V. quick update - as I (and WW too) are now more conscious about the negative dynamic of previous conversation style, we are now more careful with each other. Partly, our communicaiton is really better, partly, it's simply due to the fact that we evade confrontational things. However, yesterday we had a discussion about a typically confrontational subject (my mom), which we both managed without showing passive or active anger! Mostly, that is.
On the other hand, she still finds it difficult to accept anything positive from me. Which is tough, especially as yesterday was my birthday. But I think I should just take it on the chin and focus on continuing to be nice to her... chipping slowly away all that ice around her heart.

Does that make sense, or do you think I'm on the wrong track/not doing something enough?

Nick 123-

To me, it sounds like you're on the right path so keep it up.

I know what you mean when you mentioned how difficult it was to (a)understand the dynamic of her anger and your passiveness and (b) to make the necessary changes to stop the cycle. It's just my opinion, but I think your consistency and willingness to suffer AND change will pay dividends for you. Good luck and keep us posted!

thanks litchfield. maybe I'm just one of these sad [censored] with a masochist trait, who knows :-

Nick, I'm so sorry that you are going through such a bad time with WW. I know you have been working at this for months but it sounds as if WW is only just starting to open the box and there is a heck of a lot in there to deal with. I think in some ways she is testing you-seeing how far she can push you ,maybe in an attempt to find safe ground with you? I agree with L in L and others-she has had plenty of opportunity to leave and yet is still there-and going to MC! I suppose she is still in withdrawal. I also agree that she sounds as if she basically doesn't believe that you would leave and that therefore it is a choice for her and her alone.
If you are strong enough, go with it for a bit longer and resist responding even when she hits you with sme heavy stuff-pretty rich coming from me I know after earlier this week with my WH but I am sure it is the right way to go.
Raining again here-maybe just as well with no Fire Service!
Be strong!
Regards,
Deluded

Thanks D in D, and everybody else who chips in on this thread,

You are right: The facts are:
- she hasnt moved out
- we started MC
- OM is out of the picture
So far so good!

But fact is also: She still throws in the odd wobble which make me question everything, or rather: which derails my enthusiasm for 'making it work' swiftly, thoroughly and completely. Examples:
- she has read a book about different personality types and starts conversations like "you know, here's another reason why we dont fit together: in the book it says .. bla bla .. ". how does that make me feel, when I'm trying my best at the same time?
- separate beds, no affection, no s*x, no good mornings, no good nights... nothing, nada, niente.
- says things like "I think I'll go home to <her home country> in december". Apart from the fact that each trip costs about 2k$, that at the same time I will look after our daughter AND work full time, apart from the fact that I think we need to solve problems here together, that we have an MC programme on going, apart from the fact that OM might be in the region there at the same time, what a terrific idea!!

At the same time she gives me super-foggy statements like the following:

Statement A: "You were never there for me, you didnt help me"
After which I gently point out the 100 odd action points by which I have helped her in the past and now. And, acknowledged that in hindsight there were instances where my actions could have been seen as 'letting her down' (but, this certainly wasnt done on purpose from my side).
Statement B: "Of course it's true and you help now, but by helping you make it only worse and I lose energy to do something myself".

Hmmmm... run this logic past me again, please? So it's "damn if I do, damn if I dont" for me, right??

Another classic of hers is the following interpretation of events: When we met, she was always accomodating my wishes. Since then, she has "liberated herself" and "grown". Now, I can't cope with her as she has grown personally so much.

... Interesting interpretation of events. I told her she is confusing freedom with being hurtful on purpose.

As mentioned before, she keeps on saying things like "she needs to stand on her own feet now" (she never had a job in her life). To which I reply - sure, great, how can I help... But for her, having a job and staying together with me seem to be mutually exclusive concepts??

This is sort of a re-occurring theme, you know, that she simply *cant* and *doesnt want to* accept me good deeds, my help, my outreached hand. There will be the point where I will pull back, call it a day. Another 3 months or so? Then I'll have the questionable pleasure of celebrating D-Day anniversary - and will take stock. And, the D in "D-Day anniversary" will this time then stand for Decision.

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick- haven't been on line in a bit.. glad to hear that the communication is more careful. Both of you trying to avoid LBs. Although it may sound artificial at first, it is good. It is a Baby Step!

On the other hand it sounds like there is a long way to go. I feel so sad for you. Like any of us, no doubt you have your flaws, but you are making heroic efforts that your WW doesn't seem willing to respond to. I wish I could throw a bucket of cold water over her head! Some of her logic is bewildering. She can get a job and stay married, in fact it is much easier to be a married working mother than a single working mother!

Hmm- without having ever met you I can list loads of character traits of your personality that make you an excellent partner for her:

faithful, willing to self examine, willing to make an effort, willing to forgive, good provider, responsible, supportive, a believer in love and commitment, someone who likes affection, good father, intelligent, good sense of humor and finally appreciator of exotic cuisine and spicy foods! I am sure there are more good qualities that I don't know about.

Gosh, hope your wife wakes up and smells the coffee!

Hey Espoir,

Many thanks for the boost - really appreciated. Really, I draw great comfort from tha fact that somewhere I can share my thoughts with folks, and that these even understand where I am coming from! That's the power of this board, isnt it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>Like any of us, no doubt you have your flaws, but you are making heroic efforts that ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me? Nahh!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>
Gosh, hope your wife wakes up and smells the coffee!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's more of a tea person - maybe that's the reason why we cant connect.

Cheers
N

Hey Nick

Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of hummour!

I know what you mean about coming to MB - it's been such a source of comfort, inspiration, insight and friendship to me, even though we don't know each other!! I wouldn't have survived some of the incidents over the last few months without being here.

Espoir is right, you're doing a wonderful job (wish my H was trying like you are), and although you're not perfect, you've got some sound qualities.

I can imagine how frustrating it must be when your W goes off on a tangent with all these things she says. Remember, she's still in withdrawal and probably being a bit foggy, well very foggy. I think I have to go back to whether you can set yourself a time limit. I know that sometimes you feel you could carry on indefinitely, but other times you could pack it in now. I think it's also about your wellbeing and whether or not you want to carry on indefinitely. Maybe give it some thought....

Anyway take care Nick and wishing you well from sunny North London.

Lisa

My WH and I are attending joint MC now. When the A came to light H agreed to counseling but only IC. Now he is willing to do JC but the question of "what do we want the outcome to be" hasn't been answered either. I want reconcilliation but my H isn't ready or willing to commit to that goal. So the MC says that the purpose of us working through our communication and other issues is so that 1)we will definitely be able to co-parent together better, 2) we will probably learn things about ourselves that will help us with relationships romantic or otherwise in the future, and 3)we will possibly be able to reconstruct our marriage.

I think this is a pretty smart tactic on the MC's part. While I, like you, am not all that interested in maintaining a friendship or amicable relationship in the event of a D, I think that putting our MCing in this context helps to not "scare off" my H (who is still continuing the A, by the way) and allows him to see that I am hearing his complaints about our marriage and that I am trying to change the things that "caused him so much pain and made him feel so alone." Also we are seperated, so this is really the only serious "talk time" that we have and it's good to have the mediation of the counselor.

All that being said, yes, it feels like we are shouldering much more than our share and I, like you, feel like my H beleives that I will always be there. In fact, I almost feel like he is taking a "break" from marriage but that he intends to come back. (His break happens to coincide with my pregnancy and birth of our second child - nice huh?)

I don't know. I guess I haven't been very helpful but just wanted you to know that I know what you're talking about. These spouses all seem to act so scarily similar.

Sorry to hear your story, dueinjan. to leave your pregnant wife to engage in an affair, that's just sooo cruel! How long is the A ongoing? I mean, could it be a reaction to your pregnancy? (Men may find it difficult to have their s*xual need, their #1 EN mostly, fulfilled during this period... and for the first couple of months after the birth). Suggest that your number one goal of the process now is to get WH to stop the A, and to stop contact.

Lisa,
<strong>
I can imagine how frustrating it must be when your W goes off on a tangent with all these things she says. Remember, she's still in withdrawal and probably being a bit foggy, well very foggy. I think I have to go back to whether you can set yourself a time limit. I know that sometimes you feel you could carry on indefinitely, but other times you could pack it in now. I think it's also about your wellbeing and whether or not you want to carry on indefinitely. Maybe give it some thought....
</strong>

Thanks for your view. Sorry to sound like an old vinyl with a defect... I keep on posting the same ol' grievances and stories again and again, don&#8217;t I. WW still in withdrawal?? I mean, we're in month 9 after D-day, and month 3 after contact stopped with OM. I know these things don&#8217;t happen over night, but cooooome ooon.
I agree with your time limit idea thing - and I think of a couple of milestones over the coming mongths to see how things pan out (and to take decisions accordingly): End of this year (to see how whether family vacation will change anything or not), then D-Day anniversary in March. I'm still more or less fine in terms of staying sane... only when I'm depressed and full of self-pity the lows are getting lower and lower - you see what I mean? (Along the lines of: jeeez, haven't I deserved better?? Why do I endure this??)

Anyway, thank's guys!!

DUURH - HELLOOOOOO - you and me both friend!!!!!!!

Nick, if we didn't have each other's miserable stories, we wouldn't be able to feel better about ourselves would we <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sometimes, I think the same (except this mega weekend of course), it's just the same old same old. Me trying in my own way, H distancing himself, being hurt and angry and not wanting to address things. Me still missing OM, and hating myself for that and a hundred and one other reasons.....

Nick, there is some movement for you, albeit it small, but some of the other stuff needs to start shifting and changing too, because there's only so much one person can take. I guess that's what happened to me too this weekend. I really can't take anymore of the verbals, something has to change.

As you say, when you have your holiday and d-day these are things that may change the pace a bit.

Got to dash, meant to be at the post office.

Take care.

Lisa

Hi Nick. Your W sounds so ambivalent. The withdrawal can go on for up to 6 months from what I have read. Is she on antidepressants? Just a thought , but could she be in contact with OM indirectly,via a friend or family member, perhaps feeding back to her how he feels and contributing to her volatile hurtful behaviour?
I hope not . Sorry to raise it. It just seems to me that you are still at stalemate.

Regards from cold wet dull grey Devon

Deluded

hi there, I truly hope for my sanity's sake that you're wrong on both accounts, i.e. re contact with OM (even indirectly) or with regard to the stalemate. But then again, you could be right of course. at leasat we got some professional help now, so some movement can be expected. I really dont think she's in contact with OM any more - I still have a close eye on both and dont pick up any signals. regards from lovely sunny london, N

She's still in the fog.

She may have intractable anger problems- hard to say. Some people just don't know how to treat other people.

She's still in withdrawal. And we know withdrawal can go on for a long time.

MC can help alot. She can learn from it- if you have a good counselor.

Her wakeup call will be when she realizes that, with the way she is treating you, she may or will lose you. That will either cause her to change, or not.

Stay strong.

Hi Nick.
To answer your question. Yes, I think my pregnancy had something to do with my H's affair but not necessarily for the reasons you mentioned (our s. life wasn't going that great any way - in fact it's amazing that I actually am pregnant). I think it has more to do with the fact that he felt like (I'm finding out now) that his life was taking him in directions that he hadn't choosen (this pregnancy was unexpected and unintended). He felt like I was always in the driver's seat, his opinions were ignored and that he was unappreciated. H met someone younger, not pregnant and fun who fed his ego and his self-image (she's married though). They were discovered their very first night together by her husband 8/02 (they had only just met 3 weeks earlier). Since then, he moved out and I know that there is contact but I don't know to what extent. I'm trying to do a good Plan A after a failed first attempt at Plan A (lots of LBing) and a premature attempt at Plan B.

You're right though, the fact that I am pregnant has been an extra cruel aspect to this already unbearable situation and certainly hasn't helped my H in the popularity department. (We have a 2.5 YO too). I am fortunate to have a lot of friends and family nearby and have hired a doula (a lady who helps you through labor and delivery).

When the A was discovered (quite dramatically)I ranted and raved and called the OW every name in the book (I hadn't obviously read the MB book yet). The thing that kills me to this day is that my H defended her, said he needed to see her because she was very "upset" and he needed to make sure she was ok (I'm obviously chopped liver) and said that if he didn't think she was a "kind and decent person he wouldn't have been in the position that he was in." WHAT "KIND AND DECENT PERSON" SLEEPS WITH A MAN WHO SHE KNOWS HAS A PREGNANT WIFE??? AND WHO IS MARRIED HERSELF???

Any way. I'm know I'm off topic here. Thanks for letting me vent. I'm doing me best to be mature and adult and try to save our marriage. Both for our sakes and for that of our children. And, besides, it's not like I'm passing by any dating opportunities at this point - eight mos. pregnant is not really the ideal time to date. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Had a frank and good talk with WW yesterday. I think I can confirm now that WW is really in withdrawal. At least, that's what I conclude based on a few things she said. Some of the things she said hurt quite, especially when I told her, I still had 'warm feeling' for her, she replied, she didn&#8217;t, full stop. (Ouch) That really loved OM (Whammm!). And, the coup de grace - The affair ("don&#8217;t call it an affair - it was more" [??]) started end of 99 [Arghhhhh!]. Also, she dared to compare me to a friend of a friend, who's basically an old, fat, boring moron. Thank you for the compliment. (But at least I pointed out the subtle differences between him and me, and we actually laughed about it. Sort of.)
She again re-iterated that "she cant love me and she cant accept my love as long as she doesn&#8217;t love herself" and in order to do that "she sometimes feels she needs to go away and stand on her own legs" (ie, get a job, be independent from me). I sort of follow her logic up to a point, but why this cant be done together with me is a bit, well, foggy. There's a grain of truth in that in the eyes of her family she is seen as "Nick123's wife" (well, that's a cultural thing I suppose as well as they think that I'm someone special), and interestingly, with her friends as well. WW used to be quite famous in her country, people would know her on the street and stuff. Now, she's "just Nick123's wife", having "given up her career so I can have mine". At least, that's how she perceives herself. Again, interestingly I think of her being the stronger of us in many respects&#8230; but that might actually not be the case&#8230;? She sort of feels, maybe not dominated / dwarfed, but at least say that I'm standing her in the sun in certain respects. Maybe with OM it was indeed easier, as he's basically a whiny little pr**k who she could punch, kick, manipulate and domesticate easily.
Anyway, this feeling of 'having to go away& doing something' comes apparently only in "waves" and isn&#8217;t constantly there. I just re-read what I have written above. I still think it as a good talk, as both avoided LBing, and we definitely are making progress on the communications front. I do see changes in the way *she* communicates and behaves at least, but she says that "you Nick123 apparently learn a lot from MC" ( her hard head again not admitting that *she's* actually the main one being straightened out here in the process). Similarly, she was v. complementary about my parenting ability - *since March (d-day)*. Personally, I don&#8217;t think I have changed big time in this respect - simply, she started to notice! Before, whatever I did was just wrong or ignored. That made my life such a hell during her A (since end of 1999&#8230;.. geeez!). At the end, she was v. friendly, this morning too. Friendly, not tender. Still working on that one&#8230;but her attitude has nudged again by a few millimetres in the right direction.

Thanks for listening & staying tuned.

Nick

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick -- I haven't been posting much or reading much either. I was encouraged for you in your most recent post in that you felt as if the conversation was better and more friendly. I hope that the MC can continue to help you through these conversations and your WW's withdrawal stage.

I'm sure you're not an old fat and boring moron (at least we here on MB know that you're not boring or a moron). Those things hurt I know, but it's just WW trying to make herself feel better about her past bad decisions.

Take care. Keep posting.

Nick,

just cathcing up. It's really great that you are able to view your conversation with your W as positive - shows how positive you are. And I think you are right. However garbled people's feelings are during a period like this, at least she now appears to be telling you honestly what her feelings are. Of course they are going to be contradictory and confusing but at least she is opening up to you.

A friend of ours (one of the few who knows about my W's A) said about my W "she doesn't know her [censored] from her elbow at the moment"

It's so true - and my W and I have laughed about this since. She is very confused - but she at least realises this and also that the situation can't go on in cofusion for ever. But I would prefer that she takes the time to work out her confusion rather than just throwing in the towel right now. Why? Because although that would be easy right now for both of us it would benefit neither of us in the long term.

Sorry - didn't mean to hijack your thread - but keep going and stay positive - oh and keep your sense of humour <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> your comments are always the ones that make me smile and lift my spirits.

USH - thanks for checking in. yes, communication WAS getting better; had a severe backlash though on Sunday. More below. You write
"but it's just WW trying to make herself feel better about her past bad decisions"
Yes, good point. But again, it's her deriving satisfaction (?) whilst I am getting shafted in the process&#8230; not a sustainable and forward-looking conflict resolution process, or is it.

BOWD - Thanks for the encouragement. I hear you saying: Wow, she throws dirt in your face and you still manage to see the silver lining? Well, well, if I repeat it often enough, then I start to believe it, you know! The power of positive thinking and all that. I can confirm the confusion re [censored] & elbow you mentioned. You also write "But I would prefer that she takes the time to work out her confusion rather than just throwing in the towel right now". Fair point - but every of us, WS included, has just so much petrol in the tank. There's just so much you can take and swallow - sometimes, when too painful, calling it a day does sound like a more attractive option. This line of thinking I discover not only in myself, but in many other stories on this board here too.

OK&#8230; an then there was last Sunday. MC gave us some homework to do, a nice one actually. We were supposed to think about the *good* qualities which we found attractive in each other when we met. Also, we should think about how these qualities have changed, if at all, and how we see this today. And we should take time to discuss this. Which we did&#8230;. But it all went wrong.
I started by telling WW what I felt at that time, how I feel now with regard to her qualities. She barely acknowledged it, and started with her side. Which, essentially, boiled down to "I was a normal, fairly nice chap" (how's that for a compliment, uh?). After having ticked off my "good" qualities like that, she engaged into the usual huge rant about mistake X I did 10 years ago, how family member Y allegedly mistreated her 8 years ago, my fault Z which showed up 5 years ago, la-di-la-di-la. This just ground me down, nicely & slowly. My attempts to block this kind of blame game were ignored and I just felt like a punching ball. With the predictable result that I barely could sleep and was feeling like having touched rock bottom the day after. I already saw myself packing my bags in the very near future, as this sort of living together (rather - existing/barely surviving, not living) just grinds me down completely. And please, don&#8217;t tell me about her having to move out etc etc (funny that, I was giving the same advice someone else!) as when I'm done, I'll be done, and just walk.

&#8230; And today? She calls me, crying. Says, she has seen a TV programme where husbands were telling an audience how they are being mistreated by their wives; she said she realizes (now) how much she was hurting me, is hurting me, how badly she was treating me, she looks at me and she says she knows how good a person I am, how much better than anyone else, and that it hurts even more as she sees how I am reacting to all of it (ie., largely by smiling, showing the other cheek, and showing empathy - plan A in short). She says, tried to be someone else, who she actually is not; she was always pressed into such a pattern early on and that she is full of guilt and shame. She cannot comprehend how cruel she is, was to me, given that I am such a good person etc etc. She also says that whatever her decision will be, it wont be against me [??] and that she is different, and that I "deserve" someone else who is better to me [??] and that we were very, very different.

Hmmmm&#8230;. Need a fog-translator (anyone?) for the last part, but essentially, the fog may have lifted a bit as she saw what she actually did. Actually, it was the first time since D-day, when she lifted her guard a bit and actually admitted that: yes, it was wrong and I feel shameful.

Progress? Maybe. But why do I always have to go to hell and back to achieve another inch of progress?

Gotta dash. Thanks for listening. All views appreciated. Stay tuned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>Need a fog-translator (anyone?) for the last part, but essentially, the fog may have lifted a bit as she saw what she actually did.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep that ol Guilt anvil came crashing down on her head temporarily, and realisation struck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Progress? Maybe. But why do I always have to go to hell and back to achieve another inch of progress?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Progress, yes a small step. Why Hell? Well because you are the BS trying to recover your M. Much easier to run Nick, much easier. So stay the course, this is small steps, and small steps are good.

Neil.