really need him. He already proved that. In essence, I pushed him to the OW. ..........guess the fact that the OW was a bit psyco helped!!! LOL! He knew it but would not admit it to me until I told him that 'he and the OW beeeelooooonnged to together.' Just like that.......with that dramatic effect. LOL! Boy that made him squirm in his pants right in front of me. What I didn't realize was that he knew that it wasn't going to work with OW. But he was still addicted to the A and very much out of control (he contests that part - so that's my opinion that just happens to match his actions and some of his statements).

Yes confusion reigns high in the A and fog. The whole time they may say they are in control and perfectly sane. My H just told me that the other day......I told him if he was in full control of his facilties back then, then he is even more guilty than I thought. It took him aback and he was silent. Guess he may still be in the fog and jolts of reality are still needed.

I wish you well on your journey on healing. Sounds like your W has a ways to go. All our mates do.

Take care of yourself....... it is the safe thing to do.

L.

Nick - boy, your description brought back memories - of the one and only joint MC session I had with my WS. After reading your description I'm surprised your W agreed to go in the first place. In my case, my WS realized, I think, that the MC wasn't about to buy into her denials, accusations and explanations and she wouldn't go back.

I'm with wifey on getting her to participate in IC. Since you've got another session scheduled, perhaps go thru with it, but I suggest you do your dern best to not let it get too adversarial because she may give up on further sessions if she feels trapped. In IC she may feel more comfortable criticizing you - which is stuff she has to get out and process with the help of the C.

WAT

Thanks for your views - you simply don&#8217;t know how much I appreciate it.

A few comments -
Just a wifey - re: showing affection: yes, agree. But tried that in the past - and was clearly shown that this was NOT appreciated. At this point I don&#8217;t want to impose myself - rather wait for her to come to me? Re. the point of the childhood - I think this is a cultural thing. In my (western European) culture it is a fact that people even within the family tend to be cooler towards children (same as for you yanks I suppose); maybe my family wasn&#8217;t particularly affectionate either - hey, nobody is perfect. If I have an issue there, I'm happy to work on it.

Orchid - sounds like my first MC session was a resounding success compared to yours! Glad to hear that you're past the suicidal stage. No seriously, I can see what you mean. I mentioned earlier, my dad went that way, also due to an A :-( I'm not in that mood - however, I do have to say that I started to care less about certain things, which were important to me before. Like: Money? Job? Who cares if I lose it? Why do I have to be the responsible always? Why not just hit the road for a few years and live like a bozo? Maybe I'm exaggerating slightly, but I do have thoughts of this sort once in a while. Not healthy, I know.
And YES, I was relieved that my gut feel has been validated. Big time. Hate to say that, but it was the first time some outsider called things by their name in a crystal clear fashion - according to what I've always thought & felt (in contrast to the bull I was fed by WW)

WAT - " ... that the MC wasn't about to buy into her denials, accusations and explanations and she wouldn't go back".
I think WW sort of knows THAT she has issues, but can't clearly put the finger on them. At the bottom of it there's a whole entangled heap of them, clearly, like: many tragic deaths in her family, cross-cultural issues, parenthood, her work/job etc etc etc. But how to get out of them? That's the problem she's gotta solve. And I think she knows that all these issues are at the bottom of our relationship (where I am surely also sometimes part of the problem - ain't no saint). Knowing my wife, I think she knows that first she has to solve these before working on the relationship. And I think, her anger & aggression, shame & blame is maybe directed towards me as a mechanism of coping with all these issues ...? Or maybe, she projects all these issues onto me so she can search, attack & destroy them...? Who knows - I am not the psychologist. Now, I would very much like to be part of that journey and give her support, i.e. tackling these rather personal issues with an MC, jointly. But maybe the conclusion will be that she'll have him as an IC with me joining in later on, or whatever. Geez! How complicated!

Thanks for tuning in - more to come, for sure.

Update - had the second session today.

What can I say? More questions than answers, I suppose.

MC observed again how quickly we went into a blame game, how we got used to "push each others buttons". OK OK now my very objective opinion :-) is that while I try to be calm, or even if MC tries to make a point, WW lashes out and feels attacked. OK, I plead guilty: I sometimes say things that I know will have a certain effect. Call it an LB? Not sure. For example - when I say, "look - I always ask that we can spend time just between you and me" she attacks me (and in front of the MC) as being a bad father 'cause we would leave our daughter out. Hmmmm. FACT - we haven't spent time, just as a couple, for *years*, scoring a clear and definite 0 on the 'recreational companionship' factor. So... however nicely I say it, it has a huge (and adverse) effect on impact. Therefore not mentioning it all certainly is a solution... which we have learnt to practice & refine over the years... but it's not a solution of course 'cause it avoids the problem. See what I mean? am I the only one here with this issue?

Looks like we completely lost our way how to talk. As long as it's simple admin stuff to sort out, as long as it's just on the surface, we live with each and communicate rather well. But when it goes deeper, it's just such a mess! Whatever I seem to say, brings up the rage in her. And - needless to say, that sometimes I fall for it and argue back. The MC's take: both of us are incredibly vulnerable, hurt and angry.

Also, not sure about the communality of goals we have: We're both at the MC - fine, so far so good. My goal is clear - to make it work. Her's is still rather confused - she can't give any commitment, even not fully to the process (we will tough continue to go jointly for the next 5 sessions or so). Even worse - she says "she is sooo tired, she changed so much in the past, she can't change anymore" and "she understands me, but I don&#8217;t understand her".

So, without some fundamental commitment, without some acknowledging of own mistakes, and without any willingness to change .... where will the journey go?? How long will this go on...? Start of her A, when all turned *really* bad, was two and a half years ago... Getting tired, as I think I deserve some happiness too :-( . Needless to say, that I find it incredibly tough at the moment to find the energy to be nice to her - even to be with her.

Hi Nick,

I, too, am going through a similar situation with my H. D-Day was a couple of days ago and my H is beyond broken over this. I have a lot of issues, childhood ones that I never addressed. Your wife sounds like me, however this final act of betrayal I committed with the PA with the exbf made me wake up. I, too, want to "learn more about myself" and in doing so am realizing that I shut my husband out and married him for the wrong reasons. I was brutally honest with my husband and told him that I don't think I was romantically in love with him when I married him. I also told him that I married him because I knew he would be a loyal husband and father to my children. Talk about kicking someone while they are down...I do believe that honesty will set me free and improve our marriage no matter how hard it is to take. Luckily, I did fall in love with him but was emotionally abusive to him. All of this is just a symptom of the fact that I have never loved myself and have too much baggage from my CH. We have the first MC session on Monday and I will keep you posted. Give your wife a chance to get to know herself better so she can learn to love you the way you deserve. I believe that every marriage is worth fighting for and the within every person lies a history that needs to be explored...Best of luck to you. I am fighting for my marriage as well and I am being the GIVER for once. It really feels good that I am doing something to help our marriage instead of sabotaging it. Her anger will subside over time with counseling and lots of love. God bless and good luck...

BYF

Had a very stressful weekend, I'm afraid.

Friday (the day of MC session #2), I was emotionally quite drained with more questions than answers (see my note above). Next day, Saturday, we didn't have much interaction - I took daughter to Circus, we had some nice dinner prepared by WW, and watched a rental movie, which I chose which we both enjoyed. Fairly nice evening. We spent the night in the same bed - but every touch from my side, be it on purpose or by accident, triggered a very defensive "go away" mechanism. No surprise, in the morning, no 'good morning', no hug, nothing but coldness. So I started the day once more lonely and pretty depressed. Then, I took out daughter for the whole day, to have a swim and to do some ice skating. I didn&#8217;t answer WW's calls. BIG MISTAKE - when we got home, she was super-p***ed. My fault, I know. I deliberately excluded her, as I wasn&#8217;t getting anything from her. That's exactly the sort of destructive behaviour, which is bad, I know, but at that point I just couldn&#8217;t help it. Why did I do it then? I guess, I just couldn&#8217;t care anymore.

So, we were up for a v. heated discussion Sunday night. Among all the hurtful things she said
- I asked, if she wasn&#8217;t afraid that she would lose me - to which she answered, she didn&#8217;t care. To the contrary, she wishes me all the best in my "next relationship"
- She feels "dragged down" by me, that I'm "sucking her dry like a vampire", that emotionally "she always gave everything and got nothing in return"
- She wants to get away from me, with daughter, wants to move to other country [away from London, to place where I grew up] - maybe we will find together again, if she/I find some other partner in the mean time "then so be it", that I just should "accept reality"
- I was emotionally immature and destroyed her emotionally over time that "I pushed her into an affair, which was wrong per se, but it was right to leave me"
- She airbrushed our past quite a bit, especially with regard to me being a father (she accepts that I am doing a good job now, especially since D-Day&#8230; not that I have changed that much actually - it's just that now she seems to notice!)
- In terms of commitment of going forward, she didn&#8217;t give any, said that "she told everything to me and MC, there's nothing to add"
- Plus re-iterated on all the past instances where "I have let her down"
All told, I was so hurt like the day of D-day - I barely slept tonight :-(
I was telling her that I the reason why I am hurt so much is that she has become part of my life, that I still had feelings for her, that this is what makes it so hard for me. To which she replied, well, there's the difference then, 'cause she stopped 'having feelings' for me a long time ago already.

Today then we chatted as usual on the phone
- She asked about me organising the plane tickets for our winter break (????)
- She organised us a Christmas Eve with close friends (???)
- Said she wants to take a time-out from MC during December, as "Christmas is special season, and we shouldn't spoil it " (??????)

OK, so here we are. FACT - she wants out of our marraige. FACT - I'm the only here who wants to save the marriage (but sometimes revert back to the old tit for tat game too). FACT - WW is very bitter, especially at me, and I don&#8217;t understand where I am and what is being played here - especially if I'm getting such a cold/hot water treatment.

Maybe you guys get it, because I don&#8217;t.

Hi Nick,

I seem to be racing all over this board today, as a lot of people have had rather awful weekends - myself included.

OK, you know the facts, but you also know that WW is going to MC - which she flat out refused before, and is making arrangements for your future. That is not someone preparing to leave and walk out the door. However, this is doing you no favours because it just seems contradictory.

I think perhaps that whilst she is in withdrawal, she is unable to recommit to you. Nick, if she wanted to end it she would have gone by now, but she just can't recommit yet. This has gone on for a long time for you, realistically how much longer do you think you can give her? I think you may need to set yourself a timeline, and tell her. "I understand that you are XYZ, but I love you and want to save our M, but I can't wait forever. I'd like to give ourselves X amount of C sessions, and until X date for us both to decide whether or not we can make our M work".

Nick, I read some interesting stuff that Kily was saying over on Hopeful Person's thread. She was saying how she always assumed her XBF would be there for her whatever, and how she compartmentalised bits of her life. Kily is like me, a former WS, and it really struck a chord with me. I think your W thinks the same - you'll always be there for her, irrespective of all the negative things she says about you, and all the terrible things she thinks you have done to her.

Hold tight and chin up Nick. Wishing you well from north of the river.

Lisa

Yes, I think Lisa is right. I think your W has not faced the reality of what she wants. It is all fantasy, the fantasy of running off to another country with your daughter and forgetting all her troubles.

She actually got a dose of that reality on Sunday and she didn't like it one bit. Imagine that you were divorced from W, and you picked up your daughter for Sunday visitation, telling your W you would be back by 5. Let's say you were taking D for an outing with your new fiance. Your exW calls, and maybe you don't accept her calls, reasoning that it's your time with D and you don't want to spend it talking to exW. Well, in effect, that happened on Sunday. That's what divorce would be like. Your W would be excluded.

That said, you should have answered her calls. Not doing so only adds fuel to the fire. Just remember the goose and gander rule. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If W had D, and you needed to contact her, you'd be upset if she refused your calls. Different from, bad cell signal, your call didn't come through. So although it's difficult, try to treat W as you would want her to treat you.

Your wife's plan for the future indicates to me that deep down she doesn't want divorce. I know Harley's method of MC- he actually discourages talking about the past and rehashing all the rights and wrongs. He creates a plan for the future. How can each spouse make each other feel good? Actually some of what WW is planning falls into that. So it might be a good idea to try to have a nice Xmas season together.

Hi Lisa, looks we are all having one of these weekends, isn't it. With regard to the timeframe, it's not so clear cut. There are times when I'm upbeat and think that I can handle it for another year or two. Then there are times, when I'm down and think, that this is the last straw. The point is, when I give her a time frame with an assessment at the end then I fear she will simply say, "fine, why don&#8217;t we just split now", or "I can tell you the answer already now" or something along these lines. Yes, she goes to MC (another session tomorrow, then nada until Jan), but I think to make MC sessions really work, you need to bring with you something like a commitment to change and a willingness to forgive and understand...? Maybe she does think that at the end of the day, I'll be always there for her. That's why the comment about "well, if I move, then she wouldn&#8217;t care" was so hurtful.
As said, I find MC sessions a bit problematic where there is no communality in goals. I want to go there to *make it work*, she wants to *go, talk, see, and then maybe take a committment*.

Vice versa, if she really would leave me, I would find that incredibly tough on me and I somehow have enorm difficulties with the concept of a "mutually agreed divorce" where, facilitated by a jolly MC, we would happily split everything and continue to be friends. Call me emotionally immature, but I just wont accept such a situation. When it's over, it will be over, and I will not ever talk to her again. Call that the Swiss granite in my head, but that's the way I feel. Best regards, Nick

Nick 123-

I'm sorry to hear that your MC sessions haven't been everything you would have hoped for but remember you're fortunate to be in there with your WW at all. It must be frustrating for you to be willing to make some major changes and not have your WW on board like she needs to be. Hang in there though as it sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

L in L's point about your WW taking you for granted is definitely something to be considered. I can see where she would fall into the habit of taking all of your efforts/actions for granted. My WW has told me as much and that worries me more than anything. The question becomes, how can one make the WS realize potential consequences without LB'ing? Good luck with everthing!

Espoir,

<strong>
I know Harley's method of MC- he actually discourages talking about the past and rehashing all the rights and wrongs. He creates a plan for the future. How can each spouse make each other feel good? Actually some of what WW is planning falls into that. So it might be a good idea to try to have a nice Xmas season together.
</strong>

Absolutely agree - I want to move on, she keeps on looking back and (in hindsight, sometimes rightly) identifying all my actions which were wrong.
During our talk yesterday I asked her exactly the question you suggested - tell me, what would make you happy? what would make you feel better? answer@ "I dont know" and "I dont want to tell you" and "leave me in peace" and "I dont want you
to help me, becausae you cant".

I take that for a no.

Litchfield,

<strong>
The question becomes, how can one make the WS realize potential consequences without LB'ing?
</strong>

yep! I think that's where harley's plan A/B comes into play. plan B is really also about giving a taste of potential things to come. will any WS like it? of course not. but that's intended. Having said that, do "try and give a taste" before a solid plan B is a mistake I beleive. that's just a tit for tat game which is destructive.

We never got past the "What do you want to get out of this MC?" question.

After 3 sessions of getting anything except *reconciliation* from my W, the counselor dropped us. ~ "This will be our last session." ~
We wanted different outcomes.

He recommended that we see a divorce mediator.
Maybe he saw no hope. Maybe he wanted us to face the reality of DV.

We got another counselor.

Nick -- I'm not swiss but I also have a head of granite sometimes. From your posts it seems that your WW is still confused. She is still dwelling on the past in MC. Is there any way to raise the issue in your next MC session that you want to focus on the future?

That said, it seems that during the A and during withdrawal (which is the stage your WW seems to be in right now), the WS is still unsure what they want and what the best course of action will be for them. I imagine that they are scared and are trying to make themselves feel better by making things seem worse than they are -- now that certainly seems counter-intuitive, but is fairly common.

I think in your case you are having a difficult time being patient at this stage. Your WW has apparently ended the A and you wonder why she isn't jumping into reconcilation and restoration with both feet and enthusiastically. I think that this stage may require the most patience and the most grace on the part of the BS. Before (during the A) your WW wasn't really seeing and hearing your changes and actions. Now that she has ended the A she can START to see them.

I also believe that somewhere deep in her being she does want to try. If she didn't she would have taken some other kind of action such as filing for a D or moving out, etc. It is hard to be positive when you've been plan A for so long, but try and view it as another stage and that you are starting the clock again with each stage.

Easy for me to dispense advice. I'm not sure I did any of this well and am in plan B. I know that my impatience doesn't help sometimes.

I don't know Nick. That's pretty difficult to deal with.

In this whole time, I've often felt that your wife will only wake up when she sees that she is losing you. And then it might be too late.

I know when my H was waffling, Plan A helped him reconnect a bit, remember the good things about me and our family. But it was the prospect of Plan B that was the force that made him change. It was only when I put my foot down.

I went to stay at my sister's for one night- I said "I can no longer live with a liar and a cheat". It galvanized him to fly to her city and break it off with her.

there was continued contact, and when I found out, I put his suitcase on the bed, and phoned a motel for a reservation. He stopped contact.

He was in withdrawal for quite some time- I was Plan Aing as best I could. Despite a deep depression. Finally I went to spend a week with my sister, bringing 2 of my kids with me. I was really starting to lose hope and faith, I was ready to give up. When I came home, there was alot more effort on his part. (And my H, even early on, has been very remorseful compared to your wife. He has held me when I cried, he has told me the A was a terrible mistake, that the OW can't hold a candle to me, that she's a liar and he has no respect for her.)

Whenever I tolerate the bad behavior it tends to continue. When I put my foot down is when I see it improve.

WS want to negotiate what works for them. "I want to leave you for OM, take D with me, and of course we'll still be friends" "I don't want you, I despise you, I don't want to be with you or work on our R, but I still want you to be nice to me, to plan stuff with me when I'm in a good mood, to have Xmas together, and by the way, don't exclude me when you do stuff with D....."

It's when the BS starts putting their foot down in the negotiations that the tune starts to change. The Orchid reverse babble is indispensable. "It saddens me that you have decided our marriage is without hope, and you don't want to be with me. What are your plans for the future? When are you moving out?" OR it might be "Since you don't want our marriage, you must move out. I've booked a hotel for you to stay in until you find an apartment. Here's your suitcase."

I don't think life would be very comfortable without you. Financial worries, either being a single mom with D, or losing custody of D- neither is very appealing.

<strong>
In this whole time, I've often felt that your wife will only wake up when she sees that she is losing you. And then it might be too late.
</strong>

<strong>Espoir</strong>, that's a key statement, and maybe you are right. You know, I put the foot down, solidly so, during plan A and WW maintaining contact.. with a good result. I could do that v. credibly, as I just couldn&#8217;t take it any more, and definitely would have left. Now, I don&#8217;t know whether the situation might be a bit different. OM is out of the picture, it's just her and me. She is hurting me, very much so, but is leaving/or threat to go to plan B making a difference? <strong> Unsureheart </strong>I think is right to say that *now* is the time to get these LU's deposited. I mean, at least as long as I sensibly can. But it is difficult! But at least I shall try.
Yesterday for instance, when we were sorting out the travel plans for our skiing vacations we agreed to stay a night at my sisters'. She insisted on having dinner before in a restaurant and not accept her hospitality&#8230;. For the simple reason, I suspect, so she can offend her, and yours truly in the process. I told her what I thought, but she just keeps on doing these things.

Also, you write yourself that "...then it might be too late". That's what makes it slightly tricky, isn&#8217;t it.

Today we'll have another session @ MC. Let's see....

Many thanks for staying tuned. Update to follow.

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

After I wrote that, I felt a bit guilty. You have been amazingly patient, and I admire that alot. And I do think you need to be really secure in your plan A.

With my H though, I did have to put my foot down after the affair ended, too. For about 5-7 months, he enjoyed my plan A while putting forth little effort towards recovery. He was not really a participant in our MC, the few small things I asked him to do to help me get over it- he didn't do. It was only when I went to spend time at my sister's- not a separation- that his level of effort went up. He knew though that I was getting to the end of my rope, and that scared him.

Eventually your wife will have to face that she has to do some of the work in the marriage. She has be loving and affectionate, can't be full of hate and resentment towards you. Your marriage has to last another 40 or 50 odd years, so now's the time to work this out.

Having said what I said however, now may not be the time to draw those boundary lines. She is in withdrawal, and you may need some time to bond with her.

Re your sister's. Maybe it's best to let that pass graciously. POJA it. It's good that your W wants to have dinner just the 2 of you- make it fun and enjoyable. Re the dinner: You say "you told her what you thought". Just make sure to keep it respectful.

There are so many variables here. Maybe your W wants a special night out, doesn't want to spend it with your family, because that's what you always do. Maybe she doesn't like your sister. But the important thing is to discuss respectfully and POJA. To soften hurt feelings when you arrive at sister's, perhaps you bring a gift, and say, forgive us, we so desperately need a romantic night out. Maybe this is your wife's way of testing you. If she feels you put sister first, she's insisting you put her first. You need to determine some ground rules you both can agree on for contact with sister. Don't get offended. Approach your wife asking for her ideas, and point of view. Gather the information, and DON'T respond. DON'T press your point. Just give her a chance to express herself. Then say, I appreciate your feedback, let me digest this a bit. DON'T react or get angry even if she says things that anger you.

Thanks Espoir - easier said than done!! You don&#8217;t have to feel bad, by the way, not at all! Your advice has been tremendously helpful in the past, really. The key thing, as you very rightly point out, is to start properly communicating, especially emotions & feelings. Here's the *big* area where we lacked skill, experience and results. This became also painfully obvious in today's MC session.

I agree with you that you had to make yourself heard in your relationship. And it worked. But as mentioned, the challenge in our relationship is currently to break the confrontational cycle we are in:

MC observed and analysed how we communicate: wife is loud, powerful and angry, and I pull back&#8230;. Which doesn&#8217;t solve the problem, to the contrary, as it makes her even more frustrated, loud, powerful and angry. Hmmmm. Not rocket science is it. I believe I self-diagnosed that at some point a couple of months ago on this board. WW even admitted "that she became a monster" (which is the first time I heard her for a long time saying something critical about herself)

However, what to do about it is less straightforward. I think I know where to start, what to do, but getting always another one on the head makes it tough. I know, it takes *two* to tango, also *two* to engage in this merry-go-round of blame, anger, counter-blame and counter-anger. But: I look myself in the mirror and can honestly say, that at least since D-Day (but, as a matter of fact longer), I have gone to great lengths to break that destructive cycle. But it seems to me that whenever I reach out to my wife, try to find common ground, try to empathise, try to help, I'm being rejected. OK - some attempts might be clumsy, some others may not be helpful, some other times I couldn&#8217;t bother to try in the first place, as I knew I was getting slapped again. But hey - I try! So why can&#8217;t she just *let me* try? Why can't she relax and *accept* me trying to fulfil her emotional needs? Why won't she even accept that I'm giving her a cuddle or help?

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>